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McRoll Minmatar Heatseekers	Posted - 2009.05.29 11:19:00 - [1] I am speaking from the Minmatar point of view here because i dont know about the other races frigs tho i think they lack usefulness as well. Besides the Rifter, what is the purpose of flying the other T1 frigs? I never see anyone using them because even a several hours old char can already aquire a Rifter. A new char will most probably run some missions first where the Rifter surpasses the other frigs by far. There is the Vigil which is never used because it provides only a target painter bonus, the Slasher is only a weaker Rifter with same bonuses and a bit faster...the Breacher might be useful but people who choose to fight with missiles go Caldari anyway, Minmatar starter chars usually skill gunnery first- and the last one is the Burst, a mining frig...i dont know about mining but i doubt that miners will use that for more than a couple of hours before getting into something more useful. So basically there is a ****load of T1 frigs in game but only 1 or 2 from each race are really used... variety is always good but is there a point in it if only 1 shiptype is used?
Forcerix Dragoon Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.05.29 11:34:00 - [2] Originally by: McRoll i dont know about mining but i doubt that miners will use that for more than a couple of hours before getting into something more useful. And how do they make isk to buy something "more useful"? That's right, the T1 frigate.
1600 RT	Posted - 2009.05.29 11:35:00 - [3] burst is the mining frigate and mine better that a rifter. vigil is the EW frigate its faster and use target painter better than a rifter, shame that target painter are not so much useful. probe is a good little hauler and the only minmatar frig with bonus to scan probe. breacher is a missile frigate spew missiles better than the rifter and sometime is better than a rifter at running lv1 missions. slasher is very cheap and can do lv1 mission a perfectly fine ship to make money for the rifter. rifter of course is the best ship for pew but all the other ships work just fine to what they are supposed to do.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2009.05.29 12:12:00 - [4] Tech 1 frigates, despite having differing bonuses and some being close to useless offer choices to a new player. When I was a new player, I remember how excited I was to upgrade from an Atron to a Tristan. And then I bought a Catalyst, then a Vexor. Understand that tech 1 frigates have three distinctive tiers. Tier 1: Noobship Tier 2: Mining, Combat, Astronomics/Cargo and EWar Tier 3: Combat, Combat variant At the start, each of these offers initial professions to chase after. When you become a seasoned pilot however, they offer distinctive options to cheapen an endeavor. Using a Cargo frigate for example makes an excellent ship-fit hauler (I typically will buy fits for my ship and move them using a cargo frigate). It's all about variety and roles. They are all useful, just by how much is up to you. www.siigarikitawa.com ò www.quafeultra.com ò Buy a GTC
Lubomir Penev Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2009.05.29 12:53:00 - [5] Originally by: McRoll There is the Vigil which is never used because it provides only a target painter bonus, Lost all credibility here. Fastest t1 frigate in game, commonly used s a tackler. It is common to dump them at POS to tackle stuff for POS gunners to kill. Probe is an awesome small cargo ship (1.8 seconds align time well fitted). Slasher and burst not as useful but a great bang for the buck. Breacher make a very good angel ratting ship. Quote: So basically there is a ****load of T1 frigs in game but only 1 or 2 from each race are really used... variety is always good but is there a point in it if only 1 shiptype is used? I think you have amply been proved wrong. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog
McRoll Minmatar Heatseekers	Posted - 2009.05.29 13:01:00 - [6] Edited by: McRoll on 29/05/2009 13:04:20 Maybe ill put it that way: In theory, every frigate has a role, but in practice only few people use them in their intended role. And while they are used at the very beginning (like the mining frig) its often only a matter of hours or, at most, days before they are replaced with other ships and are never touched again. The cap between, say, a Slasher and a Rifter isnt that big and there are sometimes buddys or other players who help out with a few bucks so the new guy can move directly to the Rifter at the beginning. For the mining, i imagine that you can put more mining lasers on a destroyer which surpasses the bonus on the burst (i guess). I tell you this because i remember how i started, i had my Rifter on the second day of playing and i never touched the other frigs again, i think i used a Slasher for a couple of hours, that was all. As for PvP, i cant imagine someone starts that early and actually uses the Vigil because of its TP bonus- i'd rather take the better survivability and DPS of the Rifter.... That problem also concernes other ship classes, there are enough unused cruisers as well (who would take a Bellicose over a Rupture just because of TP bonus?) I just think that CCP should take a look at some ships and try to give them a better use instead of adding new ships to the game- if you want to get knowledge about most ships and their attributes for PvP, it's already enough. edit: Yeah i forgot to mention the Probe, i actually used that for scanning.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.05.29 13:10:00 - [7] Vigil is a ridiculously fast tackler, and naturally has the TP bonus which can be useful sometimes. Slasher is almost as fast as a Vigil, with more DPS. breacher can sit out at 20km and do good damage, whereas other t1 frigs really need to get close.
McRoll Minmatar Heatseekers	Posted - 2009.05.29 13:48:00 - [8] Youre comparing apples and eggs there. Jamming is the most powerful electronic warfare in game, it disables battleships while target painting only increases sig radius and helps hitting small and fast targets (and its mostly used with missiles anyway). So if your in a small gang, DPS and EHP of every single ship matters and i highly doubt you will see Bellicoses there. At least I never do. The same with Vigils or the other frigs you mentioned, i did quite some PvP already, in empire, lowsec and 0.0, solo and in gangs, i have yet to see a tackling Vigil. Anyway, those were only examples of the Minmatar ships, there are a lot more ships in game i never see, which is a shame actually.
Lubomir Penev Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2009.05.29 14:06:00 - [9] Originally by: McRoll The same with Vigils or the other frigs you mentioned, i did quite some PvP already, in empire, lowsec and 0.0, solo and in gangs, i have yet to see a tackling Vigil. Throw away vigil used as a tackler at a POS, not by noobs either. Just better for the job than a Rifter. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog
C frost	Posted - 2009.05.29 15:17:00 - [10] The view the opening poster has seems to reflect to the idea that many new pilots have. Get into a rifter and forget the rest. The more experience I get though, the more I realise this is completely wrong. For example the Vigil is an outstanding ship with great utility. It can be a target painter when required. Can do well over 4000mps with solid skills and makes a great tackler. Not sure if its changed but always used one for speed/ninja salvaging. usefull as an emergency scout. I myself prefer it over a rifter for support work.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.05.29 16:38:00 - [11] Quote: Youre comparing apples and eggs there. Jamming is the most powerful electronic warfare in game, it disables battleships while target painting only increases sig radius and helps hitting small and fast targets (and its mostly used with missiles anyway). So if your in a small gang, DPS and EHP of every single ship matters and i highly doubt you will see Bellicoses there. At least I never do. The same with Vigils or the other frigs you mentioned, i did quite some PvP already, in empire, lowsec and 0.0, solo and in gangs, i have yet to see a tackling Vigil. You're confusing versatility with power. Also, you are ignorant as to the uses of the TP. The TP is useful against small and fast targets...But it's primary role is IN a small/fast ship gang. TPs are useful because they help tracking regardless of where the transversal comes from...whereas webs only fight transversal caused by the target's movement. TPs aren't used much because people don't know what they're for. Jamming is the most VERSATILE EW...but not really the most powerful. TPs ALWAYS have the desired effect. ECM doesn't.
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2009.05.29 16:51:00 - [12] Why would anyone fly the Hawk when the Kestrel is superior in pretty much every way aside from base resists? It's rather hard to tackle in a Retribution, yet a well flown-and-fit Punisher makes a wonderful throw-away heavy (for a frigate) tackler. And let's not forget that the Incursus and the Atron are pretty much the only T1 ships in the game that get a bonus to hybrid falloff range. T1 frigates are fine. They are cheap, fast, and still useful for people who either can't afford or can't fly T2 frigates. T2 cruisers are a lot more expensive to lose and require a lot longer to train, which is why it's more common to see T1 cruisers in a gang than it is to see T1 frigates. The Merlin could use the third turret hardpoint that it got denied in the Great Caldari Railboat Buff, but otherwise I see no problem with T1 frigates. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Kir'ian Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.05.29 17:07:00 - [13] I think the "answer" really depends on what you do, if you fly with a group, or if you are into PVP. When I'm just looking for some fast missioning, I fly a rifter in level 1s. I don't really get to gang much, so other frigates roles in a gang aren't really relevant to me. I notice them when some gang jumps me though, and the organized gangs really make my life hell (must get a jump clone soon). So like most games... there isn't a one size fits all, unless you are talking about all level 1 mission runners, or cheap mining without ORE ships, or... whatever. Broaden your job base and the other t1 frigs might suddenly be a little more useful. Spectacularly more useful? Maybe not. But sometimes a "little bit" better can make life a bit more enjoyable. Maybe...
Lyvanna Kitaen Minmatar Noonday Sun Corp	Posted - 2009.05.29 17:50:00 - [14] The Probe makes a good beginning hauler and miner. It also gets an astrometrics bonus, so it's a good ship to explore with until you can fly a covert ops.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Buffalo Soldiers	Posted - 2009.05.29 17:53:00 - [15] Originally by: McRoll That problem also concernes other ship classes, there are enough unused cruisers as well (who would take a Bellicose over a Rupture just because of TP bonus?) It's a T1 cruiser that has four mid slots. It can be fit like a Vagabond. People who would run away from your Vagabond will stay and fight you in a Bellicose. They forget it has a 40m3 drone bay. *-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then* --**
Myrkala Minmatar Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2009.05.29 17:54:00 - [16] PVP: If it has more than one mid slot its not useless. "Ruppie ain't no puppie."
Wayay Bonnylad	Posted - 2009.05.29 18:02:00 - [17] I used to be of the opinion that there is no point in having any T1 Minmatar frigate other than the Rifter after the first day of playing. A couple of weeks later I realised that the Probe is an awesome little ship to have in the hangar, with its relatively decent cargo hold and quick align time it is perfect for those little freight jobs that need doing from time to time. I have had one in the hangar ever since - two since the scanning changes. Even though I have been playing for well over a year and can fly anything battleship and smaller (Minmatar) I still regularly take a spin in a Vigil, Probe and Rifter. The Vigil is a nice throwaway tackler (as said above) but makes an even better ship for pootling around in lowsec. It is so fast that no ship that is capable of withstanding gate gun fire stands much of a chance of getting a tackle onto it and holding it. It also makes a nice little ship to take along in a 0.0 roaming gang to add some TP loving, but TBH my Scimitar is usually more in demand :)
Benco97 Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.29 19:52:00 - [18] The mining frigates are all easy to build, Easy to fly, Agile and mine faster than a Procurer. However, admittedly the Burst is somewhat lacking when compared to the Bantam, Navitas or Tormentor. ACTUALLY, the shortcomings of the Burst are something I can (And often do) go into great length explaining, would you like me to? Originally by: P'uck You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
Siddeus	Posted - 2009.08.20 15:01:00 - [19] Edited by: Siddeus on 20/08/2009 15:04:05 Its all down to choice. Alot and I mean alot go for the Rifter. I have used one myself. Its a nice fast T1 frig. But if you want a T1 Frig that just makes mission running or low end rat killing cake then a Breacher or the Kestrel for me beats the Rifter. Throwing three to four missiles at a target from 15km+ away, they do not even get a chance to get into range to bring their weapons into play. And the target does not live past the forth missile. Atm is nice not having to warp out to rep a ship then warp back in to fight again. And that last high slot on my breacher using a salvager so making some nice ISK. Putting a AC or arty there just a waste lol.
Elo Behram Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.20 15:08:00 - [20] vigils are the best T1 ships for transporting low-volume high-value cargo like blueprints or implants i hauled all my salvage in a vigil until i trained into covops ~
Saint VII Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.08.20 15:46:00 - [21] Edited by: Saint VII on 20/08/2009 15:47:17 These threads are fun because you invariably get some answers from folks who have become REALLY attached to unpopular ships. The virtue of EVE as a game is that there is not often a single, correct choice. I believe this is true for our frigates as well. But I would agree with McRoll in a more limited sense: I have a hard time making a case to bring anything but a Rifter for PvP combat. Yes, yes Vigil is a bit faster. But I would argue that the Rifter's superior targetting and survivability make it superior for the role. I still try to fly a Vigil just to be the odd duck, but I've never seen one in PvP besides mine. Slasher really has one use: truly disposable tackler. They are cheap even to a new player. So if you are just learning to tackle, and fitting a Rifter takes more than 5 or 10% of your wealth, just build a slasher instead. Otherwise I never see them used. Probe can be used by people who will be scouting for the fleet. I do see them used. Burst is just fine for starting off your jet-can mining career, obviously never seen one used in PvP. Breacher is a very nice ship for missions because range is king in L1 and L2 missions. Never seen one used in PvP because frankly in a fleet situation DPS from a T1 frigate is negligible, so the idea of a T1 Frigate "missile boat" in PvP is a bit flawed IMO. I'm sure you could get some very small scale fights where you could kite well in a Breacher, tho. No great scoundrel is ever uninteresting.
Dodgy Past Amarr Lollipops for Rancors	Posted - 2009.08.20 17:09:00 - [22] I haven't been in a Punisher in a month or two, but I use Executioners and Magnates every day. Infact I also have used probes quite a bit when borrowing someone else's ship from a POS for scanning work and possibly I should consider swapping my taxi from an Executioner to a Vigil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Drahomi'r Bozi'dar	Posted - 2009.08.20 19:50:00 - [23] Can we put the Hawk in this section, since there are t1 frigs that laugh at its damage?? and the vengeance too
Yuki Hayabara	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:40:00 - [24] Players also start with alot more skillpoints nowadays, and isk is easier to get. Back in the days you started with just over 100K points, with your racial frigate skill at max lvl3 if I remember correctly, just barely giving you enough to even fly a Rifter. My ship progression back then was much more natural, instead of being able to hop into the top tier frigates right away.
Yalezorn Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.20 21:44:00 - [25] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: McRoll There is the Vigil which is never used because it provides only a target painter bonus, Lost all credibility here. Fastest t1 frigate in game, commonly used s a tackler. It is common to dump them at POS to tackle stuff for POS gunners to kill. Probe is an awesome small cargo ship (1.8 seconds align time well fitted). Slasher and burst not as useful but a great bang for the buck. Breacher make a very good angel ratting ship. Quote: So basically there is a ****load of T1 frigs in game but only 1 or 2 from each race are really used... variety is always good but is there a point in it if only 1 shiptype is used? I think you have amply been proved wrong. Agreed. My minmatar alt is a leadership mule, but I still gave him some light combat training. Slasher was my first combat ship, I still use a Probe for light cargo hauling, and the Vigil has been a wonderful addition to our wormhole op's defenses. I don't think I've EVER heard someone complain about a target painter bonus before.
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2009.08.20 23:42:00 - [26] Minmatar actually have it pretty good for the t1 frigate lineup. The rifter is a good pvp ship for its cost, and the vigil is a good tackler because of its speed bonus. You dont ever fit a tp to it. The breacher sucks compared to the rifter. 4/2/2 against 4/3/3. The slasher is godawful and not particularly faster than the vigil with way fewer slots and grid, and all mining frigates suck. However I find myself using the probe all the time for moving my **** around. I'm flashy red so moving through highsec is a pain. Probe can move a decent ammount of stuff, like say all the fittings for a new ship. If you buffer it against smartbomb camps you'll almosty never die in lowsec. Its fast enough to make be survivable in 0.0. And its just nice for moving your stuff around quickly. Thats 2 useful pvp frigates and one useful logistics ship. Galente have the incursus and the tristan. Both meh. Incursus makes an ok ranis stand in. Caldari had the kestrel, which has fallen out of favor since the missile nerf, and the merlin. With its resist bonus and a MSE the merlin is an ok tackler just because of its durability and lack of armor plates slowing it down. But its dps sucks from split weapon system and stupid range bonus. All the ammar have is the punisher. And the relatively slow punisher isn't particularly helpful in fleets unless everyone else is flying t1 frigate crap. So in short minmatar win EvE when it comes to t1 frigates for all the good it does them. I guess they pay for it with the scythe. The crappiest of the crappy industrial cruisers.
Amitious Turkey Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.08.21 00:02:00 - [27] To OP: because they USED to have a use They still do now, but their role is more reduced. When the game first came out, most people flew frigs...so they needed the variety. Though there weren't target painters then, either. I dunno what the Vigil was used for BECAUSE OF FALCONDUST! Originally by: CCP Navigator We love you all as well <3 GO NAVIGATOR <3
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.21 00:06:00 - [28] The Probe is a gold nugged for so many aspects. I can carry almost 624m3 of stuff thru the most hostile low sec camps with it, or nano it and carry hundreds of millions in courier missions thru Uedama & Sivala while enjoying the 4.5AU quick warp speed. Can probe and do WHs and 1000 other things. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2009.08.21 03:31:00 - [29] I had a nice thread going about the Breacher just recently. After a few decent commennts we came up with the fact that the Breacher is actually a fine little ship. I will remind you that the Breacher with just T1 ammo and no range mods, can hit out to 40Km. Its also quite fast.
Shining Tears Caldari The DARLEXS	Posted - 2009.08.21 03:32:00 - [30] PUNISHER FOREVER!

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