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Fix Salvage Robbery,

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Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.05.28 11:49:00 - [211] Originally by: Ysandre Aleiron and in respons to the arguments reguarding CCP Oveur's statement and how to interpret it, if CCP intended for salvage to belong to the mission runner, they would have done so.the fact that they didn't says that that was not the intention. Action (or inaction) speaks louder than words. That's exactly how it worked when salvage and wrecks were first introduced. You couldn't salvage without first removing the loot from the wreck. And then people complained because lots of other people weren't salvaging or looting. All those wasted wrecks the owner didn't want, just wasting away in space because no one wanted to get flagged as a thief to salvage them. Salvage was supposed to be consumable loot, it wasn't really intended to be free for all. Abandoned wrecks were supposed to be free for all. CCP got lazy though and never came up with a way to determine if a wreck was abandoned. Or even a way to locate abandoned wrecks.
MacMasters	Posted - 2009.05.28 11:56:00 - [212] update ITS FIXED!!! salvaging and associated criminal flagging is working as intended. good job all. grats
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.05.28 12:03:00 - [213] Originally by: MacMasters update ITS FIXED!!! salvaging and associated criminal flagging is working as intended. good job all. grats ? what you mean?
MacMasters	Posted - 2009.05.28 12:08:00 - [214] i mean its not, nor ever has been a "problem" as it is, nor is it "robbery". look up RL salvage. if you find it, its yours. if you wanna hang onto everything you shoot, start using a more efficient ship.
Robot Robot	Posted - 2009.05.28 13:19:00 - [215] There doesn't seem to even be a disagreement. It always seems that the people complaining in the forums are only concerned about "wreaks". I have no idea what a "wreak" is and I've certainly never seen one in game, so complainers like the OP are more than welcome to them. /me goes back to salvaging wrecks.
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2009.05.28 13:54:00 - [216] There's nothing to fix, salvage belongs to those who salvage it, the end, forever! Delenda est achura.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.05.28 16:36:00 - [217] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 28/05/2009 16:36:33 Originally by: MacMasters update ITS FIXED!!! salvaging and associated criminal flagging is working as intended. good job all. grats Confirmed! Wreck aggro is now working as intended. Thanks CCP!
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.05.28 16:48:00 - [218] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 28/05/2009 16:36:33 Originally by: MacMasters update ITS FIXED!!! salvaging and associated criminal flagging is working as intended. good job all. grats Confirmed! Wreck aggro is now working as intended. Thanks CCP! Nice to see that you're quite happy to sit there feed the trolls while not having the courtesy to answer my reply to you from earlier.
silken mouth	Posted - 2009.05.28 17:04:00 - [219] Originally by: Lear Hepburn As an aside, I'd also make it so that when wrecks are unowned they are properly unowned - i.e. you can tractor them and shoot them as well as salvage them. This was not a part of the earlier discussion I had with Silken, but it's one of the options I mentioned in another thread. i agree here....
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.05.28 18:11:00 - [220] Quote: No, it's not griefing. Continually targetting the same group would be griefing, but randomly picking your target is not. What you described is not nice, but it's not griefing. Besides, we aren't talking about newbies here, we're talking about players who know enough to be doing level 4 missions and slavage them. Clearly we have different definitions of what 'griefing' is. Given that, we have no real common ground for further discussion on that issue. To me, it's griefing. You're welcome to feel otherwise, but I'd bet the targets would probably agree with me. Quote: I'm not sure how much ISK/hr a ninja salvager makes compared to a mission runner. I agree that the salvage of the mission may be of considerable worth but I measure profitability on a per hour scale. Someone ran the numbers in this thread, although whether they are correct or not I cannot say for certain. They did seem to be broadly correct. Mind you - that same person stated that you can finish an L4 in an hour. I can with some missions, but only some. Others take considerably longer, at least for my character with my skills and ships. Quote: Self-induced risk is not real risk. So you'll buy me a new ship every time I lose one then? I mean, there's no RISK in it, so how could it ever possibly hurt you? If there is a chance of loss, then it is risk. You may believe that not to be the case, however it makes no sense to me logically. That's like saying there was no risk in climbing a mountain because I could have stayed home and didn't need to climb the mountain. I'd love to see you use that explanation to console a dead mountaineer's widow. I expect you'd get slapped. Most risk is self induced. That doesn't make it less risky. If you choose to volunteer for the military in a time of war does that mean it's not risky because you volunteered when you could have stayed home? Lear, you and I have very different outlooks, clearly and we aren't going to agree. There might be some common ground but most of the starting positions are very very far apart. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
silken mouth	Posted - 2009.05.28 19:00:00 - [221] Originally by: Kahega Amielden The downside is that you nerf ninjasalvaging (Bad) while buffing non-ninja salvaging (good). Why not buff non-ninja salvaging (allowing people to find old wreck fields, and leave ninjasalvaging alone? where does a timelimited wreck ownership nerf ninjasalvageing, it actually turns theft (you simply steal and dont have to fight for it) to ninjaing (because it adds the potential of combat to it).
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.05.28 19:18:00 - [222] Originally by: silken mouth where does a timelimited wreck ownership nerf ninjasalvageing, it actually turns theft (you simply steal and dont have to fight for it) to ninjaing (because it adds the potential of combat to it). It's bad, of course, because right now the ninjas have a free ride and anything that might change that and put some risk into their reward terrifies them. Which really says a fair bit about ninjas, now, doesn't it? May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Antoine Roquentin Spaceship Lullaby	Posted - 2009.05.28 19:50:00 - [223] Edited by: Antoine Roquentin on 28/05/2009 19:51:11 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom It's bad, of course, because right now the ninjas have a free ride and anything that might change that and put some risk into their reward terrifies them. Which really says a fair bit about ninjas, now, doesn't it? Very rich coming from the carebears who are hiding behind concord and running risk free missions in high sec.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.05.28 20:25:00 - [224] Originally by: Antoine Roquentin Very rich coming from the carebears who are hiding behind concord and running risk free missions in high sec. Well, I suppose it would be if I didn't live in 0.0 most of the time and make most of my ISK by ratting. Considerably more risky than ninja salvaging. I do salvage in 0.0 by the way, both my wrecks and others as the culture on such matters is different there. An Exequeror is a fabulous ship for this! And that's risky too given that the rats can kill you mighty fast (never mind the reds and neuts). About the only time I ever spend in Empire is when I have no real time to play and want to get the training bonus from my expensive implants... May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.05.28 20:32:00 - [225] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 28/05/2009 20:32:42 Quote: It's bad, of course, because right now the ninjas have a free ride and anything that might change that and put some risk into their reward terrifies them. Which really says a fair bit about ninjas, now, doesn't it? I repeat: why should missionrunners, yet not ninjas, get free, riskless income? Quote: where does a timelimited wreck ownership nerf ninjasalvageing, it actually turns theft (you simply steal and dont have to fight for it) to ninjaing (because it adds the potential of combat to it). It's not theft. It's salvage. And if you want to get the potential for combat, you can loot; I already do that.
silken mouth	Posted - 2009.05.28 23:43:00 - [226] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 28/05/2009 20:32:42 Quote: It's bad, of course, because right now the ninjas have a free ride and anything that might change that and put some risk into their reward terrifies them. Which really says a fair bit about ninjas, now, doesn't it? I repeat: why should missionrunners, yet not ninjas, get free, riskless income? it is not riskless. Quote: Quote: where does a timelimited wreck ownership nerf ninjasalvageing, it actually turns theft (you simply steal and dont have to fight for it) to ninjaing (because it adds the potential of combat to it). It's not theft. It's salvage. And if you want to get the potential for combat, you can loot; I already do that. if you take something from someone that he made by putting time, effort and material into it, without his consent, then it is theft. ninjaing implies bravery and skill, your actions dont
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.05.29 00:36:00 - [227] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 29/05/2009 00:36:54 Quote: it is not riskless. Technically, neither is ninjasalvaging. Quote: if you take something from someone that he made by putting time, effort and material into it, without his consent, then it is theft. You didn't "make" it. You're stealing it from the NPCs whose ships you blew up. But since CONCORD and the factions don't give a flying **** about them, the wrecks effectively belong to no one. CONCORD/The factions decided that, however, they would give the contractor (that's the missionrunner) the rights to the modules that survived the ship's destruction. TLDR: You only own loot because CONCORD says you do. You do not own the salvage because CONCORD says you do not.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.05.29 01:27:00 - [228] Originally by: Kahega Amielden TLDR: You only own loot because CONCORD says you do. You do not own the salvage because CONCORD says you do not. Circular snd based on current rules, which is the subject for discussion. It either stands on its own merits or it does not stand.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.05.29 02:05:00 - [229] Quote: Circular snd based on current rules, which is the subject for discussion. It either stands on its own merits or it does not stand. Eh? I was responding to someone else, who was making an "I deserve it" argument. You have failed to show that ninjasalvaging imbalances missions.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.05.29 06:12:00 - [230] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 29/05/2009 06:12:30 basically, all the whine goes on because mission runners want the salvage reserved for them. However, the salvage is not intended as additional income only for the mission runner, otherwise its would not be implemented as free for all, CCP stated this multiple times while there is no statement proving the opposite. Hence, we have to deduct the intents from the current (and confirmed!!) implementation of the salvage which says FIRST-COME, FIRST SERVED(to salvage)!
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.05.29 06:35:00 - [231] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: Circular snd based on current rules, which is the subject for discussion. It either stands on its own merits or it does not stand. Eh? I was responding to someone else, who was making an "I deserve it" argument. You have failed to show that ninjasalvaging imbalances missions. I know. I've been arguing both sides and will continue to do so. "CCP say so" is lways an argment fot the status quo but get us nowhere as far as the moral argument is concerned.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.05.29 06:41:00 - [232] well, many of us do not want to get somewhere and like the current status. In my eyes there is no reason for giving the mission runner the wrecks, he is stealing from the NPC corp as well as the salvager, the same applies to the loot actually, hence looting must be possible for everyone too without flagging to the wrecker. Here, 2 concurring parties will never come to a result, actually we could close the thread.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.05.29 06:48:00 - [233] Originally by: Robert Caldera well, many of us do not want to get somewhere and like the current status. In my eyes there is no reason for giving the mission runner the wrecks, he is stealing from the NPC corp as well as the salvager, the same applies to the loot actually, hence looting must be possible for everyone too without flagging to the wrecker. Here, 2 concurring parties will never come to a result, actually we could close the thread. Actuallly an agreementwas reached between two people from either side of the agrument here. It pretty much suggested the bottom 3 points of this post would be acceptable. While I clearly accept that the vast majority of people here will be arguing from a point of self-interest, perhaps a detached perspective would suggest that a more balanced solution than the one we already have may be in order.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.05.29 06:57:00 - [234] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 29/05/2009 06:57:26 well, the eve community consists of more than 2 people :) I see no reason for an ownership of wrecks at all since all of us steal from the NPC corp and there cant be any ownership except of the NPC actually. Your point 3 relies to point 2 of scannable wrecks. Salvagers do not want to scan for wrecks because they are potentially abandoned/sorted/worthless. If I have a choice between probing the wrecks or probing missions runners directly I would take the latter because it gives more profit and the MR didnt salvage large wrecks yet. I'm personally not dependent on any wrecks I make a lot of ISK with trading but mission runners wanting more secure ISK for grinding enrage me.
Real Poison Minmatar Stormlord Battleforce Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.05.29 07:22:00 - [235] we should prolly organize a weekly event where ppl just start ninja salvaging instead of missioning. not everyone would participate but a huge spike would **** off the remaining mission runners that the outcry would be much greater. risk /vs reward? where is the risk for salvage thieves? change the mechanics so after the (successful) salvage cycle the salvage items are placed into the loot container together with the dropped items (if any) so the salvage thief has to steal and deal with possible consequences. at least that would put a stop to those thieves that shamelessly start salvaging your wrecks while you're still shooting rats. salvaging while noone is around would still be no problem and that lowlife profession players could still play their game.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.05.29 07:48:00 - [236] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 29/05/2009 07:48:50 Originally by: Real Poison risk /vs reward? the same as for the mission runner?? Getting shot by NPC? Originally by: Real Poison at least that would put a stop to those thieves you're stealing from NPC too.
Ysandre Aleiron	Posted - 2009.05.29 08:09:00 - [237] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Quote: I'm not sure how much ISK/hr a ninja salvager makes compared to a mission runner. I agree that the salvage of the mission may be of considerable worth but I measure profitability on a per hour scale. Someone ran the numbers in this thread, although whether they are correct or not I cannot say for certain. They did seem to be broadly correct. Mind you - that same person stated that you can finish an L4 in an hour. I can with some missions, but only some. Others take considerably longer, at least for my character with my skills and ships. That was me with the numbers, I just used an hour as an example, but of course with the longer missions you're killing more ships, creating more wrecks, so salvage time would roughly go up in proportion, mainitaing that ratio. And there can be substantial risk to the salvager going in to a mission... especially if the mission runner of that particular mission is blitzing it, or, i.e. worlds collide, you misjudge where the mission runner is and go through a gate too early. Mind you, that would not apply to every ninja salvager, as most probably know how to properly use their overviews, but there are some that don't. There is some form of risk in most everything in eve that can make you isk, from PvP all the way to trading, wether you're risking losing your ship/pod, isk, or just time. Isk does not come without risk, but there are ways to minimize it.
Kol Marza	Posted - 2009.06.06 08:12:00 - [238] WOW, I gotta say something here. First: this is a game. Agreed? Second: I like doing missions and yes of course I have to deal with "salvage Ninja's". Sometimes it bothers me so I kill the wrecks. Sometimes it dont, when I dont care I will actually tell the salvager to hold off till I have at least gotten the aggro and they wont be shot. Did I mention that EvE is a game? There are times when I dont care if a salvager or griever comes into my mission becouse I want to break the bordom that is mission running. I do think that if you get so excited over a game that you resort to being childish you need to unplug for a wile and get some perspective. Oh hey you should check out this GAME called EvE I wonder how much time CCP takes to read topics like this that they could put to better uses. ( like adding better missile launcher effects ). I also think eve is hands down the best game I have ever played, and thats saying something. For those that think that pvp and pve is all that different, you should change your mind. I know it was already stated but I have to state it again. EvE is a pvp game. Some people choose to compete in the market others choose to compete in combat. Instead of trying to fight it out in the forums do it in the game. If you cant beat someone elses ship try and learn from them and next time outsmart them. There are some things in game that could use a little balance, and the salvage thing is one of them. Instead of saying "CCP THEIR LOOKING AT ME"! Try being constructive and give suggestions instead of posting the crap I have seen in this forum. I am in no way saying every post in this forum is crap, because there are a lot of posts are excellent. Oh crap, I just reread this and it looks like im talking with my preteen children. Just one more thing and I will stop being a parent. EvE is a game and everyone should remember that, there isnt anything personal going on here, everyone is just playing the game as they wish. Oh yea and some better missile effects would be cool.
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.06.06 12:11:00 - [239] Edited by: Laechyd Eldgorn on 06/06/2009 12:15:15 There's no such thing than stealing junk(salvage). Stop dwelling in hi sec. Just because I hate hi sec I'm gonna add that you don't own anything floating in space. Mission wrecks originally belonged to npc's which you brutally murdered. They were maybe son't or father's of some other cute npc's. You should be put responsible of killing thousands of people.
Chi Quan Bibkor Enterprises	Posted - 2009.06.06 13:52:00 - [240] to all ninjas: where is your risk? (and don't you dare answer with a question that has already been answered) WHERE IS YOUR RISK? come on and be honest, what risk do you take? a clear 1-line sentence (NOT QUESTION) would be most welcome.

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