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mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.05.27 12:23:00 -
[1]
First of all this thread is sort of a spinoff of the ideas posted in this other thread:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1078379
the following threads are issues that are likely to be solved by this proposal, and i only searched the first four pages of assembly hall:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1019753
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1081108
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1037619
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1067300
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1080625
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1058152
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1080393
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1075507
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1076814
A CCP dev said a while ago that the EVE client does not handle any calculations, it is simply a dumb terminal. This explains why the eve "hackers" cant do much more then macro and take advantage of exploits. so CCP has no serious protections in place to prevent modification of the client, since the damage one can do is limited.
That said, I think we should ask CCP to release some tools for players to make legal client modifications. certain other popular MMOs already allow this and it's an extremely popular feature and seen by players generally as positive. EVE is infamous for its horrible client interface and a lot of specific UI complaints can be solved in one fell swoop if people could write their own game addons.
There are already some addons created by players and exist in a gray area as far as the EULA is concerned- this separates the players who want to be on the safe side and the players who just want an advantage. these addons include macros, local chat warnings for ratters, portrait alterations, scanner circles, et-cetera. how far CCP wants to go as far as allowing these things is up to them, but I think the general idea is something i'd like to see if they can do.
personally, i think there are some balance issues caused by this, but CCP should not rely on a bad interface to create balance anyways. Issues such as a local watch client addon should be addressed directly, rather then simply disallowing addons entirely. programs like "bacon" will always exist for as long as the client's memory can be read by other programs running on the computer.
(what was "bacon"? it was a local watch warning system that took the alert data from the EVE logserver. CCP's solution was to stop sending that event to the logserver)
VOTE FOR MAZZILLIU FOR '09. VOTE CHANGE. VOTE GIRRRL |
mazzilliu
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.05.27 12:29:00 -
[2]
hmmmmmmmmmmm i think i will support myself
VOTE FOR MAZZILLIU FOR '09. VOTE CHANGE. VOTE GIRRRL |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.05.27 12:32:00 -
[3]
Common request.
It's also a stupid question.
Christ no if I want to play client-modification online.
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Alt Troll
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.05.27 12:37:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: LaVista Vista
Common request.
It's also a stupid question.
Christ no if I want to play client-modification online.
OK you can stick with the CCP default, i hope you like it
____________
FEED me!
You know you want to 
-all posts made on this character represent the views of my main's corp, alliance, as well as the views of everyone else in EVE and in the universe.- |
Soldis
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.27 12:45:00 -
[5]
I support this only if mazzilliu will allow me to use his mod.
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mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.05.27 13:06:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Soldis
I support this only if mazzilliu will allow me to use his mod.
my current modification to the EVE interface is a bright pink backgrounds and hot pink buttons and pastel pink text background. soooo there you go 
VOTE FOR MAZZILLIU FOR '09. VOTE CHANGE. VOTE GIRRRL |
Teilchen
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Posted - 2009.05.27 13:08:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Teilchen on 27/05/2009 13:09:10
Will ill be to lazy to learn how to do this, but I think its a great idea. Usually the people share their work,so everbody could use that alteration he likes the most, or none at all.
Supported.
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Lady Antoinette
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Posted - 2009.05.27 13:46:00 -
[8]
The problem with mods/addons is that since they do make things easier, they by default create either unbalance or an arms race of who has the most effective tools.
While I agree that creating balance by bad UI is not the right way to design things, fixing the UI with mods for "elite" players, is an even worse issue, especially in a PVP oriented game.
Myself, I love the fact that EVE is free of the mod/addon update hell after each patch, even knowing there are number of things I'd like to get access to. Please keep EVE clean, but also please, develop the UI on the official client.
Besides, EVE has enough bugs to not need mods to bring more *grin*.
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Shinnen
Caldari
Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.05.27 13:51:00 -
[9]
Originally by: mazzilliu
There are already some addons created by players and exist in a gray area as far as the EULA is concerned-
Cliet modifications, are and should remain against the EULA and a bannable offence.
I won't mention any names, but I recall someone being able to fit more low-slot modules than the ship allowed by alteration of the python code.
The client obviously has out-going data streams, if you allow modification of the client that control these streams then reprecussions are unforseen.
I really think controlling any drawback of this idea is more hassle than it's worth for CCP programmers.
Sorry
Plus, if there are things that you don't like about Eve, click HERE because it will help. |
mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.05.27 14:01:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shinnen
Originally by: mazzilliu
There are already some addons created by players and exist in a gray area as far as the EULA is concerned-
Cliet modifications, are and should remain against the EULA and a bannable offence.
I won't mention any names, but I recall someone being able to fit more low-slot modules than the ship allowed by alteration of the python code.
The client obviously has out-going data streams, if you allow modification of the client that control these streams then reprecussions are unforseen.
I really think controlling any drawback of this idea is more hassle than it's worth for CCP programmers.
Sorry
thats something that means you need to move that calculation to the server, and any other vital calculations like that. even despite those minor exploits(there was/is? a coming-out-of-warp at max speed hack too), and no punkbuster or gameguard or whatever running, the (memory editing type of)hacking problem in eve doesnt seem very widespread. so allowing legit client modification should not cause any world ending consequences.
anyways, CCP can choose between allowing player run modification, or taking endless suggestion and debate about whether the zoom button should be bright pink or green and why cant you fix it you are a horrible company etc etc.
as for the poster concerned itll result in an "arms race", i dont see that ever happening. in a place where players can share things openly and the same tools are available to everbody, the best ones will be the most popular, and specialized UI issues like the colorblind population and nearsighted and the deaf will get their concerns addressed as well, without requiring everyone else use the same UI.
anyways the default UI will just be this one. we can only get better from here.
VOTE FOR MAZZILLIU FOR '09. VOTE CHANGE. VOTE GIRRRL |
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
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Posted - 2009.05.27 14:17:00 -
[11]
Hell No
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
=========================
Dependable, Honorable, Intelligent, No-nonsense
Vote Herschel Yamamoto for CSM! |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.05.27 14:43:00 -
[12]
I made this a major part of my CSM campaign in the last two races, so obviously I'm for it. Assuming it's done sensibly(i.e., don't let people add low slots through client mods - seriously, you call that a counterargument?), it would be the single best change CCP could make to the game, bar none.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:02:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lady Antoinette
Please keep EVE clean, but also please, develop the UI on the official client.
I agree with this sentiment.
~ Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Special Projects Executive
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:34:00 -
[14]
I'm with the "No" side of the argument on this issue, as much as I would love to be on the other side.
Moving the exploitable items back server side instead of client side is going to add an amzing amount of calculations to the servers for the 30-50k people that are normally logged on. You think Jita or large fleet battles lag now?
The fact that there are and continue to be exploitable benefits of hacking the client (the aforementioned max speed after warp thing, for instance) means that opening it up for player development only opens it up for abuse. I don't mind being beaten by a smarter player. Being beaten by a better programmer is another matter.
--Vel
Experience is what you get right after you need it.
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Shinnen
Caldari
Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:45:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Shinnen on 27/05/2009 15:45:15
Originally by: mazzilliu
thats something that means you need to move that calculation to the server, and any other vital calculations like that. even despite those minor exploits(there was/is? a coming-out-of-warp at max speed hack too), and no punkbuster or gameguard or whatever running, the (memory editing type of)hacking problem in eve doesnt seem very widespread. so allowing legit client modification should not cause any world ending consequences.
I still reckon legit modification could very much result in "world-ending" consequences.
In fact, something that doesn't even require a calculation sent to the server is the password that you type in.
A client loaded with add-ons, of which just 1 could be hostile could result in the sensitive information getting in the wrong hands.
Not only do I see potential alterations to in-game items, but also a whole new form of meta-gaming.
"Hi friend in Kenzoku, would you like to download this modification to your client? It definitely WASN'T made by a Goon alt"
Plus, if there are things that you don't like about Eve, click HERE because it will help. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
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Posted - 2009.05.27 16:40:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
I made this a major part of my CSM campaign in the last two races, so obviously I'm for it. Assuming it's done sensibly(i.e., don't let people add low slots through client mods - seriously, you call that a counterargument?), it would be the single best change CCP could make to the game, bar none.
That's a pretty freaking huge "IF" hersch.... with a lot of baggage to go with it.
It would need to be defined down to the T....
And sorry to say.... not likely to take place here considering the individuals proposing this.
I don't mind a clean up.... but with how its worded... too risky.
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
=========================
Dependable, Honorable, Intelligent, No-nonsense
Vote Herschel Yamamoto for CSM! |
Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.05.27 17:24:00 -
[17]
Originally by: mazzilliu
thats something that means you need to move that calculation to the server, and any other vital calculations like that. even despite those minor exploits(there was/is? a coming-out-of-warp at max speed hack too), and no punkbuster or gameguard or whatever running, the (memory editing type of)hacking problem in eve doesnt seem very widespread. so allowing legit client modification should not cause any world ending consequences.
This is a game that has the potential to have well over 50k people on the same server, and you want the server to do more calculations?!? Would you like it to discern Pi to the last digit for you as well?
Sorry, I am strongly against this. A modifiable UI, maybe. An open-source code, you have to be kidding me.
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.27 17:56:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Akita T on 27/05/2009 17:56:45
A customizable UI is sorely needed.
But anything more than that, not really.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
fuze
Gallente
Chosen Path
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2009.05.27 18:17:00 -
[19]
The idea is logical since the current UI is a nightmare and an example to student UI designers how not to design an UI.
But its opening a can of worms when it comes to abuse and exploits if its not designed properly. I don't think CCP will be able to plug those holes right from the bat. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.05.27 18:45:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
That's a pretty freaking huge "IF" hersch.... with a lot of baggage to go with it.
It would need to be defined down to the T....
And sorry to say.... not likely to take place here considering the individuals proposing this.
I don't mind a clean up.... but with how its worded... too risky.
It's easy to poke fun at CCP, and they really do deserve it sometimes, but they can do good work if they have a reason to. You're right that this could be bad - if you don't keep an eye on it, it can rapidly go from being a very good thing to a very bad thing. My understanding is that the macro/modder side of the game is something that gets tweaked frequently on games that allow it in order to keep it to utility and not necessity or absurdity.
But that said, if they do it right, it would solve so many problems - probably half to 2/3 of the outstanding complaints about Eve could be solved without CCP lifting a finger if this was done. Browser sucks? Someone rams Firefox in that hole, complete with an addon that gives trusted sites all the info you could ever ask for - think of what sort of fleet coordination tools you can put into place with that amount of power at your sisposal. Mail client sucks? Not once you download a mail addon that integrates it into your computer's mail client, complete with sentbox, multiple addressing, contact list, and all the other usual and unusual feature requests. Think the corp interface is a pile of steaming dung? Rewrite it, change it all you like, and make it into whatever you think is the slickest thing imaginable. The game would be far more playable and immensely less frustrating, and CCP would never have to do a thing again in order to keep it that way, freeing them up to make a newbie-friendly default without worrying much about us vets, and put people onto the game mechanics that need changing.
As far as I'm concerned, this is a no-brainer, and the only serious way to code an interface for a MMO.
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mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.05.28 10:46:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Drake Draconis
That's a pretty freaking huge "IF" hersch.... with a lot of baggage to go with it.
It would need to be defined down to the T....
And sorry to say.... not likely to take place here considering the individuals proposing this.
I don't mind a clean up.... but with how its worded... too risky.
It's easy to poke fun at CCP, and they really do deserve it sometimes, but they can do good work if they have a reason to. You're right that this could be bad - if you don't keep an eye on it, it can rapidly go from being a very good thing to a very bad thing. My understanding is that the macro/modder side of the game is something that gets tweaked frequently on games that allow it in order to keep it to utility and not necessity or absurdity.
But that said, if they do it right, it would solve so many problems - probably half to 2/3 of the outstanding complaints about Eve could be solved without CCP lifting a finger if this was done. Browser sucks? Someone rams Firefox in that hole, complete with an addon that gives trusted sites all the info you could ever ask for - think of what sort of fleet coordination tools you can put into place with that amount of power at your sisposal. Mail client sucks? Not once you download a mail addon that integrates it into your computer's mail client, complete with sentbox, multiple addressing, contact list, and all the other usual and unusual feature requests. Think the corp interface is a pile of steaming dung? Rewrite it, change it all you like, and make it into whatever you think is the slickest thing imaginable. The game would be far more playable and immensely less frustrating, and CCP would never have to do a thing again in order to keep it that way, freeing them up to make a newbie-friendly default without worrying much about us vets, and put people onto the game mechanics that need changing.
As far as I'm concerned, this is a no-brainer, and the only serious way to code an interface for a MMO.
yeah, pretty much.
also- all those concerns about exploits can be solved or not even be an issue depending on the way CCP implements the tools. i think possible doomsday scenarios caused by implementing something horribly isnt a proper counterargument to implementing something. ccp doesnt have to release the whole client. ccp can release some UI modification tool that just lets people do limited things to the client, or release a limited programming environment so people could alter the UI within the confines of the existing game client. HOW its done isnt what this proposal is about, and we'll just have to assume it won't be done by releasing the source code.
VOTE FOR MAZZILLIU FOR '09. VOTE CHANGE. VOTE GIRRRL |
Shiztoe Makee
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Posted - 2009.05.28 11:11:00 -
[22]
Only if I can write an addon so I can play the gaming using a hacked Control Pad from Steel Battlelion and put a cardboard box over my head to pretend I am in a real space ship, yes I am dungar hth.
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.05.28 11:17:00 -
[23]
Supporting this, since this would be the best addition the game can currently get.
Also to the naysayers, I bet most of the lag in eve is caused by database latencies, moving a couple basic math calculations to the server shouldn't make any difference at all.
---
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Aethrwolf
Caldari
Home for Wayward Gamers
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Posted - 2009.05.28 17:03:00 -
[24]
no.. yet another reason I left WOW was all the mods that were becoming "necessary" to play. Yes, the IGB sucks, yes mail system is annoying.. yes there are many UI things that could be better. but I dont want a mod "arms race". I have to run eve without anything else as it is or I start having problems. I can run 2 clients right now but I have to have nothing else running and turn off all effects in game  . If I soo much as open firefox or any other program before eve, I need to reboot or I WILL eventually crash either the client or my whole system. There are others in the same boat playing right now, I've talked to some of them. Before you claim that an arms race wont happen REALLY think hard and honestly about it... mods happen and soon corps will be requiring mods for all members, which will lead to enemies requiring something to match or counter that mod, which will lead too.. well you get the picture...
Absolutely everything is subjective. |
Venomire
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.28 19:11:00 -
[25]
I'm down.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.05.28 20:30:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Aethrwolf
no.. yet another reason I left WOW was all the mods that were becoming "necessary" to play. Yes, the IGB sucks, yes mail system is annoying.. yes there are many UI things that could be better. but I dont want a mod "arms race". I have to run eve without anything else as it is or I start having problems. I can run 2 clients right now but I have to have nothing else running and turn off all effects in game . If I soo much as open firefox or any other program before eve, I need to reboot or I WILL eventually crash either the client or my whole system. There are others in the same boat playing right now, I've talked to some of them. Before you claim that an arms race wont happen REALLY think hard and honestly about it... mods happen and soon corps will be requiring mods for all members, which will lead to enemies requiring something to match or counter that mod, which will lead too.. well you get the picture...
Again, what this says to me is that CCP makes such a bad UI that it's not even close to competitive against what players can make. An arms race is just fine by me - oh no, people striving to make Eve even easier for me to play? The horror!
Your point about system resource use is one that I'd be at least a little concerned about - my machine chokes on two clients too, and I'd probably refrain form using mods that required a lot out of my system. That said, again, it'd be my choice, and it's not like players can't create lightwight mods. I can choose to play with the crap CCP gives me, or I can choose to modify to my heart's content. The worst case here - mods are crap and you don't want to use them - is exactly the status quo. The best case is us actually having a game that might be worthy of an adjective better than "marginally playable".
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C'ompass
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Posted - 2009.05.28 23:18:00 -
[27]
Well I think this is not possible. The game si written in Python (or at least great part) and I quess UI is in Python as well (why not if the game is in python). So the only way to allow people to modify UI would be exposing some part of python and this is point where it ends because python is quite powerfull and it's hard to set some borders and limit set of availiable functions to 'safe' ones. With python exposed you could easily write your own tools that give you advantages over another players ( I can imagine autopilot that can even dock/undock ).
I think IF they rewrite the game to c++ and use LUA (for example) as scripting language + puting all gui stuff to xml then we might have customizable GUI otherwise it's impossible.
^^ well and it's not going to happen since they already paid programmers to write it in Python
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Bullageddon
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.29 00:35:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Alt Troll
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Common request.
It's also a stupid question.
Christ no if I want to play client-modification online.
OK you can stick with the CCP default, i hope you like it
mods helped kill WOW's fun factor.
If you can't play with what CCP gives you, request something else or play something else.
===
This Space For Lease or Sale. |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.05.29 04:48:00 -
[29]
I like how all the criticism is either:
1. Eve shouldn't do it because wow does it.
2. I don't understand the concept of a dumb terminal and think that it well let people hax hurr hurr.
Suck it up and let us mod already.
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Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2009.05.29 05:56:00 -
[30]
Sorry, anyone who mods the game for themselves instead of putting their ideas up for public discussion is taking the game too seriously for my liking.
Not supported.
/Ben
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Dragon Greg
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.05.29 09:22:00 -
[31]
Hello no. The only way for that to even remotely work would be a model along the lines of Apple's iPod software market. Not touching that with a 10AU pole.
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Muad' Dib
Gallente
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.29 10:01:00 -
[32]
If i see more than just PL and Goons supporting this - and PL guys even with standardized messages, than i'll support it too, but so far it looks like PL/Goon pushing their own agenda of getting yet another advantage in a full pvp game where every advantage counts.
---
I smack just for myself.
* Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout |
mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.05.29 12:42:00 -
[33]
Edited by: mazzilliu on 29/05/2009 12:46:44
Originally by: Muad' Dib
If i see more than just PL and Goons supporting this - and PL guys even with standardized messages, than i'll support it too, but so far it looks like PL/Goon pushing their own agenda of getting yet another advantage in a full pvp game where every advantage counts.
most of the criticism on the other hand is either "no it wont work because CCP will allow us to make hacks" or "no everyone will hog all the good mods for themselves", and standard assembly hall troll posts. so do we LIKE the bad interface of eve or something now?
so someone should come up with some valid reason why CCP shouldnt allow players to modify the interface, and saying something from the above paragraph isnt a valid reason. a bad idea is a bad idea, but throwing illogical and/or unsupported criticisms around doesnt make a lot of sense.
VOTE FOR MAZZILLIU FOR '09. VOTE CHANGE. VOTE GIRRRL |
Teilchen
Caldari
Intergalactic Serenity
Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.05.29 13:04:00 -
[34]
Could we get away from this Goon/PL forum bashing. Lets bash them ingame ;)
Yeah, even they have good idea sometimes. And I think a lot of people would like this idea implemented. Not to do it themselves, but so that some goonspy could leak their newest interface xD
Kidding aside, I am sure that some great work would be done, and then shared. And a lot of people would get something they like more then the current.
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Venomire
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.29 13:12:00 -
[35]
Think of it as CCP giving us the tools and framework to add features to the UI that the player base would find useful. Some examples would be: filters for chat channels, removing portraits from channel lists (and leaving just the name), changing the ****ing font to something more readable.
Why is this a bad thing?
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.05.29 14:43:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Muad' Dib
If i see more than just PL and Goons supporting this - and PL guys even with standardized messages, than i'll support it too, but so far it looks like PL/Goon pushing their own agenda of getting yet another advantage in a full pvp game where every advantage counts.
*raises hand*
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.05.29 14:48:00 -
[37]
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep.
I am always here.
Watching.
Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
it does get progressively longer.
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Muad' Dib
Gallente
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.29 15:52:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 29/05/2009 15:53:37
Originally by: mazzilliu
Edited by: mazzilliu on 29/05/2009 12:46:44
Originally by: Muad' Dib
If i see more than just PL and Goons supporting this - and PL guys even with standardized messages, than i'll support it too, but so far it looks like PL/Goon pushing their own agenda of getting yet another advantage in a full pvp game where every advantage counts.
most of the criticism on the other hand is either "no it wont work because CCP will allow us to make hacks" or "no everyone will hog all the good mods for themselves", and standard assembly hall troll posts. so do we LIKE the bad interface of eve or something now?
so someone should come up with some valid reason why CCP shouldnt allow players to modify the interface, and saying something from the above paragraph isnt a valid reason. a bad idea is a bad idea, but throwing illogical and/or unsupported criticisms around doesnt make a lot of sense.
No, i don't like the UI interface, but if i have to choose between a group of players getting way too much advantage through 3rd party programs, released only for their own membership and the UI interface to which i adaptated over the past 3 yrs i have played this game, then yes, i will stay with the interface.
If you want me to rephrase my opinion in a negative way to this proposition how is this ... it may leave room for too much abuse.
Originally by: Teilchen
Could we get away from this Goon/PL forum bashing. Lets bash them ingame ;)
Yeah, even they have good idea sometimes. And I think a lot of people would like this idea implemented. Not to do it themselves, but so that some goonspy could leak their newest interface xD
Kidding aside, I am sure that some great work would be done, and then shared. And a lot of people would get something they like more then the current.
Wish we could but just as with politics, if the person i voted for is elected, i expect to do stuff in my own interest.
---
I smack just for myself.
* Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout |
Venomire
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.29 21:21:00 -
[39]
Counterpoint: EVEmon was a goon project. EVEmap is a goon project.
Yeah, we don't release stuff to the general public.
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Muad' Dib
Gallente
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.29 21:26:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Venomire
Counterpoint: EVEmon was a goon project. EVEmap is a goon project.
Yeah, we don't release stuff to the general public.
Standings in local also was a goon project that helped you a lot, you didn't release it, but CCP still leveled the playing field by releasing something similar.
And before you give another example in the grid-fu pdf file, that was released because your enemies knew of it, and it didn't matter at that point. :)
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I smack just for myself.
* Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout |
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mazzilliu
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Posted - 2009.05.29 21:54:00 -
[41]
Edited by: mazzilliu on 29/05/2009 21:54:06
Originally by: Muad' Dib
Originally by: Venomire
Counterpoint: EVEmon was a goon project. EVEmap is a goon project.
Yeah, we don't release stuff to the general public.
Standings in local also was a goon project that helped you a lot, you didn't release it, but CCP still leveled the playing field by releasing something similar.
And before you give another example in the grid-fu pdf file, that was released because your enemies knew of it, and it didn't matter at that point. :)
the local portraits had to be updated based on the corp membership, constantly, with some dude doing tons of work. its physically not possible for them to provide it for everybody.
grid fu was an exploit.
also i dont have any idea why you think that all the programming talent is within the ranks of big alliances and nobody outside a big alliance will do any work, and nobody is interested in making a name for themself by making the best UI ever.
also nobody shares eve API apps. the only good API apps are in the hands of pl.
MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU. |
Venomire
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.29 22:24:00 -
[42]
Originally by: mazzilliu
also nobody shares eve API apps. the only good API apps are in the hands of pl.
The logserver change that broke bacon also severely crippled the portrait pack.
Not that the pack is needed anymore, since CCP said "Hey, good idea" and implemented their (better due to lack of upkeep) version.
To build off of what mazz says (in the bit I quoted). I know we don't trust API programs built out of house, we're always concerned about spies. And the web based API using programs we develop in house are linked to our auth system. It isn't something easily exported for general use.
None of this has to do with UI scripting, though. It was merely a point to demonstrate that we do release stuff to the general public.
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Muad' Dib
Gallente
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.30 07:49:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Venomire
Originally by: mazzilliu
also nobody shares eve API apps. the only good API apps are in the hands of pl.
The logserver change that broke bacon also severely crippled the portrait pack.
Not that the pack is needed anymore, since CCP said "Hey, good idea" and implemented their (better due to lack of upkeep) version.
To build off of what mazz says (in the bit I quoted). I know we don't trust API programs built out of house, we're always concerned about spies. And the web based API using programs we develop in house are linked to our auth system. It isn't something easily exported for general use.
None of this has to do with UI scripting, though. It was merely a point to demonstrate that we do release stuff to the general public.
Let me quote about grid-fu being an exploit :
Originally by: GM Grimmi
Strategically placing items in grids around POS towers for the purpose of hiding the towers is an exploit and action will be taken against those found doing it.
GM Grimmi
It was only prohibited around POS towers, which means that in every other situation, it is still being used.
As for trust, this is exactly why it should be in the hands of regular players. You may not trust 3rd party programs built "out of house" but what is to say that we should trust 3rd party programs made by some 0.0 paranoid alliance about spies; alliances like these have time and time again proven they will stop at nothing from a metagaming pov to reach their objectives ... or must i remind you of why this forum now has a feature for disabling the viewing of pics and signatures ?
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I smack just for myself.
* Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout |
Muad' Dib
Gallente
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.30 07:58:00 -
[44]
Originally by: mazzilliu
Edited by: mazzilliu on 29/05/2009 21:54:06
Originally by: Muad' Dib
Originally by: Venomire
Counterpoint: EVEmon was a goon project. EVEmap is a goon project.
Yeah, we don't release stuff to the general public.
Standings in local also was a goon project that helped you a lot, you didn't release it, but CCP still leveled the playing field by releasing something similar.
And before you give another example in the grid-fu pdf file, that was released because your enemies knew of it, and it didn't matter at that point. :)
the local portraits had to be updated based on the corp membership, constantly, with some dude doing tons of work. its physically not possible for them to provide it for everybody.
grid fu was an exploit.
also i dont have any idea why you think that all the programming talent is within the ranks of big alliances and nobody outside a big alliance will do any work, and nobody is interested in making a name for themself by making the best UI ever.
also nobody shares eve API apps. the only good API apps are in the hands of pl.
If you have real programming tallent within your alliance, and you develop an app that really helps you, would you release it publicly so that even your enemies have access to it ?
This may be internet spaceships but you guys take it way too seriously ... :)
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I smack just for myself.
* Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout |
Totally Hopeless
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Posted - 2009.05.30 09:53:00 -
[45]
Client-side mods should be limited to the visual expression of the client to the user, with plug-ins focusing only on display data.
No data that gives information that the game does not require... such as that new face in local or automated scan modes alerting of probes within X range, ect.
So, the color blind can have a plugin that suits them, and the deaf, ect. Data-mining applets and macro behaviors would, as ever, be a EULA violation.
Likewise CCP should implement client side thread monitoring specifically to watch for macro behavior.
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Taudia
Sane Industries Inc.
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.05.30 11:14:00 -
[46]
Supported, with the reservation that it should not be a top priority. As I see it, the UI as it is currently works, but upgrades would be handy. If community made mods can be integrated without too much work on the part of CCP, then I am in favor. If a project such as this one was to push future gameplay additions, such as ambulation of planetary landing, back too much, I would not be in favor.
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Ekeim
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Posted - 2009.05.30 15:43:00 -
[47]
Source: http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=19002
Quote:
There was also the recent theft of select source code. Does it mean anything?
NR: No, not at all. This was only the client Python source code, which we are well aware can be decompiled and reverse engineered like that.
Everything we do is done with that in mind. We donÆt believe in security through obscurity. It certainly created more awareness of what the client does and in fact how ôstupidö the client is - as our game logic is server based.
The game is already set up such that the server is the ultimate 'truth' in what happens, not any given client - just as any client/server application should be.
If the conventions of other MMOs are followed in implementation, then there would not be a security risk. The mods are not separate applications, rather they are a set of instructions that call predefined and approved functionality in the client. Unless CCP specifically added functionality in the client to log keys and then send them off to some user specified address and on top of that, opened up that functionality to end users then the keylogging or corporate security paranoia can safely be dismissed as unfounded.
For me, the ability to add things like a right click option on a locked target 'order drones to attack this target' via mods would be nice. or a drone status panel that doesn't require constant expanding and contracting, and resizing, and poking/proding in the name of screen real estate. It wouldn't be giving me a tactical advantage; it would just make drone management take less screen space and fidgeting with the ui. All things you can already do anyway, just less clumsily after some cleanup.
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Deldrac
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.30 16:16:00 -
[48]
If CCP weren't so terrible at UI programming, this wouldn't be necessary. As it is...
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WheatGrass
Silent but Friendly
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Posted - 2009.05.30 17:44:00 -
[49]
I'd settle for a native linux client.
"It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." -Mark Twain |
Kazang
Wrecking Shots
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Posted - 2009.05.31 17:47:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Kazang on 31/05/2009 17:46:51
100% supported. Everyone saying that it will result in more hacks or that you would be worried you would get your account pw stolen are all paranoid idiots.
Being able to change the various aspects of the UI such as where the module bars are located, adding a percentage symbol to targeted ships hp and so on would only benefit the players. It would not require any more calculations done by the client or any additional data/commands sent to the server and thusly no more likelyhood of a "hack" being developed. Also the rules of don't download anything that you dont trust not to be a keylogger still applies.
If you download a "addon" from www.eve-hacks.rus then you deserve to have to account stolen.
Kazang
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SupaKudoRio
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Posted - 2009.06.01 06:20:00 -
[51]
-SIG-
The true meaning of CCP; Completely Crap Patches.
Truth. |
Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Ex Cruoris Libertas
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Posted - 2009.06.01 07:31:00 -
[52]
I say no because there are hundreds of things more important that should be higher on the list of priorities. eye candy is the last thing we need more of, even if it's a way for us to make our own.
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Avalon Champion
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
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Posted - 2009.06.01 07:38:00 -
[53]
while I agree that the UI needs to be brough upto date I dont support the introduction of custom add-ons, its the wrong way to go.
Originally by: Kazang
Edited by: Kazang on 31/05/2009 17:46:51Everyone saying that it will result in more hacks or that you would be worried you would get your account pw stolen are all paranoid idiots.
Being a 'paranoid idiot' has kept by computer systems and passwords safe from keyloggers and viruses for 20 years.
Quote:
If you download a "addon" from www.eve-hacks.rus then you deserve to have to account stolen.
The problem is that the add-on wont come from eve-hacks.rus, and the first couple of versions will be safe as houses with a couple of bugs, then you will start to get the malicous stuff added as people start to use it more.
Anyone remember mybrute.com? That was initially safe, then it started injecting malicious code.
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Arengor
Glittering Dust
Wild Hunt.
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Posted - 2009.06.01 08:17:00 -
[54]
UI addons is good idea. |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.01 08:40:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Avalon Champion
while I agree that the UI needs to be brough upto date I dont support the introduction of custom add-ons, its the wrong way to go.
Originally by: Kazang
Edited by: Kazang on 31/05/2009 17:46:51Everyone saying that it will result in more hacks or that you would be worried you would get your account pw stolen are all paranoid idiots.
Being a 'paranoid idiot' has kept by computer systems and passwords safe from keyloggers and viruses for 20 years.
Quote:
If you download a "addon" from www.eve-hacks.rus then you deserve to have to account stolen.
The problem is that the add-on wont come from eve-hacks.rus, and the first couple of versions will be safe as houses with a couple of bugs, then you will start to get the malicous stuff added as people start to use it more.
Anyone remember mybrute.com? That was initially safe, then it started injecting malicious code.
I await with bated breath the day that the developers of evemon, eft, battleclinic, eve-files, etc go rogue on us. If you're that paranoid don't install them.
And if you do get scammed? Welcome to eve. Scamming out of game is probably not as encouraged by the developers as it is in-game, but I honestly don't see the difference.
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Zostera
Minmatar
Honour Bound
Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.06.01 09:22:00 -
[56]
How about a compromise.
CCP release the code as part of a "competition". Players are invited to "develop" a new UI or elements thereof for submission to CCP for approval. Any improvement incorporated into the UI by CCP as part of a regular patch could be rewarded with a period of free gameplay and a Yacht.
Improvements could be limited to features which improve the appearance and functionality of the UI without giving any additinal information or automated warnings to the players.
End result... UI improvement is accelerated without security issues since the client would still have to meet the compatible version check etc to ensure that the same UI is available to all, thus negating a mods arms race.
Maybe someone with a coding background could comment on the feasability of this?
Zos |
Neti Keire
Amarr
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Quantum Star Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.01 10:14:00 -
[57]
I disagree with the OP. No player addons to the EVE client, please.
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mazzilliu
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Posted - 2009.06.01 10:45:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Avalon Champion
while I agree that the UI needs to be brough upto date I dont support the introduction of custom add-ons, its the wrong way to go.
Originally by: Kazang
Edited by: Kazang on 31/05/2009 17:46:51Everyone saying that it will result in more hacks or that you would be worried you would get your account pw stolen are all paranoid idiots.
Being a 'paranoid idiot' has kept by computer systems and passwords safe from keyloggers and viruses for 20 years.
Quote:
If you download a "addon" from www.eve-hacks.rus then you deserve to have to account stolen.
The problem is that the add-on wont come from eve-hacks.rus, and the first couple of versions will be safe as houses with a couple of bugs, then you will start to get the malicous stuff added as people start to use it more.
Anyone remember mybrute.com? That was initially safe, then it started injecting malicious code.
i think that will be one of the biggest "what if"'s and practical problems to overcome with implementing this new system- people finding exploits within the addon programming and exploiting it. When I bring this issue up with CCP I think thats one of the major elements of this issue we need to talk about.
some of the possible solutions i can think of-
1. creating a system to share, rate, download addons within the EVE client, and allowing the coders only work within a script environment that is restricted to only certain functions and not others. majority of the population is protected because they dont have to go to 3rd party websites, and they can see if others have had a problem with the addon before.
2. in the event of an exploit being found anyways, only allowing EVE accounts that have been paid for with credit card at least once to post addons to the EVE services. it at least creates a paper trail and discourages most would-be-hackers due to the RL consequences of doing these things.
3. all addons must be open sourced
whats the story behind mybrute? was it the owners trying to make some black market profit or did it get hacked? i never got into it.
MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU. |
mazzilliu
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Posted - 2009.06.01 10:59:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Zostera
How about a compromise.
CCP release the code as part of a "competition". Players are invited to "develop" a new UI or elements thereof for submission to CCP for approval. Any improvement incorporated into the UI by CCP as part of a regular patch could be rewarded with a period of free gameplay and a Yacht.
Improvements could be limited to features which improve the appearance and functionality of the UI without giving any additinal information or automated warnings to the players.
End result... UI improvement is accelerated without security issues since the client would still have to meet the compatible version check etc to ensure that the same UI is available to all, thus negating a mods arms race.
Maybe someone with a coding background could comment on the feasability of this?
it still doesnt address the UI issues of smaller segments of the population, that have their own UI needs that the rest of the population might not share. Colorblind people, people with movement disability, people with poor vision, people with whatever other specific preferences or situations, 100% of them will not have what they want in the game because everybody has to share the same UI.
EVE right now- without player created mods- 99.99% of all the UI complaints are unresolved, and probably never will be. so maybe everyone can have an "equal" UI, that they will all be unhappy about. every UI change that comes in, lots of people are unhappy about.
also releasing the code is far away above and beyond what i'm suggesting. i dont think ccp should release their client source code, and i really doubt they want to either.
MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU. |
Zostera
Minmatar
Honour Bound
Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.06.01 11:58:00 -
[60]
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: Zostera
Stuff
it still doesnt address the UI issues of smaller segments of the population, that have their own UI needs that the rest of the population might not share. Colorblind people, people with movement disability, people with poor vision, people with whatever other specific preferences or situations, 100% of them will not have what they want in the game because everybody has to share the same UI.
EVE right now- without player created mods- 99.99% of all the UI complaints are unresolved, and probably never will be. so maybe everyone can have an "equal" UI, that they will all be unhappy about. every UI change that comes in, lots of people are unhappy about.
also releasing the code is far away above and beyond what i'm suggesting. i dont think ccp should release their client source code, and i really doubt they want to either.
Perhaps source code was a poor choice of words, I'm not in any way a Techy.
I agree with the points you make regarding vision impairment and disablities. Perhaps if "mods" are developed in this area they can be added as a user setting.
It is a contentious issue for sure, and I actually find myself agreeing with both sides. I would like to see greater UI flexibility, but wouldn't want a WoW style addons library with automated warnings for everything. My general direction on it was to open up the opportuity for changes through player development while retaining CCP control of the implementation. An attempt to break the stalemate between the two opposing arguments and find a middle ground.
Zos |
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Jeremey
Glittering Dust
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Posted - 2009.06.01 12:07:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Jeremey on 01/06/2009 12:21:23
Fully supported.
To all those conservatives and bug fearful people:
1. Does example of all Quakes, Half Lifes, Wow and other several hundred games with mods have no value to you? Mods in these games made enormous positive effect on them and their respective game communities.
2. What to so-called "arms race" - where is arms race really, if I'll always be able to download the same mod which makes game UI usable which used by my opponent? What you, conservatives, proposing are really to live in sticky swamp all together in fear that some of us instead can improve life of everyone else (by releasing UI mods).
3. To the ones who is too lazy to imagine that they will need to download not only eve client, but also some mods: don't you see an example of Blizzard, who in one of the patches embedded a bunch of most popular mods/features in their core WoW client to level off the need to download additional mods? Also see p.2.
4. The ones who fear the bots and macroses - I'd say, nothing will change, because now they use programmaticaly unrestricted (on client side) ILLEGAL means to control the game. And in case of mods, if they will attempt to use for this purpose LEGAL means of published mod API/Framework - then, in fact, they will be more restricted in what they will be able to do. In other words, look at WoW macros'es - they have many restrictions about number and type of actions player can perform with mod code.
5. If you fear about client integrity and its source code - don't worry, if devs of any game have any brains, mods are implemented as external API/Framework (maybe even on same programmic language as a game - it doesn't matter) executing in separate interpreter, which places numerous unavoidable restrictions to what mod can do (for example, it cannot get your password or anything like that).
6. Also, don't you understand, that if you think that CLIENT SIDE mods will bring additional load on SERVERS by transporting to them need of secure calculations, it means that NOW Eve client is already flawned because it breaks one of fundamental principles of MMORPG to not trust the client and not use it for server-side calculations. Which, obviously, is not the case (otherwise we'd all seen ibises with doomsdays in Jita long time ago) - so, mods (and, in particular, UI mods) will not bring additional load on server.
7. If you think that good mods/UI will make Eve less hardcore, then think about the fact that it is a good and interesting GAMEPLAY which makes game hardcore and not ugly UI and not devs deficit of time and man resources.
Jeremey,
programmer / game developer with 3 years length of service.
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Nobaudee
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Posted - 2009.06.01 12:09:00 -
[62]
I agree with a contest or some such for the players to develop the UI and let CCP add it in.
The UI needs to be upgraded tremendously. If it comes in thru CCP then there is no way to use it as an exploit or hack.
The UI is obviously not high on CCP's to do list so why not allow the players to do the work.
Make it a regular system that can be used all the time. A player develops an add on and submits it for testing and adding. CCP tests it for compatibility and security and usefulness. Then they can put it on the test server for players to try and see if it would be wanted. Its free help for CCP and the players get to have a more usable UI.
The players get credit for the UI or add on just like other games but officially from CCP. John Black's drone control window.
If players would build a UI or add on for deaf, blind etc without going thru CCP then they would do so while going thru CCP as long as they know it will have a real chance of making it into the game.
This also would allow CCP to control the quality of UI and add on. If it doesn't come up to their standard for the game they send it back with suggested improvements.
Seems to be a win/win situation. Players get improvements, and CCP spends as little resources as possible to get them.
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Jeremey
Glittering Dust
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Posted - 2009.06.01 12:17:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Jeremey on 01/06/2009 12:18:27
Originally by: Nobaudee
Make it a regular system that can be used all the time. A player develops an add on and submits it for testing and adding. CCP tests it for compatibility and security and usefulness. Then they can put it on the test server for players to try and see if it would be wanted. Its free help for CCP and the players get to have a more usable UI.
There is no need in such bureaucratic process, which will add to CCP just more work.
This problem can be solved in much more simple and elegant way - just by carefully designing mods API and executing their code in separate interpreter on client side.
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.01 12:37:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Muad' Dib
Stuff about 3rd part programs, also PL/Goon agenda.
Confirming I get real dollers for supporting mazz. Also confirming pushing PL/Goon agenda for unfair advantages.
Come on, think about it. I know at least a dozen people that used macros for f1-f8 before gun stacking. If client was modable people wouldn't rely on 3rd party software to give them an unfair advantage, but would instead use resources available to everyone (i.e. client modifications, can be available on eve-o for download, or, even better, through an igb interface much like firefox addons). This would actually reduce not increase the number of "3rd party abusers".
I'm not asking for a lot, just make the client more customizable. Like moving around the hud that is now always top/bottom, ability to sort watchlist by hp left/hp missing, etc. It's a scifi game, surely the computer in a superadvanced internet spaceship can handle that? Also, most importantly, HOTKEYS. My RMB is hurting."
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mazzilliu
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Posted - 2009.06.01 13:17:00 -
[65]
Edited by: mazzilliu on 01/06/2009 13:20:54
This is the writeup i'm about to submit for some meeting. i think i worded it to avoid any misunderstandings such as there have been in this thread.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Client_Addons
let me know if theres anything i left out by posting here, and if you make changes to that page(i dont know if you can), im going to revert them.
alt troll is my alt, i havent figured out how to change my character on the wiki yet. it's my first time(except when i defaced that page on sniggerdly one time).
MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU. |
Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
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Posted - 2009.06.01 13:40:00 -
[66]
I was a bit sceptical but after reading the replies it seems like a safe and good idea.
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Radon Kadar
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Posted - 2009.06.01 15:56:00 -
[67]
I think it is a nice idea but it is too late to add something like that now.
It will likely be a lot of work to develop an API for extensions and then may take a lot of time to stabilize and avoid exploits.
The should just get some better UI developers that actually try to play the game or read the forums.
Vote against.
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Kasi Kasai
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Posted - 2009.06.01 16:48:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Kasi Kasai on 01/06/2009 16:47:58
I don't want to play a game where add-ons to clients define outcomes more than player skills. currently, everyone has a level playing field, and its the player that makes the difference, not what add-ons they have.
No support. |
Jeremey
Glittering Dust
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Posted - 2009.06.02 21:19:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Kasi Kasai
I don't want to play a game where add-ons to clients define outcomes more than player skills. currently, everyone has a level playing field, and its the player that makes the difference, not what add-ons they have.
And what makes you think that add-ons determine what player can do if everything what he can is determined by eve server cluster?
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Jeremey
Glittering Dust
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Posted - 2009.06.02 21:28:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Jeremey on 02/06/2009 21:28:53
Originally by: Radon Kadar
I think it is a nice idea but it is too late to add something like that now.
It will likely be a lot of work to develop an API for extensions and then may take a lot of time to stabilize and avoid exploits.
Are you against CCP' patches and their content addons too? They are take long time to stabilize and introduce bunch of bugs and exploits every time too.
The whole idea about UI mods is to free devs from additional unecessary work which can be done by community for benefit of us all. Let's not interpret that like we instead want to give to devs more of a work.
Also, if you think that Eve' source code currently is so poorly engineered that it is hard to implement UI addons API on it, then it is actually an argument for doing its refactoring (along with implementing UI addons API) as soon as possible.
Originally by: Radon Kadar
The should just get some better UI developers that actually try to play the game or read the forums.
It's an utopia: not only a small group of devs cannot do same things that large community can do, but they also do not choose their objectives freely - only by managers and gamedesigners from economic standpoint. And I think that fixing eve interface is just too costly for them, as you correctly said.
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Jeremey
Glittering Dust
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Posted - 2009.06.02 21:32:00 -
[71]
Originally by: mazzilliu
let me know if theres anything i left out by posting here
Please add to your wiki page common arguments and counterarguments on implementing UI mods in game from this thread.
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Jeremey
Glittering Dust
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Posted - 2009.06.02 21:34:00 -
[72]
mazzilliu, also I think that wiki page should contain not only abstract "pros and cons" about UI mods, but also a very clever list of concrete technical solutions about their implementations (taken from this thread, for example).
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Mos7Wan7ed
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Posted - 2009.06.02 22:20:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Mos7Wan7ed on 02/06/2009 22:21:11
its a slippery slope when they open up the client and i understand why they have held back.
if they created a new string of editable values for the client that a client mod tool can alter.
the mod tool can save modifications to a file that can be shared and imported to other players client mod tools.
ccp supports the mods they deem within the elua rules and safe to use.
ccp makes approved mods available on their website.
they edit the elua giving support to the client mod tool being the only form of client editing of the eve interface allowed and leave it at that.
then maybe, it can help to prevent unwanted grey mods that give player benefits from entering main stream.
people only want to customize the ui and not re-wright the client CCP. give them some options.
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Voculus
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.02 23:42:00 -
[74]
UI mods work great in other MMOs, and Eve could benefit just the same.
_________________________________________________________
Give me three turrets on the Naglfar, or give me death! |
SupaKudoRio
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Posted - 2009.06.02 23:56:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Kasi Kasai
Edited by: Kasi Kasai on 01/06/2009 16:47:58
I don't want to play a game where add-ons to clients define outcomes more than player skills. currently, everyone has a level playing field, and its the player that makes the difference, not what add-ons they have.
No support.
Since when has been being able to use your RMB/mouse inhumanely fast been a legitimate 'player skill' in regards to MMOs? EVE's focus is meant to be 'the smarter guy will win', not 'the guy who can navigate a cumbersome, nigh-unplayable UI the best wins'.
-SIG-
The true meaning of CCP; Completely Crap Patches.
Truth. |
Kasi Kasai
|
Posted - 2009.06.03 02:23:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Kasi Kasai on 03/06/2009 02:27:46
Remember Bacon?
Edit:
Eula, section 7.A.2
"You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played."
Everyone who is talking on this forum already signed up to this. |
Aethrwolf
Caldari
Home for Wayward Gamers
|
Posted - 2009.06.03 03:16:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Jeremey
Edited by: Jeremey on 01/06/2009 12:21:23
Fully supported.
To all those conservatives and bug fearful people:
1. Does example of all Quakes, Half Lifes, Wow and other several hundred games with mods have no value to you? Mods in these games made enormous positive effect on them and their respective game communities.
2. What to so-called "arms race" - where is arms race really, if I'll always be able to download the same mod which makes game UI usable which used by my opponent? What you, conservatives, proposing are really to live in sticky swamp all together in fear that some of us instead can improve life of everyone else (by releasing UI mods).
3. To the ones who is too lazy to imagine that they will need to download not only eve client, but also some mods: don't you see an example of Blizzard, who in one of the patches embedded a bunch of most popular mods/features in their core WoW client to level off the need to download additional mods? Also see p.2.
4. The ones who fear the bots and macroses - I'd say, nothing will change, because now they use programmaticaly unrestricted (on client side) ILLEGAL means to control the game. And in case of mods, if they will attempt to use for this purpose LEGAL means of published mod API/Framework - then, in fact, they will be more restricted in what they will be able to do. In other words, look at WoW macros'es - they have many restrictions about number and type of actions player can perform with mod code.
5. If you fear about client integrity and its source code - don't worry, if devs of any game have any brains, mods are implemented as external API/Framework (maybe even on same programmic language as a game - it doesn't matter) executing in separate interpreter, which places numerous unavoidable restrictions to what mod can do (for example, it cannot get your password or anything like that).
6. Also, don't you understand, that if you think that CLIENT SIDE mods will bring additional load on SERVERS by transporting to them need of secure calculations, it means that NOW Eve client is already flawned because it breaks one of fundamental principles of MMORPG to not trust the client and not use it for server-side calculations. Which, obviously, is not the case (otherwise we'd all seen ibises with doomsdays in Jita long time ago) - so, mods (and, in particular, UI mods) will not bring additional load on server.
7. If you think that good mods/UI will make Eve less hardcore, then think about the fact that it is a good and interesting GAMEPLAY which makes game hardcore and not ugly UI and not devs deficit of time and man resources.
Jeremey,
programmer / game developer with 3 years length of service.
1. define "positive".. better does not necessarily have to mean easier
2. Well, when corps/alliances start REQUIRING members to have specific mods running at all times comes to mind.
3. see 2
4. the restrictions in WoW are a joke.. I know several very successful WoW PVP players that have their macroes tweaked to the point that all they have to do in combat is hit a single button repeatedly and move occasionally.
5. hmm.
6. but any type of macro ability.. even limited, will. as they would entail rapid commands to the servers that would normally be spread out.. unless there is a limitation on how fast commands can be made, in which case theres no point for macroes unless you are just too lazy to be bothered to push buttons.
7. I like eve because its NOT easy enough for most of the really annoying players of other MMO's to play.. mods would bring them in droves.. you really want thousands of 12 year old wannabe pirates in eve?
Absolutely everything is subjective. |
mazzilliu
|
Posted - 2009.06.03 14:02:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Jeremey
Originally by: mazzilliu
let me know if theres anything i left out by posting here
Please add to your wiki page common arguments and counterarguments on implementing UI mods in game from this thread.
i listed the arguments and counteraguments under "pros and cons". i left out some arguments that were mentioned in this thread because they were either based on misunderstanding the premise or they are ******ed. maybe i left some out but most of the valid arguments ive seen fall under what i wrote as "equality issues"
(ex. "this new feature breaks the eula!" is not a valid argument)
Originally by: Jeremey
mazzilliu, also I think that wiki page should contain not only abstract "pros and cons" about UI mods, but also a very clever list of concrete technical solutions about their implementations (taken from this thread, for example).
all the concrete solutions we can come up with are only speculation based on how ccp's code actually works. im not going to waste time with solutions that may not be applicable, i'm only going to speak in general terms. if ccp's programmers are good enough to make this feature they can figure out how to code it too.
to the poster above: does that WOW player just use a mod to turn fifteen button clicks into one or something? if someone in EVE pvp did the same action over and over again it would get them killed.
i don't play WOW myself, so I don;t know the specifics of how the wow client mod works, but i do know that all the people i know that do play wow love their client mods and macros and all that stuff, so i think eve should get it too. also when i show them eve's UI they think its pretty ****ty once they get past the pretty spaceships.
MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU. |
fuze
Gallente
Chosen Path
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2009.06.03 14:26:00 -
[79]
To all you people in favor of this out there. Another argument could be that constantly releasing mod upgrades it creates more PR for Eve itself and has a positive influence to draw more players into the game.
And since CCP talked about creating their own-stand alone client for Vivox and other types of communications they could start making that client in a way that people can mod it and everybody can gain some experience from it to see what gives.
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Photon Ceray
|
Posted - 2009.06.03 21:15:00 -
[80]
As much as I agree with you that the current interface is difficult to handel and needs a lot of improvments, I still don't think the public should be allowed to use add-ons, because some people are just better programmers not better players.
Like someone else said, I don't mind being beaten by a better player, but I do mind being beaten by someone who simply knows how to use the interface better and keeps up with the latest and newest addons.
No from me.
o7
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
|
Posted - 2009.06.04 00:32:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Kasi Kasai
Eula, section 7.A.2
"You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played."
Everyone who is talking on this forum already signed up to this.
EULA, section 5
"CCP may, in its sole discretion, amend the EULA from time to time. If the EULA is amended, you will be asked to review the amended EULA when you log into your Account, and to indicate and confirm your acceptance of the amended EULA by clicking the "ACCEPT" and/or "CONFIRMED" buttons."
Please, make a serious argument.
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mazzilliu
|
Posted - 2009.06.04 00:55:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Photon Ceray
I still don't think the public should be allowed to use add-ons, because some people are just better programmers not better players.
Like someone else said, I don't mind being beaten by a better player, but I do mind being beaten by someone who simply knows how to use the interface better and keeps up with the latest and newest addons.
i really dont think you understand the nature of how things are spread on the internet. im pretty sure you didnt code 99.9999999% of the stuff you're running on your computer right now. 99.9999999% of the mod using population wont have coded their own mod. the best mods are not going to be some super secret lock and key thing. the best mods are going to be on the front page of eve's mod website.
you probably found the programs you are currently using because someone or a trusted source recommended them to you as the best. that's how people are going to find mods. i'm not using some super secret awesome internet browser because im in a big alliance, im using firefox because its been recommended as one of the best. opera users aren't going to get a one up on me on internet browsing, but they have their own UI for their own personal wants and that's perfectly fine. that's how i want EVE mods to be like. let us choose what is best for us and don't force us to stick with the default "internet explorer". all three types of programs get the same stuff done, but some of them automatically block popups and so forth.
audio announcements are a step towards what Bacon was creating, but they could also be a help to players with poor vision. i dont know how i feel about that particular issue, but if eve mods were implemented whether playing audio was allowed or not within the mods would be a point of debate definitely.
also, the "alliances requiring everyone to have the same mod" might be a concern, but alliances also require you to get a forum account, install some 3rd party teamspeak or vent or mumble software, buy a mic, and keep a certain level of activity as well as possibly conduct yourself in certain ways in public, and avoid certain associations with other players. if you already have issues with an alliance controlling you, thats not an issue to take up with the people who create new features, thats an issue with your alliance.
MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU. |
Saithe
Caldari
Heretic Army
Heretic Nation
|
Posted - 2009.06.04 01:21:00 -
[83]
I support this. It would be pretty simple to make the UI 100% customizable Clientside, and still have it send the proper information that's required to the eve servers, all this without having to allow 'addons'.
Owing to lack of Eve-related content, signature removed. If you would like to discuss this, please mail [email protected] - Mitnal(lovespinkfont) |
Nifter Fostro
|
Posted - 2009.06.04 01:39:00 -
[84]
Most people seem to not understand how modding works.
How exactly did mods kill WoW? I can't imagine playing with the horrid crap that Blizzard created. But that also freed up developers for content. Win-win.
Currently we are probably going to have to have an expansion dedicated to simply upgrading UI. After that hits, some will like it, some wont. Some would have rather had more content. Letting users create the UI would have pleased everyone.
Tell me exactly how you're going to be WTFPWNT by someone who can tab through his overview targets and press 1 to approach and 3 to warp to zero?
I am personally very frustrated that I have to click everywhere. Letting me sit down write a simple mod that lets me bind keyboard keys to certain commands, would solve a lot of my current problems with EVE.
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Jeremey
Glittering Dust
|
Posted - 2009.06.04 12:59:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Kasi Kasai
Eula, section 7.A.2
"You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played."
Everyone who is talking on this forum already signed up to this.
And so what? We're re-signig to EULA on every patch - so it's no problem for devs to change it if they think it contradicts with content of new patches.
|
Jeremey
Glittering Dust
|
Posted - 2009.06.04 13:07:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Aethrwolf
1. define "positive".. better does not necessarily have to mean easier
2. Well, when corps/alliances start REQUIRING members to have specific mods running at all times comes to mind.
3. see 2
4. the restrictions in WoW are a joke.. I know several very successful WoW PVP players that have their macroes tweaked to the point that all they have to do in combat is hit a single button repeatedly and move occasionally.
5. hmm.
6. but any type of macro ability.. even limited, will. as they would entail rapid commands to the servers that would normally be spread out.. unless there is a limitation on how fast commands can be made, in which case theres no point for macroes unless you are just too lazy to be bothered to push buttons.
7. I like eve because its NOT easy enough for most of the really annoying players of other MMO's to play.. mods would bring them in droves.. you really want thousands of 12 year old wannabe pirates in eve?
1. More stable and creative player base.
2. There's nothing bad in it if it will happen - it's like specific overview settings, which now required in many alliances too.
4. It's because of WoW pvp mechanics, not because of mods.
6. There is point in macroses even if there are restrictions on them - after all, we're talking about UI mods, not some UO-style munchkin code.
7. Again, the game hardcore is determined not by how unusable interface to 12year-old, but how this 12year-old will be unsuccessful in the game despite of interface usability.
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Magnus Orin
Minmatar
Northern Storm
Tenth Legion
|
Posted - 2009.06.04 17:24:00 -
[87]
I'm a relatively new player to EVE (5-6 months or so).
One thing I found extremely refreshing about playing EVE, was that despite the UI being a bit clumsy, awkward and unintuitive, that's what I had, and that is what every single other player in EVE had.
I did not need to search endlessly for UI modifications, download and install each individually, learn their uses, learn which are necessary for pvp, learn which are necessary for pve, all while coping with EVE's already strenuous learning curve.
I am solidly against any sort of UI modifications in EVE, that said, the UI could use some work, personally I would love the ability to hotkey all the commands from the overview box (the one that fills when you select something) i.e. orbit, warp to, align to, keep at distance etc.
________
Please resize sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 and a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal |
ThrashPower
|
Posted - 2009.06.04 18:46:00 -
[88]
Not much to say, this will benefit everyone. Playing mmo's without chat moderation addons has been a horrible experience. And the overview is so bad, I don't even know where to start. |
Therlite
|
Posted - 2009.06.04 18:50:00 -
[89]
Great idea |
Ristavel
Black Rainbow Knights
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Posted - 2009.06.04 18:57:00 -
[90]
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UltraDragon
Black Rainbow Knights
|
Posted - 2009.06.04 18:57:00 -
[91]
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NickSuccorso
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.06.04 19:09:00 -
[92]
Every time I accidentally turn off my warp disruptor or shield booster while trying to overload, I think "gosh, I hope someone who has more patience in dealing with the eve-o forum community than I do will propose some sort of idea to fix some of the horrible Horrible HORRIBLE buttons and UI designs in this game."
Thank you, Mazz. Thank you.
ps: Hey idiots, stop arguing against the source of an idea, and argue the merit of the idea itself. You only sabotage what I'm sure are your good intentions and make yourself look like a dope. These lower boards are a Pro-Logic zone, jerks. |
Photon Ceray
|
Posted - 2009.06.04 19:37:00 -
[93]
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: Photon Ceray
I still don't think the public should be allowed to use add-ons, because some people are just better programmers not better players.
Like someone else said, I don't mind being beaten by a better player, but I do mind being beaten by someone who simply knows how to use the interface better and keeps up with the latest and newest addons.
i really dont think you understand the nature of how things are spread on the internet. im pretty sure you didnt code 99.9999999% of the stuff you're running on your computer right now. 99.9999999% of the mod using population wont have coded their own mod. the best mods are not going to be some super secret lock and key thing. the best mods are going to be on the front page of eve's mod website.
you probably found the programs you are currently using because someone or a trusted source recommended them to you as the best. that's how people are going to find mods. i'm not using some super secret awesome internet browser because im in a big alliance, im using firefox because its been recommended as one of the best. opera users aren't going to get a one up on me on internet browsing, but they have their own UI for their own personal wants and that's perfectly fine. that's how i want EVE mods to be like. let us choose what is best for us and don't force us to stick with the default "internet explorer". all three types of programs get the same stuff done, but some of them automatically block popups and so forth.
audio announcements are a step towards what Bacon was creating, but they could also be a help to players with poor vision. i dont know how i feel about that particular issue, but if eve mods were implemented whether playing audio was allowed or not within the mods would be a point of debate definitely.
also, the "alliances requiring everyone to have the same mod" might be a concern, but alliances also require you to get a forum account, install some 3rd party teamspeak or vent or mumble software, buy a mic, and keep a certain level of activity as well as possibly conduct yourself in certain ways in public, and avoid certain associations with other players. if you already have issues with an alliance controlling you, thats not an issue to take up with the people who create new features, thats an issue with your alliance.
You obviously didn't read my post well, I know that 99.9999% of the people didn't program their addons, but people who have access to better ones and know better tricks will have an out-of-game advantage.
if you ever played wow you'd know that the best pvpers have excellent addons which not everyone knows about, a medicore player with very good addons is likely to defeat an excellent pvper with no addons, and I don't want to same to be in EVE.
Logistics and other stuff DO need addons or at least improvment, pvp has to stay the same for everyone.
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Fennicus
Amarr
United Trade Coalition
|
Posted - 2009.06.04 20:26:00 -
[94]
I'd rather their programmers spent their time on other things, and hired a good UI programmer to overhaul the current system.
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mazzilliu
|
Posted - 2009.06.04 21:31:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Photon Ceray
You obviously didn't read my post well, I know that 99.9999% of the people didn't program their addons, but people who have access to better ones and know better tricks will have an out-of-game advantage.
if you ever played wow you'd know that the best pvpers have excellent addons which not everyone knows about, a medicore player with very good addons is likely to defeat an excellent pvper with no addons, and I don't want to same to be in EVE.
Logistics and other stuff DO need addons or at least improvment, pvp has to stay the same for everyone.
isnt wow PVP based a lot more on how fast you can cast all your stuff though and reaction times? i dont know a lot about WOW much at all but i do know that gameplay is much slower paced and tactical in EVE, such that someone with experience can probably play on the same level as someone with experience and a mod, except they may accidentally buy a 32 million ISK clone rather then a 32 million SP clone occasionally.(raise your hand if you did!) *raises hand*
EVE PVP macros will mean one button pressing F1-F8, and one button for setting speed and orbiting at specific range, and another button for orbiting at a different range, etc. you still have to think about WHICH button you really want to press, but now when you press that button you wont be wasting precious time trying to click click click fhjsfjdkshfd that thing you wanted to click. if youre still too dumb, after addons, to know for example how to fit your ship, then no mod will help you. mods wont be able to make any of the important decisions for you.
so tell me more about these secret UI mods that elite PVPers have that nobody else has, and why nobody else can figure out how to make them.
MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU. |
Alphow
Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.06.05 11:45:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Photon Ceray
if you ever played wow you'd know that the best pvpers have excellent addons which not everyone knows about, a medicore player with very good addons is likely to defeat an excellent pvper with no addons, and I don't want to same to be in EVE.
Wrong, in any case the problem you are portraying is already happening. Mediocre players that know you can customize the overview or download overview profiles made by "elite pvpers" is likely to defeat an excellent pvper who for some reason did not know you could even move the overview window. 
Also in wow there are some good pvp'ers that don't feel the need to use any addons at all, and in the tournaments (RL cash prizes in those) you are not allowed to use addons either. |
BiaXia
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.06.05 13:22:00 -
[97]
If CCP can do this without using a lot of dev time, then I'm for it. It'd be a great help, especially for players with disabilities. My main concern is with CCP's record of quality control, they've proven that they're not exactly competent at catching major bugs (excuse me, features), and I'd hate to have them break the game over something that I view as fairly minor. The potential to help the game is there, though. As long as some sort of improvement to the UI is made, whether CCP or the EVE community makes it, I'm for it. |
Jeremey
Glittering Dust
|
Posted - 2009.06.05 16:47:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Jeremey on 05/06/2009 16:48:57
Originally by: Magnus Orin
One thing I found extremely refreshing about playing EVE, was that despite the UI being a bit clumsy, awkward and unintuitive, that's what I had, and that is what every single other player in EVE had.
I did not need to search endlessly for UI modifications, download and install each individually, learn their uses, learn which are necessary for pvp, learn which are necessary for pve, all while coping with EVE's already strenuous learning curve.
...instead you must learn present eve interface.
And, did I understand you correctly in that you're saying that due to your personal laziness and uncertainty all other players (including noobs) must eternaly suffer from unfinished and buggy UI, without any ability to fix it by themselves?
Originally by: Magnus Orin
the UI could use some work, personally I would love the ability to hotkey all the commands from the overview box (the one that fills when you select something) i.e. orbit, warp to, align to, keep at distance etc.
And how do you think will that happen?
UI mods is real and practical way for this, but all you saying instead of them is just your desires without any light on how they can become reality.
Dream more.
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WheatGrass
Gallente
Silent but Friendly
|
Posted - 2009.06.05 21:46:00 -
[99]
I wonder who will create the add-on of OpenGL. |
shuckstar
Gallente
Hauling hogs
|
Posted - 2009.06.06 03:20:00 -
[100]
no way, hopefully someday CCP will get around to sorting the client interface and UI out.
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NickSuccorso
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.06.06 03:26:00 -
[101]
Originally by: shuckstar
no way, hopefully someday CCP will get around to sorting the client interface and UI out.
While we're waiting for hell to freeze over, why can't we work on these things for ourselves and for our community? |
Kuranta
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
|
Posted - 2009.06.07 12:51:00 -
[102]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Common request.
It's also a stupid question.
Christ no if I want to play client-modification online.
This. No really.
And what about those people not frequenting the forums? |
Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
Underworld Excavators
|
Posted - 2009.06.07 16:35:00 -
[103]
i do not think scanner curcles, local chat wornings and other little things like this can really be considered cheats and will have large influence on the game, why:
Logical explanation:
In a starship you have a computer, combat analisers, navigation comupers, they calculate tragectory of a target ship a fire a railgun charge taking in account trajectory of the charge and the target. I have a suspision that showing a window if person in local appeared is withing the electronic's capabilities.
Practical reason:
Mostg of the people that get cought in low-sec are newbies or aren't used to those areas. The ratters that are used to those areas keep track of local, in mosat cases when they are baited or caught a pop-up window will not save them. |
Jeremey
Glittering Dust
|
Posted - 2009.06.07 18:08:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev
i do not think scanner curcles, local chat wornings and other little things like this can really be considered cheats and will have large influence on the game, why:
Logical explanation:
In a starship you have a computer, combat analisers, navigation comupers, they calculate tragectory of a target ship a fire a railgun charge taking in account trajectory of the charge and the target. I have a suspision that showing a window if person in local appeared is withing the electronic's capabilities.
Practical reason:
Mostg of the people that get cought in low-sec are newbies or aren't used to those areas. The ratters that are used to those areas keep track of local, in mosat cases when they are baited or caught a pop-up window will not save them.
What you're talking about have no relation to discussed topic.
If devs think these things are exploits, they can forbid their modification in UI mods.
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Necronus
Amarr
Monks of War
United Legion
|
Posted - 2009.06.08 09:20:00 -
[105]
The only thing this game doesnt need for 200% is UI-player made modifications.
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Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2009.06.08 11:10:00 -
[106]
Yesterday I came across someone who was using what he called an addon for EVE.
He has a (bloody) massive gaming rig, with multi monitor setup, and runs 1 client per screen for a total of 8. He controls one EVE client, and the other clients are controlled through what he calls mouse cloning (yes, raised an eyebrow here too).
Effectively speaking every movement or action made by his mouse controlling that first eve client is replicated / mirrored / cloned to all his other clients. So, by doing his thing on one client he is getting the other 7 to do exactly the same.
I'm pretty sure this is 100% against the EULA.
He claims it is not a macro which uses repetitive keyboard strokes or mouse movements, he plays EVE "like anyone else" with the bonus that his multi clienting goes "a lot faster".
I claim this falls within the mention in the EULA of "patterns of play".
A brief discussion in the public CSM channel in game yielded agreements on my interpretation here.
The software he uses is a tool which was developed for Wow (yes, yuk) but as he points out it works fine for EVE as well. The software itself was at first outlowed by blizzard, but after adaptations they allowed it, go figure.
It is now marketed as an "addon" for the game.
Now, first of all I do hope CCP pick up on this new kind of crap and put some specifications in the EULA to disallow "mousecloning" or include a specification for that "patterns of play" part.
Secondly, it just makes me think "can of worms" thinking of definitions of addon and customisation and all that, yet here we are actually considering this kind of stuff.
Seriously, if you were even to consider the ideas of addons and customisations seriously the only way to prevent this kind of crap would be a CCP equivalent of how Apple handles iPhone applications. Certification, strict control, indescriminate banning of aps, pure commercial operation. That makes it just that, something which if dubious crap has to be prevented has to be ran as or like a commercial program. Do we really want something like that around EVE?
Not me.
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.06.08 11:47:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 08/06/2009 11:53:33
I don't get why so much hate against this idea.. If CCP does this right it won't make any difference whatsoever, except in the accessibility of client features. For example:
Let people not use right click menus if they don't like them. You still can if you like them.
Let people not click 20 times per invention job if they don't want to. You still can if you like to.
Let people sort their overviews/fleet windows/broadcasts/watch lists/targets the way they want to. You can still use the default if like it so much.
Let people move ship/warp with hotkeys, instead of navigating that old, used up right-click menu, where a couple pixels in a random direction accidentally get you killed for jumping to cyno instead of opening a bridge. It almost sounds like we're playing some twitch shooter game where we hunt pixels with railguns...
These are the kind of changes people want here, not macros, or even automation of things. It's just stuff like gun stacking. Why would you have to click 8 times/press 8 hotkeys if you can do it with one click/hotkey.
Also wouldn't it be nice, if you didn't need EFT to fit your ship, you'd have a "virtual fitter" in the client itself? With an "apply fit to ship" button? Automatically updated with new stats whenever there's a patch, no need to wait for weeks till new eft is out? But CCP isn't going to do this for you, they've got more important stuff going on than your spaceship, and what it can or can't fit.
Another good feature I can think of is fitting ships by copy pasting EFT stuff, again something that CCP will never do, even though it would be pretty easy to put in now that save/load fitting is there. There's a metric crapton of things like this that do absolutely nothing to gameplay itself, but improve the game immensely.
And to everyone bringing up "oh, but then it'll be required to use this crap and that mod and blabla oh and yadayada to be competetive", I'm pretty impressed you're still playing this game. Teamspeak, forums, killboards, evemon, eft, mypos, I could go on forever.
These are all "3rd party mods" to the game. Tell me when was the last time you undocked in a setup, not carefully thought out in EFT? When was the last time you spent money on modules, just to see that they don't fit on the ship? When was the last time you put skills to train before checking evemon+eft if it's actually worth the time? To be quite honest, I don't remember either.
Once you stop using all of the above and whatever others you might be using, you can start whining about client modifications, because in the end, it is the exactly same thing. You have an "advantage" because you used something not made by CCP to make sure your setup/skills are optimal. Or are you now going to ban all these as well? Yeah, I didn't think so.
Edit: And don't even let me get started about the API, the thing that exists because of 3rd party proggies, which obviously suggests CCP is fond of people making things easier for themselves...  |
MiserySignals
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.06.21 19:56:00 -
[108]
Edited by: MiserySignals on 21/06/2009 20:00:02
Edited by: MiserySignals on 21/06/2009 19:56:58
I played WoW for a long time, where in much of the game you simply can't be competitive without using mods that trivialize whatever you're trying to do (raid warnings, threat meters, arena mods, etc.). Limited capability is ideal, imo.
That said, some degree of macro functionality would be a godsend, even if it was just basic things like switching ammo in one button press instead of having to dig through the context menu for the ammo type on the fly, or keep at range/orbit macros that set the range so you don't have to right click the stupid thing on the Selected Object window, go through the context menu and type the range on the fly if you want something that's not in the uselessly list of default ranges. I guess either of these couls also be implemented inside the UI without the risk of opening pandora's box but v0v |
Kaylan Jahlar
Minmatar Industrial Limited
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Posted - 2009.06.22 03:28:00 -
[109]
For having written addons for World of Warcraft, I really support this idea, as long as it's done right and that it's easy to maintain.
If they create an addon engine similar to the one Blizzard made for World of Warcraft (maybe not as advanced, but similar), it would be great.
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Stormaar
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.06.29 13:20:00 -
[110]
God bless you! YES, and YES again.
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Customizable UI / internal API for mods/addons |
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FURY EG
The Corrupt
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Posted - 2009.06.29 22:11:00 -
[111]
Fully supported, although I doubt that the CCP will do it. 
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Mos7Wan7ed
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Posted - 2009.06.29 22:22:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Mos7Wan7ed on 29/06/2009 22:23:11
CCP would never release the client for modification by it's members. to open client for modification would lead to the wholesale re-skinning of the client to make macros and cheating easy.
you should be pushing for is a string of player editable commands that would allow players to modify colors, font, font size, and font color, and other minor things like that.
it should not include skinning of in game objects or changing of in game sounds.
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Vailence
Caldari
Devils Dice
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Posted - 2009.06.30 10:27:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Mos7Wan7ed
Edited by: Mos7Wan7ed on 29/06/2009 22:42:59
you should be pushing for is a string of player editable commands that would allow players to modify colors, font, font size, and font color, and other minor things like that. it should not include skinning of in game objects, creation of executable commands, or changing of in game sounds.
you should stay away from using "players to create addons for the game interface" because it sounds like you want to allow players to create custom UI's rather then modifying CCP's by using CCP's own scripting environment you expect them to create.
CCP sees the entire client as a UI to the database server that actually runs the game.
u didnt know how it work, right? in reality
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Mahai Ano
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.07.07 12:11:00 -
[114]
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Yarik Mendel
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.07 13:09:00 -
[115]
suppa
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drmurda
Arkons of Myth
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Posted - 2009.07.07 19:48:00 -
[116]
/supported -would be nice making custom in space interfaces that let you see what the hecks going on. 
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Vherkin
Amarr
Lucis TechnoCustodia
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Posted - 2009.07.09 02:51:00 -
[117]
Even if some WoW mod was nice. Most of them was a way to give you meta-game ability or/and an avantage again people who dont use them. Im again that.
Even worse, you can actualy make alot of change to ui, its just badly or not explain in-game.
Here some exemple:
- Overload ---> You can create a shortcut in the shortcut section.
- Remove picture and picture column in the chat window ---> Look in the say window, on the right upper corner.
- Color, you find it in the general settings. You have to remove easy theme selection.
- font size/wide? ---> General setting section or for chat window, upper right corner.
- In general settings, to make it easier to move around windows ---> Only stack windows if shift pressed, Lock windows when pinned, window snap distance: Don't snap. That stop the "move around when i log" problem too.
- You can minimize windows when you dont use it, usefull when you have multiple chat windows.
- Move the little picture when you lock something ---> A little cross called: "Targets Origin" close to the left or right upper corner. Its hard to find because of it transparency. Move it around and you can move the say picture.
- Right click on the clock in the bottom left corner ----> Toggle auto hide on/off, Toggle zooms on/off, configure (Accesories,service and world information)
- The overview, you can change alot of thing here.
- Dont forget, when you clean your cache, that remove most of the setting too.
I really love the eve ui, probably because i play alot of gestion game, ui like that is common in these.
A complicate game with alot of option will alway have a complicate ui and alot of windows.
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Master Chaz
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Posted - 2009.07.09 19:52:00 -
[118]
why would CCP even let someone mess with there game?
just start a petition asking for the " mods you wish to see"
you are talking about real money that can be lost on somthing like this
another suggestion would be buy CCP then they would have no risk...
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.10 14:51:00 -
[119]
So Computer savvy peops get a boost?
No to giving advantages to select group of players.
One Game , One Client , Ban Macro'rs if caught.
No No to making it easier to macro or whatever.
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Ivas
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Posted - 2009.07.10 20:08:00 -
[120]
As an addon author for the much maligned (on these forums) WoW, I think you underestimate the allure of e-fame you get for releasing a good addon. Lots of addon projects start out as personal things, but we usually release them straight away to the public because we love ourselves a good ego stroking.
And an expanded userbase helps iron out bugs.
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Omnia mutantur, nihil interit |
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VanNostrum
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.07.10 21:32:00 -
[121]
over my dead body!
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Olga Mokroff
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.07.11 00:20:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Olga Mokroff on 11/07/2009 00:20:39
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES
WOW in space FTW
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Sturn Y
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Posted - 2009.07.11 10:09:00 -
[123]
UI modding supported.
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Ignition SemperFi
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.07.12 23:47:00 -
[124]
somehow this was brought and voted on by the csm... yet this thread itself doesnt even have close to 50% support.
not wanted
----
People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Space Vikings |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Coalition of Free Stars
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Posted - 2009.07.13 01:15:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Ignition SemperFi
somehow this was brought and voted on by the csm... yet this thread itself doesnt even have close to 50% support.
not wanted
Topics are brought to the CSM based on if CSM members want to discuss them, nothing else. Support is intended as a straw poll of the public on an issue - your support is only directly relevant to the actual CSM election.
A lot of the reason for the low support percentage is because of the Assembly Hall support mechanic - a thread with debate looks a whole lot like a thread with low support from the outside. I support this proposal wholeheartedly(to the point where I ran two CSM campaigns with this at the centre of them), but this post will go onto the front-page stats as if I didn't.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.07.14 01:19:00 -
[126]
Supported!
This would free the UI from having to argue with every other player while at the same time begging CCP for improvements.
A modding community would make the EVE client spectacular and release development time to more important matters like bug fixing and better content.
LUA Scripting FTW! Hopefully something more like Javascript would also be an option.
Not only do I support this, I look forward to being a part of this (25 years experience programming).
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SupaKudoRio
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Posted - 2009.07.14 05:34:00 -
[127]
Edited by: SupaKudoRio on 14/07/2009 05:34:29
Originally by: Dav Varan
So Computer savvy peops get a boost?
You think being able to download a file and copy-paste it into a specific folder is 'computer savvy'?
Well, for the terminally stupid I suppose some sort of manager for UI mods would come out eventually... if one is not built in. (ala OBMM to those who play TES4 Oblivion.)
-SIG-
The true meaning of CCP; Completely Crap Patches.
Truth. |
LegendaryFrog
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.07.15 00:55:00 -
[128]
It is as simple as this. The UI is likely the number 1 issue preventing this game from reaching a wider audience. The UI is the source of the most universal complaints from the userbase, however the suggestions on how to fix are severally polarized and inconsistent. The only way I can think of to address this is to adopt a player modifiable interface.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.15 12:31:00 -
[129]
Originally by: mazzilliu
Edited by: mazzilliu on 01/06/2009 13:50:43
Update:
This is the writeup i'm about to submit for some meeting. i think i worded it to avoid any misunderstandings such as there have been in this thread.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Client_Addons
let me know if theres anything i left out by posting here, and if you make changes to that page(i dont know if you can), im going to revert them.
Original thread:
______________________
First of all this thread is sort of a spinoff of the ideas posted in this other thread:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1078379
the following threads are issues that are likely to be solved by this proposal, and i only searched the first four pages of assembly hall:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1019753
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1081108
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1037619
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1067300
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1080625
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1058152
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1080393
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1075507
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1076814
A CCP dev said a while ago that the EVE client does not handle any calculations, it is simply a dumb terminal. This explains why the eve "hackers" cant do much more then macro and take advantage of exploits. so CCP has no serious protections in place to prevent modification of the client, since the damage one can do is limited.
That said, I think we should ask CCP to release some tools for players to make legal client modifications. certain other popular MMOs already allow this and it's an extremely popular feature and seen by players generally as positive. EVE is infamous for its horrible client interface and a lot of specific UI complaints can be solved in one fell swoop if people could write their own game addons.
There are already some addons created by players and exist in a gray area as far as the EULA is concerned- this separates the players who want to be on the safe side and the players who just want an advantage. these addons include macros, local chat warnings for ratters, portrait alterations, scanner circles, et-cetera. how far CCP wants to go as far as allowing these things is up to them, but I think the general idea is something i'd like to see if they can do.
personally, i think there are some balance issues caused by this, but CCP should not rely on a bad interface to create balance anyways. Issues such as a local watch client addon should be addressed directly, rather then simply disallowing addons entirely. programs like "bacon" will always exist for as long as the client's memory can be read by other programs running on the computer.
(what was "bacon"? it was a local watch warning system that took the alert data from the EVE logserver. CCP's solution was to stop sending that event to the logserver)
I support this with 2 caveats:
(1) Only add-ons which are available to ALL players should be permitted.
(2) There should be some kind of review process to make sure that game-breaking "wall hack" style changes aren't introduced.
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mazzilliu
|
Posted - 2009.07.17 01:41:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Malcanis
I support this with 2 caveats:
(1) Only add-ons which are available to ALL players should be permitted.
(2) There should be some kind of review process to make sure that game-breaking "wall hack" style changes aren't introduced.
EDIT: and (3) That CCP should have the right to incorporate any add-ons into the main client.
well, with (1) you should know that any UI that someone tries to distribute to only one alliance will get leaked to the population at large anyways, because lol spies, friends out of corp, and desire to be e-famous. if it has any intrinsic value above and beyond other existing software it will spread. even if there is no mandatory requirement that it does.
(if you doubt any of that, even worthless private forum posts saying nothing of value are leaked. there is no reason a valuable information tool won't if that crap is.)
(2) totally, yes. i think thats going to be a given, and probably one of ccp's top priorities if they arent nuts.
(3) i really hope ccp does this!!
MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU. |
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Tycko Celchu
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Posted - 2009.08.12 05:27:00 -
[131]
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: Soldis
I support this only if mazzilliu will allow me to use his mod.
my current modification to the EVE interface is a bright pink backgrounds and hot pink buttons and pastel pink text background. soooo there you go
Paris Hilton plays Eve too?
...that's hot
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Marquis Dean
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.12 13:19:00 -
[132]
Obviously, addons are a major pro to any game.
There are a lot of things that could look better and use screen space more efficiently, including the overview, chat windows, the basic HUD, along with the way modules are displayed and the list could go on.
I noticed that a lot of people are confusing hacks with addons. I don't see how addons that make it easier for people to use the interface could harm anyone.
The ability to modify these aspects is an important improvement for any MMO, and it's a sign of progress, in my opinion. Games that cannot be tweaked, visually, or functions that cannot be enhanced by way of volunteer scripting are a thing of the past.
If you check out all the emerging MMOs, one would notice that all of them are designed with this possibility in mind. The addon perspective also increases originality and the average lifetime of a game. Why? Because being able to customize your UI is like being able to pimp out your car, it makes you like it more, it provides stuff that you need (and others may not need) and it would allow for more people to get into EVE which = more subs for CCP and more people to shoot/be shot by for us.
Two thumbs up!
---
Originally by: James Russell Lowell
Democracy gives every man the right to be his own oppressor
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sukmanobov
Minmatar
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.12 15:42:00 -
[133]
UNSUPPORTED
Tho i do think they should allow some sort of marco mining client. as my main (this one) is PvP, and my alt is hulk miner. I'd preffer to minamize alts cleint for 30mins-1hr and let it just mine.
As it stands i can fill cargo in about 8-10mins
Basic mods would be good like
HUD/neo-com/UI mods
Custom paint jobs (it Could only be cleint side as it would coz WAYYYYY to mutch lag loading custom paint jobs, But server side would be cool somin like Black, white, blue, red, yellow etc..) Maelstrom would be cool black
Mining Scripts
things that can't be modded
ANY TYPE OF COMBAT MODS is a NO
Except maybe a AFK for miners, PVE pilots with a auto drone launch when a 3rd party cause agro to you. That would also help canflipers, low sec Pirates.
--------------------------------
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Marquis Dean
Caldari
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.12 18:39:00 -
[134]
My God, Privateer recruitment standards have really dropped... Oh wait.
Dear Privateer, could you please exemplify what you understand by "combat mods"?
We're talking about UI customizing here. Illiterate ppl itt!
---
Originally by: James Russell Lowell
Democracy gives every man the right to be his own oppressor
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Belmarduk
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2009.08.12 19:54:00 -
[135]
No
Mainchar:
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.08.13 08:14:00 -
[136]
"wall hacks" LOL.
There are two kinds of multiplayer environments.
One, such as in the XNA Game engine and DirectX systems (like used for FPS games where you can run your own server) do put collision detection and other rule-keeping routines in the clients, making hacked clients the thing of course. Yes, if you shut down collision detection in your client, you can pass through walls. More common are those "head hunter" or "head shot bots" seen in FPS games where, whether client-server or peer to peer, if the collision detection is on the client, it can be hacked.
MMOs typically do not keep rules on the client level. If it were up to every EVE client to determine if their ship was hit or not, that would have been hacked years ago and we would still be talking about that raid on empire space where even CONCORD got popped.
The EVE Client, like the WOW client, is quite "dumb" in that it only interfaces the user and the game construct, but does not keep, track, or enforce the rules. Ever notice how the screen lags when the network lags, or how the ship does not respond if the connection temporarily goes into a high ping state? That's because you only issue commands to the server, but your client does not update your view of the environment until the server sends that information.
WOW does this as well, with the only exception I have noticed being the map height collision and collision with large objects such as trees and structures. This is mostly irrelevant because you can shoot/cast through them, and if you beat the map height, the server "knows" you busted the altitude rule. Once I fell off the world in that game, into nothing, and died at a certain point of the drop.
Customization of the EVE client would not give anybody any advantage over anybody else as far as rules are concerned. Nobody gets an I WIN button. The server keeps the same rules and the client can only send user input and update user perception back.
As for programmers having an advantage over everybody else, there is no history of that. Nobody is going to spend a month on a good client mod just to keep it a dark secret. Programmers need work, and making a popular script or interface mod is a great resume builder.
And client mods only give end users the ability to put buttons and views where they want. A fully customized UI only makes the client fit the brain of the user, but the user still has to know how to play and have the right skills. If I move the locked targets from the uppper right to the left or along the bottom, that does not make them locked up easier or easier to hit. And I don't assume that people with weak necks who can't look up would get and advantage over me when those ships are no longer displayed along the top.
I suggest that the detractors here look at other systems and see how their client UIs were modded, and see that this is not as harmful as it appears.
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Insidious
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Posted - 2009.08.13 14:17:00 -
[137]
oh god yes
can we have this done last year please!
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Marquis Dean
Caldari
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.13 16:05:00 -
[138]
Herzog Wolfhammer nailed it. Addons are a sign of progress, and they should be implemented -asap-.
---
Originally by: James Russell Lowell
Democracy gives every man the right to be his own oppressor
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Nekopyat
|
Posted - 2009.08.13 19:22:00 -
[139]
I would be in favor of some kind of plug-in system.
But instead of it being an easily modified interface where you can exchange version freely, I would rather see a market like solution. Players develop mods, package them up, upload them to the in-game markets, and other players pay for and download them. Mods stay with the account (or even toon) after that.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.08.13 20:44:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Nekopyat
I would be in favor of some kind of plug-in system.
But instead of it being an easily modified interface where you can exchange version freely, I would rather see a market like solution. Players develop mods, package them up, upload them to the in-game markets, and other players pay for and download them. Mods stay with the account (or even toon) after that.
I can think of some mods that could enhance things where some players who have it got an advantage, but therein also sits a solution.
Take for example the case with scan probes. When you reduce the AU scanning radii, you have to move each probe of the cluster closer to each other to regain the lost overlap.
Now imagine if it were possible that this was done automatically in the client. That the distance of the probes in the cluster would remain constant with the variable of the AU search radius.
Why, the player who has that would scan things down faster than those who don't!
EMORAGEQUIT EMORAGEQUIT!!!!!!!!
Such a mo would have to be incorporated into the EVE Client. Look at the WOW client and see how it's extremely easy to find some great mods that help game play.
If such mods were written, and then incorporated into the stock client by CCP by their own standards, THAT would be the Holy Grail of client customization. The person who wrote it would be "famous" in a way. And this would be a feature that explorers are already begging for and CCP would have invested very little time and money on development. I would even hope the CCP offers some plex or ISK for such accomplishments, maybe a faction ship as a reward or something rare.
A stock setting of the Client will no affect mining bots either, and those who don't want to have to put in a module because they simply don't want to (being that lazy in a simulation game is as close to being an inanimate object as I could imagine) simply don't have to.
To say that things should stay the same because some people just don't care to, and therefore we all have to remain at their level, is a kind of socialism in game content that keeps MMOs from expanding. I have witnessed it myself, there are people who won't play a game if they cannot customize their interface. I have seen people get completely turned off by such client programs that they could not rearrange.
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Hun Jakuza
24th Imperial Guard
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Posted - 2009.08.14 03:19:00 -
[141]
+1 Support
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Tiger's Spirit
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Posted - 2009.08.14 03:20:00 -
[142]
Support
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Gavin Darklighter
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.08.14 06:23:00 -
[143]
I would support a modable GUI where you can move the buttons and rearrange menus and stuff, but nothing that would allow any sort of "macros" or "bots". If an action requires a keystroke or mouse-click in the normal client, it should require player input in the modded client as well. I don't want to see people writing their own clients that do stuff like micro-manage drones for them, or clients that monitor local and the ship-scanner to either warn the player or take defensive action automaticly. I also don't want to see custom clients that mine, run missions, or jita-trade automaticly for an AFK player. Or how about a networking client that allows a single player to control an entire fleet. Obviously there needs to be limits here.
signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan |
Awesome Possum
Insert Obscure Latin Name
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Posted - 2009.08.14 15:23:00 -
[144]
UI mods killed WOW as much as Blizz ever did.
Not supported, you have the same exact tools available to you as every other player in this game, deal with it.
♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
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