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Heavy drone V vs Sentry drone V (or Sentries v Heavies)

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Siobhan Amarr	Posted - 2009.05.21 09:53:00 - [1] Which is better to train first and gives more bang for the buck? Assume a 50-50 PVE/PVP split.
Dictum Factum Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.05.21 10:20:00 - [2] I went with heavies first as I tend to use them more often. Both are very nice to have and if you plan to have both, the order should not really matter too much. Just look at your own drone use and go from there would be my useless opinion.
Elle D The Taco Stand	Posted - 2009.05.21 10:38:00 - [3] I did sentries then heavies and take it from someone who knows: Train Heavies first, then Sentries.
Traderboz	Posted - 2009.05.21 11:20:00 - [4] No matter which you pick, you'll want both eventually. I think Heavy's are probably better to get first. Right now my Matari has only heavy's, but sentry's are definitely on my to-do list to complete my phoon training.
Doc Mexallon	Posted - 2009.05.21 11:29:00 - [5] Also depends on what you fly, really. I trained for sentries first, then realised that having 5 stationary drones is a bad idea if I was going to fly around in an Ishtar trying to reduce incoming DPS, so am now training for T2 heavies.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.05.21 11:32:00 - [6] SENTRY DRONES vs HEAVY DRONES. 1. DPS. A. 5 x T2 ogres on a max skilled dominix do 475 dps. B. 5 x T2 sentries on a max skilled dominix do a base dmg of 450dps but you can fit 1 or 2 sentry dmg rigs that put the dps up to 495dps with 1 rig or 538dps with 2 rigs. 2. Travel time. A. Sentry drones have no travel time means they start doing dmg as soon as you assign them to the primary target. B. In gang combat as you switch from primary to secondary they do not need to travel to each target. C. T2 ogres travel 1050ms at max mwd speed then they slow down and fire, then they need to accelerate and catch the target ship over and over, this reduces their effectivness/dps against moving targets. 3. Tracking vs speed. A. As i said above ogre T2's do 1050ms so any ships that can travel faster than that are immune to them. B. The tracking on sentries allows them to easily hit ships going much faster than 1050ms, even small ships. 4. Sniping. A. With a few drone upgrades on your ship and a sensor booster or two you can effectivly snipe at 100km with sentries, this is particulary effective when you use a ishtar. B. Obviously in most cases heavy drones are ineffective at this due to travel time. 5. Defense. A. Because heavy drones need to orbit close their targets they are much more vulnerable to hostile smart bombing. B. Sentries stay in the spot you drop them so any smart bombing ship wishing to pop them will need to would need to approach them. C. Sentries have around 1500-2000 more raw HP than heavies. D. If you are in a stationary fight sentries can be insta scooped up. DOWNSIDES TO SENTRIES. 1. Mobility. A. In a fight that has you burning around the grid the fight may take you or your target out of the range of your sentries (obviously in such a fast and mobile fight heavies will spend most of it chasing around and doing no dmg anyway so....). B. In a hit and run operation where you need to warp off grid a lot you will not be able to use them or you will lose them when you burn/warp off (again this is subjective as you may not have time to scoop heavies either). C. After a fight (if you win) you will need to approach your sentires to scoop them if you have moved away from them, this can be a bit of a pain if you are in a slow ass BS.
foobarx	Posted - 2009.05.21 12:03:00 - [7] I trained sentries first and started using them for missions. I switched to heavies after training them up, then switched back. The real DPS you get from heavies is quite a bit lower than sentries, both because the raw DPS is lower (after rigs) and because they can switch targets instantly. Also, if you make a mistake and get a spawn with heavies out you'll probably lose a few. Sentries you just scoop. So sentries are much better for missions. Heavies are a bit better for PvP, but not as much as you'd think, since you can put some distance between the fight and your drones, which will lower radial velocity.
Siobhan Amarr	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:13:00 - [8] Originally by: Murina C. After a fight (if you win) you will need to approach your sentries to scoop them if you have moved away from them, this can be a bit of a pain if you are in a slow ass BS. While this is true, i don't really get the "sentries are bad cause you have to go scoop them if you move" argument, since with heavies you have to wait when you recall them anyway. In a RR domi, you're probably not going to move much once a fight starts so as to stay in RR range, and in a ishtar, flying over to grab your sentries isn't that big of a deal.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:29:00 - [9] Originally by: Siobhan Amarr Originally by: Murina C. After a fight (if you win) you will need to approach your sentries to scoop them if you have moved away from them, this can be a bit of a pain if you are in a slow ass BS. While this is true, i don't really get the "sentries are bad cause you have to go scoop them if you move" argument, since with heavies you have to wait when you recall them anyway. In a RR domi, you're probably not going to move much once a fight starts so as to stay in RR range, and in a ishtar, flying over to grab your sentries isn't that big of a deal. I said it was a "downside" not a "sentries are bad cause you have to go scoop them if you move", pls do not use quote marks unless you are actually quoting me. This is mainly cos if you are in a hostile system you can sit on a gate and call heavies to you so its a lot safer as you can jump out if a hostile gang/blob drops on you. Also the drones doiung 1050ms towards you and you burning towards them means you can scoop them quicker if you have been fighting in open space. Obviously if you have been using sentries in these situations you would need to burn off the gate to collect them making your vulnerable, and in open space you only have your shipp speed to get close enough to collect them.
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:31:00 - [10] Train whichever you use more now first. But train them both eventually since they are both very useful. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne

Shinnen Caldari Northern Intelligence	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:58:00 - [11] Originally by: Murina 1. DPS. A. 5 x T2 ogres on a max skilled dominix/ishtar do 475 dps. B. 5 x T2 sentries on a max skilled dominix/ishtar do a base dmg of 450dps but you can fit 1 or 2 sentry dmg rigs that put the dps up to 495dps with 1 rig or 538dps with 2 rigs. Sorry if I sound like an ass when I say I stopped reading here, but I had some questions about "max skilled" It's unlikely you'll have "max skilled" domi, I myself am close to max skilled domi w/ Ogre II's, all I need is Gall Drone Op 5. I find it even more unlikely someone has level 5 HAC skill. It does happen, just not always worth the training time vs reward. Gal Drone Op5, however, it being a ~27 day skill to train, in my opinion it's not worth it at this point for me. I'm not sure, if Gal Drone Op 5 affects T2 Wardens, but if it doesn't then The t2 Wardens have more DPS. Unfortunately EFT has brought about a game focussed around "max skilled this and max skilled that" instead of being realistic. Plus, if there are things that you don't like about Eve, click HERE because it will help.
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.05.21 14:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Shinnen Originally by: Murina 1. DPS. A. 5 x T2 ogres on a max skilled dominix/ishtar do 475 dps. B. 5 x T2 sentries on a max skilled dominix/ishtar do a base dmg of 450dps but you can fit 1 or 2 sentry dmg rigs that put the dps up to 495dps with 1 rig or 538dps with 2 rigs. Sorry if I sound like an ass when I say I stopped reading here, but I had some questions about "max skilled" It's unlikely you'll have "max skilled" domi, I myself am close to max skilled domi w/ Ogre II's, all I need is Gall Drone Op 5. I find it even more unlikely someone has level 5 HAC skill. It does happen, just not always worth the training time vs reward. Gal Drone Op5, however, it being a ~27 day skill to train, in my opinion it's not worth it at this point for me. I'm not sure, if Gal Drone Op 5 affects T2 Wardens, but if it doesn't then The t2 Wardens have more DPS. Unfortunately EFT has brought about a game focussed around "max skilled this and max skilled that" instead of being realistic. well, for one Wardens arent gallente drones, Gardes are. just look at their stats. lowest range, highest dps, and they do thermal. just like all gallente drones. at this time the spec skill does NOT affect sentries, but when this issue was raised with a GM a few months back they seemed intrigued. that may change, but i doubt it. without the spec skill sentries are fine. and sorry so many people say "with max skills"? i guess. i mean hey next time let some EFT you some useful information and ruin it by saying "this is how much dps id get out of them". which is nearly baseless and irrelevant. or maybe the person providing you with USEFUL information could manually reduce skills on the all level 5 skill profile in eft to exclude such skills you deem ineffecient as HAC 5. would that make you feel better? or maybe, and this is a stretch here, if you dont like the free info your being given EFT it yourself or gametest it and get back to us. ------------------------- Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux GREAT CHINESE WALL OF TEXT
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.05.21 14:27:00 - [13] They recently increased drone scoop range so it's much easier to scoop sentries now. If you're serious about using drones at all though you want both.
adriaans Amarr Ankaa.	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:03:00 - [14] i'd pick sentries first, it's what i'm doing next, no travel time has a lot of benefits and its a marginal dps loss where travel time hardly matters. -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr! Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail. QFT!
Daveion Steel Gallente 6thsense Corp Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:36:00 - [15] Originally by: Shinnen Originally by: Murina 1. DPS. A. 5 x T2 ogres on a max skilled dominix/ishtar do 475 dps. B. 5 x T2 sentries on a max skilled dominix/ishtar do a base dmg of 450dps but you can fit 1 or 2 sentry dmg rigs that put the dps up to 495dps with 1 rig or 538dps with 2 rigs. Sorry if I sound like an ass when I say I stopped reading here, but I had some questions about "max skilled" It's unlikely you'll have "max skilled" domi, I myself am close to max skilled domi w/ Ogre II's, all I need is Gall Drone Op 5. I find it even more unlikely someone has level 5 HAC skill. It does happen, just not always worth the training time vs reward. Gal Drone Op5, however, it being a ~27 day skill to train, in my opinion it's not worth it at this point for me. I'm not sure, if Gal Drone Op 5 affects T2 Wardens, but if it doesn't then The t2 Wardens have more DPS. Unfortunately EFT has brought about a game focussed around "max skilled this and max skilled that" instead of being realistic. Yeah you do tbh, I see the phrase max skills more as a template to test something, not really an EFT warrior thing. Most players do not have max skills, you are right there, but to make an easy judgement you think its better that someone lists all their relevant skills instead so the reader can better judge, Max skills is far simpler.
Daveion Steel Gallente 6thsense Corp Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:38:00 - [16] And for mission runers and posibly WH explorers, T2 sentries first imo, For PvP its debatable, but I would think T2 heavies D...
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:54:00 - [17] Heavies, 100% There's a 2 year gap between my training of heavy 5 and sentry 5. Heavies do more damage, track better, and can actually hit NPC frigates. Sentries are meh, unless you're in a fleet engagement or some narrow PvE situations. ----------------- Friends Forever
UMEE Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.05.21 16:00:00 - [18] Edited by: UMEE on 21/05/2009 16:01:24 i went heavies first, and sort of regretted it. in a fleet, you'll find that heavies sometimes struggle to reach the target before it blows up. if you expect an engagement, you can dump the sentries at a desired distance from gate/station, and zip around while they go pew pew. ogres will slowboat around, and many pilots will just shoot them down. sentries do more dps assuming two rigs. wardens and even bouncers can hit from quite far away. in pve, sentries > ogres almost every time (especially wormholes. in summary, i think sentries will give you lots more bang for the buck (but you do need both).
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.05.21 16:14:00 - [19] Originally by: Shinnen It's unlikely you'll have "max skilled" domi, I myself am close to max skilled domi w/ Ogre II's, all I need is Gall Drone Op 5. I find it even more unlikely someone has level 5 HAC skill. It does happen, just not always worth the training time vs reward. I trained HAC V, it's not that long of a train (it's rank 6 like Battlecruisers compared to the rank 8 Battleship skill) so I'll bet more people have it than you think In any case it's worth pointing out that the Ishtar doesn't get a damage bonus from its HAC skill, only drone bay size and drone control range. __________________________________ Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
Footoo Rama	Posted - 2009.05.21 16:42:00 - [20] Heavy then sentry... heavies are way more usefull and flexible, but I would get hammerhead II's before you get Sentries... And maybe even Heavies, esp if you are drone bay limited. Yes I fly a Domi... I use them all.

Liang Nuren No Salvation Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.05.21 17:24:00 - [21] Heavy/Sentry, unless you're training for the Sentry Domi Of Doom mission ship. I've had good luck with sentries, and can't recommend them high enough, but if I could only have one, it'd be heavies. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
4 LOM United Gamers	Posted - 2009.05.21 17:32:00 - [22] Originally by: Murina while sentries would have done around 9000dps in that 20 secs even without dmg rigs 9000dps without damage rigs, dont know where you got those drones but can i have set? I asume you meant 9000 damage in those 20 seconds not 9000 damage per second over 20 seconds. Originally by: Twilight Moon of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.05.21 18:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Shinnen Sorry if I sound like an ass when I say I stopped reading here, but I had some questions about "max skilled" It's unlikely you'll have "max skilled" domi, I myself am close to max skilled domi w/ Ogre II's, all I need is Gall Drone Op 5. I find it even more unlikely someone has level 5 HAC skill. It does happen, just not always worth the training time vs reward. I have lvl 5 HAC, lvl 5 CS, lvl 5 recon and i also have lvl 5 BS in 3 races and i found them all worth training. Originally by: Shinnen Gal Drone Op5, however, it being a ~27 day skill to train, in my opinion it's not worth it at this point for me. Maybe not to you but to others it is. Originally by: Shinnen Unfortunately EFT has brought about a game focussed around "max skilled this and max skilled that" instead of being realistic. I suppose its all about who's reality you are refering to and how you perceve things. Max skills do apply to me in this instance, but even if they did not when you compare 2 systems on a open forum you need a base line to work from and max skilled is the easiest to work from. A lvl 4 domi pilot will give less of a buff to heavy drones as well as sentry drones so the differance and deductions for each individuals skill sets are all relative.
Min Qa	Posted - 2009.05.21 18:12:00 - [24] One thing to take into account that no one has mentioned: You can still use T1 sentries/heavies. Even if you decide to train T2 heavies 1st, you will still be able to use t1 sentry's in the meantime. For PvP, I'd vote T2 heavies first, unless you do a lot of stationary RR gangs in a domi. For PvE I'd say T2 sentries win out. I use sentries any time I can over heavies. Besides damage, I think the sentry's gain more from the jump to T2 than the heavies. Both get a 20% boost to almost all stats. The main benefit (besides damage) the heavies get are MWD speed, reducing the time needed to get to the target. Assuming you are using a real drone boat (with a huge bay), anything farther way 10-15km, and you are going to whip out the sentry's, so 20% MWD speed is only going to give you a few seconds of extra damage. 20% more tracking and optimal, while nice, don't add a lot. T2 sentry's on the other hand, really get a big boost from the 20% more tracking and optimal. This is like getting a omni-directional for free, and can score you better/more hits on most targets. This is a much bigger DPS boost than the heavies get from faster MWD time and tracking/optimal.
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.05.21 20:33:00 - [25] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Heavies do more damage, track better, and can actually hit NPC frigates. Sentries are meh, unless you're in a fleet engagement or some narrow PvE situations. i disagree totally. if your quick on the draw and get sentries out and engaged on npc frigs at 20+km out theyll hit. at that point the transversal is nearly nothing, and the sig radius isnt that hard to hit. my garde 2s hit regularly on frigs between 20-45k. any closer and ill use something else. plus its fun seeing them 1 volley a frig. next useless argument? ------------------------- Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux GREAT CHINESE WALL OF TEXT
Dav Varan	Posted - 2009.05.21 20:55:00 - [26] Heavies first they are far more versatile than Senties. Sentrys are good for PvP in any ship, but in PVE you will need other drone types to complement them which rules out sentries for all but Domi/Ishtar. main issue will be hitting frigs that are orbitting you. Heavys eat them rapidly, Sentry will probably never hit them once unless you move away from your sentry drones. ( you may be webbed / respawns might eat your drones before you get back to them )
Shinnen Caldari Northern Intelligence	Posted - 2009.05.22 10:59:00 - [27] Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux well, for one Wardens arent gallente drones, Gardes are. Obvious confusion was obvious... Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux if you dont like the free info your being given EFT it yourself or gametest it and get back to us. Well I wasn't even looking for free info :/ Plus, if there are things that you don't like about Eve, click HERE because it will help.
Shinnen Caldari Northern Intelligence	Posted - 2009.05.22 11:02:00 - [28] Originally by: Murina A lvl 4 domi pilot will give less of a buff to heavy drones as well as sentry drones so the differance and deductions for each individuals skill sets are all relative. Yeah true, I was actually referring mainly to Gal Drone spec 4 and 5 though. Without Gal Drone spec 5, t2 Gardes actually do more damage. So no need to show off you have all those Spacship Command level 5's :) Plus, if there are things that you don't like about Eve, click HERE because it will help.
Wai Ng'Tse	Posted - 2009.05.22 11:06:00 - [29] Edited by: Wai Ng''Tse on 22/05/2009 11:05:58
Shinnen Caldari Northern Intelligence	Posted - 2009.05.22 11:06:00 - [30] Originally by: Daveion Steel but to make an easy judgement you think its better that someone lists all their relevant skills instead so the reader can better judge, Max skills is far simpler. Yeah it is a good comparison, but in this case, as I mentionned, I was mainly referring to Gal Drone Spec 5. When the OP is going to train for t2 heavies, they most likely won't train Gal Drone spec 5 for some time and whill be left at 4 meaning t2 gardes do more dps... So when you're looking simply at DPS, go for t2 Gardes. Of course, personally I'd also go for t2 heavies first :) Plus, if there are things that you don't like about Eve, click HERE because it will help.



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