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cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.05.22 23:45:00 - [1] I have data from all the IPO/bond launches since Jan 1st 2007. In that time EVERY unknown (new player to MD with no recognised reputation) who has refused an audit has SCAMMED, wait for it.... 100% of the time. When are investors going to learn that throwing money at new businesses without thorough checking is as good as the Jita "send me ISK and I return 2:1". Any new business that launches who: 1. Refuses audit 2. Has audit done by unknown or friend 3. Gets surly to your legit questions 4. Asks you to leave thread ("nothing constructive to say please leave, etc") 5. Locks thread Don't invest. I can't say that, but if you do invest at least be careful what you invest in. Over 500B has been scammed in the last 30 months in this forum. Please notice that most of the old timers on the MD forum have learnt the hard way from poor investments and have stayed well clear of the obvious scams. Most checks performed on new IPO's aren't done to cause trouble but to reduce our risk of being scammed. All new IPO's/bonds HAVE to be treated as SCAM until proven otherwise. The questioning and abuse might seem harsh but it sorts the true CEO's from the scammers. What do I know, invest away and lose your cash!!!
Dzil Caldari Second Quadrant Ice Division	Posted - 2009.05.23 00:04:00 - [2] That is a pretty powerful statistic. Could you share the specifics? I'd like to audit your research, if you don't mind ;) ------------------------------ In EVE, when someone undercuts you, they're a lemming. When you undercut someone else, it's skill/effort/manipulation.
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.05.23 00:06:00 - [3] This won't stop the morons who invest like so: "GEEZ U PEOPLEZ R SO MEAN 2 HIM STUPID ELITISTS. i'll take 50 shares :) :) :) you seem trustwurthy willing to trust u :)"
Vikarion Caldari White Rose Society	Posted - 2009.05.23 00:15:00 - [4] The first and most important illusion to dispel when investing is that you are somehow "special". In short, most of us go around with an unconscious belief that we are somehow better at making judgments than the rest of the crowd, and that our perceptive abilities and our charm will enable us to recognize scams. Second, the idea that people are good or decent leads one into many snares. Many will say that they think others are scumbags, yet expect non-evil results. To invest wisely, you must truly accept that all people are self-interested rather than charitable. My guidelines, anyway.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries	Posted - 2009.05.23 00:43:00 - [5] nice write up cosmo. thanks for taking the time to do this, reported for lack of glue. also, only one thing i disagree with, you dont have to treat every new IPO/Bond as a scam. that is what created this sour atmosphere in the MD. you should however be critical and ask questions etc. but thats not the same as calling every new IPO/Bond manager a scammer. personally i was very offended the first time i came here, and was called a scammer. why? because its so far away from my person, and its an attack on my integrity. however feel free to launch attacks at business plans etc. nice job cosmo... Quote: The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE Cult of War	Posted - 2009.05.23 00:56:00 - [6] Originally by: Ji Sama only one thing i disagree with, you dont have to treat every new IPO/Bond as a scam. that is what created this sour atmosphere in the MD. you should however be critical and ask questions etc. but thats not the same as calling every new IPO/Bond manager a scammer. personally i was very offended the first time i came here, and was called a scammer. why? because its so far away from my person, and its an attack on my integrity. however feel free to launch attacks at business plans etc. Agreed. Its perfectly acceptable to think of all offerings as scams until proven otherwise but actually calling what is in fact a poor but legitimate first a attempt a scam can drive off people that actually have something to contribute and just generally degrades the forum and any sense of decorum it has left. I realize I have not exactly helped the sour atmosphere lingering over MD but that doesn't mean I want it that way. That said, it's hard to treat the sixth or seventh terrible thread of the day with kid gloves.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.05.23 01:01:00 - [7] Not being scammed is too much work. Its one of the reasons I am semi retired now. I have never been scammed before, mostly because I am extremely paranoid but it gets to you after a while, always checking and always looking is exhausting.
RJ Nobel	Posted - 2009.05.23 01:28:00 - [8] Originally by: Dzil That is a pretty powerful statistic. Could you share the specifics? I'd like to audit your research, if you don't mind ;) Seconded. I've been collecting similar data, but not for that long. Evemail me if you'd prefer to not publish the data. Otherwise, thanks for the thread. I wouldn't have thought that investors would ever have to justify their evaluation criteria, but your numbers ought to help a few people better understand things.
Gabriel Virtus hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.05.23 01:29:00 - [9] Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 23/05/2009 01:31:37 While we are letting the cynicism run rampant, you might as well say this: Q: How to get 100M in EVE secondary market? A: Start with 1B Even with all said bases covered in OP thread, the chance to scam seems very high >< . Makes me wonder why anyone would invest in the first place. Chance to lose seems much larger than any of the piddlewinks interest that is currently being offered by most Bonds/IPOs The title of the post should be "How to lose your money (invest at all)" -GV Edit: Added in a couple more sprinkles of cynicism
RJ Nobel	Posted - 2009.05.23 01:57:00 - [10] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Makes me wonder why anyone would invest in the first place. C Personally, I enjoy looking for investments as a hobby. It's not much different than running a fantasy stock portfolio. The IPO/bonds offered in MD are interesting to read through, critique, and occassionally invest in. I've heard MD referred to as a forum for roleplaying capitalists. Unfortunately, for every imaginary tycoon, you have five imaginary scam artists, hence the "rampant cynicism". Unlike some people, I'm not offended by scammers. It's kind of like playing cops-n-robbers - everyone has a side to be on, but it's just a game. To answer your question: You should invest, or at least consider investing, if it's FUN.
eVaLF Delivery Luck	Posted - 2009.05.23 02:15:00 - [11] I still have some isk for you :) ----- POS FUEL DELIVERY & HIGH & LOW SEC FREIGHTER SERVICES
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.05.23 02:26:00 - [12] I would say you got everything correct there cosmo.. Just personally I would differentiate a LOT between "expecting" a scam, and overtly and repeatedly stating and claiming an IPO to be a scam. A bit of a dif between an accused party and a suspect. In this harsh environment ALL are on the suspect list until cleared of all charges, but we could be a bit more civil in the way this suspicion is raised. The torches and pitchfork approach is damaging to growth of the secondary markets. </rant> - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company	Posted - 2009.05.23 02:46:00 - [13] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania The torches and pitchfork approach is damaging to growth of the secondary markets. No, this is what prevents others from blatantly damaging the secondary market as much. The market becomes more healthy the safer it is, and the entry barrier for safe(ish) profit is lower. This is damaged by scams and failed ventures. However, the secondary market will only grow as healthy as its supporting structure. Since CCP will give us none, it's entirely up to the community to do what it can. Despite people being emotionally abused on MD, it's what is best for the market. I know you and others want things to be more sunshine and roses, but you're talking about giving money to people without game-based assurances in one of the harshest pvp MMOs in existence. By definition, we need to be brutal. Wanting things to not be brutal is working against your goal of a healthier market.
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.05.23 02:56:00 - [14] You could have said that way shorter. "I must be cruel only to be kind, thus bad begins and worse remains behind" Still claiming that bullying and bad tude is good for business is not just a wrong assumption, its a barrier for game experiences. We want the entry to be full of trials and a good gauntlet running, not a berlin wall (to the younger crowd) - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.05.23 04:16:00 - [15] Edited by: corestwo on 23/05/2009 04:16:13 Originally by: Caleb Ayrania You could have said that way shorter. "I must be cruel only to be kind, thus bad begins and worse remains behind" Still claiming that bullying and bad tude is good for business is not just a wrong assumption, its a barrier for game experiences. We want the entry to be full of trials and a good gauntlet running, not a berlin wall (to the younger crowd) Not to derail but is this really such "ancient" history that the link would be necessary? ------------- Goonfleet Investment Banking - Bringing you the spoils of Delve! Search Corestwo and Goonfleet Investment Banking under "issued by" on contracts for the current item list!
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2009.05.23 04:34:00 - [16] Originally by: corestwo Edited by: corestwo on 23/05/2009 04:16:13 Originally by: Caleb Ayrania You could have said that way shorter. "I must be cruel only to be kind, thus bad begins and worse remains behind" Still claiming that bullying and bad tude is good for business is not just a wrong assumption, its a barrier for game experiences. We want the entry to be full of trials and a good gauntlet running, not a berlin wall (to the younger crowd) Not to derail but is this really such "ancient" history that the link would be necessary? I'm afraid so. As a teacher I can tell you that most of my students MIGHT have heard about the Berlin wall but would have no idea wtf the deal was with it. One of my students had to complete EOI testing (end of instruction) and he asked me what the "New Deal" was and why it was a big deal. I was amazed to learn that his history class didn't get past WW1 because they ran out of time in the school year (they always had time for movies though). He had heard of Vietnam simply because of the jokes made on shows like Southpark or other such TV shows. In short, don't overestimate the intelligence and knowledge of youth. Oh and BTW, most of my students range in age from 16-22. Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
Ricdics Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.05.23 04:36:00 - [17] Something just as important a statistic. Of all the audits performed in the history of the MD forums, none have stolen any personal data or used them for their own benefit. So for all those people using the excuse "they might steal my trade routes", this is a non issue when using this statistic combined with the one at the top with Cosmoray.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2009.05.23 06:06:00 - [18] Do the people who invest in auditless ipo/bonds even read these threads? Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Vikarion Caldari White Rose Society	Posted - 2009.05.23 06:18:00 - [19] Originally by: Professor Leech Do the people who invest in auditless ipo/bonds even read these threads? It is doubtful. I've found that ignorance combined with arrogance tends to breed continued arrogance.
Khatrina Entara Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.23 06:31:00 - [20] While I might be rather new to the trading (And I was never very big on forum posting until recently so I'm quite the unknown person with a three day old trading character) scene myself I know quite a few people who have been wanting to launch an IPO/Bond (or whatever you bigwig investors call it) but refuse to do so just because of the way new IPO's are treated. Seems to me that with the way things are being treated the only people willing to launch an IPO are the ones wanting to scam.
Kaiserf	Posted - 2009.05.23 06:48:00 - [21] Hi cosmoray, Thanks for the post. Does what is says on the tin, etc. etc. What really got me curious is that you mentioned you had records of all bond and IPOs issued since Jan 1st 2007. I was wondering you also had records of the returns on all issues from that date? Those types of records would really help me with some of the questions I've had about the secondary market and have put into the thread I started here. I had assumed that the community was too disjointed to have assembled such a resource. Thanks, Kaiserf
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.05.23 07:46:00 - [22] I am not at home at the moment, so I don't have all my files here. When I get back in a couple of weeks I will send out my updated data.
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.05.23 08:56:00 - [23] Originally by: Khatrina Entara I know quite a few people who have been wanting to launch an IPO/Bond (or whatever you bigwig investors call it) but refuse to do so just because of the way new IPO's are treated. Well maybe if people had a coherent, working business plan, didn't flat out refuse to undergo an audit, and weren't hostile and uncommunicative when cross-examined by members of MD, things would be different. Additionally, many if not most of the recent offerings have been attempted scams (mostly clearly discernible as such), so the fact that they got torn to shreds isn't really remarkable.
Varo Jan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.05.23 09:12:00 - [24] Originally by: Ricdics Something just as important a statistic. Of all the audits performed in the history of the MD forums, none have stolen any personal data or used them for their own benefit. So for all those people using the excuse "they might steal my trade routes", this is a non issue when using this statistic combined with the one at the top with Cosmoray. How did you verify that claim categorically for every single auditor and his alts? Did Xabier (sp?) use info from audits for his own benefit? On another matter, how many audited IPOs (a) turned out to be scams or (b) did not meet IPO targets in one form or another, such as sub-par returns or late dividend payments to name a couple.
azalea anastasia	Posted - 2009.05.23 09:14:00 - [25] Interested in seeing statistics on scams with and without audit. So say X amount of scams with no audit for X amount of isk , y amount of scams with audit for y amount of isk.I think it'll give a whole different look on this.
Draylan Poltrin	Posted - 2009.05.23 11:37:00 - [26] While it is all very well having all these checks/audits for new IPOs, where are the checks and audits on existing investments? Also, what about the others that were grilled/trolled/called scam that turned out more than okay (From EGSE data; -R.E- ; 1248 ISK per share returning 80957.14 per share - 6486.95% ROI - must be the best performer ever). The following are not being targeted specifically, just used as examples from the info available. From RESX data; AATP (last dividend 2009.03.17), EMFI (last dividend 2009.03.25), DATAC (last dividend 2008.09.05), FIMD (last dividend 2009.04.14), ZERO. (last dividend 2008.02.03). Ray's bond changed from in-game dividend payments to manual and no more was heard of it, and now Kwint is changing his terms (I would have thought changing the return on an existing fixed return bond should not be up to the bond issuer). So, what do you call a investment that does not meet up to its promises/dividends/buybacks? Waiting for cosmoray's info to see how the non-scammers have performed/are performing.
Draylan Poltrin	Posted - 2009.05.23 11:47:00 - [27] Originally by: RJ Nobel Seconded. I've been collecting similar data, but not for that long. Evemail me if you'd prefer to not publish the data. Cosmoray has said he will be posting his info, and I think that anyone who has something similar should do the same. Afterall, it will not hurt anyone but the "bad guys", and will be beneficial to the Eve community.
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2009.05.23 12:45:00 - [28] Originally by: Draylan Poltrin AATP (last dividend 2009.03.17) AATP purchased another BPO and is repaying loans, no dividends or management fees will be issued until that is done. Currently we still owe about nine billion. Originally by: Draylan Poltrin Ray's bond changed from in-game dividend payments to manual and no more was heard of it My bond was always meant to be a manual payment. It is also closing in two days, a fact that has been advertised for six months. What more would you like to hear? WTS Tech II Component BPO Sets \| Auction Prowler
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries	Posted - 2009.05.23 12:55:00 - [29] i would like to hear.... everybody was kungfu fighting.. dadadadadadadaaaaaa. Quote: "Lecherito on Market Discussion: Though I have to go down on the record as saying that I'm convinced the majority of the MD community is ******ed"
Dzil Caldari Second Quadrant Ice Division	Posted - 2009.05.23 13:55:00 - [30] Originally by: Ricdics Something just as important a statistic. Of all the audits performed in the history of the MD forums, none have stolen any personal data or used them for their own benefit. So for all those people using the excuse "they might steal my trade routes", this is a non issue when using this statistic combined with the one at the top with Cosmoray. I have a difficult time understanding how you could prove that. ------------------------------ In EVE, when someone undercuts you, they're a lemming. When you undercut someone else, it's skill/effort/manipulation.

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