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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:20:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Lear Hepburn We did. Nobody agreed with you, I showed you contradiction and you did not respond.
I did actually. Every single one of the quotes says wrecks are unowned. Doesn't say anything about them not bein added as extra income.
Wrecks and salvage were added to reduce the direct ISK injected into the game. The most certainly were added as income.
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:24:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Can you access a mission before the mission owner warps to it? Can you turn the mission in. Can you turn in down, or cancel it? Can you interact with the agent in any way on behalf of the mission owner?
Nope. All you can do is scan down the owner when he's in the mission. Missions are owned by the player that accepted the contract. The only reason for you to be in his mission uninvited is to harrass him. This should be flaggable.
I've already suggested a mechanic to allow you access to the wrecks after he's finished with the mission.
That depends on your definition of harassment. Legitimately taking a resource from an area which another player happens to be in - irresepctive of who found the area - is not harrassment. It is only harassment if the player is preventing the MR from carrying out the mission or taking something if that the mission runner owns (i.e. illegitimately takeing a resource). Since the MR does not own the wreck it is not harassment, therefore your argument is circular and invalid.
What are your thoughts on people who mine asteroids in mission areas? Should those asteroids be "owned" by the mission runner too?
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:28:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass I've already suggested a mechanic to allow you access to the wrecks after he's finished with the mission.
I've already suggested wrecks be made to show up for probes so they can be found outside of missions. There are lots of wrecks lost in space that never get salvaged.
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CCP Prism X
Gallente C C P
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:43:00 -
[94]
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 22/05/2009 10:45:43 Man, why does this topic keep cropping up again and again. With no new spin on it at all..
You disagree with our stance on the profession of salvaging. We get that some people do. We can't please everyone all the time. I'd repost my earlier rants on the subject to explain it further but apparently it's utterly futile to do to those that do not want to understand where we are coming from. Or perhaps this is some sort of attempt to present the "issue" over and over again until everyone gets tired of it except some 3 peeps and their alts who then claim that 100% of the community agrees with them as nobody can be arsed to disagree as they'd be repeating themselves for the gazillionth time?
Either way.. it's Friday. \o/ Have a nice weekend pilots. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008. |
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:56:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Originally by: Lear Hepburn We did. Nobody agreed with you, I showed you contradiction and you did not respond.
I did actually. Every single one of the quotes says wrecks are unowned. Doesn't say anything about them not bein added as extra income.
Wrecks and salvage were added to reduce the direct ISK injected into the game. The most certainly were added as income.
As I said before, wrecks are a source of income, but unless you take advantage of that resource then you have nobody to blame but yourself.
Originally by: Lear Hepburn Asteroids are clearly meant as income for miners, but a player with mining skills who turns up in a ship which is unable to take advantage of the asteroid will not make the income, nor can he claim the asteroids for himself and then go and get a ship to mine them - it's first come first served. The same is true of salvaging wrecks - you need the skills and the modules to take advantage of the available income. Now I realise that the miner did not "make" the asteroid in the same way that the mission runner makes the wreck, but that actually gives the mission-runner an advantage over the miner: whereas all miners simply know there will be new rocks at the belt after downtime, meaning none has the advantage of intelligence, the mission runner knows when and where the wrecks will be because he put them there. Furthermore, since there is no limit to the number of missions one can do in a day, there is an endless supply of potential wrecks; there are only a certain number of roids in a field and a limited number of fields. The advantage clearly lies with the mission runner/salavager here as he has an unlimited number of wrecks to salvage and the intelligence of where to find them, and I consider these advantages the inherent reward they get for taking the time to make the wrecks. Adding actual legally-backed ownership would add a further unneccesary advantage and would make the income riskless. Leaving them unowned and making the mission runner have to take the time to salvage them adds the risk of ninja-salvaging to an otherwise large and riskless income stream (salvaging itself is as riskless as mining; mission-running is not riskless).
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:59:00 -
[96]
Prism, I believe that part of the angst on the subject is due to the disparity in interaction with the wreck between the player who made the wreck and other players. This is explained in the opening post here, and some indication of the reason for this inconsistency in terms of the gameplay value it adds would be appreciated and may resolve some of this issue and stop it coming up again and again.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.05.22 11:07:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass O rly? You sir are a liar.
Wh0t?? I said missions produce too much ISK because the MR mostly will collect his salvage which is actually supposed for everyone, yes. NO, I've never stated CCP intended them as a balance factor.
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Can you access a mission before the mission owner warps to it? Can you turn the mission in. Can you turn in down, or cancel it? Can you interact with the agent in any way on behalf of the mission owner?
Nope.
so what? Your agent interaction is private but this does not apply to the mission itself. Do you think the Angel Cartel bothers about your agent or mission ownership?? Even if you are the only person who knows where the mission is, it has nothing to do with its ownership.
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass The only reason for you to be in his mission uninvited is to harrass him. This should be flaggable.
here again, you say "harassing" without specifiying a certain thing. Entering mission spaces does not need a special protection since everything you can do there is already covered by the game rules.
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass I've already suggested a mechanic to allow you access to the wrecks after he's finished with the mission.
No need for this, salvage is not intended as a mission reward. Ok you have quoted 2 devs on page 2 but in the opposite there are more contradictionary statements from CCP guys and proper salvage mechanics.
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AncientLord
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Posted - 2009.05.22 11:22:00 -
[98]
/agree
If some one steal salvage, let concord have fun with him.
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Esk Esme
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.22 11:24:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Esk Esme on 22/05/2009 11:25:07 lmfao more whiner's good i dea about the timer like loot timer on mage wizard game lol
everything you do in eve will involve some form of pvp player v's player dosnt hav to be cobat can b trading,market,mining,salvageing, u got beat the other dude or dudess to the stuff's
the thing that make's eve so great and adds a bit relisam to it is that no1 and nothing is 100% safe
BTW WoW is that way ----->
EDIT: my selling sux sue me or find a english teacher who cares
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.05.22 11:25:00 -
[100]
Originally by: AncientLord /agree
If some one steal salvage, let concord have fun with him.
Why? 1. You don't own it and it therefore isn't stealin. 2. Concord don't respond to theft normally, so why should they now even if this was theft?
This reads like a sentence written by an MMO player who doesn't like the MMO bit.
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AncientLord
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Posted - 2009.05.22 11:29:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Lear Hepburn
Originally by: AncientLord /agree
If some one steal salvage, let concord have fun with him.
Why? 1. You don't own it and it therefore isn't stealin. 2. Concord don't respond to theft normally, so why should they now even if this was theft?
This reads like a sentence written by an MMO player who doesn't like the MMO bit.
Scenario:
I accept the mission Mission spawns for me I kill the ships and my name is writen on that loot/ship wrecks.
So.... who killed the ships, me or you :)? If i did, then i think i got the full right to loot.
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Kenpachi Viktor
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.05.22 11:46:00 -
[102]
Originally by: AncientLord
Scenario:
I accept the mission Mission spawns for me I kill the ships and my name is writen on that loot/ship wrecks.
So.... who killed the ships, me or you :)? If i did, then i think i got the full right to loot.
The thing is, salvage is not loot. If you want loot, do missions, if you want salvage, go raid someone else's missions. ===============
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Evelgrivion
Ignatium. Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.05.22 11:46:00 -
[103]
Originally by: AncientLord
Originally by: Lear Hepburn
Originally by: AncientLord /agree
If some one steal salvage, let concord have fun with him.
Why? 1. You don't own it and it therefore isn't stealin. 2. Concord don't respond to theft normally, so why should they now even if this was theft?
This reads like a sentence written by an MMO player who doesn't like the MMO bit.
Scenario:
I accept the mission Mission spawns for me I kill the ships and my name is writen on that loot/ship wrecks.
So.... who killed the ships, me or you :)? If i did, then i think i got the full right to loot.
You've got the full right to get to the debris before someone else beats you to it. Welcome to the world of salvaging.
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.05.22 14:05:00 -
[104]
Originally by: AncientLord
Originally by: Lear Hepburn
Originally by: AncientLord /agree
If some one steal salvage, let concord have fun with him.
Why? 1. You don't own it and it therefore isn't stealin. 2. Concord don't respond to theft normally, so why should they now even if this was theft?
This reads like a sentence written by an MMO player who doesn't like the MMO bit.
Scenario:
I accept the mission Mission spawns for me I kill the ships and my name is writen on that loot/ship wrecks.
So.... who killed the ships, me or you :)? If i did, then i think i got the full right to loot.
You may have killed the ships, and you do have full right to loot. You also have full right to salvage, as does everyone else - YOU DO NOT OWN THE SALVAGE.
As much as you feel you should have ownership, through whatever justification you may see, you do not. That is the law as far as CCP are concerned (see above) and that is the way it is.
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Max Tux
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Posted - 2009.05.22 15:08:00 -
[105]
can i just point out at the very most they would build in salvaging causes aggression, and even when u steal from missions 9 out of 10 missioners won't attack you, if i was a mission runner i wouldn't complain, otherwise u never know this'll be a boost for the pirates !!
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Mad0ne
Caldari Enterprise Estonia Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.05.22 15:31:00 -
[106]
I shoot the rat, I salvage and loot it! There is no other way around...
I would really like to see quote from ccp that "salvage is not owned by anyone and its not meant to boost mission profit" I doupt that ccp would say something like this...
TBH running missions in 0.0 is alot better :D no risk... and if someone comes its just and in matter of seconds hes either dead or surrounded by allies. ----------------------------------------------- Limit cloaks to cloaking ships! Or Make covert ops`s to scan prototype and improved cloaks!!!
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Syringe
Oedipus Complex
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Posted - 2009.05.22 15:36:00 -
[107]
<3 Prism
Salvaging should stay. Fact is that it's introduced ninja-salvaging as a new game dynamic. Once upon a time, you didn't get salvage at all, so just be appreciative of the salvage you DO get to keep. Stop whining. --------- War isn't the answer. However, the objective isn't to provide answers rather than eliminate the question. |
Decarus
Amarr The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.05.22 15:36:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Decarus on 22/05/2009 15:36:36
Originally by: Mad0ne I shoot the rat, I salvage and loot it! There is no other way around...
I would really like to see quote from ccp that "salvage is not owned by anyone and its not meant to boost mission profit" I doupt that ccp would say something like this...
TBH running missions in 0.0 is alot better :D no risk... and if someone comes its just and in matter of seconds hes either dead or surrounded by allies.
Well.. here's your quote: Link to post!
If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further.
Isn't that the EXACT quote you wanted?
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Flying ZombieJesus
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Posted - 2009.05.22 15:43:00 -
[109]
I, for one, like your idea of flagging people who steal salvage.
I, however, propose a different bit of tweaking to your idea.
The salvager gets killrights on the person he's stealing from.
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Syringe
Oedipus Complex
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Posted - 2009.05.22 15:51:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Flying ZombieJesus I, for one, like your idea of flagging people who steal salvage.
I, however, propose a different bit of tweaking to your idea.
The salvager gets killrights on the person he's stealing from.
Hmmmm... Newsletter where? --------- War isn't the answer. However, the objective isn't to provide answers rather than eliminate the question. |
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Nephilius
Caldari Grey Legionaires
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Posted - 2009.05.22 17:32:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Nephilius on 22/05/2009 17:34:48 Give me an aggression timer for salvaging your wrecks, heck take your shots at me and make them count. Cause I will come back in something much meaner and nastier to turn your ship into a salvage wreck. Which will be mine to salvage of course, let's be fair here.
Missioneers who are concerned about the wrecks better watch what they wish for, because with bounties and mission rewards being what they are, salvage is rather inconsequential. You wanna fight for your salvage? Ok. But try not to let your tears stain your bibs when you get utterly pwnt by the new salvage system you cried for, and the vast number of toons who will gladly salvage your ships as well as the your mission wrecks.
Hey Prism, can we get a Salvage sticky outlining how things work so we don't have to continue this over and over again? And maybe an instalock on any future threads of this nature? Please? I ate a Carebear once...couldn't quit farting rainbows for a month. |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.05.24 06:41:00 -
[112]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 22/05/2009 10:45:43 Man, why does this topic keep cropping up again and again. With no new spin on it at all..
You disagree with our stance on the profession of salvaging. We get that some people do. We can't please everyone all the time. I'd repost my earlier rants on the subject to explain it further but apparently it's utterly futile to do to those that do not want to understand where we are coming from. Or perhaps this is some sort of attempt to present the "issue" over and over again until everyone gets tired of it except some 3 peeps and their alts who then claim that 100% of the community agrees with them as nobody can be arsed to disagree as they'd be repeating themselves for the gazillionth time?
Maybe if you guys quit putting out contradictory info and stopped changing the rules there wouldn't be a problem. It seems to me that you guys can't even decide this issue internally. It also seems to me that more then "3 peeps and thier alts" disagree with current game mechanics.
(Ya also don't have much room to complain about alts, as you encourage multi account play.)
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.05.24 06:47:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Nephilius Edited by: Nephilius on 22/05/2009 17:34:48 Give me an aggression timer for salvaging your wrecks, heck take your shots at me and make them count. Cause I will come back in something much meaner and nastier to turn your ship into a salvage wreck. Which will be mine to salvage of course, let's be fair here.
Missioneers who are concerned about the wrecks better watch what they wish for, because with bounties and mission rewards being what they are, salvage is rather inconsequential. You wanna fight for your salvage? Ok. But try not to let your tears stain your bibs when you get utterly pwnt by the new salvage system you cried for, and the vast number of toons who will gladly salvage your ships as well as the your mission wrecks.
I'm all for it. I pop your salvage frigate or destoryer, then come back with a pvp ship. You bring friends, I hide in station for 15. It's kinda like a mini high sec war.
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.05.24 08:01:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
I'm all for it. I pop your salvage frigate or destoryer, then come back with a pvp ship. You bring friends, I hide in station for 15. It's kinda like a mini high sec war.
Except it won't work like that. Anyone with an ounce of sense who is trying to pop mission runners will bring a BC fitted for both salvaging and with a large buffer and a point/web. As soon as you attack you'll get scrammed and his friends will warp in. You'll die fast.
Example fit: Hurricane 5x Salvager I 2x Medium Nosferatu II Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II 10MN Afterburner II Target Painter II
3x 800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Damage Control II 2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
5x Hornet EC-300
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.05.24 11:05:00 -
[115]
So I get a pvp ship first, I usually have one in system. I can call in friends same as them. If I don't think I can win, I won't attack.
I kill can flippers from time to time as well. What's the difference?
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.05.24 11:28:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass So I get a pvp ship first, I usually have one in system. I can call in friends same as them. If I don't think I can win, I won't attack.
I kill can flippers from time to time as well. What's the difference?
Feel free to mission-run in your PvP ship, or waste time going to get your PvP ship while the salvager goes around sucking up all your salvage. Fit a Warp Core Stabilizer or 2 in a couple of the low slots and he's definately getting away when you get back or any other time he wants to. Otherwise it's a matter of you having enough friends in-system to deal with the friends he will certainly have in-system - he's the bait, after all.
I'm yet to see much in the way of support from this from anyone other than yourself once the full ramifications are made clear.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.05.24 11:48:00 -
[117]
Hey at least I'd get the option to shoot.
Take a look again if you think I'm the only one that supports change. I just happen to be more persistant when it comes to fixing stupidity. I think more people would speak up, in this forum and others, if every salvage thread didn't get flamed to hell and back. You'll notice the flamers are the ones doing the CCP sanctioned griefing.
I wouldn't be here if ccp actually did what they say they will, and if they hadn't added "can theft" back in as a griefer tactic, while making it more profitable then running missions. Mini profession my ass.
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.05.24 12:34:00 -
[118]
Don't go blaming me for the flamers. On this thread and others I've seen option after option discussed fully, and the vast majority (call them flamers if you will) agree that salvage does not belong to the mission runner.
You are perfectly within your rights to disagree but, unless we live in a FMJ-run dictatorship (which we don't), just because you think it is so does not make it right, as Prism has stated before. I've even tried to comprehend your dissatisfaction in terms of the inconsistencies with interaction with wrecks in another thread, but you chose to resurrect this one instead.
I'm not sure what you mean by "if ccp actually did what they say they will", and I assume by "can theft" being added back in you mean the salvaging mechanic as it stands, but salvaging is a mini-profession, whether you like it or not. That you prefer can-flipping to can-theft as a mechanic is mott - go be a miner if that's your gripe.
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OKAAAAAAAAAAAAAR
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Posted - 2009.05.24 16:37:00 -
[119]
Edited by: OKAAAAAAAAAAAAAR on 24/05/2009 16:41:35 The ONLY risk missioners face is salvagers thats the ONLY risk you face, and all it does is drop your isk per hour by a small amount every now and then. It's hardly the worst thing that can happen to you especially in this game.
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4THELULZ
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Posted - 2009.05.24 16:48:00 -
[120]
I've lost track of whether I replied to this particular salvage whining thread, but I'll reiterate anyway:
One of the popular "solutions" to this "problem" seems to be giving aggression timers to salvagers.
Now I'm going to explain to you what would happen if it were so implemented. salvager takes salvage carebear fires on salavger salvager's frigate dies salvager comes back in a battleship and optionally with friends/logistics, murders carebear battleship, costing them considerably more than that salvage would've made anyway.
There are other things suggested; but look what happened when CCP implemented can aggro. The dead miners outnumber the dead canflippers at least 10:1.
Griefers will find a way to abuse any system you put in. The current situation could be a hell of a lot worse, and as other posters have said: Level 4s are virtually risk free and one of the best sources of income in the game - so you have to face the odd ninja salvager? Cry more. See if any canflipped miners or dead nullsec ratters sympathise with your poor little safe-mode iskmobile.
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