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CCP releasing the EVE client for player modification

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mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.05.27 12:23:00 - [1] First of all this thread is sort of a spinoff of the ideas posted in this other thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1078379 the following threads are issues that are likely to be solved by this proposal, and i only searched the first four pages of assembly hall: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1019753 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1081108 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1037619 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1067300 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1080625 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1058152 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1080393 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1075507 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1076814 A CCP dev said a while ago that the EVE client does not handle any calculations, it is simply a dumb terminal. This explains why the eve "hackers" cant do much more then macro and take advantage of exploits. so CCP has no serious protections in place to prevent modification of the client, since the damage one can do is limited. That said, I think we should ask CCP to release some tools for players to make legal client modifications. certain other popular MMOs already allow this and it's an extremely popular feature and seen by players generally as positive. EVE is infamous for its horrible client interface and a lot of specific UI complaints can be solved in one fell swoop if people could write their own game addons. There are already some addons created by players and exist in a gray area as far as the EULA is concerned- this separates the players who want to be on the safe side and the players who just want an advantage. these addons include macros, local chat warnings for ratters, portrait alterations, scanner circles, et-cetera. how far CCP wants to go as far as allowing these things is up to them, but I think the general idea is something i'd like to see if they can do. personally, i think there are some balance issues caused by this, but CCP should not rely on a bad interface to create balance anyways. Issues such as a local watch client addon should be addressed directly, rather then simply disallowing addons entirely. programs like "bacon" will always exist for as long as the client's memory can be read by other programs running on the computer. (what was "bacon"? it was a local watch warning system that took the alert data from the EVE logserver. CCP's solution was to stop sending that event to the logserver) VOTE FOR MAZZILLIU FOR '09. VOTE CHANGE. VOTE GIRRRL
mazzilliu Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.05.27 12:29:00 - [2] hmmmmmmmmmmm i think i will support myself VOTE FOR MAZZILLIU FOR '09. VOTE CHANGE. VOTE GIRRRL
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.05.27 12:32:00 - [3] Common request. It's also a stupid question. Christ no if I want to play client-modification online.
Alt Troll SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.05.27 12:37:00 - [4] Originally by: LaVista Vista Common request. It's also a stupid question. Christ no if I want to play client-modification online. OK you can stick with the CCP default, i hope you like it ____________ FEED me! You know you want to -all posts made on this character represent the views of my main's corp, alliance, as well as the views of everyone else in EVE and in the universe.-
Soldis Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.27 12:45:00 - [5] I support this only if mazzilliu will allow me to use his mod.
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.05.27 13:06:00 - [6] Originally by: Soldis I support this only if mazzilliu will allow me to use his mod. my current modification to the EVE interface is a bright pink backgrounds and hot pink buttons and pastel pink text background. soooo there you go VOTE FOR MAZZILLIU FOR '09. VOTE CHANGE. VOTE GIRRRL
Teilchen	Posted - 2009.05.27 13:08:00 - [7] Edited by: Teilchen on 27/05/2009 13:09:10 Will ill be to lazy to learn how to do this, but I think its a great idea. Usually the people share their work,so everbody could use that alteration he likes the most, or none at all. Supported.
Lady Antoinette	Posted - 2009.05.27 13:46:00 - [8] The problem with mods/addons is that since they do make things easier, they by default create either unbalance or an arms race of who has the most effective tools. While I agree that creating balance by bad UI is not the right way to design things, fixing the UI with mods for "elite" players, is an even worse issue, especially in a PVP oriented game. Myself, I love the fact that EVE is free of the mod/addon update hell after each patch, even knowing there are number of things I'd like to get access to. Please keep EVE clean, but also please, develop the UI on the official client. Besides, EVE has enough bugs to not need mods to bring more grin.
Shinnen Caldari Northern Intelligence	Posted - 2009.05.27 13:51:00 - [9] Originally by: mazzilliu There are already some addons created by players and exist in a gray area as far as the EULA is concerned- Cliet modifications, are and should remain against the EULA and a bannable offence. I won't mention any names, but I recall someone being able to fit more low-slot modules than the ship allowed by alteration of the python code. The client obviously has out-going data streams, if you allow modification of the client that control these streams then reprecussions are unforseen. I really think controlling any drawback of this idea is more hassle than it's worth for CCP programmers. Sorry Plus, if there are things that you don't like about Eve, click HERE because it will help.
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.05.27 14:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Shinnen Originally by: mazzilliu There are already some addons created by players and exist in a gray area as far as the EULA is concerned- Cliet modifications, are and should remain against the EULA and a bannable offence. I won't mention any names, but I recall someone being able to fit more low-slot modules than the ship allowed by alteration of the python code. The client obviously has out-going data streams, if you allow modification of the client that control these streams then reprecussions are unforseen. I really think controlling any drawback of this idea is more hassle than it's worth for CCP programmers. Sorry thats something that means you need to move that calculation to the server, and any other vital calculations like that. even despite those minor exploits(there was/is? a coming-out-of-warp at max speed hack too), and no punkbuster or gameguard or whatever running, the (memory editing type of)hacking problem in eve doesnt seem very widespread. so allowing legit client modification should not cause any world ending consequences. anyways, CCP can choose between allowing player run modification, or taking endless suggestion and debate about whether the zoom button should be bright pink or green and why cant you fix it you are a horrible company etc etc. as for the poster concerned itll result in an "arms race", i dont see that ever happening. in a place where players can share things openly and the same tools are available to everbody, the best ones will be the most popular, and specialized UI issues like the colorblind population and nearsighted and the deaf will get their concerns addressed as well, without requiring everyone else use the same UI. anyways the default UI will just be this one. we can only get better from here. VOTE FOR MAZZILLIU FOR '09. VOTE CHANGE. VOTE GIRRRL

Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.05.27 14:17:00 - [11] Hell No ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= Dependable, Honorable, Intelligent, No-nonsense Vote Herschel Yamamoto for CSM!
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.05.27 14:43:00 - [12] I made this a major part of my CSM campaign in the last two races, so obviously I'm for it. Assuming it's done sensibly(i.e., don't let people add low slots through client mods - seriously, you call that a counterargument?), it would be the single best change CCP could make to the game, bar none.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.05.27 15:02:00 - [13] Originally by: Lady Antoinette Please keep EVE clean, but also please, develop the UI on the official client. I agree with this sentiment. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.05.27 15:34:00 - [14] I'm with the "No" side of the argument on this issue, as much as I would love to be on the other side. Moving the exploitable items back server side instead of client side is going to add an amzing amount of calculations to the servers for the 30-50k people that are normally logged on. You think Jita or large fleet battles lag now? The fact that there are and continue to be exploitable benefits of hacking the client (the aforementioned max speed after warp thing, for instance) means that opening it up for player development only opens it up for abuse. I don't mind being beaten by a smarter player. Being beaten by a better programmer is another matter. --Vel Experience is what you get right after you need it.
Shinnen Caldari Northern Intelligence	Posted - 2009.05.27 15:45:00 - [15] Edited by: Shinnen on 27/05/2009 15:45:15 Originally by: mazzilliu thats something that means you need to move that calculation to the server, and any other vital calculations like that. even despite those minor exploits(there was/is? a coming-out-of-warp at max speed hack too), and no punkbuster or gameguard or whatever running, the (memory editing type of)hacking problem in eve doesnt seem very widespread. so allowing legit client modification should not cause any world ending consequences. I still reckon legit modification could very much result in "world-ending" consequences. In fact, something that doesn't even require a calculation sent to the server is the password that you type in. A client loaded with add-ons, of which just 1 could be hostile could result in the sensitive information getting in the wrong hands. Not only do I see potential alterations to in-game items, but also a whole new form of meta-gaming. "Hi friend in Kenzoku, would you like to download this modification to your client? It definitely WASN'T made by a Goon alt" Plus, if there are things that you don't like about Eve, click HERE because it will help.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.05.27 16:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I made this a major part of my CSM campaign in the last two races, so obviously I'm for it. Assuming it's done sensibly(i.e., don't let people add low slots through client mods - seriously, you call that a counterargument?), it would be the single best change CCP could make to the game, bar none. That's a pretty freaking huge "IF" hersch.... with a lot of baggage to go with it. It would need to be defined down to the T.... And sorry to say.... not likely to take place here considering the individuals proposing this. I don't mind a clean up.... but with how its worded... too risky. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= Dependable, Honorable, Intelligent, No-nonsense Vote Herschel Yamamoto for CSM!
Bunyip Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.05.27 17:24:00 - [17] Originally by: mazzilliu thats something that means you need to move that calculation to the server, and any other vital calculations like that. even despite those minor exploits(there was/is? a coming-out-of-warp at max speed hack too), and no punkbuster or gameguard or whatever running, the (memory editing type of)hacking problem in eve doesnt seem very widespread. so allowing legit client modification should not cause any world ending consequences. This is a game that has the potential to have well over 50k people on the same server, and you want the server to do more calculations?!? Would you like it to discern Pi to the last digit for you as well? Sorry, I am strongly against this. A modifiable UI, maybe. An open-source code, you have to be kidding me. "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.05.27 17:56:00 - [18] Edited by: Akita T on 27/05/2009 17:56:45 A customizable UI is sorely needed. But anything more than that, not really. EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.05.27 18:17:00 - [19] The idea is logical since the current UI is a nightmare and an example to student UI designers how not to design an UI. But its opening a can of worms when it comes to abuse and exploits if its not designed properly. I don't think CCP will be able to plug those holes right from the bat.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.05.27 18:45:00 - [20] Originally by: Drake Draconis That's a pretty freaking huge "IF" hersch.... with a lot of baggage to go with it. It would need to be defined down to the T.... And sorry to say.... not likely to take place here considering the individuals proposing this. I don't mind a clean up.... but with how its worded... too risky. It's easy to poke fun at CCP, and they really do deserve it sometimes, but they can do good work if they have a reason to. You're right that this could be bad - if you don't keep an eye on it, it can rapidly go from being a very good thing to a very bad thing. My understanding is that the macro/modder side of the game is something that gets tweaked frequently on games that allow it in order to keep it to utility and not necessity or absurdity. But that said, if they do it right, it would solve so many problems - probably half to 2/3 of the outstanding complaints about Eve could be solved without CCP lifting a finger if this was done. Browser sucks? Someone rams Firefox in that hole, complete with an addon that gives trusted sites all the info you could ever ask for - think of what sort of fleet coordination tools you can put into place with that amount of power at your sisposal. Mail client sucks? Not once you download a mail addon that integrates it into your computer's mail client, complete with sentbox, multiple addressing, contact list, and all the other usual and unusual feature requests. Think the corp interface is a pile of steaming dung? Rewrite it, change it all you like, and make it into whatever you think is the slickest thing imaginable. The game would be far more playable and immensely less frustrating, and CCP would never have to do a thing again in order to keep it that way, freeing them up to make a newbie-friendly default without worrying much about us vets, and put people onto the game mechanics that need changing. As far as I'm concerned, this is a no-brainer, and the only serious way to code an interface for a MMO.

mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.05.28 10:46:00 - [21] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Drake Draconis That's a pretty freaking huge "IF" hersch.... with a lot of baggage to go with it. It would need to be defined down to the T.... And sorry to say.... not likely to take place here considering the individuals proposing this. I don't mind a clean up.... but with how its worded... too risky. It's easy to poke fun at CCP, and they really do deserve it sometimes, but they can do good work if they have a reason to. You're right that this could be bad - if you don't keep an eye on it, it can rapidly go from being a very good thing to a very bad thing. My understanding is that the macro/modder side of the game is something that gets tweaked frequently on games that allow it in order to keep it to utility and not necessity or absurdity. But that said, if they do it right, it would solve so many problems - probably half to 2/3 of the outstanding complaints about Eve could be solved without CCP lifting a finger if this was done. Browser sucks? Someone rams Firefox in that hole, complete with an addon that gives trusted sites all the info you could ever ask for - think of what sort of fleet coordination tools you can put into place with that amount of power at your sisposal. Mail client sucks? Not once you download a mail addon that integrates it into your computer's mail client, complete with sentbox, multiple addressing, contact list, and all the other usual and unusual feature requests. Think the corp interface is a pile of steaming dung? Rewrite it, change it all you like, and make it into whatever you think is the slickest thing imaginable. The game would be far more playable and immensely less frustrating, and CCP would never have to do a thing again in order to keep it that way, freeing them up to make a newbie-friendly default without worrying much about us vets, and put people onto the game mechanics that need changing. As far as I'm concerned, this is a no-brainer, and the only serious way to code an interface for a MMO. yeah, pretty much. also- all those concerns about exploits can be solved or not even be an issue depending on the way CCP implements the tools. i think possible doomsday scenarios caused by implementing something horribly isnt a proper counterargument to implementing something. ccp doesnt have to release the whole client. ccp can release some UI modification tool that just lets people do limited things to the client, or release a limited programming environment so people could alter the UI within the confines of the existing game client. HOW its done isnt what this proposal is about, and we'll just have to assume it won't be done by releasing the source code. VOTE FOR MAZZILLIU FOR '09. VOTE CHANGE. VOTE GIRRRL
Shiztoe Makee	Posted - 2009.05.28 11:11:00 - [22] Only if I can write an addon so I can play the gaming using a hacked Control Pad from Steel Battlelion and put a cardboard box over my head to pretend I am in a real space ship, yes I am dungar hth.
Nuts Nougat Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.05.28 11:17:00 - [23] Supporting this, since this would be the best addition the game can currently get. Also to the naysayers, I bet most of the lag in eve is caused by database latencies, moving a couple basic math calculations to the server shouldn't make any difference at all. ---
Aethrwolf Caldari Home for Wayward Gamers	Posted - 2009.05.28 17:03:00 - [24] no.. yet another reason I left WOW was all the mods that were becoming "necessary" to play. Yes, the IGB sucks, yes mail system is annoying.. yes there are many UI things that could be better. but I dont want a mod "arms race". I have to run eve without anything else as it is or I start having problems. I can run 2 clients right now but I have to have nothing else running and turn off all effects in game . If I soo much as open firefox or any other program before eve, I need to reboot or I WILL eventually crash either the client or my whole system. There are others in the same boat playing right now, I've talked to some of them. Before you claim that an arms race wont happen REALLY think hard and honestly about it... mods happen and soon corps will be requiring mods for all members, which will lead to enemies requiring something to match or counter that mod, which will lead too.. well you get the picture... Absolutely everything is subjective.
Venomire GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.05.28 19:11:00 - [25] I'm down.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.05.28 20:30:00 - [26] Originally by: Aethrwolf no.. yet another reason I left WOW was all the mods that were becoming "necessary" to play. Yes, the IGB sucks, yes mail system is annoying.. yes there are many UI things that could be better. but I dont want a mod "arms race". I have to run eve without anything else as it is or I start having problems. I can run 2 clients right now but I have to have nothing else running and turn off all effects in game . If I soo much as open firefox or any other program before eve, I need to reboot or I WILL eventually crash either the client or my whole system. There are others in the same boat playing right now, I've talked to some of them. Before you claim that an arms race wont happen REALLY think hard and honestly about it... mods happen and soon corps will be requiring mods for all members, which will lead to enemies requiring something to match or counter that mod, which will lead too.. well you get the picture... Again, what this says to me is that CCP makes such a bad UI that it's not even close to competitive against what players can make. An arms race is just fine by me - oh no, people striving to make Eve even easier for me to play? The horror! Your point about system resource use is one that I'd be at least a little concerned about - my machine chokes on two clients too, and I'd probably refrain form using mods that required a lot out of my system. That said, again, it'd be my choice, and it's not like players can't create lightwight mods. I can choose to play with the crap CCP gives me, or I can choose to modify to my heart's content. The worst case here - mods are crap and you don't want to use them - is exactly the status quo. The best case is us actually having a game that might be worthy of an adjective better than "marginally playable".
C'ompass	Posted - 2009.05.28 23:18:00 - [27] Well I think this is not possible. The game si written in Python (or at least great part) and I quess UI is in Python as well (why not if the game is in python). So the only way to allow people to modify UI would be exposing some part of python and this is point where it ends because python is quite powerfull and it's hard to set some borders and limit set of availiable functions to 'safe' ones. With python exposed you could easily write your own tools that give you advantages over another players ( I can imagine autopilot that can even dock/undock ). I think IF they rewrite the game to c++ and use LUA (for example) as scripting language + puting all gui stuff to xml then we might have customizable GUI otherwise it's impossible. ^^ well and it's not going to happen since they already paid programmers to write it in Python
Bullageddon Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.29 00:35:00 - [28] Originally by: Alt Troll Originally by: LaVista Vista Common request. It's also a stupid question. Christ no if I want to play client-modification online. OK you can stick with the CCP default, i hope you like it mods helped kill WOW's fun factor. If you can't play with what CCP gives you, request something else or play something else. === This Space For Lease or Sale.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.05.29 04:48:00 - [29] I like how all the criticism is either: 1. Eve shouldn't do it because wow does it. 2. I don't understand the concept of a dumb terminal and think that it well let people hax hurr hurr. Suck it up and let us mod already.
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.05.29 05:56:00 - [30] Sorry, anyone who mods the game for themselves instead of putting their ideas up for public discussion is taking the game too seriously for my liking. Not supported. /Ben



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