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Drae Fokker
Caldari
Dark Nebula Academy
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Posted - 2009.05.29 02:43:00 -
[1]
So, simple question. Suppose the Imperial Fleet from Star Wars went up against the Imperium of Man's Navy and Space Marine forces. Who would stand victorious?
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Krystal Vernet
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.05.29 02:45:00 -
[2]
I haven't been able to find out much of the Imperium of Man's naval technology and forces. I can only assume the Empire can overwhelm them with only some minor difficulties.
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Atomos Darksun
Damage Incorporated.
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Posted - 2009.05.29 03:16:00 -
[3]
SPACE MARINES, ATAAAAAACK!
Sorry, but I just can't see stormtroopers standing up very well against the Marines. No idea on starship combat, though.
 Originally by: Amoxin
My vent is talking to me in a devil voice...
CONVERT TO LINKIFICATION!
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameb |
Cikulisuy
Amarr
Damage Incorporated.
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Posted - 2009.05.29 03:26:00 -
[4]
are you serious? a single marine in power armor could destroy entire legions of troopers.. a marine could tear them apart with his bare hands. in terms of starship combat it might be more even, but i mean come on! on the ground at least, no contest what-so-ever
nub> you cant mine so you kill. |
Krystal Vernet
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.05.29 03:34:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cikulisuy
are you serious? a single marine in power armor could destroy entire legions of troopers.. a marine could tear them apart with his bare hands. in terms of starship combat it might be more even, but i mean come on! on the ground at least, no contest what-so-ever
On the ground, I'd give the Space Marines the victory if they were just facing the Imperial Army. However, even how little we know about Imperium of Man's space forces, they could be potentially weaker than the Imperial Navy, and not even Marines can withstand prolonged orbital bombardment.
After some thinking, though, I remembered the Imperium of Man stretches some several thousand systems and quadrillions of people. Their military is a bit stretched to the limit even so, but I imagine they would likely outnumber the Empire. We just need more information on their space forces to know for sure, tohugh.
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Lefevre
Caldari
The Glenn Quagmire Finishing School for Young Ladies
Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.05.29 05:16:00 -
[6]
Star wars blaster = 2sec rof pew pew
war40k heavy bolter ^^ nuff said
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Chode Rizoum
http://gigkb.skullone.net/?a=homehttp://gigkb.skullone.net/?a=home[/url][/url]
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Sadayiel
Caldari
Silver Snake Enterprise
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.05.29 05:40:00 -
[7]
wh40k imperium of man wins.
any normal fleet size on wh40k got enough firepower for Exterminatus if needed (devastate a whole planet),while in star wars they need the freaking death star.
also consider the weaponry difference, most of star wars design it¦s based in shinny and spectacular looking, while in wh40k the common it¦s something equal to an automatic rpg (bolter)
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You know what the chain of command is?
It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til you understand who's in ruttin' command here. |
Meiyang Lee
Gallente
Azteca Transportation Unlimited
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.05.29 07:51:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Meiyang Lee on 29/05/2009 07:52:32
Originally by: Drae Fokker
So, simple question. Suppose the Imperial Fleet from Star Wars went up against the Imperium of Man's Navy and Space Marine forces. Who would stand victorious?
The Imperium of Man (40k) of course. Those puny turbolasers of the Empire wouldn't even scratch the dozens (up to hundred from the front) of meters of adamantium armour on most Imperial starships, let alone penetrate the voidshields on a warship.
Also ship size, an Imperial cruiser (i.e. aside from escorts the smallest ships of the line) are around twice the size of a star destroyer, an Imperial Battleship (they have thousands of these) would dwarf anything short of a Deathstar.
These ships fire Torpedoes that are 100 meters long, with multistage warheads, Lances (Beam lasers on a ridiculous scale) or even Macro Cannon (guns firing shells the size of apartment blocks) would reduce most Empire ships to scrapmetal in a volley at most. And that's without resorting to Nova Cannon. (Shell the size of a football stadium that rips holes in spacetime)
And they'd outnumber the pitiful starwars empire hundreds to one.
A single sector fleet would probably get the job done quite easily.
Most sci-fi universes wouldn't stand a snowflakes' chance in hell against the Imperial Navy.
And we're not even considering boarding parties here. Space Marines may be rare, but even a handful of those teleported aboard a ship could probably destroy it quite easily.
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Merin Ryskin
Blood Money Inc.
Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2009.05.29 08:15:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 29/05/2009 08:16:52
Instead of just naming different technologies, try doing the physics calculations and comparing the actual damage done by each side. End result is 40k gets blown to scrap metal, and that's not even counting the three most beautiful words in a scifi debate: "commence primary ignition".
And that's not even considering the Empire's massive industrial advantage... millions of systems, and the ability to build the second death star in months in complete secrecy. Consider how many ships would fit in the volume of the death star, and what that means for the production rate of traditional ships.
PS: who cares about ground troops. It doesn't matter how awesome they are if they just die uselessly to orbital bombardment.
Originally by: Sadayiel
any normal fleet size on wh40k got enough firepower for Exterminatus if needed (devastate a whole planet),while in star wars they need the freaking death star.
Two mistakes:
1) The death star is not necessary. A single star destroyer can reduce a planet to a giant pool of molten rock within a matter of hours.
2) The death star represents orders of magnitude more firepower than simply "devastating" a planet. The death star doesn't just utterly destroy the planet, it explodes it with such massive overkill that the fragments are completely blown apart into a huge asteroid field (consider the gravitational potential energy that needs to be overcome to do this).
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Jhagiti Tyran
Mortis Angelus
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Posted - 2009.05.29 08:46:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Jhagiti Tyran on 29/05/2009 08:48:21
Ground wars would be totally one sided because of the Combination of Astarte's and titan legions not including the imperial guard, in a space battles it would be pretty much the same when you bear in mind a small Sword class frigate outmatches a stardestroyer in both size, firepower and defenses and if you take the largest super star destroyer the Empire has relatively few of them but a single 40k Battle fleet have dozens of Battleships that are greater in size and power and these are supported by a large amount of cruisers and even "grand cruisers" with several squadrons of frigates (frigates operate in squadrons of three vessels) and there are thousands of battle fleets (the largest sub sectors have multiple fleets, smaller ones maybe one or two)
As for the Death star it could probably inflict some heavy losses not just because of the super laser but its thousands of smaller batteries and fighters but boarding parties and the huge firepower it would be facing would overwhelm it and don't forget the Mechanicus are fully capable of building super weapons like the already mentioned Nova cannon and they also constructed a planet shattering weapon called the Furious Abyss which was designed to use special weapons to crack a planetary body into fragments but post heresy they where forbidden to create anything like it again.
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Zakarazor
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Posted - 2009.05.29 08:55:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Zakarazor on 29/05/2009 08:55:15
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 29/05/2009 08:16:52
Instead of just naming different technologies, try doing the physics calculations and comparing the actual damage done by each side. End result is 40k gets blown to scrap metal, and that's not even counting the three most beautiful words in a scifi debate: "commence primary ignition".
And that's not even considering the Empire's massive industrial advantage... millions of systems, and the ability to build the second death star in months in complete secrecy. Consider how many ships would fit in the volume of the death star, and what that means for the production rate of traditional ships.
PS: who cares about ground troops. It doesn't matter how awesome they are if they just die uselessly to orbital bombardment.
Originally by: Sadayiel
any normal fleet size on wh40k got enough firepower for Exterminatus if needed (devastate a whole planet),while in star wars they need the freaking death star.
Two mistakes:
1) The death star is not necessary. A single star destroyer can reduce a planet to a giant pool of molten rock within a matter of hours.
2) The death star represents orders of magnitude more firepower than simply "devastating" a planet. The death star doesn't just utterly destroy the planet, it explodes it with such massive overkill that the fragments are completely blown apart into a huge asteroid field (consider the gravitational potential energy that needs to be overcome to do this).
i dont agree. sure i dont got the numbers but i would say that a empire that have spend 40 thousand ****ing years at a state of constant war know war pretty well. and no you cant solve everything with orbital bombardment. there might be mission objectives on the ground that need to be solved or protected. also if you bomb all planets to glass you are cutting your own head of from the logistics POW.
there is a reason to why we got soldiers nowdays even when we can just bomb the **** out of a target.
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Merin Ryskin
Blood Money Inc.
Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2009.05.29 09:04:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran
Ground wars would be totally one sided because of the Combination of Astarte's and titan legions not including the imperial guard, in a space battles it would be pretty much the same when you bear in mind a small Sword class frigate outmatches a stardestroyer in both size, firepower and defenses and if you take the largest super star destroyer the Empire has relatively few of them but a single 40k Battle fleet have dozens of Battleships that are greater in size and power and these are supported by a large amount of cruisers and even "grand cruisers" with several squadrons of frigates (frigates operate in squadrons of three vessels) and there are thousands of battle fleets (the largest sub sectors have multiple fleets, smaller ones maybe one or two)
Size =/= firepower. A single Culture ship the size of your car would probably kill the entire 40k navy in the time it took you to write that post.
If you read the calculations people have done (see here for a good example, the general consensus is 40k ships are out-gunned on an individual basis around 10-1 by star wars
Quote:
As for the Death star it could probably inflict some heavy losses not just because of the super laser but its thousands of smaller batteries and fighters but boarding parties and the huge firepower it would be facing would overwhelm it and don't forget the Mechanicus are fully capable of building super weapons like the already mentioned Nova cannon and they also constructed a planet shattering weapon called the Furious Abyss which was designed to use special weapons to crack a planetary body into fragments but post heresy they where forbidden to create anything like it again.
Jump in, BOOM, jump out. There isn't any TIME for "huge firepower" to overwhelm it. The result is within a few days, every major planet in the 40k universe has been reduced to a cloud of dust.
PS: any universe where boarding parties are a valid combat tactic immediately (outside of rare situations were capturing the target intact is absolutely required) rates pretty low on the scale of military power.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.05.29 09:05:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
2) The death star represents orders of magnitude more firepower than simply "devastating" a planet. The death star doesn't just utterly destroy the planet, it explodes it with such massive overkill that the fragments are completely blown apart into a huge asteroid field (consider the gravitational potential energy that needs to be overcome to do this).
While it's not common (being one of those "hard to replicate technologies" like Terminator armor etc) a regular 40k cruiser can do that as well.
Two stage exterminatus torpedoes where a meltawarhead blows a path to the core of the planet and a modified cyclone warhead detonates in the core, at the very least destabilizing the planet and possibly blowing the planet apart.
Virusbombs (liquifying and igniting all biomatter) and cyclone warheads (igniting the atmosphere for TPKs) are just more common and easier to make.
Anyway. It's space opera vs grimdark space opera fueled by the Rule of Cool.
Of course 40k wins, Star wars simply isn't as over-the-top as 40k (where apocalypses blowing apart planets or even starsystems happens pretty much at the drop of a hat).
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-My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
Merin Ryskin
Blood Money Inc.
Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2009.05.29 09:12:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 29/05/2009 09:16:51
Originally by: Zakarazor
i dont agree. sure i dont got the numbers but i would say that a empire that have spend 40 thousand ****ing years at a state of constant war know war pretty well.
Exactly, you don't have the numbers. Thousands of years at war doesn't mean anything when you're out-gunned 10-1 ship to ship, and the other guy can produce orders of magnitude more ships than you along with superweapons that can kill every major planet in your empire in a couple days.
Quote:
and no you cant solve everything with orbital bombardment. there might be mission objectives on the ground that need to be solved or protected. also if you bomb all planets to glass you are cutting your own head of from the logistics POW.
The assumption here is that the goal is conquest, not the removal of a threat. Why anyone would actually want the absolute hell that is the 40k universe, I have no idea. Any sane Imperial commander would take one look at the place, and then settle for removing it as a threat.
Quote:
there is a reason to why we got soldiers nowdays even when we can just bomb the **** out of a target.
Because we feel obligated to obey certain rules of "civilized" war, in addition to concerns of MAD.
The former obviously doesn't apply to an empire that considers destruction of major populated worlds a legitimate interrogation technique, and the latter, well, for a MAD scenario you need to have the ability to actually hit back.
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Merin Ryskin
Blood Money Inc.
Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2009.05.29 09:16:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
While it's not common (being one of those "hard to replicate technologies" like Terminator armor etc) a regular 40k cruiser can do that as well.
The difference is it's not a special technology in Star Wars, it's just a side effect of having lots of really big guns on their ships. Any random star destroyer can do the job in a few hours.
Quote:
Two stage exterminatus torpedoes where a meltawarhead blows a path to the core of the planet and a modified cyclone warhead detonates in the core, at the very least destabilizing the planet and possibly blowing the planet apart.
Virusbombs (liquifying and igniting all biomatter) and cyclone warheads (igniting the atmosphere for TPKs) are just more common and easier to make.
Not only are bioweapons irrelevant to a question of ship firepower, but note that these are cheats. A star destroyer can turn a planet into a blob of molten rock just by shooting at it with its normal guns. And unlike the 40k ship's torpedoes, you can't shoot down incoming turbolaser fire, the only way to survive is to have enough shields/armor to take the hits. End result is the 40k ship gets ripped apart effortlessly.
Quote:
Anyway. It's space opera vs grimdark space opera fueled by the Rule of Cool.
Of course 40k wins, Star wars simply isn't as over-the-top as 40k (where apocalypses blowing apart planets or even starsystems happens pretty much at the drop of a hat).
And then the Culture comes in and kills everyone, removing your annoying "OMG WE ARE MORE DEPRESSING THAN YOU!!!!!!!!!!" universe.
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Zakarazor
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Posted - 2009.05.29 09:22:00 -
[16]
the culture is kinda hax isnt it merin^^
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Meiyang Lee
Gallente
Azteca Transportation Unlimited
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.05.29 09:39:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Zakarazor
the culture is kinda hax isnt it merin^^
The culture as such isn't, it's GridFire that's Hax, pure and simple. 
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Karma
Vortex Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.05.29 09:53:00 -
[18]
a question:
who is running the Starwars Empire in this scenario?
the Emperor? or Grand Admiral Thrawn?
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Dan Glebitts
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Posted - 2009.05.29 10:14:00 -
[19]
Oh Oh Transformers would... wait.
hmm.. My money is on the Imperium. Remember they would have superior logistic's with their warp travel being instantaneous.
Besides Storm Troopers are lame as. If that motlew crew of half wits can eliminate whole squads of them a Space Marine would wade through them chuckling.
Force Powers?... How about some Psychic Powers from a Librarian. Stars Wars baddies are too emo and just plain camp to be effective ;p
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Jhagiti Tyran
Mortis Angelus
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Posted - 2009.05.29 10:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
A star destroyer can turn a planet into a blob of molten rock just by shooting at it with its normal guns. And unlike the 40k ship's torpedoes, you can't shoot down incoming turbolaser fire, the only way to survive is to have enough shields/armor to take the hits. End result is the 40k ship gets ripped apart effortlessly.
40k lance> Turbo laser, A single lance strike can vapourise a city yet the Millenium falcon gets hit but several turbo laser strikes with little effect.
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Culmen
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.05.29 11:10:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Culmen on 29/05/2009 11:10:18
Simply put this entire argument is pointless
No two authors agree on even what size a Imperium of Man Star Ship is. let alone their capabilities.
They range from Current BS to EvE Size to Tacking on arbitrary zeros.
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
If you read the calculations people have done (see here for a good example, the general consensus is 40k ships are out-gunned on an individual basis around 10-1 by star wars. And don't forget the staggering differences in industrial capacity. Besides conservative estimates of the Imperial fleet at 25,000 star destroyers, the Empire built the second death star in months in complete secrecy.
Bear in mind, these aren't the most objective people considering its from StarDestroyer.net
Judging by the first couple of pages they are basing off Abnet or whoever's novels. This was a guy who's approach to aerial combat was to replace the words German with Chaos, Messerschmidt with Hell Claw. So yes, they could probably take out a world war 2. But as WH40k has a habit of pulling canon out of goatse's ass hole (AKA the eye of terror) there's no basis for comparison. The average battle ship could be smaller then the tantive five or it could be near death star sized with the firepower to boot. Depends on which author you ask... heck it might even depend on where in the WH 40k universe you are.
But overall, put it this way.
The Galactic empire, suffered ONE major rebellion and got it ass handed to it by Ewoks.
The Imperium of Man, survived a rebellion involving super humans and no less then 4 GODS, and then went on 20 thousand years and counting.
Last i checked Coursant wasn't held by Emperor Palpatine. But Holy Terra still has it's original guards
and further more why do i even need a sig? |
OKAAAAAAAAAAAAAR
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Posted - 2009.05.29 13:16:00 -
[22]
You people are forgetting the death star has a little hole in it that if you drop something even slightly explosive in the whole thing explodes.
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente
War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.05.29 13:28:00 -
[23]
If it was Fluff Marines? Then the Imperium.
If it was table-top balanced Marines, then it could go either way.
Overall? Tyranids. 
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Daphne Mezereum
Caldari
Half Lethal
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Posted - 2009.05.29 13:49:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Daphne Mezereum on 29/05/2009 13:48:50
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Overall? Tyranids.
:mechanical klanking sound:
Necrons.
Or Eldar. FFS, show me a single WH40K entity that could stop the 'nids.
Oh, by the way, the sizes of WH40K ships are very well documented in the Battlefeleet Gothic rulebooks.
Anyway, the Imperium of Man wins hands down. It has a much better dispersed infrastructure. You could evaporate half the IoM, and it still would function. Eliminate Kuat Drive Yards, and voila, who the hell is going to produce your pretty little ships?
Oh, btw, the IoM held the freaking Orks at bay. Orks rule above all (or would if they had a unified empire)
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Iasius
The Fated
E.Y
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Posted - 2009.05.29 14:47:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Iasius on 29/05/2009 14:51:58
wh40k imperium of man is win 
'Better to die for the emperor than live for yourself'.
'If a job's worth doing its worth dieing for'.
Though my fave race is Necron. Ancient, unyielding, relentless
.
Scifi lore is based on current technolgy extrapolations about possible spaceships. IMO
its like steam engines in space. As a race humans are narrow minded that linear time within 3 dimensions is all there is. Mastery of the cosmos will require the ability to 'move in the spaces between spaces' and to surpass linear time.
In this vein i think the human race is going to get shafted with the advent of quantum computers ->AI.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Gabrialle
Amarr
Sanctuary Logistical Industries Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.29 15:14:00 -
[26]
All academic, george lucas will just add more 0's to the end of SW's ship specs.
GENERATION 21: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. |
Anyura
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Posted - 2009.05.29 15:23:00 -
[27]
For all those claiming thatthe standard Space Marines would go through standard Imperial infantry like they weren't there, I see your assault marine and raise you a Dark Trooper: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_trooper.
Heavily armoured stormtroopers, they were equipped with jetpacks, a combination plasma rife/missile launcher and some basic Force training in addition.
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Gabrialle
Amarr
Sanctuary Logistical Industries Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.29 15:37:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Anyura
For all those claiming thatthe standard Space Marines would go through standard Imperial infantry like they weren't there, I see your assault marine and raise you a Dark Trooper: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_trooper.
Heavily armoured stormtroopers, they were equipped with jetpacks, a combination plasma rife/missile launcher and some basic Force training in addition.
And there whole production facility and a sizable portion of there combat-ready forces were wiped out by ONE man.
GENERATION 21: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. |
Alex Raptos
Caldari
Phoenix Rising.
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Posted - 2009.05.29 15:42:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Gabrialle
Originally by: Anyura
For all those claiming thatthe standard Space Marines would go through standard Imperial infantry like they weren't there, I see your assault marine and raise you a Dark Trooper: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_trooper.
Heavily armoured stormtroopers, they were equipped with jetpacks, a combination plasma rife/missile launcher and some basic Force training in addition.
And there whole production facility and a sizable portion of there combat-ready forces were wiped out by ONE man.
Stopping bringing outside participants in, this is about WH40k guys vs The Empires guys. Not what previous successes/failures they have befallen before.
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
I've become gay for Mark Harmon despite my initial reservations about the show NCIS but nobody will ever know
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Daphne Mezereum
Caldari
Half Lethal
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Posted - 2009.05.29 15:52:00 -
[30]
^^This.
If the SW guys get Dark Troopers, then I want Forbidden Tech, Void warheads, and at least three Primarchs added to my 40K troops. Thank you.
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