| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Claire Voyant
   |
Posted - 2009.05.23 16:29:00 -
[1]
So you take a large stack of you newly manufactured goods to your local hub and put them on the market at a fair price, a nice round number, then some jerk comes along and undercuts you by 0.01 isk. Now I don't mind the competition, but this violates a basic principle of any market system which is that any matching order that is submitted first should be filled first. If someone comes along after me and puts in an order that is not significantly better than mine, they should wait their turn in line.
All real world exchange markets have minimum pricing increments. It's been often pointed out in these forums that there is a minimum increment of $0.01 for stocks on the NY Stock Exchange and for Crude Oil on the futures markets, but those markets have minimum lot sizes of 100 shares of stock or contract sizes of 1000 barrels for oil. So the effective minimum increment is $1 on the NYSE and $10 in the oil futures market.
Also, the average stock share price is around $10, with most shares in the $1 to $100 range, so the minimum price increment averages 0.1% and varies from 0.01% to 1%. Crude Oil is about $50 per barrel, and has historically traded in the $15 to $130 range, for a minimum price increment of 0.02% currently and 0.008% to 0.07% historically.
Because the items that trade on the Eve market are so varied, ranging from low end minerals at 4 isk to freighters, other cap ships, and other items at almost a billion isk or more, a different system needs to be implemented to establish a minimum price increment. Some proposals have suggested that it be based on a percentage of the average price for an item, which seems unnecessarily complicated to me.
My proposal is simple. The price on all market orders should be limited to 4 significant digits. For example, valid prices would be 99.98 million, 99.99 million, 100 million, 100.1 million, 100.2 million etc. Prices below 100 isk would not be effected. The developers could implement this in whatever way they choose, i.e. truncation, rounding, or rejection, of invalid prices.
This issue has been raised on the forums in the past but it has never gone anywhere. This is something that could have been fixed years ago, but developers have never been motivated to correct it. What I am suggesting now is that we raise the issue with the CSM to see if we can get some traction there.
What I've done is contact a number of the independent industrialist candidates for the CSM to see if any of them were open to this idea. The best response I've been able to get is found here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1060464
Not exactly overwhelming, but I suggest that if any of you are in agreement with me you should contact Garthran and tell him you are supporting him and why. Also you should remember that voting closes on May 26th. I don't know when on the 26th, so I would be sure to vote by the 25th.
Also respond to this thread if you support this issue, because we will need to make a formal proposal to the CSM and we will need to voice our opinions there at the appropriate time.
|
Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 17:20:00 -
[2]
Its a free market. Learn to live with it.
There is nothing whatsoever in the real world to prevent any one independent business from engaging in price competition with the business across the street.
Gas stations engage in 1-cent wars all the time.
The only problem with Eve's market is that price is the ONLY point of competition. Since you can't choose which sell order you buy from you can't choose to buy from alliance members, from people you like to talk to in chat, or from people who can always be relied on to have what you want as people do in the real world.
If you don't like to compete on price you aren't going to like doing business in Eve.
Sep'Shoni
Mining ore and making stuff. Its not just a job, its an obsession. |
Suboran
Gallente
Victory Not Vengeance
Intrepid Crossing
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 17:35:00 -
[3]
when you put stuff on the market you engage in pvp with other traders. Be glad there doing it or you would only get crap prices.
|
Keigari
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 19:35:00 -
[4]
hey, look at his way, i put up my items freshly manufactured at high margins, then some jerk comes along and undercuts me by his supid roundfair price and i loose a lot of pofit. Its only natural to undercut that idiot by 0.01 isk every time.
|
Kat Bandeis
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 19:38:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Claire Voyant
So you take a large stack of you newly manufactured goods to your local hub and put them on the market at a fair price, a nice round number, then some jerk comes along and undercuts you by 0.01 isk. Now I don't mind the competition, but this violates a basic principle of any market system which is that any matching order that is submitted first should be filled first. If someone comes along after me and puts in an order that is not significantly better than mine, they should wait their turn in line.
So, basically you want the market to open on a first-come, first-served principle, regardless of competition, cost, etc? You put a widget on the market for -x-, and I put one on the market for -x- minus 100 isk, buyers MUST buy your more expensive widget FIRST? Are you seriously saying that?
If someone undercuts you by .01 isk, I think two things are happening here:
1) Your price is too high, or
2) You're selling in the wrong market. Get out of Jita/Amarr
|
Kat Bandeis
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 19:39:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Its a free market. Learn to live with it.
There is nothing whatsoever in the real world to prevent any one independent business from engaging in price competition with the business across the street.
Gas stations engage in 1-cent wars all the time.
The only problem with Eve's market is that price is the ONLY point of competition. Since you can't choose which sell order you buy from you can't choose to buy from alliance members, from people you like to talk to in chat, or from people who can always be relied on to have what you want as people do in the real world.
If you don't like to compete on price you aren't going to like doing business in Eve.
+1 and good post.
|
Karentaki
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 19:42:00 -
[7]
This is actually one of the best ideas I've seen to solve this problem. CCP, hire this man (or woman)!
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
|
leboe
Dark Star Cartel
Molotov Coalition
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 20:04:00 -
[8]
If more traders used mains, I'd wardec you instead of undercutting you by .01 isk
|
Braaage
Ministry of Craft
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 20:47:00 -
[9]
Meh just change the 100 ISK modification fee to 20% of the item price, the .01 wars would soon stop.
--
POSs, Outposts, Exploration, Mining, Invention, Boosters, EA EVE Database, T2/T3 production & more |
Daphne Eveningstar
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 01:14:00 -
[10]
No way no how.
|
|
CCP Applebabe
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 05:45:00 -
[11]
Moved to " Market Discussion".
Applebabe
Community Representative
CCP Hf, EVE Online
Contact us |
|
Tomahawk 122
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 08:15:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Claire Voyant
So you take a large stack of you newly manufactured goods to your local hub and put them on the market at a fair price, a nice round number, then some jerk comes along and undercuts you by 0.01 isk. Now I don't mind the competition, but this violates a basic principle of any market system which is that any matching order that is submitted first should be filled first. If someone comes along after me and puts in an order that is not significantly better than mine, they should wait their turn in line.
All real world exchange markets have minimum pricing increments. It's been often pointed out in these forums that there is a minimum increment of $0.01 for stocks on the NY Stock Exchange and for Crude Oil on the futures markets, but those markets have minimum lot sizes of 100 shares of stock or contract sizes of 1000 barrels for oil. So the effective minimum increment is $1 on the NYSE and $10 in the oil futures market.
Also, the average stock share price is around $10, with most shares in the $1 to $100 range, so the minimum price increment averages 0.1% and varies from 0.01% to 1%. Crude Oil is about $50 per barrel, and has historically traded in the $15 to $130 range, for a minimum price increment of 0.02% currently and 0.008% to 0.07% historically.
Because the items that trade on the Eve market are so varied, ranging from low end minerals at 4 isk to freighters, other cap ships, and other items at almost a billion isk or more, a different system needs to be implemented to establish a minimum price increment. Some proposals have suggested that it be based on a percentage of the average price for an item, which seems unnecessarily complicated to me.
My proposal is simple. The price on all market orders should be limited to 4 significant digits. For example, valid prices would be 99.98 million, 99.99 million, 100 million, 100.1 million, 100.2 million etc. Prices below 100 isk would not be effected. The developers could implement this in whatever way they choose, i.e. truncation, rounding, or rejection, of invalid prices.
This issue has been raised on the forums in the past but it has never gone anywhere. This is something that could have been fixed years ago, but developers have never been motivated to correct it. What I am suggesting now is that we raise the issue with the CSM to see if we can get some traction there.
What I've done is contact a number of the independent industrialist candidates for the CSM to see if any of them were open to this idea. The best response I've been able to get is found here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1060464
Not exactly overwhelming, but I suggest that if any of you are in agreement with me you should contact Garthran and tell him you are supporting him and why. Also you should remember that voting closes on May 26th. I don't know when on the 26th, so I would be sure to vote by the 25th.
Also respond to this thread if you support this issue, because we will need to make a formal proposal to the CSM and we will need to voice our opinions there at the appropriate time.
I always update my order by 1.00 at a time, does that help?
|
AmyLeigh
Amarr
Viziam
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 09:11:00 -
[13]
I update by 1.00 at a time too, and what else im seeing is the 0.08 isk games, where people who have small fonts may not even notice the changes.
They say we should love who we trust, but what is love without lust? |
Jotobar
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 12:20:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Jotobar on 24/05/2009 12:22:23
Hi Claire and thanks for the great suggestion. I've read this thread and some of your post in the csm threads.
Some things strike me:
-Your idea is: simple to implement, would make trading about brains not time, would get rid of every single market bot, would be less restricting than the current system because the 5min update rule would become less important, would reduce overall lag, wouldn't affect non-traders negatively, already IS implemented for some markets where you should be able to deduce Great examples of why this is a good system or scrap the idea (trit or other heavily traded items which cost Less than 10.00 (3) or 100.00 (4)).
-You don't manage to get these points across very efficiently, partly because it seems not a single csm grasp the basic concept of significant digits.
Please champion this great idea better and faster. The way you present the idea and concept makes you look like you just don't like competition which is the oposite of the consequences of your idea.
|
Jotobar
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 12:48:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Jotobar on 24/05/2009 12:51:02
Edited by: Jotobar on 24/05/2009 12:48:39
I'll answer these common arguments for you then to start of with:
Originally by: Suboran
when you put stuff on the market you engage in pvp with other traders. Be glad there doing it or you would only get crap prices.
False, when you put stuff on the market you play against a mix of macro's and players, his change would make it almost exclusively against players, as intended. With the current system it takes longer for prices to stabilize after it's been disrupted by manipulation or other factors so prices would actually fall.
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Its a free market. Learn to live with it.
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
If you don't like to compete on price you aren't going to like doing business in Eve.
It's still a free market after the proposed change, the first few lines of his text just made you think otherwise, we would still outbid each other but with bigger increments we would have to think before doing so. this would free market from bots aswell as make the 5min update rule less important. I at least claim this is a Much more free market than the current one.
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
There is nothing whatsoever in the real world to prevent any one independent business from engaging in price competition with the business across the street.
Gas stations engage in 1-cent wars all the time.
I couldn't have made an better example myself if I tried, since gas cost less than 10$ and 1 cent is the smallest unit this is a 3 significant digits competition process. You've now either said that there's no competition in the gas market (partly true but for other reasons that don't apply to eve) or thrown in support for his idea by giving an easy to understand example of how there's still competition in an market with 3 significant digits bidding increments. So both the stock exchange and a gas station have these rules in effect in the real world regardless of which one you think Jita resembles more.
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
The only problem with Eve's market is that price is the ONLY point of competition. Since you can't choose which sell order you buy from you can't choose to buy from alliance members, from people you like to talk to in chat, or from people who can always be relied on to have what you want as people do in the real world.
This is a valid point and I wouldn't hold it against anyone trying to champion it. For the independent traders point of view the current system is a blessing though and it let's small fish play with big fish on an somewhat more leveled ground so personally I prefer the current state. Making personal deals with friends is always an alternative.
|
Daphne Eveningstar
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 13:12:00 -
[16]
0.01 is significantly better than your price. You're the one who gets to wait your turn. Manufacturers shouldn't try to compete with dedicated traders. If you want to sell your goods first you can babysit your order like everyone else.
Why would this change affect bots anyway? They're still gonna outbid you. This change would just kill profit margins faster, great idea .
Poor Garth, don't know why he'd want to affiliate himself with such a bad idea.
|
Jotobar
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 13:29:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Jotobar on 24/05/2009 13:29:29
Originally by: Daphne Eveningstar
Why would this change affect bots anyway? They're still gonna outbid you. This change would just kill profit margins faster, great idea.
You asked a question then answered it in the next sentence. Bots are good at making easy decisions every 5 minutes, bad at making tough decisions. Traders are good at making good decisions, they can have time to update often or not depending on the trader. Shrinking marginals would make the decision if it's good to be "on top" harder thus benefiting the player.
In a way you touched the issue which will be hard to convince everyone about though, that the removal of mentioned entity will make up for tighter marginals as far as profit goes. Noone could promise that, but it would help making up for it alot atleast with the added bonus of much improved gameplay.
|
Daphne Eveningstar
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 13:52:00 -
[18]
If the bots cared about profit, than maybe. But the ones we know about don't make tough decisions. They just convert LP to isk as fast as they can.
Bots and other automated pricing agents aside, I'd really rather not see prices adjust 100-1000x as fast as they do now. This would really have the opposite effect than the OP desired. You think industrials whine about margins now?
|
Dragonz Fire
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 13:55:00 -
[19]
do NOT do this. there is no ".01 isk problem." It's how it is suppose to work and it's working great.
|
Dragonz Fire
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 13:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Keigari
hey, look at his way, i put up my items freshly manufactured at high margins, then some jerk comes along and undercuts me by his supid roundfair price and i loose a lot of pofit. Its only natural to undercut that idiot by 0.01 isk every time.
He's not a jerk. He just does things better than you by providing consumers better prices than you. His costs may even be lower making him a better manufacturer.
|
Kitchie
Gallente
Vikramaditya
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 15:28:00 -
[21]
I don't like the OP's idea at all. As things are now, you can battle with other traders without wiping out your profit margin. The 0.01 ISK game allows you to keep on top, if you're willing to put in the time and effort, and basically maintain the same price.
The only change I'd like to have is for the market to show who the buyers and sellers are and to allow you to buy/sell to a specific order, not for it to automatically go to whoever is at the top of the list. Doubt it will happen and not the end of the world if it doesn't...
Dynasty Banking - DBANK |
small chimp
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 16:27:00 -
[22]
I agree. OP's idea would only benefit the customer. Also it would really quickly kill the profit magins thus making trading less profitable thus causing less competition.
Also 0.01 isk war is sometimes/usually works as a friendly market sharing when people want to share the market without affecting the price.
Also no-one forces you to trade in jita. There are many places that are much desireable and where your orders can sometimes go for hours before being undercut while margins and volumes are still good.
|
RJ Nobel
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 17:35:00 -
[23]
Rather than expound on all of the negative aspects of the OP's proposal, I think I'll quote one of the better responses to the last time this type of market change was proposed:
Originally by: Lep Erd
I can understand the attraction of a 0.01% system... or anything to undermine Penny Wars. But I think it's a flawed idea to force new sellers to undercut an existing order by a fixed amount. What this does is introduce a pricing penalty to traders/producers that are not first to market. On the one hand, the market in eve is a commodities market... but on the other hand, it's also the proxy for a conventional marketplace. And in a conventional marketplace, multiple people can offer the same product at the same price. While that's not exactly possible in Eve, with the lowest priced order always being filled... it is possible to give sellers the ability to choose their price rather than force significant iterative price decreases with every new sell order.
Penny wars suck, and does favor people that are adjusting their prices frequently or use bots. But on the other hand, you have plenty of options for responding. Leaving the market... substantially undercutting in order to discourage competition... or finding products with fewer active sellers proportionate to the volume. If an item has 20 people that updated in the last 30 minutes, but sells like hotcakes, it might not be a bad item to sell. But if it has 20 active sellers and only sells 5 units a day, chances are you won't be one of those five units.
Trade smart. That's the best solution for the market. Far better than arbitrary pricing rules.
-l
|
Treelox
Amarr
Seppuku Warriors
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 17:55:00 -
[24]
Frack NO!!
--
|
adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 18:23:00 -
[25]
nerf 1k isk/1mill isk undercutters instead...they're ruining great profit margins
0.01 isk is perfectly fine
-sig-
Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr!
Originally by: UMEE
if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail.
QFT! |
small chimp
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 18:27:00 -
[26]
yeah. I can't understand why some people have such a desire to ruin profit margins.
|
Swearingen
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 20:15:00 -
[27]
In general, I agree with the sentiments of the OP. There needs to be a change to the way the market works. One big reason why I decided to play this game was the market and that almost any object that is in the game can be bought and sold. If I knew then what I know now about the market and how people use it, the market would not have lured me to the game.
I refuse to play the .01 isk dance with my sell orders or my buy orders. It would be a better game if we weren't forced to play that way -- I detest time sinks that can easily be eliminated. I have a sneaking suspicion that those that do choose to play the game that way use macros to alleviate the drudgery of babysitting their orders.
The biggest problem I see is when I fill buy orders to sell my stuff (since I usually don't place a sell order of my own). I should be able to choose who I sell my stuff to. The price I am forced to sell for by the market is essentially the same for a 1 unit buy order as for a 100 unit buy order because of the 1 unit buyers that have increased their sell order by .01 over the bulk buy order. I should be able to price my goods differently for small purchases and for bulk purchases (without putting in a sell order of my own). In addition, selling onesies and twosies before the bulk order takes the balance of my 100 units takes forever, compared to selling to one sufficiently-priced bulk buy order. See my views about unnecessary time sinks...
|
Jarod Leercap
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 20:25:00 -
[28]
Profit margins are good...but only if you can get them. As things stand, a chimp banging on a keyboard is all it takes to prevent someone who did their research but can't be in-game all day from earning their margin.
I don't necessarily like the idea of fixed-increment pricing, but the idea of setting a number of significant digits would be the least-worst implementation.
However, far better would be to let the buyers decide what differences are meaningful. My understanding is that the lowest-sell order wins mechanic was implemented to limit market manipulation--specifically manipulation of the average price in newb systems. It'd be nice if there was a way to allow buyers to pick their order but minimize the risk of manipulation. I just don't see one, off hand.
The simple approach would be to allow buyers pick their order, but feed transaction quantity x minimum in-system price to the average selling price calculation. However, this opens up the possibility of someone (1) posting a big, over-priced order, (2) posting a stupidly low order, and (3) buying his or her over-priced order to artificially drive down the calculated average price for the region.
The ideal would be to limit the impact of a small, under-priced order to its available quantity, but that could be a tough problem, especially on slower-moving items in quieter systems. I suppose this could work if just done at the time the order was processed (so the small price could impact multiple orders, but would only have a small impact on each of those additional orders--and only until it was bought).
|
Treelox
Amarr
Seppuku Warriors
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 20:50:00 -
[29]
@ Swearingen;
Use contracts for bulk purchases.
Swearingen & Jarod Leercap;
Eve's "Market" works under a broker system, what you both hint or outright imply doing would stop it from being a best-price broker system. If you think 0.01isk wars are "griefing" wait for the total market "griefing" I could wage if it wasn't. If you fail to see how much worse it could be, your are not thinking dark and ebil enough to realize how easy it would be to mess with people, if we could select exact orders that we sold and bought from.
--
|
Vested Interest
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 21:15:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jarod Leercap
..someone who did their research but can't be in-game all day from earning their margin.
I've identified your error. If your research doesn't take into account what happens with the price after you log off, than it's a poor effort. I am in-game all day and you have to compete with me.
It isn't your margin if you aren't in-market to claim it. It's my margin. You didn't earn anything by identifying a markup and placing an order. The price doesn't stand still or wait for you to get a turn. Fairness simply doesn't come into the equation.
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |