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Destroyers are terrible...so which cruiser?

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Suicide Mike	Posted - 2009.05.12 21:38:00 - [1] Ok, a friend has started a trial account. He can fly a Cormorant now, but I have heard that Destroyers are pretty much junk. He is Caldari, but does not care which race ship he flies. Obviously Cruisers are not far off skill wise, so... My question is which Cruiser for PVE would be "best". His gunnery is marginally better than his missile skills(both are at the minimums) so doesn't matter which weapons either.
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.05.12 21:42:00 - [2] Caracal, Vexor and Arbitrator are the best newbie pve cruisers imo. Since you mention missile SP but no drone SP I'm gonna say Caracal.
Suicide Mike	Posted - 2009.05.12 21:48:00 - [3] He has no Drone sp, but his missile sp consists of Missile launcher II and Standard Missile I, lol. Would Drones be a better way to go?
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.05.12 21:50:00 - [4] Edited by: TraininVain on 12/05/2009 21:51:42 Both work very well tbh. Both have nice BC options and BS options in the long term. I'd probably suggest missiles just on the basis of how awesome the Drake (missile spewing battlecruiser) is but with focussed training either could be good options. I keep hearing how great the Dominix (drone battleship) is although I like my Raven (missile battleship). If his connection is ever prone to disconnecting on it's own definitely missiles but otherwise it's a fairly close run thing.
Suicide Mike	Posted - 2009.05.12 22:03:00 - [5] Well, crud. He doesn't want to use missles, he wants to be different(I fly a Drake). Is the Thorax a "better" ship than the Vexor? I realize that the Vexor has a larger bay(drone and cargo), but in the short term being only able to handle 3-4 drones(due to skills)...would the extra turret on the Thorax be a better way to go?
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.05.12 22:11:00 - [6] Originally by: Suicide Mike Well, crud. He doesn't want to use missles, he wants to be different(I fly a Drake). Is the Thorax a "better" ship than the Vexor? I realize that the Vexor has a larger bay(drone and cargo), but in the short term being only able to handle 3-4 drones(due to skills)...would the extra turret on the Thorax be a better way to go? I'd say no. Turrets are problematic for missions especially at lower levels. The problem basically is you get a tonne of frigates which makes turrets a bit inefficient imo. Turrets miss small stuff close in and have limited range. L1 and L2 missions have lots of small stuff that likes to orbit close in. Drones OTOH can put damage on stuff from 0 out to whatever your drone control range is regardless of which way you're flying etc. etc. They also mean you can carry anti-frigate and anti-cruiser weapons on the same ship without refitting. Rax has a bonus to medium turrets and MWD usage. Medium turrets will have "missing small stuff close in" issues. MWDs you can't use in missions anyway so in a lot of ways that's two potentially wasted bonuses from Gallente Cruiser skill. Vex OTOH has the same turret bonus but also has a drone bonus. At worst you're wasting the turret bonus. Get him to train drone skills up ASAP and fly a Vex tbh. I think I had something like this when I got my first Vex for L2s: Frigate guns, remote armor rep for drones or Drone link augmentor // afterburner, cap recharger, cap recharger // medium armor rep, membrane, membrane (change to suit damage type for mission), capacitor power relay
Suicide Mike	Posted - 2009.05.12 22:16:00 - [7] Well, he's going Vexor. Thank you for the advice, we appreciate it.
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.05.12 22:30:00 - [8] Well .... First off - Destroyers are fine for Level I missions. They chew through frigates as fast as you can lock them and with a good afterburner can easily kite them. Put 5 150mm Rail guns on your Cormorant and any Level I mission in this game is cake. Load Anti-Matter to start in case you get dumped into the middle of a mess by the mission, then AB away as you blast the rats close to you. For range, unless you've got your missile skills fully trained with Bombardment and Prjection - those 150's will outrange Standard Missiles with Iridium Ammo. And - if you foul up and lose a ship you shouldn't have lost - you'll have lost a destroyer instead of a Cruiser. You'll have plenty of opportunity to screw up and lose Cruisers once you get to Level II's which are at least paying you more money. Spend your time running Level I's building up your support skills in Destroyers - and then maybe when you start doing Level II's in Cruisers you won't lose them so often. Use the right tool for the job. Destroyers are the ships best fit to run Level I missions. Get their agro, let them chase you and them blow them up with your 150mm's as you kite them along. The rats in level I's have mostly short range guns and wont' be able to touch you - unless you get webbed. For the mission with the stasis tower - blow it up first. Now then ... if you're more concerned with *Excitement* than losing ships ... fit blasters on a Thorax and dive right into them. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools
Suicide Mike	Posted - 2009.05.12 22:37:00 - [9] Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Now then ... if you're more concerned with *Excitement* than losing ships ... fit blasters on a Thorax and dive right into them. Hmmm... That sounds fun, what do the races tank? I mean, I know that Caldari are shield tankers(passive or active0, what are the others? Do Amarr armor tank?
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.05.12 22:49:00 - [10] Thing with destroyers is you may as well just hop in a cruiser. The gap in ISK and skills is tiny. As soon as you've put any effort at all into being in a dessie you could've been in a cruiser. Also medium blasters have tracking issues with small fast stuff orbiting close.

Marine HK4861 Caldari Radical Technologies	Posted - 2009.05.12 23:20:00 - [11] Originally by: Suicide Mike That sounds fun, what do the races tank? I mean, I know that Caldari are shield tankers(passive or active0, what are the others? Do Amarr armor tank? Depends on the ship bonus and the slot layout of the ship. More lows than mediums generally mean an armour tank. More mediums than lows generally mean a shield tank. That said, Gallente and Amarr ships tend towards armour tanks, Caldari ships tend to be shield tankers and Minmatar ships are split between the two.
Laeris Evanstar Amarr Petals of Derketo	Posted - 2009.05.13 04:22:00 - [12] Ya, Amarr are armor tankers as are most gallente. However...gallente can be shield tanked in many cases since for the most part, per the class they have more medium slots than Amarr ships do. So, I've seen some setups where people will gimp-rig a gallente Bs for a shield tank (albeit, not a very good shield tank), then they'll stack the heck out of damage mods on the lows and use things like capacitor power relay modules on the lows as well to boost recharge. Amarr, are solid armor tanks on almost every ship they have. Most Amarr don't even fit a shield booster. Gallente are mostly armor tanks but they can shield tank some if they want to...they do have some slots to play with. Caldari, like Amarr, are specialists but they are shield tankers. And, Minmatar are a mix between the two. Take the Hurricane and Cyclone Battlecruisers. The Cyclone is a shield tank with a bonus to shield boost amount. The Hurricane is an armor tank. "Not your typical Roleplayer"
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.05.13 05:40:00 - [13] Originally by: TraininVain Thing with destroyers is you may as well just hop in a cruiser. The gap in ISK and skills is tiny. As soon as you've put any effort at all into being in a dessie you could've been in a cruiser. . This was exactly what I thought when I skipped destroyers and went straight to Cruisers. Then, after getting some Cruisers blown up for no good reason ... I started using destroyers to blow up frigates and haven't lost a one. Part of the problem with being a new person who easily gets into a Cruiser is - you don't know what the ** you are doing. You're sailing about in a ship that is much to big for the skills you have and worst of all - you get an un-warranted impression of the power and majesty of your Cruiser. Then you do something you shouldn't do and get it blown up. Make your mistakes - you will make them - in something cheap. Sure, a T1 Cruiser is cheap compared to a Battleship but it is expensive for a new player getting their income from Level I missions. THE most common rookie mistake in EVE is going up in ship size before you are ready**. People think that bigger is better and only learn to their sorrow how very wrong they are. Level I missions require minimal weapons skills - so what you should be skilling while doing your Level I missions - is your support skills. Then - when you get into your Cruiser and run Level II's - you'll have some moderately decent Cap, CPU, Power Grid, Shield and Armor skills - and maybe won't get your shiny new Cruiser blown up so easily. It isn't getting into a Cruiser once that is hard for a new person - it is replacing them ... then replacing them again ... and again ... because they didn't know what they were doing, had a farce for a tank and kept getting them blown up. After I put away the cruisers I was using as a new person and went to destroyers ... when I came back ... I had a really good laugh at how I had fitted those Cruisers. I had no idea what I was doing. All in all ... I'm surprised I didn't lose more than I did. Oh ... and for those who obviously didn't get it - that bit about the Blaster Armmed Thorax diving into the midst of a bunch of mission rats ... was not a serious recommendation but rather a "do this and you'll learn why not to do things like this" comment. You want to Kite your Level I and II rats - not dive into the midst of them. They are crappy little ships with powerful short range weapons. The solution to lots of crappy little ships with short range weapons that want to swarm you - is to kite them. Destroyers are faster than cruisers. Thus, they can more easily outrun the swarms of crappy little frigates and take them out from beyond their weapons range. If you have a Cruiser - you can still do that - but you're ship handling needs to be a bit better to manage it. You need to know how close you can go before turning away and getting your AB's going - and how to manage your speed so you don't outrun them. With big cap eating guns on those cruisers its a lot better to really understand your Cap and have the skills trained to deal with it. I never had the cap problems on a Destroyer from the use of my own weapons that I have with Cruisers - and that is WITH my cap skills trained up. But don't listen to me - you go right ahead and fly those cruisers if you want to. If you get them blown up - I'm not the one who's going to be paying for them. Oh ... yes ... and Insurance ... I don't insure my PVE ships. I don't need to because I'm not going to get them blown up. After paying far more in insurance premiums than I ever would have paid to replace the ships I lost (not to mention the transportation problems of not being able to repackage them ...) I gave up on insuring ships. After all - there is a default insurance of 40% that is free. When you insure your ship - you're paying for levels above that. Yes - it is easy to get into big ships fast. To easy. Do it at your own peril. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools
Cyprus Black Caldari Elitist Jerks Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.05.13 08:21:00 - [14] I happen to be fond of destroyers. They're like the cheap knockoff of the swiss army knife. Versatile yet flimsy. I mostly use mine for level 1 missions and salvaging as it seems best suited for. ______________ Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2009.05.13 11:27:00 - [15] Originally by: TraininVain Thing with destroyers is you may as well just hop in a cruiser. The gap in ISK and skills is tiny. As soon as you've put any effort at all into being in a dessie you could've been in a cruiser. Also medium blasters have tracking issues with small fast stuff orbiting close. I was going to point out the error of your first paragraph, but luckily you did it yourself in the following one. Cruisers use medium weapons, which have approximately ten times worse tracking than their equivalent small weapons. Medium weapons were designed to hit cruisers and up, and in fact are meant to have trouble hitting frigates. With relatively low skills (both in terms of Motion Prediction and possibly in terms of manual piloting to reduce transversal) this will be compounded. Destroyers get very nice bonuses to small turrets, always range and often damage, tracking or even more range, so they will be able to hit frigates very well from far away. In fact they can use small weapons at similar ranges to the medium weapons; but with the better tracking they'll have no problems hitting the smaller ships. You could drop down to small guns on a turret cruiser, but then you're doing less damage than a destroyer. (The tank will be much much better of course, which could be an issue if you're not able to keep your destroyer safe through range). Destroyers are massively under-rated in general, they're excellent platforms for anti-frigate offense, so for missions where you're up against frigates they're unrivalled.
Wiseguy980	Posted - 2009.05.13 13:42:00 - [16] [Thrasher, PvE Thrasher] Capacitor Power Relay I Power Diagnostic System I Small Shield Booster I Small Capacitor Battery I Medium Shield Extender I 125mm Gatling AutoCannon I, EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon I, EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon I, EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon I, EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon I, EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon I, EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon I, EMP S Rocket Launcher I, Gremlin Rocket [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Doesn't take too long to train for and is definately a fun little ship. Chews through frigates pretty fast. I've used it solo up to lvl 2's and works well in gangs for lvl 3 and higher. of course.. for a little more training time you can go with one of Agony's pvp Destroyer gang fits... [Thrasher, Generic Wolfpack 280s] Micro Auxiliary Power Core I F-M3 Munition Inertial Suspensor Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Supplemental Scanning CPU I Stasis Webifier I 280mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP S 280mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP S 280mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP S 280mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP S 280mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP S 280mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP S 280mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP S 'Malkuth' Standard Missile Launcher I, Flameburst Light Missile [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.05.13 13:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Gartel Reiman Originally by: TraininVain Thing with destroyers is you may as well just hop in a cruiser. The gap in ISK and skills is tiny. As soon as you've put any effort at all into being in a dessie you could've been in a cruiser. Also medium blasters have tracking issues with small fast stuff orbiting close. I was going to point out the error of your first paragraph, but luckily you did it yourself in the following one. Cruisers use medium weapons, which have approximately ten times worse tracking than their equivalent small weapons. Medium weapons were designed to hit cruisers and up, and in fact are meant to have trouble hitting frigates. With relatively low skills (both in terms of Motion Prediction and possibly in terms of manual piloting to reduce transversal) this will be compounded. Destroyers get very nice bonuses to small turrets, always range and often damage, tracking or even more range, so they will be able to hit frigates very well from far away. In fact they can use small weapons at similar ranges to the medium weapons; but with the better tracking they'll have no problems hitting the smaller ships. You could drop down to small guns on a turret cruiser, but then you're doing less damage than a destroyer. (The tank will be much much better of course, which could be an issue if you're not able to keep your destroyer safe through range). Destroyers are massively under-rated in general, they're excellent platforms for anti-frigate offense, so for missions where you're up against frigates they're unrivalled. If you'd read all of what I'd wrote you'd have noticed that the the three cruisers I listed as good newbie pve boats all make efficient, bonused use of anti-frigate weapons. None of them are primarily turret boats. The Caracal has Assault Missile Launchers. These fire frigate sized missiles from launchers with bigger magazines. They are ridiculously efficient and I believe bonused. The other two ships are drone boats which don't even have to choose between anti-frig and anti-cruiser weaponry because they can carry both, at once and switch at will. I'm not saying that a dessie can't be very efficient, I'm just saying that the right cruiser can be just as efficient, more durable and be preparing you training-wise for L3s.
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.05.13 15:31:00 - [18] Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 13/05/2009 15:34:28 Using more of a tool to do a job than you need to is NOT being efficient. You will be slaughtering frigates in a destroyer as fast as you can target them. Getting a Cruiser can't improve on that. Thus - there is NO need for a Cruiser for Level I missions. You are using an overly expensive ship to do poorly paying missions for new people that don't have loads of cash. It is a mistake. As to training - as I said - you should be doing your support skills training in Engineering, Electronics, Mechanic and Navigation during your Level I missions, then about the time your status is good enough to get a good Level II agent - start training your weapons skills up - then move on into a Cruiser and do your Level II's. While you are doing your Level II's you can be training whatever skills you still need trained for Level III's. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.05.13 18:44:00 - [19] How long does it take to go from L1 missions to L2? It's all of a couple of days as far as I recall. It's not overly expensive because you then use the same ship for L2s as well. Lets also not forget that it's 1m or so for a destroyer and a whopping 4m or so for a cruiser. That really isn't a huge step. To my mind destroyers are an inefficient use of ISKs and training time because they're only really good for L1s which you can do very happily in a frigate. If you skill them up a bit then yeah you can do L2s. However you could have spent the same time skilling up a cruiser and be plug and play with a BC. It's not like the Caracal, Vexor or Arbie are particularly unforgiving of low skills either. They're not gun-boats. The weapons you're fitting to them at this point are easy to fit. The weapons we're talking about let you stay well out of harms way too so it's not a particularly stern test of your tanking ability. Destroyers are a bit of a detour imo despite you trying very hard to justify liking them. I know they've got the cool factor of loads of guns but unless you really want to guns are not the way to go for PvE
Joshua Lonestar	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 13/05/2009 15:55:27 Using more of a tool to do a job than you need to is NOT being efficient. You will be slaughtering frigates in a destroyer as fast as you can target them. Getting a Cruiser can't improve on that. Thus - there is NO need for a Cruiser for Level I missions. You are using an overly expensive ship to do poorly paying missions for new people that don't have loads of cash. It is a mistake. As to training - as I said - you should be doing your support skills training in Engineering, Electronics, Mechanic and Navigation during your Level I missions, then about the time your status is good enough to get a good Level II agent - start training your weapons skills up - then move on into a Cruiser and do your Level II's. While you are doing your Level II's you can be training whatever skills you still need trained for Level III's. Now - IF - you are already an experienced player and have to go run some Level I missions for some corporation you are trying to raise your status with - and you want to do it in a Cruiser - then it doesn't matter. By then you should have enough money to be able to afford to replace that Cruiser if you lose it - and the skills both skilled and in game - to keep that from happening. Besides - if you already have back up Cruisers and you lose one - you can just go do higher level missions for a while to get the money to replace the one you lost. Replacing a Cruiser isn't a big deal to an experienced player with reasonable reserves he can draw on to pay for it. Replacing a Cruiser to someone just starting out - who has put every last ISK he has into it to get it - is a disaster. You see people who have done this all the time, begging in local for someone to give them a million credits. Telling new people to use ships they can't afford to lose and are not really skilled enough to use properly, to run missions for which that ship is not needed, is not doing them any favors. I'd recommend a ship with growth potential even if they are a bit light in skills over getting a ship they are ready for skil wise that has virtualyl no growth potential and will quickly become wasted space in the hanger.

Bubba Zenetti	Posted - 2009.05.13 20:57:00 - [21] Originally by: Suicide Mike Ok, a friend has started a trial account. He can fly a Cormorant now, but I have heard that Destroyers are pretty much junk. He is Caldari, but does not care which race ship he flies. Obviously Cruisers are not far off skill wise, so... My question is which Cruiser for PVE would be "best". His gunnery is marginally better than his missile skills(both are at the minimums) so doesn't matter which weapons either. You really need to get your skills up for destroyers to be fun. They have sick DPS for a frigate sized ship. If your gunnery skills aren't maxed for frigate sized ships, you are wasting your time with them.
Marguerite Antiki	Posted - 2009.05.14 02:41:00 - [22] Damn - just read this an now feel out of place as I love my Catalyst. I fly it into Lvl 1, 2, 3, and 4 missions. Only cause the lvl 1 and 2s are a cakewalk for me (gun skills nicely set) and the higher level missions are with friends and I just wander in and pop all the frigates while they pop the bigger stuff. And after reading this I feel confused :P Personally - Destroyers are a great ship IMHO and should not be overlooked. But like I say, its personal opinion choice - so fly what you feel like, some may laugh at you some may applaud, but it was your choice.
Plexxy	Posted - 2009.05.14 03:25:00 - [23] Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 13/05/2009 15:55:27 Using more of a tool to do a job than you need to is NOT being efficient. You will be slaughtering frigates in a destroyer as fast as you can target them. Getting a Cruiser can't improve on that. Thus - there is NO need for a Cruiser for Level I missions. Apply this philosophy to skill points. Training up destroyer skills is a side path that will cause you to spend more SP than what you will need later. You're using a tool too big for the job, but you're doing it with your training time, not your ship. If a cruiser can kill frigates just as fast as a destroyer, then what justifies spending the extra training time?
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.05.14 14:21:00 - [24] Ah ... Fallacies Galore ... Between the argument that you can just use Frigates for Level I's and the argument that you should use Cruisers for Level I's ... I'm not sure which is more absurd. 1) Other than the Destroyers skill itself there is no extra training required over that to use a Frigate. That training time is insignificant compared to what you get out of it compared to using a frigate. There is a horrendous leap in skills required from those you need for frigates to use a Cruiser properly. Just training Destroyers I gets you a vastly better ship than a frigate - so the whole "divergent path" and "taking a hit to your long term training" type arguments are completely bogus. AND since you can use them as Salvagers even after you move on to Level II missions and get into Cruisers - they are hardly a waste of space in the hangar. If they were - then you could just freaking sell the thing like you do with any other ship that has outlived it's usefulness. 2) My guess is that all the people who jumped from frigates to cruisers never spent any time in destroyers and thus have no idea what they are talking about. They certainly have no idea what they are talking about ... I'm just assuming that that is why. To say that you can just run Level I's in a Frigate ignores the fact that destroyers are vastly more effective than frigates, especially when salvaging. Look at "When Worlds Collide" - that mission is so much faster to run and salvage with destroyers than frigates it is no comparison. Sure ... you can run all your Level I missions in a Frigate - but why would you? Unless you are just in it for the challenge - there is no reason. 3) Saying that destroyers cost a million ISK and that cruisers only cost a mere 4 million ISK is the height of absurdity. The Cruiser costs 4 times as much! If you are a new person 4 million ISK is still a good bit of money. Especially if you are trying to raise it by doing Level I missions. How long has it been since any of you people were new? It's going to cost you as much as it would a Destroyer every 3 months just for the insurance if you insure it - and - it's going to cost you 4 million a pop every time you lose one if you don't. 4) As to justifying my liking to fly a particular ship - that is precisely what you people are doing. You just want to fly Cruisers so you're trying to justify using them on Level I missions. That's all this is. My arguments above are completely valid - your arguments are completely false. You're WRONG and you just don't want to admit it. As I said - if you're an experienced player and want to run Level I missions in Cruisers - go ahead. But if you're advising new people to do that - it is a mistake - and they are going to be the ones paying for it. Obviously, you people have forgotten what it was like when a Million ISK was a lot of money. I ran a lot of missions in Frigates because people said that Destroyers were lame. They were wrong and wasted my time. I bought Cruisers and Skipped Destroyers because people said that Destroyers were lame. They were wrong and cost me a lot of money. I have used Destroyers on Level I missions and found them to be the best tool for that job. I have Cruisers and Could use them on Level I missions - but if I have to run a Level I mission for some corporation I'm trying to build my status with - I use a Destroyer to do it - because it does a BETTER job than the Cruiser. It is FASTER for one thing and it pops rats just as fast as I can lock them. Then I come back with my Salvager Destroyer with it's MWD and clean that mission up fast. Ah well ... you people just gave some bad advice and now you're trying to save face. I'm sure you meant well but you're wrong and should stop trying to avoid being embarrassed by being wrong. You're only making yourselves look even sillier. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools
Sulissa UrnVelve	Posted - 2009.05.14 16:51:00 - [25] Quote: Then I come back with my Salvager Destroyer with it's MWD and clean that mission up fast. I hear mwd work great for salvaging in deadspace missions :)
Vars Shaylo Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.05.14 19:22:00 - [26] New players need to get good with frigates and spend some time skilling up and making ISK while learning to fight/fly in EVE. Hopping into a cruiser too soon will leave you fail-fitted, broke and on your way to Emoragequit City. It takes at least two or three weeks to skill up properly for a cruiser, and to afford one, unless you buy your ISK or get it handed to you. I waited four weeks before buying a cruiser, was ready, could afford to lose it, and it was fun; but I still love flying frigs The destroyer is a nice stopover on the way to cruisers, and is a great utility ship for Level One Missions/Highsec ratting and salvaging. Take your time with Frigs/Destroyers, cost and skill-wise they're virtually the same anyway. Not someone's alt
FOl2TY8 Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.05.14 19:41:00 - [27] Originally by: Sulissa UrnVelve Quote: Then I come back with my Salvager Destroyer with it's MWD and clean that mission up fast. I hear mwd work great for salvaging in deadspace missions :) It is once you turn the mission in. ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve
Tai Paktu The Scope	Posted - 2009.05.14 22:19:00 - [28] I'd suggest your friend thing long term. Does he want to do missions as a profession? If so, how does he want to do his level 4s? If Gallente, he can go Dominix or Megathron (or Hyperion). The Domi, arguably one of the best mission running battleships, is almost entirely a drone boat. The progression there could go Vexor -> Myrmidon -> Dominix. Or would he prefer hybrids, like railguns or blasters? In which case Thorax -> Brutix (though the Myrm would probably be better) -> Megathron. Turret tracking can be an issue but is overcome with pilot skill. Managing distance, transversal and angular velocity and fitting a web are all ways to overcome it. Better to train down the road you want to go long term than have to re-train later on (though that'll probably happen anyways).
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.05.15 00:13:00 - [29] Originally by: FOl2TY8 Originally by: Sulissa UrnVelve Quote: Then I come back with my Salvager Destroyer with it's MWD and clean that mission up fast. I hear mwd work great for salvaging in deadspace missions :) It is once you turn the mission in. indeed, right click bookmark ftw! destroyers are great little ships. if you make an effort to understand guns level 1s will melt away, and you can do most level 2s. although by this point you can probably buy that cruiser
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.05.15 01:43:00 - [30] Quote: 2) My guess is that all the people who jumped from frigates to cruisers never spent any time in destroyers and thus have no idea what they are talking about. They certainly have no idea what they are talking about ... I'm just assuming that that is why. To say that you can just run Level I's in a Frigate ignores the fact that destroyers are vastly more effective than frigates, especially when salvaging. Look at "When Worlds Collide" - that mission is so much faster to run and salvage with destroyers than frigates it is no comparison. Sure ... you can run all your Level I missions in a Frigate - but why would you? Unless you are just in it for the challenge - there is no reason. Laffo. Nope. I got a Cormorant on my first character and it was the best thing evar because it looks like the batmobile. It instapopped L1 frigates. So did my Caracal however. And my incursus on my second character. It's not like L1's are challenging enough to require a specialised ship tbh. L2s are still lots of frigs to shoot. If you think running them is slow in a cruiser you're using the wrong cruiser. Destroyers aren't that much better than the best gun frigs btw. It's 3.something vs 5 guns (when you factor in the ROF penalty). You also only get a damage bonus on one of them and then it's only significant if you train the skill up a few levels and then you're wasting training time. Note also that I didn't say destroyers were bad for L1s at any point. It's just frigs aren't bad either and the cruisers I mentioned are better. The OP asked what the optimum cruiser for missions was. I recommended the optimum cruisers for missions. None of em are gun boats at this stage because of the target mix Since he asked about missions I recommended ships that would scale up skillwise into good L3 ships. They aren't gunboats either. I have tried all three approaches and I know what kind of carebearing makes my wallet go up quickest

Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.05.15 02:38:00 - [31] Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 15/05/2009 03:00:32 Originally by: TraininVain Quote: 2) .... I have tried all three approaches and I know what kind of carebearing makes my wallet go up quickest OK ... so ... you *weren't* a new person when you started using Cruisers to run Level I missions then. You ran them in frigates and destroyers and - by the time you started running missions in Cruisers - you had some idea of how to tank them and the skills to fit them with Cruiser sized weapons. Right? Remember the part where I said that if you *weren't* a new person and wanted to run Level I's in Cruisers that was OK. It was a waste of a ship but it was OK? If you know what you're doing - do anything you want. If you aren't a new person and get that Cruiser blown up because you made a mistake (and we all make mistakes now and again) then you probably have the money to pay for replacing it. But don't get into a Cruiser the first week you're playing the game - just because you can. Sailing around with a Cruiser fitting nothing but a frigate style tank and frigate guns - is a mistake. That is what I'm trying to get across. The point is - that new people do those kind of things all the time because they don't know any better. I've seen people laughing in local about the kill mail for a Dominix some guy was sailing about fitted with 150mm guns ... so it could be worse ... "But that's all I had in the hangar ..." I always run Level I missions in a Destroyer. That is how I think it is best to do that. If you, as another experienced player, want to run those same missions in your cruiser - I don't care - I disagree with you but you've got enough experience to do whatever you want to do. As to the guns ... yeah (and I knew you were going to bring that up) there is the rate of fire penalty and of course if you do like I ... usually do ... and fit like 5 150's because that's all the Power Grid I've got after the tank, then it's going to vary. To some degree I prefer to trade range and hitting power for density of fire. That has worked out for me. On other occasions I've fit like 8 Light Beam Lasers to a Coercer. shrug So as to the number of guns you fit ... that all depends on a number of different things. And - you're still belittling a significant increase in fire power. So what if it's ONLY twice as much? You forgot to mention the range you can engage targets in though - didn't you? Destroyers have a significant locking range advantage over Frigates. And - they can fit a better tank. Now as to this wasting training time crap ... how long does it take to get to Destroyers III? Hunh? A few hours? Is that all that big a deal? "Oh My God!!! I spent several ENTIRE Hours training Destroyers! Think how much progress I could have made towards my Battleship in that time!!!!" Give me a frakking break. Are you going to nit pick every single solitary skill someone trains? "Oh - better not train that skill - it will take 8 hours off your training time for your Dreadnought!" That Dreadnought might still be years away but - every hour counts! However - yes - you did answer the question the OP asked. If the OP *was* going to go into a Cruiser - you gave him good information ... for someone who is ONLY going to do PVE ... at least according to the EVE dogma about Missile Boats. Better advice - would have been NOT to get into a cruiser as a new player, to wait until you could equip and tank it properly. The thing is - tell a new player to fit a ship the way you did and - what are they really going to do? They're NOT going to go out and get the skills first for everything you mentioned - that's NOT what new players do - they get the damn ship first and then sail it around fitted with whatever happens to be in their frakking hangar. That's what new players do because they're oh so excited about getting that big fancy ship. Just like I was. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.05.15 03:18:00 - [32] Edited by: TraininVain on 15/05/2009 03:23:03 Edited by: TraininVain on 15/05/2009 03:22:17 Fitting 5 guns is ... the same damage as a skilled up frigate. L1 stuff pops so quickly the bulk of the time is spent locking up new targets tbh. AMLs use standard missile skill. Drones are their own skill tree which you'll want to skill up whatever you plan to end up in. None of these require much in the way of fitting skills since they're light on grid. As I said earlier, the cruiser/weapon combos we're talking about very forgiving. Standard EVE rule of "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" applies, but when doesn't it?
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.05.15 12:12:00 - [33] Originally by: TraininVain Edited by: TraininVain on 15/05/2009 03:33:50 Fitting 5 guns is ... the same damage as a skilled up frigate. That was 5 guns *WITH* a tank. The reason you didn't get a reply to this before the servers went down was that I was off doing calculations as to just what could be fitted. To many apples and oranges though. Suffice it to say that with a Power Grid nearly twice as big as a Frigate a destroyer can fit a lot more stuff which the pilot can divide up as he sees fit between tank and gank. Quote: L1 stuff pops so quickly the bulk of the time is spent locking up new targets tbh. Yes it does. So - why risk a cruiser a new person can ill afford to lose when a Destroyer will do the job? Quote: AMLs use standard missile skill. Drones are their own skill tree which you'll want to skill up whatever you plan to end up in. None of these require much in the way of fitting skills since they're light on grid / don't use grid. Most new people don't know what an AML is. Also, Drones and Missiles are two separate weapons paths, neither of which is as simple to use as a gun. Everyone starts off in a Rookie ship with a gun. All the Rookie ships will carry a drone but unless they're Gallente, and I'm not sure about that now, they won't start off with any drone skills. So you're asking a bunch of rookies to use two weapons systems instead of one - and - even if they do fit guns - they've got all those tracking problems with cruiser sized guns. It isn't just a question of skilling it's a question of understanding how these weapons systems work. Having the skill is one thing but understanding from experience how to use it is another. A Cruiser is a much more capable ship than a Frigate or a Destroyer but with that capability comes a complexity that takes some time to learn. Quote: As I said earlier, the cruiser/weapon combos we're talking about are very forgiving. Yes and if rookie's can figure out anything it's their weapons. But that's not the problem. I HAD the right weapons on all those Cruisers I lost. The problem was that I had no idea how to TANK them. Tanking is a lot more complicated than just slapping on some guns. The other thing is ... rookies don't understand the ways an inherently slower ship such as a cruiser needs to protect itself from faster ships such as frigates. And - all of this is ignoring cap issues. Cruisers have bigger capacitors but a large part of keeping them alive is understanding cap management and how it is effected by not only weapons systems but shields and armor repairs. All in all, to best use any ship, there is a lot to learn in EVE. Besides all the weapons paths, there are all the support skills as well, not to mention things like how the market works, the Solar System Security Levels and a ton of other stuff. Given time most of us are able to learn these things but when you're a rookie - it's best to start simple and work your way up. Destroyers are a step on that ladder and it is a mistake to skip them. Learning, making your mistakes in smaller ships is what you want to do. Quote: Standard EVE rule of "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" applies, but when doesn't it? Precisely - and exactly why rookies shouldn't be flying cruisers. Frigates and Destroyers are a lot cheaper to replace and if you insure them - a lot cheaper to insure. Frigates and Destroyers are so cheap - that most of us don't bother to insure them but if a rookie's going to insure anything it would be a cruiser he can barely afford to buy - much less replace. But then that's something else he's going to have to pay for and - even if he does insure it - insurance won't pay for all those cruiser sized modules that are more expensive than their Frigate/Destroyer sized equivalents. And - that's one more lesson a rookie needs to learn. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools
Sophia Truthspeaker Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.05.15 17:12:00 - [34] On my first char I skipped destroyer pretty much totally. As I switched into a Caracal for lvl 2 I didn't have much problems. Later I started a new alt and basicly pushed him as fast as I could. I couldn't fit a decent armor tank, heh, anything decent, tbh, but the char was sitting in a Vexor and was flying lvl 1 missions without problems. Those lvl 1 missions hardly ever scratched the shields of the Vexor. I expect something similar being true for BC ins lvl 2 missions. Granted, it is neither challenging nor great, but fact is, a cruiser has unbonused a much bigger tank than any frig. So you will be able to fly lvl 1 sooner safer than you'd be able to with frigs. _________ The truth is out there
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.05.16 04:17:00 - [35] Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker On my first char I skipped destroyer pretty much totally. As I switched into a Caracal for lvl 2 I didn't have much problems. Later I started a new alt and basicly pushed him as fast as I could. I couldn't fit a decent armor tank, heh, anything decent, tbh, but the char was sitting in a Vexor and was flying lvl 1 missions without problems. Those lvl 1 missions hardly ever scratched the shields of the Vexor. I expect something similar being true for BC ins lvl 2 missions. Granted, it is neither challenging nor great, but fact is, a cruiser has unbonused a much bigger tank than any frig. So you will be able to fly lvl 1 sooner safer than you'd be able to with frigs. Two suggestions: 1) Don't screw up. 2) Don't take on another player in that cruiser. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools
Eve Marik	Posted - 2009.05.17 13:39:00 - [36] The first non-tutorial mission I did was The Score and I lost badly in a tristan. The next attempt a few minutes later was using a catalyst which also got blown up. Mind you, I was new and was fitting my ships based on whatever the description of the ship said. My last attempt was a few hours later in a vexor and 5 light drones. Well I succeeded this time without taking much shield damage. After that I cleared lv 1 missions in my unfitted vexor so fast it was not even funny :)
Harlon Paraxis	Posted - 2009.05.17 14:11:00 - [37] Bear in mind that you're using drones. Drones make everything easy.
Ed Chianese	Posted - 2009.06.18 07:52:00 - [38] Rookie here, weighing in on the destroyer/cruiser debate. I was halfway through the Epic Mission Arc when I managed to save enough for a Vexor and a basic fitout, I had been flying a Tristan until then and been doing okay. So I sail up in my brand new Vexor for a mission that I discover has a webbing/stasis rat as its last boss, and as I sat there unable to get distance and my long range hybrid turrets fired uselessly, I watched my 3.4mil investment blow up before my eyes - I hadnt been able to afford insurance either. I managed to finish off the mission in a frigate and guess what the mission reward was? Destroyer skill book. Luckily I had enough ISK for a Catalyst and since then, I haven't looked back - I'm in love with my Cat and it pops frigs with ease. (And looks so damn cool). I'm not in a hurry to get back in a Cruiser until I move onto level 2 missions, but even then it won't be until I can fit it properly. So basically, to support the previous posters - if you're a rookie, destroyers are your friends. Sure that cruiser might be tempting, but wait until you can fly the damn thing properly.
Kezzle	Posted - 2009.06.18 09:05:00 - [39] Originally by: Suicide Mike ...I have heard that Destroyers are pretty much junk... Why don't we just stop there... Destroyers are in no way junk. They are excellent for level 1 missions; you can fly a Dessie effectively with a lower SP total than is needed for a Cruiser. They're a tenth the price to replace if you make a newbie mistake and lose it. They can handle a decent number of L2 missions too, and once you're in L3s and above, they make a good platform for salvage with their large numbers of high power slots. Training the Destroyers skill takes almost no time to get you access to a versatile and capable hull type that you can afford much earlier than a cruiser. Downsides? I think the training time is the only one. It could perhaps be a bit of a distraction if you have a jones for getting into Battleships ASAP, but some might not count this as a Bad Thing. Some people think some of the Destroyers are Fugly. Destroyers don't seem to have much of a fanbase in PvP. Caveat: I R Noob and only have experience of the Thrasher, but it did all but the last wave of L2 Blockade.
aDore Him	Posted - 2009.06.18 09:34:00 - [40] I'm a complete newb and I was a complete newb and I jumped asap into a Cruiser (took me under 1 weak to sit in a Maller). My Skills were so low when I got into my Cruisers I could barely use all Slots of it and fitting it with all medium guns was a wet dream (as Amarr). My Grid was too low, My CPU was too low.. The game shouted at me that I shouldn't sit in that Ship... You know what? It worked like a charm. But you need some basic logics to make it work: Question 1: What will you fight mainly? Frigates. Question 2: What kills frigates? Small Guns. Conclusion: Fit 2-3 Small Guns and only 2-3 Mediums. It's pretty much impossible to lose a Cruiser in a lvl 1 Mission if you just fit a few small Guns (or got Drones)... Or know how to warp out... Actually, I really don't know how it's possible to lose a Cruiser in a lvl 1 whiteout being afk. As soon as I had the standings to get lvl 2 missions I also had the supportskills to actually fit my Cruiser a little better and I plowed thru them, actually I didn't notice any difference in difficulty, just that some enemies took longer to shoot at. Btw: As soon as my Cruiser skills were halfway decent and I had the money I jumped into a Battle Cruiser (Harbinger) and did lvl 3's, they weren't easy, I couldn't fit more than 3 heavy Mediums and still had to use mainly medium mediums, my Capskills were totally underdeveloped and I had 0 Droneskills.. Effect: I had to warp out from time to time to recharge Cap/Repair and Warp back in at a higher distance to kill the frigates from 30-50km away... Never lost a ship, just don't be afk during missions. If you notice that you run out of Cap or Tank soon align to some Planet, warp there and repair your armor/shield and wait to regenerate your cap. The effects: Lvl 3's play LOADS better than lvl 2's... Lvl 1 to lvl 2 isn't that big of a difference, but lvl 3's really shine compared to lvl 2's. I could actually buy all the stuff I want for the ship and it's getting nearly fully T2 fitted (except guns), the Missions are easy again now and I basically just wait for the money to get into a BS... Which I again will be barely able to fly but will increase my Cash flow dramatically because of lvl 4 Missions (and very quick lvl 3's if I fit it for lvl 3's). Just be careful and think about your fittings. Lvl 1-3 Missions (don't know about 4's yet) are easy, you don't need good skills or anything special and you should NEVER die. If you die it's 100% your mistake. As long as there are no Disruptors/Scrams you are free to flee at any given time, DO IT.

Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.06.18 11:08:00 - [41] Originally by: aDore Him ... Question 1: What will you fight mainly? Frigates. Question 2: What kills frigates? ... Destroyers.
aDore Him	Posted - 2009.06.18 11:20:00 - [42] By bumping into them with some spiky bits you mounted on it? Seriously, i'm kinda scared about some people here. How is it possible to die in a lvl 1 Mission when you're flying a cruiser? I really can't understand this. Destroyers make for fast lvl 1's, no one denies that. BUT so do cruisers... If you want to fly T2 Frigates later I would go for the destroyer, if not go for the Cruiser. There is NO drawback aside from the time needed to get the Isk for the Cruiser.. Telling someone that making lvl 1's in a Cruiser is stupid and a mistake is just a blatant lie. The guys that are offensive here, are the Destroyer huggers. I mean I could just tell you that Destroyers have only one reason to be in this game: Mounting Salvagers, MWD, Afterburner and Cargo Enhancers and would be closer to the truth than you saying that Cruisers are bad for lvl 1's..
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.06.18 11:51:00 - [43] There was someone around here who had a sig that showed a picture of the undock button. The caption to that was "Pressing this is consenting to non-consensual PVP." I didn't lose my two cruisers to rats. I was flying around in them with no clue how to use them - and had run ins with other players. Because I had only run missions in them I had as a new player an entirely incorrect impression of their power and majesty. I got popped both times by guys in frigates who knew what they were doing - when I did not. Every time you undock you take a chance on losing your ship. Every Single Frakking Time. Since you do not need a Cruiser to run Level I missions - you are risking a more expensive ship to no good purpose. And ... people can screw up in even Level I missions. Now - as I have said before in this specific thread - if you're a veteran and have the money to throw away using cruisers on Level I missions - do whatever you want. But - it is a waste of a ship - and if you're a new player - you really don't need some guy who was lucky enough to never really screw up and lose his cruiser telling you otherwise. Oh ... and the comment about "Destroyer Huggers" is asinine. They're all just frakking tools. Use the right tool for the job. But don't be here on the New Citizens Forum confusing new players into wasting their money doing something that is for them - a mistake. They don't have the skills to even hope to fly a cruiser well much less the money to afford to lose one. Look at the guy a few posts up. He got into a cruiser he couldn't even afford to insure - and then lost it. For a new player that is devastating - *AND THEY DO IT ALL THE FRAKKING TIME!!!!!!* The problem is - new players almost all want to get into bigger ships as fast as they can. Which is almost universally a mistake. What they need - is to be told not to do that until they can afford to lose them. Given the paltry amount of money they are getting paid to do Level I missions - it's a lot harder to replace a cruiser than it is a destroyer. But I've said all that before. Some people are just to thick headed to get it. Just because you've gotten away with it - doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake. Yes. Anyone who gets their ship blown up running missions - lost it because they made a mistake. Mission running is easy. The rats are stupid. But - people aren't perfect - and EVERYONE makes mistakes - including you I'll bet. It's always better to make your mistakes in cheaper ships. If you don't need a more expensive ship to do a job - why risk one? Now ... as to telling lies ... do you even know what a lie is?
aDore Him	Posted - 2009.06.18 12:26:00 - [44] I'm a new player, I did nearly asap jump into a cruiser and it worked like a charm. If you mission you shouldn't lose your ship, it's nearly impossible if you are not afk. The rats need an ETERNITY to kill a cruiser. You got killed by another player in highsec, while flying a **ty T1 Cruiser? PvP in Highsec? A Cruiser is no juicy target for suicide ganks, so I see 3 possibility: You ed 2 guys REALLY off, which both killed you before Concord arrived and they where ed off enough to lose their Ship (and risk their Pod). You did something **ed (can flip) and could also just hit the self destruction button And the really unlikely solution: Someone with a ship that can kill you before Concord kills him attacked you for **s and giggles. If you are out to low/0 sec your asking for getting killed (and to kill stuff yourself), afaik this topic is about lvl 1 Missions which you probably won't do in lowsec (why should you?). Your losses in, most probably lowsec, PvP are just one thing, offtopic. No one said you should jump into a cruiser instantly and go out to PvP in it...
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.06.18 14:09:00 - [45] Ah ... the old Off Topic gambit - the final refuge of people who've lost an argument. There's a reason I mentioned PVP that you don't seem to get. The point was - that using a cruiser to fly missions - gives a new player a false impression of how powerful it is. That is what happened to me. I flew Level I missions in my cruiser and then had other players steal from me - so - because I thought the thing was a lot more powerful than it was - and didn't understand just how vast the difference between PVP and PVE was - because I was a new player - I took these guys on. I got an education in just how wrong I was. It wasn't that I didn't think PVP would be different - it's that I thought having a bigger ship would make up for it. New players do things like that all the time. If a new player uses a Destroyer to run missions - and they get into it over a stolen item with some other player - they will use that Destroyer to take that other player on with, especially if he's in a frigate. That is the kind of thing new players do. Then they will get blown up in their Destroyer instead of a Cruiser. What part of ANY TIME YOU UNDOCK - FOR ANY REASON - YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SHIP - do you not understand? You gave a list of ways people can lose their ships - besides in missions. How many ships do you think new players have? Most of them have like ONE combat ship - and they use that for everything. That's why all of the above is entirely ON TOPIC. Of course I screwed up taking on a more experienced player - but I did it to learn something about PVP - the screw up was I simply had no idea how outclassed my cruiser was by they and their frigates. So - I made my mistake in a more expensive ship. I was out ratting when the second one happened - which is PVE. So I wasn't looking for PVP but - it came to me and I took the guy on - BECAUSE I THOUGHT I COULD BEAT HIM IN A CRUISER. If I'd been in a Destroyer I might or might not have made the same mistake - but it would have cost me a lot less. Have you even been reading these forums? People get blown up in their mission ships by other players all the frakking time. Pirates LIVE to **** off some guy in his mission ship into taking them on. The ways Pirates kill mission runners are far to numerable for me to list in this thread. If you think there is some kind of dividing line where you're off running a mission so you're safe from PVP - then you really are a new person - as I can tell you there is NOT. And - did you even bother to read the post above? That guy lost his Cruiser in a mission. New people lose cruisers in missions all the time. I've almost lost a cruisers ratting in a complex because I didn't know how to fit them - and - didn't know when to leave. Sure - rats do take a long time to kill a cruiser that is properly fitted - but what about the new guy who doesn't know how to fit his cruiser? Have you seen my sig? Why do you think I've got that bit about kiting and orbiting in my sig? Because I've had to say it to new people who'd lost their ships in local a dozen times or more. They get taught to orbit - so they orbit - do you think they aren't going to orbit just because they've got a cruiser? The last thing in the world you want to do in a cruiser is orbit a frigate - but they'll do that since they don't know any better. They'll see some mission like Worlds Collide and they'll think "Oh ... I'm in a cruiser. All these other missions have been so easy in my cruiser I'll just dive right into the middle of these guys ..." and then since they've not gotten down into structure before - they don't know when to leave until it's to late - and - oops - bye bye cruiser. Maybe you're smart enough to not get blown up on a mission by rats. I've never been. Maybe you know enough not to engage in PVP when you're out in your mission ship. When I did it - I did have my ship insured and - had plenty of money to buy another one. Some new people aren't like us. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools
Inat Mivea	Posted - 2009.06.18 14:26:00 - [46] Originally by: Vars Shaylo New players need to get good with frigates and spend some time skilling up and making ISK while learning to fight/fly in EVE. Hopping into a cruiser too soon will leave you fail-fitted, broke and on your way to Emoragequit City. It takes at least two or three weeks to skill up properly for a cruiser, and to afford one, unless you buy your ISK or get it handed to you. I waited four weeks before buying a cruiser, was ready, could afford to lose it, and it was fun; but I still love flying frigs The destroyer is a nice stopover on the way to cruisers, and is a great utility ship for Level One Missions/Highsec ratting and salvaging. Take your time with Frigs/Destroyers, cost and skill-wise they're virtually the same anyway. i'm gonna QFE this post. I am a new player with maybe a week of solid play under my belt (after my trial account from last year). Anyway, last night I bought a vexxor, fitted it with dual 150mm railguns and a few other things. I almost lost it twice doing the epic arc on the Kritsan Parthus mission. I no shields, no armor, and at one point no cap to activate warp I made it out and eventually completed the mission - but up until that, I had been using a catalyst and had no probs whatsoever. My guess is that I didnt have the right stuff in the medium and low slots of the vexxor.
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.06.18 14:43:00 - [47] Your big problem was if you were using the guns as your primary weapon. The Vexor is a drone boat. Check out it's bonus's. Compare those to the Thorax which is really a blaster boat - note the MWD bonus ... Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools
Inat Mivea	Posted - 2009.06.18 14:53:00 - [48] Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Your big problem was if you were using the guns as your primary weapon. The Vexor is a drone boat. Check out it's bonus's. Compare those to the Thorax which is really a blaster boat - note the MWD bonus ... well just b/c i have guns fitted doenst mean I wasnt using drones...... I had three drones on her as well.
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.06.18 15:03:00 - [49] You probably want more drones than that ... You want much better drone skills than you've probably got as well. Drone Interfacing will get you a 20% boost per level trained to what your drones do and then there are a slew of others. You want most of them. Of course, I'd recommend using a Destroyer for your Level I missions - but - a Vexor is a good Level II boat. Get your drone skills up and you can really hurt the rats from a distance where they can't touch you. I haven't used a Vexor myself - I've got an Arbitrator, which is the Amarr Drone Cruiser but it is very effective as long as it stays away from the rats ... You can of course use ships for other than their designed purpose but looking at their bonus's gives you an idea of what the ship was designed to do and what it does best. Now - rail guns were a good choice for running missions - not blasters - as you can kite the enemy and keep away from them - but you need to have a balanced fit - and especially a good 10mn AB to outrun the rats. Thus, you can use the same ship for PVE and PVP but you want to have entirely different fits. The Ships and Modules forum is a good place to look for and ask about fitting your ship. Just keep in mind that there are some veterans in there posting some really odd fits. Mostly these guys have a reason for doing something odd but you pretty much want to be enough of a veteran player to understand just why they did something odd and the costs they are knowingly paying to do that. If you tell people what ship you want to fit and what you want to do with it - as well as how long you've been playing and your skill point level they'll give you some good advice.
Inat Mivea	Posted - 2009.06.18 15:11:00 - [50] yep, i got a drone bay full of drones but can only deply three at once - Drones IV trained overnight so I'll have 4 this evening. I'll work on the Drones Interface next. I've kinda settled on the "ranged" approach by using railguns and drones. Only prob with this is that I am not in range to use and elctronics on them such as nos, drains, etc. I guess there are skills out there to inrease the range on those too.

Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.06.18 15:30:00 - [51] Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 18/06/2009 15:32:24 You're doing the right thing. I thought you were only carrying 3 drones. The nos and stuff are more PVP and short range so don't worry about that so much for PVE. Another thing you want are some of the Drone Augmentation Modules. You can't use the Drone Control Unit on a Cruiser but you can use the other three. Those will also give your range a buff. Also - apprently Electronic Warfare Drone Intefacing will increase your range for all your drones ... The Skill Scout Drone Operation - lets you use your light drones but also give you a control range boost per level. Oh yeah ... and Cap Bosters ... you start running into cap draining rats in Level II's ... so ... you might want to think about Cap Boosters - though Drones don't use any - so that's a plus.
Inat Mivea	Posted - 2009.06.18 15:37:00 - [52] Thanks for the advice, Tosh. I've added those skills to my training plan.
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.06.18 15:52:00 - [53] No problem. There's just a ton of stuff to train when you're new. Besides your learning skills and weapons skills you've got Navigation, Engineering, Electronics and Mechanic skills to train plus any Social (more money/standings for the same effort) and any Industry Skills you might want. What I do with a new character now - is to get enough money ... and then go buy a bunch of these skills and train them all up to Level 3. You can do that really quickly and it will get you over half the value you're going to get out of the skill. Always do a show info on a skill before you buy it to make sure you have the prereq's trained. Then, I start working on the Level IVs. Now - the exception to that - is the base skills in each category. You want to get those to Level V as soon as you can as there are often other skills that are only available once those are trained to IV or V but these are all Rank 1 skills - so even training them to Level V only takes 5 days. That my seem like a long time now ... but trust me ... in EVE ... it isn't ... Drones V, Engineering V and Electronics V are really important - as they give you a base capability you really need in those areas. You want all 5 drones. You want all the Powergrid you can possibly get. And you want all the CPU you can possibly get. Ha! Ha! Now I really am Off Topic!!
Dodgy Past	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:19:00 - [54] Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk these are all Rank 1 skills - so even training them to Level V only takes 5 days. That my seem like a long time now ... but trust me ... in EVE ... it isn't ... The one thing everyone will agree with.
lacretia	Posted - 2009.06.18 19:00:00 - [55] Much of this thread sounds like "You aren't playing EvE my way, therefore you are teh sux"... Destroyers are a very fun ship to fly and fit a number of awesome little niches in the game. 1. Best cheap salvager...load it up with Salvagers, tractors, and cargo expanders and this sucker rocks. 2. Awesome cheap level 1 mission runner. Frigs die as fast as you can lock them, and with the large rack of guns, you lock a lot quickly. 3. Anti-support ship! In PvP this ship rocks as an anti-tackle/anti-drone/anti-frig platform. Trick is, screw the tank, you get targeted in a fleet fight, you are prolly dead anyway, that extra little HP boost isnt going to do much. But stack in tracking comps and damage mods and you can insta-lock/insta-pop many frigs drones and pods. Do you get on this big "zOmG I was top damage on the carrier!" messages? No, but you still make ships go boom...win. Are there other ships that do the above? Yes, there are! Are these other ships more "efficient"? Perhaps and in some cases probably. Is using a fly swatter more efficient in killing a spider on my kitchen floor than using my shoe? Maybe, but sometimes you just dont have a flyswatter handy...or you like getting your shoes dirty...who knows....the bug is still dead.
Regat Kozovv Caldari Alcothology	Posted - 2009.06.18 20:31:00 - [56] I'll toss in my two cents. I'm a CEO of a corp with a lot of new players in it. I've got a couple of guys who are wanting to move up into destroyers, and I've been trying to encourage them to stay in that frigate a little longer. Destroyers are good boats. Excellent salvagers, fantastic anti-frigate platform. But they have barely the defence of a frigate while having a much larger signature radius. Many refer to them as "glass cannons"; excellent firepower, paper thin. For a new player who's still learning tactics and how to properly fit and fly ships, this usually spells lossmail. In our exploration runs I've noticed that both of our losses were destroyers, while the punishers and rifters they flew earlier survived just fine. Some suggested not to move up into a Cruiser too fast either, and I agree. I had to help a friend with a level II just last night who's Rupture kept going into hull. (Some advice on fitting a ship and fitting effective weapons helped.) In the end the choice between a destroyer and a cruiser comes down to how well a new pilot is acclimating to the game and understands how it works. Here's what I'd recommend. If you're doing level Is, use a frigate, and if you want to burn through tons of them, user a destroyer. Start with level IIs when your frigate skills start to get really good. Note I didn't say destroyer. Get in a Rifter, Incircus, Punisher, etc, and really learn how to make the most of it. There's nothing wrong with small ships in this game, and for new players who's defense and fitting skills are still being developed, having a small signature and high speed will do more for your defence than trying to tank anything at this point. Start learning the skills for a Cruiser. Don't buy one and hop right in the moment you can fly it, get some of the support skills up. A good way to pace yourself is to get a few ranks in medium weapons, with most of your engineering and mechanic skills and III or IV, and then pick up Cruisers. Train it to III or so. Note that your frigate is probably really decent at this point, you should be able to tackle a lot of level IIs in it. Move to the cruiser. Run a level I or two so you can get the feel of it. Don't be afraid to fit small guns or assault launchers if you're finding that you're shooting a lot of small targets. At this point most don't come back to the destroyer. But that doesn't make them worthless. Go back and train them; if you're flying cruisers well then your destroyer should work great with just III or IV rank in the skill. Stick it out in the frigate a little while longer, and train up those cruiser skills. Shouldn't have to lose many ships of any type.
Inat Mivea	Posted - 2009.06.18 23:25:00 - [57] i like your advice, regat. got room for any more noobs in that corp?
Zephyr Mallory Starfire Oasis Thalion Syndicate	Posted - 2009.06.19 00:01:00 - [58] Destroyers, I usually refer to as paper tigers - very tough opponents in a scrap, but one good hit can really ruin their day. the glass cannons are the stealth bombers, and to a lesser extent the breacher, kestrel, and whatever the croissant shaped thing the amarr have is called. But, all the same yeah. I highly caution anyone who asks away from flying a cruiser until they have almost no problems in their frigate. This usually means they've gotten their defensive skills and their weapons support skills up a bit more. One of the big advantages of flying a destroyer over a cruiser early on, aside from the cost, is that there are gates for level 1 missions that do not allow cruisers to warp using them (and some that don't allow tech 2 frigates either). These gates do, if I remember correctly, allow destroyers to activate them. Frigates and Destroyers are offensive weapons as a general rule. You need to fly them aggressively - your best defense is poking air holes in the other guy's ship. Cruisers are the same way to a large extent and if your cruiser weapon related skills are not up to the task, you will find yourself the proud new owner of a cruiser shaped wreck. I will however never tell someone they can not fly a larger ship, it's far more effective to say it's not recommended and give some good reasons why.
Ambrosse Brutus	Posted - 2009.06.19 01:31:00 - [59] Anyone who tells you a destroyer is a waste of time really doesn't know what they are talking about so dont listen to them. Cruisers and destroyers are both excellent ships although my advice to the majority of new players would be go for the destroyer first, just train it to level one though enless you plan on using it extensivly later, that will take you about ten minutes and you will be blasting through level ones with no other support skills required. Later when you have the spare isk and have trained up medium weapons and support skills then get into a cruiser and use the destroyer as a salvager.
Ronpal	Posted - 2009.06.19 17:44:00 - [60] My 2 Cents I played Eve from late 2005 to mid 2007, left, gave my character to a friend and have just returned to the game. So I'm in the noobie boats again. I've found the Destroyers HIGHLY useful, and you only need to train Destroyer 1. I'm currently using a Thrasher with 4 guns, 1 missile launcher, and 2 salvagers in the highs. I specifically got Salvaging early for isk making purposes. I use a webber, AB and Cap Battery in the mids, and a Damage Control and Armor Rep in the lows. I use EMP S ammo, AB into a bunch of level 1 rats, web em down and blow them away. I rarely hit my actual "Tank", only Blockade has put me into my armor with this setup. I like it because I can turn a 10 min, 50K reward level 1, into 3 Million Isk thanks to the salvagers. As well, the ship is nice and cheap, so if I ever do make some horrible mistake or hafta AFK mid-mission for an emergency, replacing it costs next to nothing. I can easily pull in 10-12M in 2 hours from doing Level 1's and Salvaging it. Doesn't sound like much to anyone over 1.5M SP, but for those of us under 500K SP, 10-12M Isk in 2 hours is VERY nice.

Cairnait Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.21 23:18:00 - [61] I am a rookie pilot - First off, I am a miner/refiner who has taken to doing missions to improve my standings to lower taxes (and provide a break from the mining). I love my cormorant. I raised it to lvl 3 to get some bonuses on it becuase I use it for all my lvl 1's for quick finish and salavage on the fly. One thing that I have not seen in this cruiser for lvl 1 debate is the fact that I have seen several lvl 1 gates that are 'locked' to anything bigger than a frigate - my corm takes them on. But my caracal cant enter. So for the true new player with little isk and little training in the proper mods for running a cruiser properly, I have to vote for the destroyer. I use 5 guns with a rof enhancer in lo slot, a salvager and small tractor. I havent lost it since I learned how to use it. Its not just having the skill to pilot a ship, but knowing which is best for the task at hand and how to USE it. Corm is much chepaer to replace if players decide to crash my mission and pop me. Not as big a deal now as it was when I first started, but I DO know that 4M just for a cruiser w/o fits for it was a big undertaking. Again.. my cormy can use those size restricted gates in lvl 1 where a vet player's fully fitted death dealing frig killer cruisers can merely dawdle at it wishing they had brought the right ship. :)
aDore Velr	Posted - 2009.06.22 08:53:00 - [62] Thats true. But the lvl 1's with Frigate/Destroyer restrictions tend to be very easy but good paying ones, I did them in my old Frigate which I had at my Agents station anyway (iirc it says in the mission description when you can't bring a Cruiser). After thinking some time about it I would say: If you want to be good in frigates for PvP anyway? Use Destroyers. You will be very effective in lvl 1's and your frigate/destroyer specific skills help you in PvP and PvE. You got spare Isk and don't care about Frigs for PvP? Get in a Cruiser quickly. You will be ready for lvl 2 a little faster and your skills will help you in BC's/lvl 3's. It does not make a big difference anyway. The 10 minutes for Destroyers are certainly no issue. The difference comes with the Shipsize related skills (small or med Turrets is the main difference) and that you when planning for a PvP-Frig probably want the PvP-Toys faster than when you decide to get to Cruisers first which need more skills to help you with CPU/Energygrid.
Raukho Evoke. Ev0ke	Posted - 2009.06.22 09:18:00 - [63] I've yet to fly a destroyer for anything else then salvaging. Although Trasher seems to have some PvP potential. The most important question is what does he want to do in the long run. Does he want to PvP or PVE. For PvP Amarr is the best at the moment where Caldari the worst. For PvE this is almost the opposite Caldari the best and Amarr one of the worst (especialy with low SP). Fortunatly your friend chose Vexor where Gallente is reasonably good - good at both.


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