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Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2009.05.23 14:08:00 - [31] Originally by: Dzil I have a difficult time understanding how you could prove that. It's an assumed truth, call it intuition. Innocent until proven guilty, eh? WTS Tech II Component BPO Sets \| Auction Prowler
Esharan Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.23 14:14:00 - [32] Originally by: cosmoray I have data from all the IPO/bond launches since Jan 1st 2007. In that time EVERY unknown (new player to MD with no recognised reputation) who has refused an audit has SCAMMED, wait for it.... 100% of the time. When are investors going to learn that throwing money at new businesses without thorough checking is as good as the Jita "send me ISK and I return 2:1". Any new business that launches who: 1. Refuses audit 2. Has audit done by unknown or friend 3. Gets surly to your legit questions 4. Asks you to leave thread ("nothing constructive to say please leave, etc") 5. Locks thread Don't invest. I can't say that, but if you do invest at least be careful what you invest in. Over 500B has been scammed in the last 30 months in this forum. Please notice that most of the old timers on the MD forum have learnt the hard way from poor investments and have stayed well clear of the obvious scams. Most checks performed on new IPO's aren't done to cause trouble but to reduce our risk of being scammed. All new IPO's/bonds HAVE to be treated as SCAM until proven otherwise. The questioning and abuse might seem harsh but it sorts the true CEO's from the scammers. What do I know, invest away and lose your cash!!! Yea I don't believe for a second you have all the statistics on this. I highly doubt that in the last 2 years not a single IPO launch who has refused those has been legit. Statistically that would be nearly impossible with the amount of IPO launches. BTW: Wouldn't be hard for you to fabricate some bogus statistics in the next few weeks to make it seem like you actually did this. /scam thread ftw.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company	Posted - 2009.05.23 14:16:00 - [33] Originally by: Esharan /scam thread ftw. I remember why I stopped reading MD.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries	Posted - 2009.05.23 14:20:00 - [34] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Dzil I have a difficult time understanding how you could prove that. It's an assumed truth, call it intuition. Innocent until proven guilty, eh? hahahaha..... innocent untill.... hahhahahhaha.. proven guilty? why should that courtesy be extended to auditors. im all for auditors, but saying that they have NEVER misused the info is just a blatant lie. you cant help but get inspired etc. or get a few tips and pointers when you audit others. Quote: "Lecherito on Market Discussion: Though I have to go down on the record as saying that I'm convinced the majority of the MD community is ******ed"
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.05.23 14:26:00 - [35] For those interested here was my report on 2008, when I analyzed all IPO's and bond launches during the year. I completed a full write up, and down the posts I posted links to google docs with some raw data. The links should still work. 2008 data original thread raw data
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.05.23 14:32:00 - [36] RE: Auditors I can say to a fair degree of certainty that Kazuo, Kazzac, Shar, Bad Bobby, Brock Nelson have never abused any information divulged to them for purposes of an audit. There are several other auditors out there also but I do not have as much working knowledge about them.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries	Posted - 2009.05.23 14:37:00 - [37] cosmo it wasnt an attack against the auditors as such, but saying that you dont get inspired by a good business plan, og some nice statistic would imo be a lie. you cant control your creative thoughts that way. im not saying that its infact a misuse as such, but they have used, some of the data they have collected over the years.. and thats imo ok... Quote: "Lecherito on Market Discussion: Though I have to go down on the record as saying that I'm convinced the majority of the MD community is ******ed"
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2009.05.23 14:39:00 - [38] Your faith in humanity is appallingly low. Also, courtesy? Basic human right I say. WTS Tech II Component BPO Sets \| Auction Prowler
Doctor Whiteface Snow Blind Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.23 14:44:00 - [39] Originally by: cosmoray RE: Auditors I can say to a fair degree of certainty that Kazuo, Kazzac, Shar, Bad Bobby, Brock Nelson have never abused any information divulged to them for purposes of an audit. There are several other auditors out there also but I do not have as much working knowledge about them. I would say that basic logic says you cannot canonically prove a negative, and that in many ways that's why MD seems to run on "+/- rep" as it's a way to bolster logic failure on negative proofing. That said, I am inclined to believe that, while some IPOs/bonds/secondary investments with audits are ultimately scams, the benefit of audit is that it makes collusion required for the scam to work, which in a risk management sense vastly decreases the likelihood of risk.
NupetietVer Arkons of Myth	Posted - 2009.05.23 15:26:00 - [40] Look up my Rat Project. Only invest when you can afford to lose it, and maybe someone will actually not be a scammer. Rat Project
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.05.23 16:29:00 - [41] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: corestwo Edited by: corestwo on 23/05/2009 04:16:13 Originally by: Caleb Ayrania You could have said that way shorter. "I must be cruel only to be kind, thus bad begins and worse remains behind" Still claiming that bullying and bad tude is good for business is not just a wrong assumption, its a barrier for game experiences. We want the entry to be full of trials and a good gauntlet running, not a berlin wall (to the younger crowd) Not to derail but is this really such "ancient" history that the link would be necessary? I'm afraid so. As a teacher I can tell you that most of my students MIGHT have heard about the Berlin wall but would have no idea wtf the deal was with it. One of my students had to complete EOI testing (end of instruction) and he asked me what the "New Deal" was and why it was a big deal. I was amazed to learn that his history class didn't get past WW1 because they ran out of time in the school year (they always had time for movies though). He had heard of Vietnam simply because of the jokes made on shows like Southpark or other such TV shows. In short, don't overestimate the intelligence and knowledge of youth. Oh and BTW, most of my students range in age from 16-22. They'll make good soldiers for the Army that obey all the orders and think the ideea of a prisoner of war convention signed by many countries is pure sci-fi ... what's the problem, best way to dumb down the ppl. --- I smack just for myself. * Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.05.23 16:44:00 - [42] Investing in EVE means trusting someone you met in a video game with the results of your previous efforts. Wherever you went - Here you are.
flakeys Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name	Posted - 2009.05.23 18:06:00 - [43] Originally by: cosmoray RE: Auditors I can say to a fair degree of certainty that Kazuo, Kazzac, Shar, Bad Bobby, Brock Nelson have never abused any information divulged to them for purposes of an audit. There are several other auditors out there also but I do not have as much working knowledge about them. You can not say that with any degree of certainty.I trust the names you mention as much as you but there is NO WAY to verify if any info they have gotten from doing an audit is misused in any way.The only one who can know is the auditors themselves. So saying in here the auditors will never abuse or have never abused any info they have gotten through doing audits is just a wild assumption.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.05.23 18:25:00 - [44] Its entirely possible that some of us have abused any information we've gleamed. Its something that cannot be totally written off honestly, since the chance even if small is there. But I can speak for myself when saying that any information I have at my hand when I have an audit is more or less useless to me.... even if you do happen to be building capitals.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company	Posted - 2009.05.23 19:21:00 - [45] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria But I can speak for myself when saying that any information I have at my hand when I have an audit is more or less useless to me.... even if you do happen to be building capitals. There are very few scenarios where the information available via an audit would result in any kind of substantial risk to a well-run business. Any kind of danger would require too little reward, too much work, and too much carelessness on the IPO manager's part to be any threat, unless the business plan isn't very good to start with. Really the only thing I can think of that's remotely risky is the locations of low-sec or 0.0 POS to be blown up, and as MD has already established ventures relying on such things are terrible ventures and shouldn't be run in the first place. If there's some kind of risk beyond that, you're probably doing it wrong.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.05.23 19:47:00 - [46] Quote: Well maybe if people had a coherent, working business plan, didn't flat out refuse to undergo an audit, and weren't hostile and uncommunicative when cross-examined by members of MD, things would be different. Additionally, many if not most of the recent offerings have been attempted scams (mostly clearly discernible as such), so the fact that they got torn to shreds isn't really remarkable. TBH in RL transactions and financial operations, you don't face a committee that looks more like Spanish Inquisition than possible financial partners. There's beyond "detached professionalism" here, there's almost palpable and spasmodic hostility. In fact, and playing several PvP MMOs teached me the instinct, I smell fear. Lot's of it. Beyond healty diffidence.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries	Posted - 2009.05.23 19:57:00 - [47] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Well maybe if people had a coherent, working business plan, didn't flat out refuse to undergo an audit, and weren't hostile and uncommunicative when cross-examined by members of MD, things would be different. Additionally, many if not most of the recent offerings have been attempted scams (mostly clearly discernible as such), so the fact that they got torn to shreds isn't really remarkable. TBH in RL transactions and financial operations, you don't face a committee that looks more like Spanish Inquisition than possible financial partners. There's beyond "detached professionalism" here, there's almost palpable and spasmodic hostility. In fact, and playing several PvP MMOs teached me the instinct, I smell fear. Lot's of it. Beyond healty diffidence. QFT Quote: "Lecherito on Market Discussion: Though I have to go down on the record as saying that I'm convinced the majority of the MD community is ******ed"
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2009.05.23 19:59:00 - [48] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha TBH in RL transactions and financial operations, you don't face a committee that looks more like Spanish Inquisition than possible financial partners. Absolute *******s. You've obviously never done business in real life. Ever heard of the Dragons' Den? Real negotiations are often way more cut-throat than that. MD is not a bank, go there if you want fair, polite treatment. Come to the public with a half-arsed proposal and expect to be called out rather harshly. Kitchen, heat, GTFO. WTS Tech II Component BPO Sets \| Auction Prowler
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries	Posted - 2009.05.23 20:11:00 - [49] oki ill gtfo then and gbtw because im a noob and i need to l2p, kek.... Quote: "Lecherito on Market Discussion: Though I have to go down on the record as saying that I'm convinced the majority of the MD community is ******ed"
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2009.05.23 20:13:00 - [50] Originally by: Ji Sama oki ill gtfo then and gbtw because im a noob and i need to l2p, kek.... Good argument. WTS Tech II Component BPO Sets \| Auction Prowler
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.05.23 20:14:00 - [51] I have run 2 companies IRL, I never felt treated like that even when asking for delaying reimbursment to the 2 banks I used. Do you live in some tribal country that they cutt your throat like that?
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2009.05.23 20:18:00 - [52] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I have run 2 companies IRL, I never felt treated like that even when asking for delaying reimbursment to the 2 banks I used. Well, as I said, banks aren't exactly private investment, which is what MD is. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Do you live in some tribal country that they cutt your throat like that? Actually, yes. It's slightly better than some pseudo-capitalist first world country. WTS Tech II Component BPO Sets \| Auction Prowler
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.05.23 20:22:00 - [53] Quote: Well, as I said, banks aren't exactly private investment, which is what MD is Well, here the banks are quite extensive in the checks they do. They just treat you with formality and detachment, something I can understand. The active hostility, instead, that is not off a serious institution.
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2009.05.23 20:24:00 - [54] The difference is the banks want, need, your business. The role is reversed here. WTS Tech II Component BPO Sets \| Auction Prowler
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.05.23 20:27:00 - [55] Quote: The difference is the banks want, need, your business. The role is reversed here. Then this is not MD, this is a charity, where beggars use clever arguments and auditing to cry some money out off you.
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2009.05.23 20:30:00 - [56] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: The difference is the banks want, need, your business. The role is reversed here. Then this is not MD, this is a charity, where beggars use clever arguments and auditing to cry some money out off you. That makes no sense at all. WTS Tech II Component BPO Sets \| Auction Prowler
Clara Mismer Minmatar Gulfonodi Industries	Posted - 2009.05.23 20:34:00 - [57] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I have run 2 companies IRL, I never felt treated like that even when asking for delaying reimbursment to the 2 banks I used. Do you live in some tribal country that they cutt your throat like that? in real life you probably had to give away tangible,physical assets, or seizeable assets for collateral - in eve that isnt really possible.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.05.23 20:37:00 - [58] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 23/05/2009 20:44:55 Originally by: Clara Mismer Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I have run 2 companies IRL, I never felt treated like that even when asking for delaying reimbursment to the 2 banks I used. Do you live in some tribal country that they cutt your throat like that? in real life you probably had to give away tangible,physical assets, or seizeable assets for collateral - in eve that isnt really possible. And being rude and spiteful on new enterpreneurs by default, is a valid surrogate for giving away tangible assets / collateral? If not, it's gratuitous bossing around. You are not in the "pro 2004 vets circle"? You are crap unless proved otherwise. Edit: I mean by example Thread "XXXX industries issues 4B IPO".... Reaction that I'd expect: "I noticed you don't mention about an audit. You know, this is a quite harsh and unregulated game, so before I commit to an investment I'd require for an audit to be performed by a 3rd party and the results reported here". What I see: "WHAAARGH YOU NOOB you are a scammer, you did not call for an audit (of course only made by the "right" people), you are gonna rob us, don't you recall in 2007 guy XXXX scammed 600B blah blah blah. Followed by 5-6 similar answers.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company	Posted - 2009.05.23 20:43:00 - [59] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha And being rude and spiteful on new enterpreneurs by default, is a valid surrogate for giving away tangible assets / collateral? If not, it's gratuitous bossing around. You are not in the "pro 2004 vets circle"? You are crap unless proved otherwise. All that any of this comes down to is that you are of the class of EVE players who take real world sensibilities into an online game and can be "offended" by what people say to them. While I'm all for not being a jackass to random people for lols, welcome to the internet. The way I see it you have two choices: be offended and pout, changing nothing except for feeling grief yourself and maybe amusing others, or learn to brush past and continue acting with reason, making the best of a situation and improving it despite others, not in order to change them.
RJ Nobel	Posted - 2009.05.23 20:43:00 - [60] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I have run 2 companies IRL, I never felt treated like that even when asking for delaying reimbursment to the 2 banks I used. Do you live in some tribal country that they cutt your throat like that? I've started and operated privately and publically funded companies in the United States, and I'd say that the "reviews" that occur on MD are miniscule compared to the level of review in the real world. Ever had an FBI Special Agent interview your neighbors from eight years ago, or ask your high school teachers about your personality? Ever had to sit through a panel polygraph session? Ever had to provide comprehensive (as in 100-200 page) business plans for review by industry-specific analysts? How about qualifying for and maintaining a personal errors-and-ommissions insurance policy for $9m? I've had to go through all of that, along with the rejections, sometimes polite and sometimes not, that go with soliciting funding for a new enterprise. If you're asking for a large sum of money, you better be prepared to properly explain how you'll use that money. And here's the rub: in my opinion, drawing a parallel between real world investments and MD investments is, well, absurd. Eve is a video game that offers a player-driven economy and a player-developed set of rules for the secondary market. The rules are quite clear to anyone who does the research: offer a good plan, get an audit, and respond to concerns in a mature, responsible manner. Anyone who can't meet those three points is either not trying, or a scammer. In my opinion, MD is chock full of investors, most of whom lurk without contributing to the regular discussion, that are desparate for quality investments. Anyone who wants to start an honest investment project just needs to do the research and present a reasonable plan. That's not asking too much, is it?

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