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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.05.21 15:52:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 21/05/2009 15:53:56
Citadel torpedo velocity has been buffed massively. New = 2750 before skills, 4125 after. Old was less than half that.
Flight duration has been decreased, maximum effective range remained almost the same. Nothing spectacular here, however, they are now almost invulnerable to smartbombs, because as far as I can gather, their hitpoints remained the same as well.
Previously, a ship equipped with multiple smartbombs (3-6 depending on meta level) could destroy citadel torpedoes flying through its sphere of influence. However with the changes the missiles spend far less time in this sphere and thus have become near invincible to smartbombs.
An overlooked consequence it seems, a very easy fix would be reducing the missiles hit points by 50 - 66%. This would bring the balance between smartbombs and missiles back to where we were pre-patch.
- Sok.
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.05.21 17:03:00 -
[2]
How many hitpoints do they have atm?
But the better question is: For which scenario was it balanced?
There is a difference if you have two small (20-30) gangs or two fleets (100+) fighting eachother. For the fleet it's simple to field lots of smarties, for the small gang each disco ship cuts down other capabilities and eats up lots of cap.
To keep alive dedicated disco-ships is another story.
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Grey82
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Posted - 2009.05.21 17:08:00 -
[3]
No Citadels are already the one of the weakest Dread weapons and can be speed tanked by carries. I never felt SB should be able to kill them in the first place since no other Dreads weapons are affected buy them. If anything they need to fix the long broken Defender missile system and possibly increase the explosion velocity of them not more nerfs.
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FlameGlow
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.21 17:17:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Sokratesz
This would bring the balance between smartbombs and missiles back to where we were pre-patch.
You mean to being totally useless against anything but POS?
They're pretty bad already, have travel time, are speedtanked by f*ing motherships, disappear on siege cycle edges. Citadels need more boosts if anything
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I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.05.21 18:06:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Ausser on 21/05/2009 18:10:22
Originally by: Grey82
No Citadels are already the one of the weakest Dread weapons and can be speed tanked by carries. I never felt SB should be able to kill them in the first place since no other Dreads weapons are affected buy them. If anything they need to fix the long broken Defender missile system and possibly increase the explosion velocity of them not more nerfs.
OMG - dont touch the broken defender system. Hell would open and all missile ships get gimped.
Explosion velocity is also ok. There was another thread about this topic and it was shown citadels can do well when target gets webbed+painted. Even when supercaps cannot be webbed, there is no need to mess arround with explosion velocity, which then would cause other inbalances. Instead, look on the signature radius of supercaps.
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2009.05.21 18:12:00 -
[6]
citadel missile users cried so much about carriers smartbombing their missile and probably CCP gave them some love on this side on purpose.
after all missiles are the only dread weapon that can be nullified with smartbombs
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.05.21 18:13:00 -
[7]
Smartbombs killing Citadels was an horrible flaw which was CORRECTED with this change. It made Phoenixes all but useless against Titans for example. Now they can be ALMOST as effective as the turret dreads against those. It was one of those rare cases were CCP did it right.
Now it is time to fix Citadels in order for them to be able to hit the targets they are SUPPOSED to hit without the need of having them double painted and webbed.
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"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Aoa Lux
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.21 18:18:00 -
[8]
Agreed with TC.
Smartbombs are basically useless for fighting citadel torps now. Is this intended CCP?
Feels extremely broken to me.
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Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
AAA Citizens
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Posted - 2009.05.21 18:21:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Smartbombs killing Citadels was an horrible flaw which was CORRECTED with this change.
Actually youd be wrong, They altered the HP value of citadel torps months ago, so that way you couldn't destroy them all with 2 Smartbombs, but still giving you a chance to destroy some with enough Smarties.
Now that they move through the Smarties range so fast theres, no way of destroying them. So Sok has pretty valid point, and reducing the torp's HP a bit would balance it out.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.05.21 18:23:00 -
[10]
Just use more smartbombs.
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Ideas for: Mining
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.05.21 18:47:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sokratesz
An overlooked consequence it seems, a very easy fix would be reducing the missiles hit points by 50 - 66%. This would bring the balance between smartbombs and missiles back to where we were pre-patch.
CCP didn't want citadel torps to be easily taken out by smartbombs. This is by design.
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
AAA Citizens
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Posted - 2009.05.21 18:52:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Originally by: Sokratesz
An overlooked consequence it seems, a very easy fix would be reducing the missiles hit points by 50 - 66%. This would bring the balance between smartbombs and missiles back to where we were pre-patch.
CCP didn't want citadel torps to be easily taken out by smartbombs. This is by design.
No ones is talking about making them easy to kill, that would be like how it was, when u could nullify a Phoenix with 2 smartbombs. They made adjustments so that it couldnt be done easily but was still viable if u were setup properly. Now its simply not possible. The way I see it, we went from one extreme, to a middle ground and now where at the other extreme of the spectrum. So lets bring it back to the middle ground.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.05.21 19:25:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Originally by: Sokratesz
An overlooked consequence it seems, a very easy fix would be reducing the missiles hit points by 50 - 66%. This would bring the balance between smartbombs and missiles back to where we were pre-patch.
CCP didn't want citadel torps to be easily taken out by smartbombs. This is by design.
Nope.
The hp buff last year was by design. This is a totally unintended consequence of a totally unrelated fix and a change is needed to bring it back to the 'intended' way.
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Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.21 22:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ausser
How many hitpoints do they have atm?
But the better question is: For which scenario was it balanced?
There is a difference if you have two small (20-30) gangs or two fleets (100+) fighting eachother. For the fleet it's simple to field lots of smarties, for the small gang each disco ship cuts down other capabilities and eats up lots of cap.
To keep alive dedicated disco-ships is another story.
The scenario for which missile hitpoints were rebalanced was to make them survive smartbombs - it was too easy to stick a single smartbomb on a Mothership and eliminate the firepower of every Phoenix and cut every Nag's in half.
the aim was not to eliminate smartbombs as a defense IIRC but to force the choice as to whether you used that (and fielded a dedicated dicso ship) or not.
As an additional factor Defender missiles now have less time to intercept and fewer can be fired in the flight of a single torp - so they'll have far more trouble taking citadels out too.
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Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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Veebora
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.21 23:59:00 -
[15]
I really don't think smartbombs should be used as counter to torpedoes.
What is the counter for projectiles, why should a torpedo has more counters than speed tanking?
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Slave 2739FKZ
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Posted - 2009.05.22 00:20:00 -
[16]
What the frack is wrong with soem of you people? Leave citadels alone, they are allready too much of a disadvantage agaisnt other dread weapons. Should we start crying how unbalanced are Revelation?
jeez... cry me a river when otehr dread weapons are affected by smartbombs.
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Zolian
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Posted - 2009.05.22 01:13:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jacob Holland
The scenario for which missile hitpoints were rebalanced was to make them survive smartbombs - it was too easy to stick a single smartbomb on a Mothership and eliminate the firepower of every Phoenix and cut every Nag's in half.
the aim was not to eliminate smartbombs as a defense IIRC but to force the choice as to whether you used that (and fielded a dedicated dicso ship) or not.
As an additional factor Defender missiles now have less time to intercept and fewer can be fired in the flight of a single torp - so they'll have far more trouble taking citadels out too.
Forget about defenders. No capital ship will ever fit them and apart from POS there's no point shooting anything else in a Phoenix.
I see no problem with this indirect buff because as others have said citadels are the worst dread weapon and can use all the help they get.
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Gavin Darklighter
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.05.22 04:52:00 -
[18]
Being able to smart-bomb capital torpedoes was bad game design to start with. Dreads in siege-mode are immune to tracking disruption, so IMO a citadel torpedo fired from siege-mode should be immune to bombs.
signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.05.22 09:40:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter
Being able to smart-bomb capital torpedoes was bad game design to start with. Dreads in siege-mode are immune to tracking disruption, so IMO a citadel torpedo fired from siege-mode should be immune to bombs.
I'd like to hear CCP's opinion about it. If they declare they want them to be immune, all's good, otherwise, they need to fix it.
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Miyamoto Uroki
Caldari
Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:00:00 -
[20]
Would be nice to hear CCP's standpoint, yeah.
My opinion is, that it shouldn't be possible to destroy citadel torps with smartbombs at all. So it's fine atm.
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Rip Striker
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:17:00 -
[21]
If you want to take out dreads in siege, deploy your own dreads. Why should a bunch of smartbombing pansies who can warp away anytime they want be given such an advantage?
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.05.22 14:54:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Rip Striker
If you want to take out dreads in siege, deploy your own dreads.
It's a strategic decision. Dreads are sitting ducks, so maybe you want to deploy your carrier or bs fleet instead. Or the target dreads are inside hostile cynojammed system. Then you cannot field caps at all.
Originally by: Rip Striker
Why should a bunch of smartbombing pansies who can warp away anytime they want be given such an advantage?
Most time you will be bubbled, so warping away is not an option.
The advantage to field discos also has drawbacks. Take a look on such a disco fitting then you will understand. A disco never is a standalone unit, it's part of a group of dedicated ships with special fits. It needs effort and lots of care to keep it operating and alive, especially when it's webbed+painted and sieged by dreads. You also accept friendly fire for your blob which shall be protected by the discos. But if handled properly disco ships are awesome and worth the trouble.
I cannot understand the position of some ppl why 'citadels should be totally immune to smarties'. Enough disco ships should have the chance to significantly reduce the number of citadells slipping through the sphere of death.
What will be next? Whining like 'waaah citadels are immune to smarties - but my ogres instapop near discos, even when my moros is in siege. let the drones be immune while in siege mode' will be next.
However, the enhanced immunity of citadels just affects smaller gangs, and only if the foe has significant number of phoenix fielded. In large scale you will just field more discos to compensate - with some funny side effects when ganking fighters/drones and with more trouble for the foe to webb/scramble them all to keep them away from own blob. Have fun. 
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Shadow Devourer
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Posted - 2009.05.22 15:08:00 -
[23]
This right here is a carrier whine thread.
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2009.05.22 15:47:00 -
[24]
Do tracking disruptors work on dreads in siege?
Why should citadel torpedoes be vulnerable to smartbombs while dread is in siege?
Now out of siege it's different but when a phoenix/naglfar is in siege it shouldn't be possible to nullify any damage they do.
-reduce hp of citadel
-add hp buff for citadels to siege module
-- stuff -- |
1600 RT
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Posted - 2009.05.22 16:06:00 -
[25]
your moros can use sentry drones and be invulnerable to smartbombs too
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.05.22 16:41:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Do tracking disruptors work on dreads in siege?
Why should citadel torpedoes be vulnerable to smartbombs while dread is in siege?
Now out of siege it's different but when a phoenix/naglfar is in siege it shouldn't be possible to nullify any damage they do.
-reduce hp of citadel
-add hp buff for citadels to siege module
Diffrent weapon systems have diffrent properties. Ships in the same class never were supposed to be equivalent replacement. If a pilot does not like the drawbacks XYZ of ship A, then he can skill for ship B, which has drawbacks UVW. Look at Dominix and Scorpion, two great examples how diffrent ships can be and how they evolved over the history of eve. They werent allways like they are now, you remember?
To nullify the dmg of citadels is not how it should be. Like it should not be possible to deliver full dmg in all situations. It should be possible to intercept part of the damage, depending on the effort that is spent.
The problem with too reliable delivery of citadels has something to do with alpha capability (which is really great, difficult but possible to use).
There are some solutions to this smartbomb./.citadel issue:
Nerf citadel hp too much - would again nullify dmg in disco spheres. So it's not that good.
Nerf citadel speed again - would be stupid too.
Nerf rof of citadel launchers so they fire twice citadels in the same time but each with halved dmg - really stupid idea since it removes the cool threat of alphastrike gank from game, one of the unique features of Phoenix is its verry low rof.
Change smartbombs a little and also adapt citadel hp along - i'll show below how this could look like.
To design a smartbomb wich let's pass part of incomming missiles we need to change the uniformity of the sphere of death it emits. From roleplaying view, there would be areas with high and low energy concentration within the explosion cloud.
So each target within range, gets dmg between e.g. 10% and 190% of the base damage of the smartbomb. This random variation is individually calculated for each target and each pulse.
E.g. if a citadel torpedo has same hitpoints like the smartie base dmg, then it has a chance of 50% to be destroyed if in range of the smartie while a pulse is emitted. If there are 10 citadel torpedoes, then five would be destroyed and five would pass. This is just an example - the numbers would have to be balanced.
So now we have a chance parts of the citadels will pass the sphere of death. On the other hand, the long term dmg output of the smartbomb is still the same.
On the implementation side, this change is easy to code, because it just needs one random generator query per target, multiplied by the variation and base damage which is then added to the base dmg to get the resulting dmg to apply to the target. It adds the attribute 'damage variation' to energy pulse weapons (and maybe also to bombs).
This mechanism could also be applied to ddd's - there would be no guarantee to survive a dd even when enough ehp are present - on the other hand, there is no guarantee you gank all bs on grid even if you know they all have not the ehp to buffer the dd strike. They could die all but they could also survive all. And if all but a few die, they who survive could be the ones who are able to tackle your titan... More thrill = more fun :)
Is this suggestion now in the direction, which comes closer to what could be accepted by the citadel-faction?
Any comments on random variation of dmg output of smarties?
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.05.22 16:41:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Shadow Devourer
This right here is a carrier whine thread.
This right here is me telling you to gtfo.
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.05.22 16:49:00 -
[28]
Originally by: 1600 RT
your moros can use sentry drones and be invulnerable to smartbombs too
Aye. Usually a good solution. It works if the disco is webbed or the target is too far away for capital energy transfer to feed the disco. If the moros is blobbed and lots of hostile sentries are deployed there, then it's worth to drop a bomb with a stealth bomber. Ignore it otherwise.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.05.22 17:09:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 22/05/2009 17:11:54
doom torp:
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=17863
1920 HP
*cough* there's still defender missles -.-
dealing 70dmg each \o/
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putting the gist back into logistics |
Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.05.22 17:37:00 -
[30]
Citadels actually starting to be useful?? o nooes, eve IS DYING 
I like the new changes, amkes Phoenix a better option then it nused to be.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.05.22 20:12:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 22/05/2009 20:12:37
There is no possible justification for smartbombs to nullify 100% of a phoenix damage against their intended targets (capitals) while NOTHING does the same to the other dread's weapon systems.
If speed tanking shoudl work against capitals is argueable, if smartbombs should destroy them is NOT. The way things are now is the way it should be.
Nothing to fix here, move around.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Rip Striker
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Posted - 2009.05.22 20:38:00 -
[32]
Nerf the disco pansies in EVE.
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JonnyKay
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.05.22 20:55:00 -
[33]
This thread proves once again that no matter what gets changed there's always people somewhere calling for it to be nerfed back down again...
Missiles are underpowered in general because they're the only weapon system where their damage can be directly reduced from using other weapons against them..
Citadel torps moved far too slow originally for them to be effective at range, it's even worse that the missiles could be easily shot down using smartbombs negating a large portion of the caldari dread's damage.
It may have been an unintended result from the citadel velocity buff, but it's VERY welcome.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.22 21:19:00 -
[34]
Originally by: JonnyKay
This thread proves once again that no matter what gets changed there's always people somewhere calling for it to be nerfed back down again...
Missiles are underpowered in general because they're the only weapon system where their damage can be directly reduced from using other weapons against them..
Citadel torps moved far too slow originally for them to be effective at range, it's even worse that the missiles could be easily shot down using smartbombs negating a large portion of the caldari dread's damage.
It may have been an unintended result from the citadel velocity buff, but it's VERY welcome.
This.
I just hope they manage to buff the explosion velocity soon as well.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
AnzacPaul
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Posted - 2009.05.24 07:59:00 -
[35]
why do people always manage to whinge when the one underpowered pvp race in the game, actually gets a buff which gives it a little nudge in the right direction. Leave citadel torps alone, or allow smartbombs to nullify all weapons, oh but wait that wouldnt be fair, cause then your race would get nerfed too.
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Hexor V
I.M.M
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Posted - 2009.05.24 10:33:00 -
[36]
Allow me to be as productive as the previous post yapping about races.
BOOST FALCON
BOOST FALCON
BOOST FALCON
BOOST FALCON
BOOST FALCON
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.24 15:27:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 24/05/2009 15:31:15
Originally by: Sokratesz
Previously, a ship equipped with multiple smartbombs (3-6 depending on meta level) could destroy citadel torpedoes flying through its sphere of influence.
Unintended imbalance !
Quote:
However with the changes the missiles spend far less time in this sphere and thus have become near invincible to smartbombs.
I don't think they will become near invicible, therefore there is still the imbalance, but only a little reduced.
Quote:
An overlooked consequence it seems, a very easy fix would be reducing the missiles hit points by 50 - 66%. This would bring the balance between smartbombs and missiles back to where we were pre-patch.
No, that's a stupid proposal, you ask to get the imbalance back to red level. As someone mentioned above, tracking disruptors don't work for other dreads in siege, their charges aren't killed by smartbombs, for being balanced citadel torpedos shouldn't be killed by smartbombs at all. This should be introduced asap.
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.05.24 15:32:00 -
[38]
Thanks to the post above me for making me blind.
___________________________________________
Haruhiist since December 2008
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Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.05.24 15:35:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Blane Xero
Thanks to the post above me for making me blind.
The blue did it for me.
As far as the OP, I personally think it's a good change.
Regards
Mag |
Melissa Sparks
Amphysvena
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Posted - 2009.08.14 05:44:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Edited by: Sokratesz on 21/05/2009 15:53:56
Citadel torpedo velocity has been buffed massively. New = 2750 before skills, 4125 after. Old was less than half that.
Flight duration has been decreased, maximum effective range remained almost the same. Nothing spectacular here, however, they are now almost invulnerable to smartbombs, because as far as I can gather, their hitpoints remained the same as well.
Previously, a ship equipped with multiple smartbombs (3-6 depending on meta level) could destroy citadel torpedoes flying through its sphere of influence. However with the changes the missiles spend far less time in this sphere and thus have become near invincible to smartbombs.
An overlooked consequence it seems, a very easy fix would be reducing the missiles hit points by 50 - 66%. This would bring the balance between smartbombs and missiles back to where we were pre-patch.
- Sok.
So you basically want Citadel Torpedoes to be more useless than they already are. Even with the recent boost they still suck when shooting at moving ships (including other capital ships). They have the lowest DPS, and you still want them to be vulnerable to smartbombs. No my friend, they should be really invincible or at least VERY hard to destroy. Dreadnoughts are meant to be anti-capital ships besides anti-installation ships. If you fuc* up the only thing we dread pilots can do, what else is left for us?
We are talking about ships that cost 1500 million ISK and MANY months of training to draw their full potential, and you want them to be nullified by a single setup of smarbombs.
NO THANKS.
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Aranis Nax
Minmatar
Seraphim Blades
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Posted - 2009.08.14 08:02:00 -
[41]
Why allow someone to counter citadels if one can't counter dread guns? If tracking disruptors worked on sieged dreads I would definately support this, but as it is with EW on sieged dreads I don't think it's justified a Phoenix can be completely neutered with smartbombs(and Naglfar partly).
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Issea
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Posted - 2009.08.14 17:43:00 -
[42]
Make torps immune to smartbombs, problem fixed.
No other weapons are nullified by disco - why should the phoenix be limited to shooting defenceless pos's?
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Cupcake Girl
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Posted - 2009.08.15 12:28:00 -
[43]
the whole reason why they were sped up was because they were being smartbombed out of existence and because they couldn't do any more than about half damage on other dreads if they were moving, iirc.
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