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Vince Snetterton
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
179
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 00:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
What will you do with your chars?
BTW, the IF is no longer a question. It is only a matter of when and how.
Soundwave's has made that direct statement in the past week. The first phase of the datacore devastation is only the first step in the removal of T2 mfg from high sec.
I have no clue if he will remove T2 invention or mfg or both. I imagine it will depend on what his null sec buddies tell him is best for them.
And yes, before the null sec zealot propagandists jump in, I am insane, I am posting with an alt, high sec makes way too much money with zero risk, null sec players drive all content in the game, and good riddance to my kind from the game.
Now, to those who have thought soberly about this issue, what will you do? Would you actually try to make a go of it mfg / inventing in low / null, or will you decide on other actions with your char, including lapsing the subscription? goons: "We don't want to ruin THE game, just YOUR game". ex-goon Soundwave: "I don't want to ruin THE game, just the game you THINK you should be playing." |

Derglas Servekti
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 00:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:Soundwave's has made that direct statement in the past week.
Citation?
IF T2 invention and manufacturing becomes impossible by game mechanics in high sec, then I'll probably stop doing it. If I can do it in lowsec, I'll do that. Not if ti is just a way of making me a target for gankers, but if with some precautions I'm able to do it only rarely losing ships I'll probably keep doing some of it. If invention moves to lowsec, I don't know if my corp will want to have a tower there to allow me to invent, however. I'll have to wait and see.
I'm not likely to want to join one of the sociopathic boys' clubs that pass for nullsec alliances in order to do T2 manufacturing, however. So, if that's the choice, then I'll do something else.
(Citation on the "sociopathic boys' clubs" is here: http://mabricksmumblings.blogspot.ca/2012/05/if-this-is-null-goons-can-have-it.html -- yeah, that's a biased picture, and it's just one coalition, but from what I hear things are more or less the same everywhere.)
|

Vince Snetterton
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
179
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 00:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Derglas Servekti wrote:Vince Snetterton wrote:Soundwave's has made that direct statement in the past week. Citation? IF T2 invention and manufacturing becomes impossible by game mechanics in high sec, then I'll probably stop doing it. If I can do it in lowsec, I'll do that. Not if ti is just a way of making me a target for gankers, but if with some precautions I'm able to do it only rarely losing ships I'll probably keep doing some of it. If invention moves to lowsec, I don't know if my corp will want to have a tower there to allow me to invent, however. I'll have to wait and see. I'm not likely to want to join one of the sociopathic boys' clubs that pass for nullsec alliances in order to do T2 manufacturing, however. So, if that's the choice, then I'll do something else. (Citation on the "sociopathic boys' clubs" is here: http://mabricksmumblings.blogspot.ca/2012/05/if-this-is-null-goons-can-have-it.html -- yeah, that's a biased picture, and it's just one coalition, but from what I hear things are more or less the same everywhere.)
Going to take some digging re: original the citation, but he quote has been copied many times in the datacore thread on the first page of GD. Further, watch him in the Ten Ton Hammer interview, the infamous one where he introduced the datacore devastation. goons: "We don't want to ruin THE game, just YOUR game". ex-goon Soundwave: "I don't want to ruin THE game, just the game you THINK you should be playing." |

Haulie Berry
55
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 00:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
I will continue making asstons of money. Actually, I'll probably make substantially more money as the hobbyist highsecbears abandon manufacturing. :D |

Galadriel Vasquez
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 04:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
What's the big deal if he does move it to low or null? Blockade Runners will get you in and out without much hassle. Its not like Null is a shooting gallery is it? I have tin foil hat trained to 5. |

Haulie Berry
57
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 04:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Galadriel Vasquez wrote:What's the big deal if he does move it to low or null? Blockade Runners will get you in and out without much hassle. Its not like Null is a shooting gallery is it?
Yep. Honestly, I don't really see it as a bad thing. A lot of manufactured goods are oversupplied (hence all the whining about margins). Higher barriers to entry would help with that, even if they're relatively superficial ones. |

Stella SGP
200
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 05:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:What will you do with your chars?
BTW, the IF is no longer a question. It is only a matter of when and how.
Soundwave's has made that direct statement in the past week. The first phase of the datacore devastation is only the first step in the removal of T2 mfg from high sec.
I have no clue if he will remove T2 invention or mfg or both. I imagine it will depend on what his null sec buddies tell him is best for them.
And yes, before the null sec zealot propagandists jump in, I am insane, I am posting with an alt, high sec makes way too much money with zero risk, null sec players drive all content in the game, and good riddance to my kind from the game.
Now, to those who have thought soberly about this issue, what will you do? Would you actually try to make a go of it mfg / inventing in low / null, or will you decide on other actions with your char, including lapsing the subscription?
So first you start of your post with such a strong STATEMENT on a piece of information which you have clearly misinterpreted..... NICE!
Then you go on to claim that you have NO CLUE about what your statement was about, then you went on to IMAGINE how it was going to be done..... NICE!
Let me start a thread on something totally imaginary and just claim that it was a statement from a random Dev..... NICE!
I like the way you think! |

Lara Dantreb
New Horizons
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 07:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
After all, why limit it to T2 production ? Remove all manufacturing slots from highsec and POS assembly arrays aswell.
Products should all be more risky to produce... ----á-á Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005-á --- --- -á-á-á-á-á-á WTB Occator Bpo, 110+ Bil-á-á-á-á-á --- |

Ersteen Hofs
Republic University Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 08:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'll try t1 prod and if that won't work well enough I'll cancel all accs but 1 and try station trading, or just quit.
honestly i don't even know why i keep playing any more so if he does that i'll be grateful. |

sg1jack
The Omega Particle
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 08:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
I have built T2 in high sec for some time and I can't see what mechanisim could be used to move it out of high sec.
On saying that there are huge implications for moving it out:
1. Just about every tower in high sec would close down if invention goes unless there just used for ME 2. markets in fuel blocks and PI would be greatly effected. 3, Ammo markets would also be effected.
What I can see from the dev blog is more the removal of AFK datacore mining but time will tell.
Either way I will find a way to continue playing the game in a way that suits me.
To go all tin foil hat on it if T2 Manu and invention goes out of high sec then I would say someone will benifit greatly from it, as they say in RL follow the money.
Tin foil hat removed as over use can result in long term objectivity loss |

Ersteen Hofs
Republic University Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 08:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Quote:I have built T2 in high sec for some time and I can't see what mechanisim could be used to move it out of high sec.
well it's easily done actually.
1. remove all t2 capabilities from current POS equipment and NPC stations. this includes the ability to install t2 BP for manufacturing and invention slots.
2. add new anchorable POS structures that have invention slots and t2 manufacturing slots. make these modules only anchorable in low sec or lower, like reactor arrays right now.
what's so hard about it? |

clixor
Celluloid Gurus
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 09:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
I've given this issue some thought and discussed it with some MD / SCC people.
What i personally think when talking about removing T2 production from hi, unless they want to remove all production from hi (which is unlikely imo) Soundwave is talking about removing the ability to anchor Component arrays in hi, and disallowing to manufacture the T2 components on NPC lines.
As you need to build the T2 components to make T2 (really) profitable this would in turn limit T2 production in Hi.
Although a POS in losec can be defended pretty well (with the new merc system as well) a lot of casual, one man or smaller corp, would drop T2 production due to the perceived risk.
Now, i don't have exact numbers on this, but my guess is a great deal of T2 comes from these small time manufacturers as simply there are a lot of them. If only 50% stops manufacturing T2 supply of everything T2 will be down significantly. Add to the fact that POSses in losec have great implications for logistics (no more POS close to hubs so a JF would become a requirement really) what we can expect in this scenario that T2 prices would skyrocket.
From a CCP point of view this makes sense though, players have to organize (interact) more and i really have the feeling they are working on levelling the PVP playing field making it more n00b friendly (less T2, smaller hulls due to high prices).
|

Ersteen Hofs
Republic University Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 09:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
well as I heard the chinese don't use t2 at all, maybe this will happen here as well.
honestly with the prices t2 will get if this happens, it won't be worth spending isk on over the meta4 components. plus, the faction/desadspace modules will have comparable prices so the only t2 things that will be used are guns and launchers. |

Samillian
Moonshine Industries The Last Chancers.
139
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 09:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'll carry on with my trade and industry alt much the same as I do now, never bothered with T2 manufacture and never needed to. |

Ersteen Hofs
Republic University Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 10:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Samillian wrote:I'll carry on with my trade and industry alt much the same as I do now, never bothered with T2 manufacture and never needed to.
I must say I'm getting very tired and more than a little bored of your ongoing doomsaying and panic posts, world hasn't ended yet and just because there are changes coming it doesn't mean it will. tell that when all the people who do t2 now will begin doing t1 and your margins will shrink even tinier :) |

Samillian
Moonshine Industries The Last Chancers.
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 10:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
Manufacturing T1 is a small party of what I do to make money, comes down to it I won't miss it much at all. In this game it pays to have a wide number of money making options, failure to diversify is short sighted. |

shar'ra matcevsovski
Hedion University Amarr Empire
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 11:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Honestly, if its just the invention that moves to low sec its not that of a big deal. Im pretty sure it would even lead to better margins for the t2 manufactures at the end. Although it would make the entire high sec POS, high faction standng requrements obsolete.
T2 production in low sec only tho, doesnt seem to be very realistic. It would simply change to much at once and the consequences would be even for CCP unpredictable. Since there would be a massive m-¦ traffic between High- and Low sec, it would just overpopulate low sec.
So I would propbably look for a calm low-sec area and do what I did before in high sec. |

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 12:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
Stella SGP wrote:So first you start of your post with such a strong STATEMENT on a piece of information which you have clearly misinterpreted..... NICE!
Then you go on to claim that you have NO CLUE about what your statement was about, then you went on to IMAGINE how it was going to be done..... NICE!
Let me start a thread on something totally imaginary and just claim that it was a statement from a random Dev..... NICE!
I like the way you think!
+1
Amazing 17 replies already based on some phantom citation from a Dev that the OP has yet to actually produce. |

Lara Dantreb
New Horizons
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 12:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Stella SGP wrote:So first you start of your post with such a strong STATEMENT on a piece of information which you have clearly misinterpreted..... NICE!
Then you go on to claim that you have NO CLUE about what your statement was about, then you went on to IMAGINE how it was going to be done..... NICE!
Let me start a thread on something totally imaginary and just claim that it was a statement from a random Dev..... NICE!
I like the way you think! +1 Amazing 17 replies already based on some phantom citation from a Dev that the OP has yet to actually produce.
Wait... It's not idea lab forum ???   ----á-á Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005-á --- --- -á-á-á-á-á-á WTB Occator Bpo, 110+ Bil-á-á-á-á-á --- |

Khoga Zdag
Cats Illegal Strike Force
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 13:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
Why not stop any activities in Hi Sec and WH except flying in noob ships?
If the T2 production (any activities: copy, invent or Manuf) willn't be possible in Hi, I will stop playing all of my 4 acc.
|

Vince Snetterton
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
179
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 13:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Stella SGP wrote:So first you start of your post with such a strong STATEMENT on a piece of information which you have clearly misinterpreted..... NICE!
Then you go on to claim that you have NO CLUE about what your statement was about, then you went on to IMAGINE how it was going to be done..... NICE!
Let me start a thread on something totally imaginary and just claim that it was a statement from a random Dev..... NICE!
I like the way you think! +1 Amazing 17 replies already based on some phantom citation from a Dev that the OP has yet to actually produce.
You want the citation?
Post #88 in this thread. This IS happening.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101697&p=5
goons: "We don't want to ruin THE game, just YOUR game". ex-goon Soundwave: "I don't want to ruin THE game, just the game you THINK you should be playing." |

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
403
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 14:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
To link to the post itself (the number is a link, for future reference):
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1230077#post1230077
CCP Soundwave wrote:Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.
Bolding mine. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |

Vince Snetterton
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
179
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 14:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:To link to the post itself (the number is a link, for future reference): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1230077#post1230077CCP Soundwave wrote:Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system. Bolding mine.
I see, so you are suggesting that this will be another "trivial" nerf?
Sort of like datacore farming, where production is wiped out by more than half? Or Incursions were "balanced" with a small hit of only 10% on VG's, but oh yeah, you now have to complete the entire site with randomized spawns, resulting in a hit of 45-75% effectiveness?
You have to be pretty naive to believe that Soundwave and the rest of his null sec buddies are not coming after high sec T2 production in it's entirety. goons: "We don't want to ruin THE game, just YOUR game". ex-goon Soundwave: "I don't want to ruin THE game, just the game you THINK you should be playing." |

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
403
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 14:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
You mean the datacore nerf that handed it to Faction warfare people, rather than said 'null sec buddies'? FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |

Vince Snetterton
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
180
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 14:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:You mean the datacore nerf that handed it to Faction warfare people, rather than said 'null sec buddies'?
I said the campaign is against high sec. The null sec zealots don't care as much if the rewards go to low sec. These sociopaths know that destroying high sec will cause the most pain, and moves the game one step closer to the entire thing becoming null sec. goons: "We don't want to ruin THE game, just YOUR game". ex-goon Soundwave: "I don't want to ruin THE game, just the game you THINK you should be playing." |

Haulie Berry
57
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 14:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:You mean the datacore nerf that handed it to Faction warfare people, rather than said 'null sec buddies'? I said the campaign is against high sec. The null sec zealots don't care as much if the rewards go to low sec. These sociopaths know that destroying high sec will cause the most pain, and moves the game one step closer to the entire thing becoming null sec.
Sociopaths, really?
You're obviously possessed of a balanced perspective. |

Vince Snetterton
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
180
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 14:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Vince Snetterton wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:You mean the datacore nerf that handed it to Faction warfare people, rather than said 'null sec buddies'? I said the campaign is against high sec. The null sec zealots don't care as much if the rewards go to low sec. These sociopaths know that destroying high sec will cause the most pain, and moves the game one step closer to the entire thing becoming null sec. Sociopaths, really? You're obviously possessed of a balanced perspective.
I came into this forum hoping to gather support to fight the destruction of a style of gameplay for many, many players. Clearly, I was wrong to expect it here.
I will cease to post in this thread. When this part of the game is wiped out, and the null sec zealots are laughing at all the high sec industrialists, just remember this warning. goons: "We don't want to ruin THE game, just YOUR game". ex-goon Soundwave: "I don't want to ruin THE game, just the game you THINK you should be playing." |

Haulie Berry
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 14:50:00 -
[28] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Vince Snetterton wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:You mean the datacore nerf that handed it to Faction warfare people, rather than said 'null sec buddies'? I said the campaign is against high sec. The null sec zealots don't care as much if the rewards go to low sec. These sociopaths know that destroying high sec will cause the most pain, and moves the game one step closer to the entire thing becoming null sec. Sociopaths, really? You're obviously possessed of a balanced perspective. I came into this forum hoping to gather support to fight the destruction of a style of gameplay for many, many players. Clearly, I was wrong to expect it here.
Oh, simmer down, Chicken Little. Things change, it will be fine.
And have you considered the possibility that maybe your obnoxiously dramatic rhetoric may be at least partially to blame for the lack of support you're receiving?
E.g.:
Quote:When this part of the game is wiped out, and the null sec zealots are laughing at all the high sec industrialists, just remember this warning.
Labeling people "sociopaths" because they enjoy a different playstyle than you is ridiculous and infantile and isn't going to win you much support. Every significant gameplay change comes packaged with a horde of doomsayers predicting the downfall of Eve. It never happens. Why would this be any different? |

Salo Aldeland
Luma Operations
30
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 15:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
Well, if in fact T2 production becomes impossible or impractical within high-sec is there any chance that regions of null or low would change their politics to accommodate or attract the displaced hi-sec bears? It is certainly within the power of the major coalitions to make life in Null either attractive or repellent to the current high sec citizens. Even if this does play out as a giant drain of small-time industry away from empire space, I don't necessarily see this as forcing everybody to adopt the currently predominant null sec way of life. I guess it depends on how much of a boon it would be to have the refugee inventors under your umbrella, and whether it suits your plans more than just letting them abandon their efforts in that sector and taking advantage of the market ramifications. |

Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 15:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
IF ( and that's a big *IF*) T2 is no longer allowed in high I'm done. Trash everything (including those T2 BPOs, for you losers demanding they be removed), spend isk on a crap-ton of Machs and Nightmares, trash those, and destroy all toon on all four accounts. No rage, just a final step that would end my desire to play this game anymore.
And yes, I'll be FRAPSing the whole thing for those interested.  |

Reverend Cletis
Synister Mynisters
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 15:41:00 -
[31] - Quote
Me? I'll adapt.
If the game becomes no fun to play. I'll stop playing.
Pretty much like every other change that has come down the pipe. |

Samillian
Moonshine Industries The Last Chancers.
141
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 15:46:00 -
[32] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:I came into this forum hoping to gather support to fight the destruction of a style of gameplay for many, many players. Clearly, I was wrong to expect it here.
I will cease to post in this thread. When this part of the game is wiped out, and the null sec zealots are laughing at all the high sec industrialists, just remember this warning.
Even if I were to subscribe to your alarmist and overheated interpretation of the coming changes (which I don't) your attitude and manner are enough to destroy any support I would have possibly considered giving you.
You forget that many of the HiSec population be they manufacturers, traders and missioners are in fact themselves alts of Null sec and LowSec players and so when you hurl insults at "null sec zealots" and "sociopaths" you are undermining your own support with such bigotry.
I don't doubt this will fall of deaf ears, fanatics never listen. |

Salo Aldeland
Luma Operations
30
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 15:55:00 -
[33] - Quote
Katja Faith wrote:IF ( and that's a big *IF*) T2 is no longer allowed in high I'm done. Trash everything (including those T2 BPOs, for you losers demanding they be removed), spend isk on a crap-ton of Machs and Nightmares, trash those, and destroy all toon on all four accounts. No rage, just a final step that would end my desire to play this game anymore. And yes, I'll be FRAPSing the whole thing for those interested. 
Instead of trashing the hulls, faction fit them and go suicide ganking. |

Haulie Berry
61
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 16:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
Katja Faith wrote:IF ( and that's a big *IF*) T2 is no longer allowed in high I'm done. Trash everything (including those T2 BPOs, for you losers demanding they be removed), spend isk on a crap-ton of Machs and Nightmares, trash those, and destroy all toon on all four accounts. No rage, just a final step that would end my desire to play this game anymore. And yes, I'll be FRAPSing the whole thing for those interested. 
Okay, but... why?
I mean really, have you really considered just how this would affect you?
Hell, if you're building from BPOs? Bonus. Find a station in a nice quiet system off any major thoroughfare, move your BPOs there, contract your hauling out to Black Frog Freight and enjoy. |

Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 16:38:00 -
[35] - Quote
If it does happen (and again, that's a big *IF*), I think it opens up the possibility for a fantastic new Alliance/Coalition to form whose main purpose would be Industry & Market driven, rather than the usual PVP-driven alliances. Obviously there would need to be member corps of pvp'ers for the dedicated pew, but the opportunity to train industry people (ie, carebears) for pvp in a learning environment would be fantastic. Setting aside the tools like the disgraced lawyer, the potential for a new power block in Eve that isn't all about scamming players and whoring KMs I think could make for a better game for everyone involved, but that's just my opinion.
Flaming welcome. |

Andy DelGardo
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 17:31:00 -
[36] - Quote
In my opinion the effect will simply be that T2 gets a lot more expansive, since i personally would just join a bigger indy corp and rent a 0.0 system from a alliance. Than u simply factor in the JF cost for logistic + system rental fee's and add those to the final sell price. I don't really care this much either way since actually i'm a producer and just hand the added cost to the consumer :)
Since the existing 0.0 corps also have to JF there stuff, we end up having just to divide the monthly 0.0 system rental fees, by the number of producers aka used moons in a corp. I mainly suspect that close to highsec and very quite, safe systems will be more expansive to rent than boarder systems or systems that frequently change ownership.
I also predict much higher price fluctuations, since the entry barrier and logistic's are more complex and supply, demand cant perfectly balance itself this way. Since as example it might only be "economical" to JF once or twice a week, so u cant react this fast on supply, demand and also if u do an logistic error u cant simply correct it the next day.
bye Andy |

sg1jack
The Omega Particle
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 18:29:00 -
[37] - Quote
Ersteen Hofs wrote:Quote:I have built T2 in high sec for some time and I can't see what mechanisim could be used to move it out of high sec. well it's easily done actually. 1. remove all t2 capabilities from current POS equipment and NPC stations. this includes the ability to install t2 BP for manufacturing and invention slots. 2. add new anchorable POS structures that have invention slots and t2 manufacturing slots. make these modules only anchorable in low sec or lower, like reactor arrays right now. what's so hard about it?
My bad what I meant was what reason could they use in game that would make sense in a lore kinda way. |

Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 18:49:00 -
[38] - Quote
sg1jack wrote:Ersteen Hofs wrote:Quote:I have built T2 in high sec for some time and I can't see what mechanisim could be used to move it out of high sec. well it's easily done actually. 1. remove all t2 capabilities from current POS equipment and NPC stations. this includes the ability to install t2 BP for manufacturing and invention slots. 2. add new anchorable POS structures that have invention slots and t2 manufacturing slots. make these modules only anchorable in low sec or lower, like reactor arrays right now. what's so hard about it? My bad what I meant was what reason could they use in game that would make sense in a lore kinda way.
CCP Games makes the game, they make the rules. If they want to change the rules, they can do so without explaining it to anyone. And let's face it, the "lore" background for this game is anecdotal, certainly not something that can be relied upon for and firm foundation. |

Derglas Servekti
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 18:49:00 -
[39] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:You have to be pretty naive to believe that Soundwave and the rest of his null sec buddies are not coming after high sec T2 production in it's entirety.
...and you have to be pretty paranoid to take Soundwave's statements and conclude from it that all of CCP is on a mission to gut highsec in favor of nullsec. |

Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 18:53:00 -
[40] - Quote
Derglas Servekti wrote:Vince Snetterton wrote:You have to be pretty naive to believe that Soundwave and the rest of his null sec buddies are not coming after high sec T2 production in it's entirety. ...and you have to be pretty paranoid to take Soundwave's statements and conclude from it that all of CCP is on a mission to gut highsec in favor of nullsec.
Events (and CCP statements) have clearly demonstrated that they want people OUT of high sec and into null. I've said this before: if they want to castrate high sec, they need to just end it. Period. No more screwing around, no more inane taxes, no more pro-Alliance (ie, pro-null) rules, just kill it. Wake up tomorrow, you're in -.3 system. Sansha won, it's now a lawless universe, the lunatics run the asylum. |

Derglas Servekti
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 18:53:00 -
[41] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Labeling people "sociopaths" and "zealots" because they enjoy a different playstyle than you do is ridiculous and infantile and isn't going to win you much support.
...how do you feel about labelling people who enjoy a different playstyle as "pubbies", "noobs", "whiners", and all sorts of other derisive terms?
The one thing that all EVE players agree upon is that "people who like to play this game differently from me are paying it wrong and need to be insulted".
|

Derglas Servekti
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 18:57:00 -
[42] - Quote
Katja Faith wrote:Events (and CCP statements) have clearly demonstrated that they want people OUT of high sec and into null.
This statement requires more support than straight assertion with the adverb 'clearly". It seems to be a statement of faith on the part of many; I'm far more skeptical. |

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:39:00 -
[43] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Stella SGP wrote:So first you start of your post with such a strong STATEMENT on a piece of information which you have clearly misinterpreted..... NICE!
Then you go on to claim that you have NO CLUE about what your statement was about, then you went on to IMAGINE how it was going to be done..... NICE!
Let me start a thread on something totally imaginary and just claim that it was a statement from a random Dev..... NICE!
I like the way you think! +1 Amazing 17 replies already based on some phantom citation from a Dev that the OP has yet to actually produce. You want the citation? Post #88 in this thread. This IS happening. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101697&p=5
Hey and it only took you 21 posts to finally put it up. |

Avvalina
DVA Enterprises
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:49:00 -
[44] - Quote
I and my alts vote 'against' movement of T2 production into low/null sec. |

Salo Aldeland
Luma Operations
30
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 20:14:00 -
[45] - Quote
CCP can do all it likes to make null sec more lucrative than high sec, but I don't really see how it will tip the scales for the average high sec citizen. The impression I have is there's very little hope trying to get very far in null without being part of a substantial group, and to a lot of people the existing groups are really not all that appealing. People aren't going to move out and join a null sec organization if they don't like the culture, no matter how much ISK they stand to make. And they're not going to go out and strike it on their own just to be hopelessly crushed.
Personally, I've avoided null because I've spent way too much time on other MMO's arguing with internet **** heads, not because the rewards aren't worth it or the risk is too great. I'm less enthusiastic about the quality of my spare time depending on a bunch of other people having their **** together than I once was. High sec is a little more boring, a little safer than I'd really like, but at least it gives me the liberty to do pretty much whatever I like anytime I feel like it. I'd probably be interested in moving if I could find an accommodation that lets me operate more or less independently, but as of right now there isn't any real reason for me to go looking for one. |

Telchin Dai
TarNec
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 20:59:00 -
[46] - Quote
"We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec" != "We are preventing ANY T2 from being made in highsec. |

Stella SGP
208
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 02:40:00 -
[47] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Stella SGP wrote:So first you start of your post with such a strong STATEMENT on a piece of information which you have clearly misinterpreted..... NICE!
Then you go on to claim that you have NO CLUE about what your statement was about, then you went on to IMAGINE how it was going to be done..... NICE!
Let me start a thread on something totally imaginary and just claim that it was a statement from a random Dev..... NICE!
I like the way you think! +1 Amazing 17 replies already based on some phantom citation from a Dev that the OP has yet to actually produce. You want the citation? Post #88 in this thread. This IS happening. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101697&p=5 I don't get it. How is it happening? All that was said is in the context of moving Datacores down to Low-sec, so that FW can influence T2 production. How is that in any way removing T2 production from Hi-sec?
Was there mention of removing the ability to invent in Hi-sec? No...
Anyone said you can no longer install T2 production jobs in Hi-sec? No...
Please enlighten me, who said anything about removing T2 production from Hi-sec and how it might be done. |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1361
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 09:06:00 -
[48] - Quote
Stella SGP wrote:So first you start of your post with such a strong STATEMENT on a piece of information which you have clearly misinterpreted..... NICE!
CCP Soundwave wants to move T2 production to low sec and null sec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1230077#post1230077
The qualifier "more" doesn't mean he's not going to do it. Here are ways to move it "more" to low or null, as have already been suggested:
- In keeping with previous statements about moving activities from NPCs to Players, reduce or eliminate the number of NPC invention slots
- Add non-hisec restrictions to POS modules required for T2 production
- Review the functionality of certain POS modules, such as leaving invention slots only in the Advanced Mobile Laboratory and Hyasyoda Mobile Laboratory, and make those structures only anchor able outside hisec
These suggestions are only speculation, but the fact remains that CCP Soundwave has indicated the desire to move T2 production "more" to non-hisec. What portions of T2 production are possible in hisec at present? Those are the parts of the production chain that will be impacted.
So in T2 production we have:
- Datacores
- Invention
- Moon goo + reactions
- T2 component production
- T2 item production
T2 components and items can be produced in a Component Assembly Array. At present there is no restriction on the security level of a system that you anchor a Component Assembly Array in (witness the "Restricted to Security Level Less Than" attribute of the Moon Harvesting Array).
So Component Assembly Arrays would be trivially modified to operate in 0.4 and below.
How difficult would it be to restrict all NPC manufacturing slots to T1 production only?
How difficult would it be to remove NPC manufacturing slots (say, to only provide slots at School and Assembly stations)?
This is, of course, all speculation. But the driver behind the speculation is "moving T2 production more to low/null sec". Given the portions of the production chain already restricted to non-hisec, what is left? Only research and component assembly.
|

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1361
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 09:23:00 -
[49] - Quote
Stella SGP wrote:Was there mention of removing the ability to invent in Hi-sec? No...
Anyone said you can no longer install T2 production jobs in Hi-sec? No...
Please enlighten me, who said anything about removing T2 production from Hi-sec and how it might be done.
Its amazing how a simple piece of information can be twisted to your favored POV.
It's amazing how much you can glean from a simple statement of "moving production more to low/null sec" once you realise that this means "away from hisec", especially when you look at how much of T2 production can be done in hisec. You just have to use your brain, abandon your preconceptions, and dismiss your state of denial for long enough to think clearly.
So stop thinking, "where does he say what he's going to do" and start thinking, "how is he going to achieve what his stated goal is?" |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1361
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 09:33:00 -
[50] - Quote
Avvalina wrote:I and my alts vote 'against' movement of T2 production into low/null sec.
GÇ£The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.GÇ¥ GÇö Ambassador Kosh, Babylon 5
|

Steijn
Quay Industries
46
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 09:34:00 -
[51] - Quote
If this goes ahead as mentioned then I can see some just taking it in their stride and continuing, but others will no longer have any interest in T2 invention/manufacturing. I would therefore hope that CCP have something in place for refunding SP for those who no longer wish to do anything related to the T2 production, but have invested time and money into acquiring the relevent skills. |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1361
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 09:36:00 -
[52] - Quote
Steijn wrote:I would therefore hope that CCP have something in place for refunding SP for those who no longer wish to do anything related to the T2 production.
Just like we got refunds on high speed navigation when the nano nerf came around? Or we got refunds on Electronic Warfare when ECM was nerfed?
I wouldn't hold my breath  |

Steijn
Quay Industries
46
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 09:50:00 -
[53] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Steijn wrote:I would therefore hope that CCP have something in place for refunding SP for those who no longer wish to do anything related to the T2 production. Just like we got refunds on high speed navigation when the nano nerf came around? Or we got refunds on Electronic Warfare when ECM was nerfed? I wouldn't hold my breath 
Neither will I, but the end result will show wether CCP actually cares about its subscribers or wether they are just looked upon as a $$$$$$ machine.
Im certain a fair number of people would not have trained certain skills with regards to T2 production if when they started the game, it had then been in low/null only. So to basically say to these people, 'we are now moving it, if you dont like it, tough, but thanks for the cash', is a kick in the teeth imo.
By all means change it, but give people the ability to use the SP to retrain something which is now appropriate to them. |

Ersteen Hofs
Republic University Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 10:54:00 -
[54] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote: This is, of course, all speculation. But the driver behind the speculation is "moving T2 production more to low/null sec". Given the portions of the production chain already restricted to non-hisec, what is left? Only research and component assembly.
the action of moving datacores to low sec is the movement he mentioned.
the completion of this process would be elimination of research agent system entirely and hence fully relying on fw to generate datacores.
were there any indication about his intent to also restrict manufacturing/invention to non nisec? this is entirely different step in my opinion. |

clixor
Celluloid Gurus
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 12:30:00 -
[55] - Quote
I find it a bit amusing that with every change people are crying that they want their SP reimbursed. Even aside the fact that the entry barrier for t2 is in most cases identical with T1, the skills themselves are not becoming useless. You can do exactly the same activities after the projected changes, you only need to adapt (i.e. moving to lo/null, or organizing in bigger corps).
Players do remain with the choice to continue with T2. This will require more effort, but the rewards will likely also increase.
Personally i welcome the requirement for inventors etc. to have more interaction with other players, as it stands now the whole profession is mainly reserved for the more autistic players in EVE. |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1362
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 13:13:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ersteen Hofs wrote:Mara Rinn wrote: This is, of course, all speculation. GǪ
the action of moving datacores to low sec is the movement he mentioned.
Oh? Do you have a source for that claim?
The statement about wanting to move T2 production more to low sec happened in the thread about data core production being moved to research-with-guns. So it is quite clear to me that data core production is not the end of his "make low sec matter" campaign. If he'd phrased that statement along the lines of, "we wanted to move GǪ" the implication would be that what they wanted to do has been done. Instead the statement is "we want to move GǪ" implying that what has been done is only part of a greater plan.
Feel free to live in denial and refuse to believe that CCP Soundwave wants to do anything more with moving T2 production to lowsec.
|

Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
58
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 18:25:00 -
[57] - Quote
Mara Rinn, I used to get a chuckle out of your histrionic hyperbole, but now it is getting tedious. Welcome to my block list. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|

Stella SGP
208
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 18:48:00 -
[58] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Stella SGP wrote:Was there mention of removing the ability to invent in Hi-sec? No...
Anyone said you can no longer install T2 production jobs in Hi-sec? No...
Please enlighten me, who said anything about removing T2 production from Hi-sec and how it might be done.
Its amazing how a simple piece of information can be twisted to your favored POV. It's amazing how much you can glean from a simple statement of "moving production more to low/null sec" once you realise that this means "away from hisec", especially when you look at how much of T2 production can be done in hisec. You just have to use your brain, abandon your preconceptions, and dismiss your state of denial for long enough to think clearly. So stop thinking, "where does he say what he's going to do" and start thinking, "how is he going to achieve what his stated goal is?" Remember, as a Goon-owned developer CCP Soundwave's priority is to provide the means for Goonswarm to entirely control the game. By forcing T2 production out into low sec, CCP Soundwave ensures that the entire T2 production chain falls into the world of capital and super capital ships. No longer will small corporations be able to put up a single POS and do their own thing. People wishing to partake in T2 production will need to seek protection from whomever lays claim to the space they wish to use. If you're lucky, you'll be able to influence the local militia to install cynojamming. Ultimately you'll end up joining the militia and losing access to your POS any time the local sovereignty changes. On the one hand, the need to fight to defend the play style you like is awesome. On the other, it's going to be bloody infuriating for people who don't want to spend four hours a day logged in to the game just to ensure their low sec system stays cynojammed. So you are 'pre-emptively' whining about moving T2 production out of hi-sec based on some extremely wild speculation because he used the word "more".
OK I guess its everyone's right to pony up fantasies and present them on the forum as if they were fact that have already been announced by Devs.
There is a difference between using your brain for whats real and using it to imagine stuff and thinking its real. |

Lady Starfire
State War Academy Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 18:51:00 -
[59] - Quote
Seems more like he wants: Low sec aka faction warfare to make the datacore through pvp. High sec to do the research to make the BPCs Null sec to produce the moon goo needed.
Thus you don't have production all in one spot, you have the datacores in low sec the moon stuff in 0.0 and it all being mashed together in high. |

Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
34
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 19:46:00 -
[60] - Quote
The thing I heard a while ago was that they were considering buffing invention chances in nullsec to give it a niche. Hisec is even now the best for T1 as the masses of minerals can be moved easily, WH is the best for T3 for obvious reasons, and null would supposedly be the best for T2.
Something that a lot of hiseccers are ignorant of is how badly station mechanics in NPC outposts hinder nullsec manufacturing. A lot of stuff needs to be done in two or even three stations (refining, laboratory, manufacturing), and carting stuff around in a freighter is a lot less of a big deal than in hisec. With this and the troubles of importing lowend minerals, even goons that do manufacturing often just do it on hisec alts.
Buffing invention chance isn't even much of a way to address these problems, and I'm not sure how much it'll even matter as it'll just mean T2 BPCs being made in null and sold to highsec manufacturers. It may actually be a significant thing if the FW changes to datacores increase their costs, as right now the biggest costs in T2 production tend to be the manufacturing costs. I'm sure there's a couple exceptions I'm not aware of but vOv
anyways back to the sky is falling the sky is falling  |

Lady Starfire
State War Academy Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 20:29:00 -
[61] - Quote
Zhade Lezte wrote:The thing I heard a while ago was that they were considering buffing invention chances in nullsec to give it a niche. Hisec is even now the best for T1 as the masses of minerals can be moved easily, WH is the best for T3 for obvious reasons, and null would supposedly be the best for T2. Something that a lot of hiseccers are ignorant of is how badly station mechanics in NPC outposts hinder nullsec manufacturing. A lot of stuff needs to be done in two or even three stations (refining, laboratory, manufacturing), and carting stuff around in a freighter is a lot less of a big deal than in hisec. With this and the troubles of importing lowend minerals, even goons that do manufacturing often just do it on hisec alts. Buffing invention chance isn't even much of a way to address these problems, and I'm not sure how much it'll even matter as it'll just mean T2 BPCs being made in null and sold to highsec manufacturers. It may actually be a significant thing if the FW changes to datacores increase their costs, as right now the biggest costs in T2 production tend to be the manufacturing costs. I'm sure there's a couple exceptions I'm not aware of but vOv anyways back to the sky is falling the sky is falling 
A lot of the time its not even just three stations in between 3 stations each in a different system. It really SNIPPAs your time away.
ONE OUTPOST per system really sucks some times. |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1395
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 12:14:00 -
[62] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Mara Rinn, I used to get a chuckle out of your histrionic hyperbole, but now it is getting tedious. Welcome to my block list.
The last person to accuse me of histrionics did so in relation to my statements in the Research Agent guide about CCP Soundwave wanting to remove RP accrual from R&D agents (August 2011). You can bury your head in the sand, add me to your block list, and tell the Dungeon Master, "I DISBELIEVE!"*
Disbelieve all you want. There are no illusions to dispel.
One day, when you pull your head out of your nether regions and acknowledge that CCP Soundwave follows through with his threats, you can come back to this post and realise that the histrionic screaming you were tired of hearing was your own.
* thanks Jester
|

Zeoxan
Tormentum Insomniae Raiden.
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 14:29:00 -
[63] - Quote
This cant happen for a simple reason, I dont know what soundwave meant by this statement.
CCP is an enterprise and as such his goal is to earn money, not entertain people, if by earning money they can entertain people its ok, much better.
They want to have a lot of accounts active and paid.
I dont remember where did i read that most of the accounts are on hi-sec, this is a fact, a lot of eve players are players that have their little space on hi-sec and do industry cause it entertains them, they pay their acccounts to do some mining at the time of the day they want and build some tech II in a very small scale with their industrial skills and the dont want to be disturbed by anyone else, they dont want to look for cyno logistics joining corporations buying jump freighters and hauling 900k m3 to a null system.
If you take away this, people will cancel their accounts and CCP goal will not be achived, its true that soundwave was a goonswarm director sometime ago everybody knows that but soundwave will be cut off the moment the number of active accounts decrease, so i doubt he will take this step, the step that needs to be taken is not to nerf hi-sec production but buff null sec harvesting in everyway and buff null sec stations.
And plz a BPO to compess mineral not ore plz, its embarassing having to build T1 cannons to move them to 0.0 and produce there |

clixor
Celluloid Gurus
21
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 17:24:00 -
[64] - Quote
Zeoxan wrote:
If you take away this, people will cancel their accounts and CCP goal will not be achived
There is something called long term strategy. One thing CCP learned hard way last year. If they keep EVE more balanced in the long run, they keep their subscribers as well. If they wanted to make all hi-sec dwellers happy CCP could do so instantly but like i said i think this is part of longer term approach.
This T2 change (whatever it'll be) is aimed to increase interaction between players (shoving it down their throats is also a qualification) and as a former largish T2 producer i don't think it's that bad at all. Because, well, t2 is about the most autistic profession there is as it stands now. |

Avvalina
DVA Enterprises
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 17:52:00 -
[65] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Avvalina wrote:I and my alts vote 'against' movement of T2 production into low/null sec. GÇ£The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.GÇ¥ GÇö Ambassador Kosh, Babylon 5 Well then, it's time to make sure that Transport Ships V makes its way into some skill queues. |

Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
93
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 18:00:00 -
[66] - Quote
Avvalina wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Avvalina wrote:I and my alts vote 'against' movement of T2 production into low/null sec. GÇ£The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.GÇ¥ GÇö Ambassador Kosh, Babylon 5 Well then, it's time to make sure that Transport Ships V makes its way into some skill queues.
Getting max skills on Bustard and Crane (for example) is a thing of beauty.  |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1402
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 22:18:00 -
[67] - Quote
Avvalina wrote:Well then, it's time to make sure that Transport Ships V makes its way into some skill queues.
Indeed :)
Any hisec care bear who dabbles in PI needs to know that the profits from low sec PI are well worth the effort of scouting and running around in cloaky ships. There are catches of course, and some people even resort to launching their products rather than picking them up at a POCO.
I have been allowing myself to wallow in the cesspit of hisec care bearing for too long.
|

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
196
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 22:32:00 -
[68] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Avvalina wrote:Well then, it's time to make sure that Transport Ships V makes its way into some skill queues. Indeed :) Any hisec care bear who dabbles in PI needs to know that the profits from low sec PI are well worth the effort of scouting and running around in cloaky ships. There are catches of course, and some people even resort to launching their products rather than picking them up at a POCO. I have been allowing myself to wallow in the cesspit of hisec care bearing for too long.
Really? Have you ever looked at the ship bonuses from the transport ship skill? Basically useless. |

Javajunky
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 00:11:00 -
[69] - Quote
So do you think CCP soundwave is laughing his a$$ off saying let these guys sweat it out angry doomsayers always come up with funny ideas.
Best bet...moon ring mining allows for non-regional goo to get extracted from rings, Tech found in Delve for example. Therefore CCP gets a two'fer, more T2 production in Null Sec and breaking up some cartel I keep hearing about.
...mmmmk'ay?
Thank you for all your doomsday chuckles - obligatory - can I haz your stuffz...
|

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1403
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 01:52:00 -
[70] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Really? Have you ever looked at the ship bonuses from the transport ship skill? Basically useless.
The greater bonus from Transport Ships is at level 1 where you get to fly the hull, fit a covops cloak and run through gatecamps.
The remaining bonuses help you survive a little longer when you get caught because you chose not to send the covops frigate in first :) |

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
196
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 02:15:00 -
[71] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Really? Have you ever looked at the ship bonuses from the transport ship skill? Basically useless. The greater bonus from Transport Ships is at level 1 where you get to fly the hull, fit a covops cloak and run through gatecamps. The remaining bonuses help you survive a little longer when you get caught because you chose not to send the covops frigate in first :)
I guess flying the gallente versions I see zero benefit above 1 considering I'd never even attempt to active armot tank either.
Even shield tanked however, if you get caught you are likely to die. Certainly not something I'd waste taking to 5. |

Katalci
Creative Cookie Procuring Veto Corp
82
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 02:49:00 -
[72] - Quote
I love this change. I'll get to not feel bad about being too lazy to put my towers in highsec rather than convenient 0.0, and make more money due to less competition! |

ivar R'dhak
STK Scientific
46
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 08:33:00 -
[73] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:What will you do with your chars?
BTW, the IF is no longer a question. It is only a matter of when and how. Unsub. Maybe come back in a year when CCP has learned YET another lesson about how they don-¦t understand their game.
IF there still is a game. If there isn-¦t, post a "congratulations notice" on the somethingawful fora.
|

0Lona 0ltor
Red Sky Morning BricK sQuAD.
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 14:04:00 -
[74] - Quote
ivar R'dhak wrote:Vince Snetterton wrote:What will you do with your chars?
BTW, the IF is no longer a question. It is only a matter of when and how. Unsub. Maybe come back in a year when CCP has learned YET another lesson about how they don-¦t understand their game. IF there still is a game. If there isn-¦t, post a "congratulations notice" on the somethingawful fora.
Cry more, if CCP wanted to increase sub numbers overnight they could do so by removing T2BPO now. That would allow scope for many more invention accounts to be profitable while causing the minority of T2BPO owners to rage quit. They won't because at the end of the day todays subscription numbers are not as important as developing the game and the needs of the many do not out weigh the needs of the few.
Sure EVE will lose a few high sec bears with the new manufacturing and invention changes but it's better for the game that EVE maintains a PVP and not a PVE focus. If CCP only cared about profit they would just float the company now but guess what they haven't because they want to keep the game the way they like and not pander to new owners or holders.
PVE bears please just unsub from eve, unplug your network cable and put your freelancer disc in. You can be space king with your bling in that game and when you get popped just reload last save, it's really the game for you. If not stfu move your stuff into low/null/wh and play the game. |

ivar R'dhak
STK Scientific
46
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 14:53:00 -
[75] - Quote
Yo masterbrain, this is the carebear forum. Not CAOD or General where your leet-pvpgriefer sh!tpoasts belong.
OP asked, I gave my honest answer. You can keep talking to the hand.  |

0Lona 0ltor
Red Sky Morning BricK sQuAD.
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 16:19:00 -
[76] - Quote
ivar R'dhak wrote:Yo masterbrain, this is the carebear forum. Not CAOD or General where your leet-pvpgriefer sh!tpoasts belong. OP asked, I gave my honest answer. You can keep talking to the hand. 
Shh now or we'll nerf incursions some more and then take level 4's out of high sec.
WOW is that way ----------------->
|

Stella SGP
209
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 21:58:00 -
[77] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:ivar R'dhak wrote:Vince Snetterton wrote:What will you do with your chars?
BTW, the IF is no longer a question. It is only a matter of when and how. Unsub. Maybe come back in a year when CCP has learned YET another lesson about how they don-¦t understand their game. IF there still is a game. If there isn-¦t, post a "congratulations notice" on the somethingawful fora. Cry more, if CCP wanted to increase sub numbers overnight they could do so by removing T2BPO now. That would allow scope for many more invention accounts to be profitable while causing the minority of T2BPO owners to rage quit. They won't because at the end of the day todays subscription numbers are not as important as developing the game and the needs of the many do not out weigh the needs of the few. Sure EVE will lose a few high sec bears with the new manufacturing and invention changes but it's better for the game that EVE maintains a PVP and not a PVE focus. If CCP only cared about profit they would just float the company now but guess what they haven't because they want to keep the game the way they like and not pander to new owners or holders. PVE bears please just unsub from eve, unplug your network cable and put your freelancer disc in. You can be space king with your bling in that game and when you get popped just reload last save, it's really the game for you. If not stfu move your stuff into low/null/wh and play the game. Oh I'm sorry I thought we were playing CCP's Eve Online! I never realized that we were playing "YOUR" Eve Online! Silly me!
Say since its your game, could you give me some PLEXes or at least cover my sub fees, so I can play "YOUR" awesome Eve Online the way its meant to be played?
Edit - Oh I nearly forgot, are those TEARS I see coming out of your little Inventor's eyes? LOL, CRY MOAR PLEASE! Peasants, Pffft... You smell. |

0Lona 0ltor
Red Sky Morning BricK sQuAD.
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 22:12:00 -
[78] - Quote
Hey after T2 is booted out of high and into null sec maybe I'll get me some discounted T2BPO's in a firesale next time then I'll be able to do T2 manufacture. 
Naming your POS CCP Soundwave gives you 10% boost to T2 Manufacture. |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1406
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 22:20:00 -
[79] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:Naming your POS CCP Soundwave gives you 10% boost to T2 Manufacture.
Simply having your POS in a Sov null system reduces your fuel costs dramatically. What more do you need?
|

0Lona 0ltor
Red Sky Morning BricK sQuAD.
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 23:13:00 -
[80] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:0Lona 0ltor wrote:Naming your POS CCP Soundwave gives you 10% boost to T2 Manufacture. Simply having your POS in a Sov null system reduces your fuel costs dramatically. What more do you need?
A monopoly on T2 manufacture would be nice. |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1410
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 23:52:00 -
[81] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:0Lona 0ltor wrote:Naming your POS CCP Soundwave gives you 10% boost to T2 Manufacture. Simply having your POS in a Sov null system reduces your fuel costs dramatically. What more do you need? A monopoly on T2 manufacture would be nice.
You already have the monopoly on tech, not sure what else you really need. Moon goo doesn't even require more work than taking your blues to the bar for a round of drinks every now and then. Best passive income source in the game :) |

0Lona 0ltor
Red Sky Morning BricK sQuAD.
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 15:24:00 -
[82] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:0Lona 0ltor wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:0Lona 0ltor wrote:Naming your POS CCP Soundwave gives you 10% boost to T2 Manufacture. Simply having your POS in a Sov null system reduces your fuel costs dramatically. What more do you need? A monopoly on T2 manufacture would be nice. You already have the monopoly on tech, not sure what else you really need. Moon goo doesn't even require more work than taking your blues to the bar for a round of drinks every now and then. Best passive income source in the game :)
Yeah but every man and his dog knows that moon goo is becoming an active process this year with harvesting at belts around the moon using new mining ship including a mining capital, when I say active I of course mean active as in bots/scripts as ice mining is an 'active' isk game. So it would be nice to have a T2 monopoly in null sec to compensate. |

Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 04:50:00 -
[83] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:0Lona 0ltor wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:0Lona 0ltor wrote:Naming your POS CCP Soundwave gives you 10% boost to T2 Manufacture. Simply having your POS in a Sov null system reduces your fuel costs dramatically. What more do you need? A monopoly on T2 manufacture would be nice. You already have the monopoly on tech, not sure what else you really need. Moon goo doesn't even require more work than taking your blues to the bar for a round of drinks every now and then. Best passive income source in the game :) Yeah but every man and his dog knows that moon goo is becoming an active process this year with harvesting at belts around the moon using new mining ship including a mining capital, when I say active I of course mean active as in bots/scripts as ice mining is an 'active' isk game. So it would be nice to have a T2 monopoly in null sec to compensate.
Sigh....please provide a link showing unequivocally that said changes are occurring in 2012, precisely as you describe them. or you are a liar.
The null sec buddy Soundwave was seen in a Ten Ton Hammer interview discussing the potential of ring mining, but no date was established for it, no ship classes were established, other than he would like to see some kind of prospector ship. Also, the friend to null sec (after all he did the 2007 goon presentation at Fanfest), was extremely careful NOT to say that ring mining will not still be tied to sov.
It is an extremely safe bet to say that the null sec alliances will maintain the monopoly on moon goo, PLUS have complete control on all high end mins (except for the stuff that comes from wh's), PLUS a complete monopoly on T2 mfg.
But of course, this makes perfect sense, for you null sec freaks. You know, that risk vs reward bullshit. You make 8-12 times per hour what a high player does, yet with less risk. Yeah, LESS risk. I would love to see stat showing how many Hulks were blown up in null in the past month compared to this month in high sec.
Hell, I would love to see how many mining ships are blown up in high sec vs null sec in a NON-Hulkageddon month.
|

Salo Aldeland
Luma Operations
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 13:15:00 -
[84] - Quote
Tessla Coil wrote:But of course, this makes perfect sense, for you null sec freaks. You know, that risk vs reward bullshit. You make 8-12 times per hour what a high player does, yet with less risk. Yeah, LESS risk. I would love to see stat showing how many Hulks were blown up in null in the past month compared to this month in high sec.
The extra income of Null doesn't really come from increased risk, it's a benefit of being able to organize a large group of players. It's not so much risk - reward as cooperation - reward from how I see it, and that's great. The best stuff in an MMO ought to require a coordinated group effort, and one of the great things about EvE is that there isn't an upper bound to how many players you can get to pull together, and so there's also no upper bound to how much power and wealth that group and accrue.
My only real criticism is that there's hardly any middle ground. You're either achieving very little on your own or in a small group, or you're part of a mega group doing it all. That might just be a fact of EvE, that's the way the content is distributed on the spectrum between solo pilot to sov holding alliance and if after a while you feel like you're not getting far enough with your current operation you should consider the move to a large corp. But there seems to be a step missing in the progression. Going from a solo pilot or a couple of IRL buddies in a micro corp up to, say, a group of a couple dozen doesn't really get you anything. You have to go all the way to the other end of the scale before you see benefits.
Or am I wrong? I really don't know first hand, this is just my impression. Worm holes seem to be a little bit of a caveat, but by and large the idea I have is that clubbing together in High sec doesn't really get you anything, and there's no point of trying to operate in Low or Null without a fairly high minimum ability to defend yourself from the large, established groups. |

Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 14:31:00 -
[85] - Quote
Salo Aldeland wrote:Tessla Coil wrote:But of course, this makes perfect sense, for you null sec freaks. You know, that risk vs reward bullshit. You make 8-12 times per hour what a high player does, yet with less risk. Yeah, LESS risk. I would love to see stat showing how many Hulks were blown up in null in the past month compared to this month in high sec.
The extra income of Null doesn't really come from increased risk, it's a benefit of being able to organize a large group of players. It's not so much risk - reward as cooperation - reward from how I see it, and that's great. The best stuff in an MMO ought to require a coordinated group effort, and one of the great things about EvE is that there isn't an upper bound to how many players you can get to pull together, and so there's also no upper bound to how much power and wealth that group and accrue. My only real criticism is that there's hardly any middle ground. You're either achieving very little on your own or in a small group, or you're part of a mega group doing it all. That might just be a fact of EvE, that's the way the content is distributed on the spectrum between solo pilot to sov holding alliance and if after a while you feel like you're not getting far enough with your current operation you should consider the move to a large corp. But there seems to be a step missing in the progression. Going from a solo pilot or a couple of IRL buddies in a micro corp up to, say, a group of a couple dozen doesn't really get you anything. You have to go all the way to the other end of the scale before you see benefits. Or am I wrong? I really don't know first hand, this is just my impression. Worm holes seem to be a little bit of an exception, but by and large the idea I have is that clubbing together in High sec doesn't really get you anything, and there's no point of trying to operate in Low or Null without a fairly high minimum ability to defend yourself from the large, established groups.
It's pointless to try to organize high sec. Here is my analogy to real life.
Imagine you live in a dirt poor country, with few natural resources and tiny means of generating income. Now, the G20, NATO, Russia, China, and the EU have all allied themselves, and have decided to destroy any other means you and the other poor nations have of making income.
Now imagine trying to form an alliance of these poor countries to fight against their oppressors. Precisely what means would these poor nations have to do so?
Open military war? Yeah, like that will work. Economic war? How can you when the major alliances in the world already control most of the wealth and want the rest of what you have.
This is the 2nd last account I have left active. The subs on the rest of my accounts have lapsed, and this one goes bye bye in early June. The only way CCP will listen is through a drop in subs. |

Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc Order of the Void
306
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 17:32:00 -
[86] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:What will you do with your chars?
BTW, the IF is no longer a question. It is only a matter of when and how.
Soundwave's has made that direct statement in the past week. The first phase of the datacore devastation is only the first step in the removal of T2 mfg from high sec.
I have no clue if he will remove T2 invention or mfg or both. I imagine it will depend on what his null sec buddies tell him is best for them.
And yes, before the null sec zealot propagandists jump in, I am insane, I am posting with an alt, high sec makes way too much money with zero risk, null sec players drive all content in the game, and good riddance to my kind from the game.
Now, to those who have thought soberly about this issue, what will you do? Would you actually try to make a go of it mfg / inventing in low / null, or will you decide on other actions with your char, including lapsing the subscription?
You need to link the source to this info. Otherwise, this is just trolling. "The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB |

Haulie Berry
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 18:13:00 -
[87] - Quote
Tessla Coil wrote:
It's pointless to try to organize high sec. Here is my analogy to real life.
Imagine you live in a dirt poor country, with few natural resources and tiny means of generating income. Now, the G20, NATO, Russia, China, and the EU have all allied themselves, and have decided to destroy any other means you and the other poor nations have of making income.
Now imagine trying to form an alliance of these poor countries to fight against their oppressors. Precisely what means would these poor nations have to do so?
Open military war? Yeah, like that will work. Economic war? How can you when the major alliances in the world already control most of the wealth and want the rest of what you have.
This is the 2nd last account I have left active. The subs on the rest of my accounts have lapsed, and this one goes bye bye in early June. The only way CCP will listen is through a drop in subs.
Jesus christ. How do you even manage to get out of bed in the morning?
And this:
Quote:You know, that risk vs reward bullshit. You make 8-12 times per hour what a high player does, yet with less risk.
I'm curious: 1. How much do you suppose the average null sec player's net worth increases per month? 2. How much does your net worth increase per month? |

Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 20:49:00 -
[88] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Tessla Coil wrote:
It's pointless to try to organize high sec. Here is my analogy to real life.
Imagine you live in a dirt poor country, with few natural resources and tiny means of generating income. Now, the G20, NATO, Russia, China, and the EU have all allied themselves, and have decided to destroy any other means you and the other poor nations have of making income.
Now imagine trying to form an alliance of these poor countries to fight against their oppressors. Precisely what means would these poor nations have to do so?
Open military war? Yeah, like that will work. Economic war? How can you when the major alliances in the world already control most of the wealth and want the rest of what you have.
This is the 2nd last account I have left active. The subs on the rest of my accounts have lapsed, and this one goes bye bye in early June. The only way CCP will listen is through a drop in subs.
Jesus christ. How do you even manage to get out of bed in the morning? And this: Quote:You know, that risk vs reward bullshit. You make 8-12 times per hour what a high player does, yet with less risk. I'm curious: 1. How much do you suppose the average null sec player's net worth increases per month? 2. How much does your net worth increase per month? 3. How much do you personally feel you should be able to increase your net worth per month in high sec? A rough estimate is fine, but I am looking for an answer in units of isk here - not, "The null guy gets eleventygajillion times richer than me."
Eve ate my post. Will try again |

Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 20:57:00 -
[89] - Quote
Tessla Coil wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Tessla Coil wrote:
It's pointless to try to organize high sec. Here is my analogy to real life.
Imagine you live in a dirt poor country, with few natural resources and tiny means of generating income. Now, the G20, NATO, Russia, China, and the EU have all allied themselves, and have decided to destroy any other means you and the other poor nations have of making income.
Now imagine trying to form an alliance of these poor countries to fight against their oppressors. Precisely what means would these poor nations have to do so?
Open military war? Yeah, like that will work. Economic war? How can you when the major alliances in the world already control most of the wealth and want the rest of what you have.
This is the 2nd last account I have left active. The subs on the rest of my accounts have lapsed, and this one goes bye bye in early June. The only way CCP will listen is through a drop in subs.
Jesus christ. How do you even manage to get out of bed in the morning? And this: Quote:You know, that risk vs reward bullshit. You make 8-12 times per hour what a high player does, yet with less risk. I'm curious: 1. How much do you suppose the average null sec player's net worth increases per month? 2. How much does your net worth increase per month? 3. How much do you personally feel you should be able to increase your net worth per month in high sec? A rough estimate is fine, but I am looking for an answer in units of isk here - not, "The null guy gets eleventygajillion times richer than me." Eve ate my post. Will try again
I am not going to spend another 30 minutes typing what I lost. Bottom line, I used to live in Pure Blind, which is ****** turf, and I netted, after combat ship losses, 125 million / hour. I have friends who fly in extremely secure enclaves in null, with zero chance of losing a ship, that make well in excess of 250M / hour.
If I could make 50 M / hour in high sec, after all salvage/loot/ mfg costs were calculated, I would be satisfied. But you null sec guys think that is far far too much for high sec players to make, and are intent of trashing the means we have to hit that number: Incursions, T2 mfg, and L4's in pimped ships. |

Haulie Berry
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 21:09:00 -
[90] - Quote
Tessla Coil wrote:
I am not going to spend another 30 minutes typing what I lost. Bottom line, I used to live in Pure Blind, which is ****** turf, and I netted, after combat ship losses, 125 million / hour. I have friends who fly in extremely secure enclaves in null, with zero chance of losing a ship, that make well in excess of 250M / hour.
If I could make 50 M / hour in high sec, after all salvage/loot/ mfg costs were calculated, I would be satisfied. But you null sec guys think that is far far too much for high sec players to make, and are intent of trashing the means we have to hit that number: Incursions, T2 mfg, and L4's in pimped ships.
"You null sec guys"?
My income is almost wholly sourced from high sec. If I couldn't do what I do in high sec, I could do it just as well in low sec or a WH. My income will not be negatively impacted by the datacore changes and may, in fact, be positively affected.
I pull a few billion a week and I'm extremely lazy about it. Also, there's a reason I asked for NAV increases per month - not hour. Your friends who fly in extremely secure enclaves in null are not making 180B. Hourly income from Pewpew is difficult to compare to S&I income.
|

Fabulousli Obvious
State War Academy Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 11:20:00 -
[91] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:What will you do with your chars?
4 accounts, 6 Toons unsubscribed and turning off slowly over the next 5 weeks, that's what.
Money is the only thing CCP will understand. Last words:-á Either that wallpaper goes, or I do. ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900 |

clixor
Celluloid Gurus
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 11:41:00 -
[92] - Quote
Salo Aldeland wrote:[quote=Tessla Coil] My only real criticism is that there's hardly any middle ground. You're either achieving very little on your own or in a small group, or you're part of a mega group doing it all..
I think EVE as a MMO is an exception in ways how far you can come as a single player. In S&I there is literally no limit to how far you want to stretch it solo in terms of the game holding you back. Only time/boredom is a limiting factor. (hi-sec mainly though). To give an indication of how far you can actually stretch it, i was making ca. 1b a day net profit with t2 ships and incidentally some other items.
As a matter of fact, unless you are part of an alliance, ie. building stuff for the 'greater good', in hi-sec there is little incentive to work together towards common goals in a S&I corp as the only goal is to make isk and that is NOT a viable goal enough to hold the corp together unless you are very good friends etc. The social aspect of a R&D corp is also limited, because of logging in/out of alts leaves little room to chat. And if you're done with your cycle, the last thing you want is to explain a n00b corp member how invention works.
So, i tried to advocate this point of view even though i enjoyed my time as a solo t2 manufacturer in hi-sec a lot. SOMETHING need to change to make S&I in a group more viable. As CCP can't change the S&I mechanics themselves a lot, restricting access to resources or artificially making them scarce is a good short-term solution.
Other stuff i can think of is - Corp industry ranking based on sales/production, linked to - Working automatic corp dividend payment
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