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voidvim
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Posted - 2004.09.11 15:43:00 -
[1]
I have a few questions about cap recharge rates
Now I know that low your cap is the faster it recharges but...
If the cap recharge was on a garph would it be a bell curve or a diaganil line ?, I can get my cap steady about half full but never 1/3 or 1/4 full.
If I raise or lower my max cap what happen to the recharge rate ?
items that lower lower max cap that give 20% more cap. does it really give as you have less cap so the natrual recharge could be less ?
Has any body try raising a ships natrual shield recharge rate for cap free shield tanking ?
thanks in advace
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voidvim
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Posted - 2004.09.11 15:43:00 -
[2]
I have a few questions about cap recharge rates
Now I know that low your cap is the faster it recharges but...
If the cap recharge was on a garph would it be a bell curve or a diaganil line ?, I can get my cap steady about half full but never 1/3 or 1/4 full.
If I raise or lower my max cap what happen to the recharge rate ?
items that lower lower max cap that give 20% more cap. does it really give as you have less cap so the natrual recharge could be less ?
Has any body try raising a ships natrual shield recharge rate for cap free shield tanking ?
thanks in advace
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.09.11 16:47:00 -
[3]
This is my best bet but the only way to be sure is to ask the devs.
The top curve cap vs time and the lower cap recharge vs. time
__________
Capacitor research |
Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.09.11 16:47:00 -
[4]
This is my best bet but the only way to be sure is to ask the devs.
The top curve cap vs time and the lower cap recharge vs. time
__________
Capacitor research |
voidvim
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Posted - 2004.09.11 17:00:00 -
[5]
Edited by: voidvim on 11/09/2004 17:22:04
that sort of help thank, so cap recharge is a diagiaonal
does any body else know the answer to my questions
what is the differnce between cap vs time and cap recharge vs. time ?
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voidvim
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Posted - 2004.09.11 17:00:00 -
[6]
Edited by: voidvim on 11/09/2004 17:22:04
that sort of help thank, so cap recharge is a diagiaonal
does any body else know the answer to my questions
what is the differnce between cap vs time and cap recharge vs. time ?
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Salek
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Posted - 2004.09.12 12:36:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Salek on 12/09/2004 12:38:24
I was reading a similar topic to this over on the eve-i forums a while ago. the conclusion of that thread was that the following equation provides a very close model to the way the capacitor, and shields, act in eve:-
max recharge = (mc * 0.63) / (ct / 5)
where mc = max capacitor
ct = capactior recharge time
I have thouroughly tested this out, and in every scenario this equation has worked for me, with the capacitor getting its maximum amount of recharge rate when it is about 20% full
hope this helps.
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Salek
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Posted - 2004.09.12 12:36:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Salek on 12/09/2004 12:38:24
I was reading a similar topic to this over on the eve-i forums a while ago. the conclusion of that thread was that the following equation provides a very close model to the way the capacitor, and shields, act in eve:-
max recharge = (mc * 0.63) / (ct / 5)
where mc = max capacitor
ct = capactior recharge time
I have thouroughly tested this out, and in every scenario this equation has worked for me, with the capacitor getting its maximum amount of recharge rate when it is about 20% full
hope this helps.
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voidvim
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Posted - 2004.09.12 13:02:00 -
[9]
so with if I use this furmla
max recharge = (mc * 0.63) / (ct / 5)
and my mc = 150
and my ct = 70
my max recharge = 6.75
if in increase my mc or decease my ct my 'max recharge' goes up !
so fitting a cap expander will give me better cap recharge ?
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voidvim
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Posted - 2004.09.12 13:02:00 -
[10]
so with if I use this furmla
max recharge = (mc * 0.63) / (ct / 5)
and my mc = 150
and my ct = 70
my max recharge = 6.75
if in increase my mc or decease my ct my 'max recharge' goes up !
so fitting a cap expander will give me better cap recharge ?
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Lilpuss
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Posted - 2004.09.12 14:10:00 -
[11]
 Originally by: voidvim
so fitting a cap expander will give me better cap recharge ?
yes. the recharge time will stay the same but the recharge rate will be greater since you've got more cap. |
Lilpuss
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Posted - 2004.09.12 14:10:00 -
[12]
Originally by: voidvim
so fitting a cap expander will give me better cap recharge ?
yes. the recharge time will stay the same but the recharge rate will be greater since you've got more cap. |
voidvim
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Posted - 2004.09.12 14:32:00 -
[13]
so wmd's (micro warp drives) when they lower your cap 25% they also lower car recharge as well ?
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voidvim
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Posted - 2004.09.12 14:32:00 -
[14]
so wmd's (micro warp drives) when they lower your cap 25% they also lower car recharge as well ?
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Salek
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Posted - 2004.09.12 15:28:00 -
[15]
Yes, as your total capacitor is lower, but the time stays the same, the recharge RATE is lowered
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Salek
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Posted - 2004.09.12 15:28:00 -
[16]
Yes, as your total capacitor is lower, but the time stays the same, the recharge RATE is lowered
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voidvim
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Posted - 2004.09.12 15:36:00 -
[17]
their a lower slot item that lower max cap by 10% but raise cap recharge by 20%. is any good for any thing buy recycling >
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voidvim
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Posted - 2004.09.12 15:36:00 -
[18]
their a lower slot item that lower max cap by 10% but raise cap recharge by 20%. is any good for any thing buy recycling >
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.12 15:49:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Pottsey on 12/09/2004 15:51:04
1 flux device might lower you shield cap but it will improve your shield points per second over not using 1 device. Only when you use 3+ flux deviceĘs does the shield points per second drop over using no deviceĘs.
As the shields are none linear using a flux device might be useful as the lower your shields get the faster they charge up.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=108489
Above I posted how long it took my shields to stabilised. IE the recharge rate matched the damage I was taking.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.12 15:49:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Pottsey on 12/09/2004 15:51:04
1 flux device might lower you shield cap but it will improve your shield points per second over not using 1 device. Only when you use 3+ flux deviceĘs does the shield points per second drop over using no deviceĘs.
As the shields are none linear using a flux device might be useful as the lower your shields get the faster they charge up.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=108489
Above I posted how long it took my shields to stabilised. IE the recharge rate matched the damage I was taking.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
voidvim
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Posted - 2004.09.12 16:15:00 -
[21]
thanks for the link
I think their two kinds of tanking one is 'passive' tanking where you last long to finish the fight before you cap runs dry, large amounts of shield HP and exteners also passive recharge are useful. Then theirs is 'active' tanking where boost your shields (or armour reapir) with cap so that they never run out or your enemy can do enough damage to ever. With this form of tanking how much cap you have left does not matter it the recharge rate that counts. As your ship recharges best at 20% full cap it seem to be want to keep it.
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voidvim
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Posted - 2004.09.12 16:15:00 -
[22]
thanks for the link
I think their two kinds of tanking one is 'passive' tanking where you last long to finish the fight before you cap runs dry, large amounts of shield HP and exteners also passive recharge are useful. Then theirs is 'active' tanking where boost your shields (or armour reapir) with cap so that they never run out or your enemy can do enough damage to ever. With this form of tanking how much cap you have left does not matter it the recharge rate that counts. As your ship recharges best at 20% full cap it seem to be want to keep it.
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voidvim
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Posted - 2004.09.12 16:16:00 -
[23]
Edited by: voidvim on 12/09/2004 16:18:22
would passive tanking be good for a Amarr ship so all the cap could be give to lasers or minmatar so the cap could be used for More speeed ?
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voidvim
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Posted - 2004.09.12 16:16:00 -
[24]
Edited by: voidvim on 12/09/2004 16:18:22
would passive tanking be good for a Amarr ship so all the cap could be give to lasers or minmatar so the cap could be used for More speeed ?
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.12 18:15:00 -
[25]
The problem with passive tanking is its very hard to workout how useful it is. For example I might have 1000 hidpoint shields and a 100 second recharge. Most people would assume thatĘs 10 shield points a second but its not. ItĘs more like 20hit points per second when low and 5 hit points per second when near max. Now the numbers ratio might not be correct but the idea is. Now what if the booster is only 20points? WhatĘs better active or passive?
Boosters are the other hand are always the same no matter if your shields are low or high. What we need to do is find out the precise ratio of shield recharge rate. Some say itĘs fastest at 20% some at 40%. Once we done that we should be able to work out the passive hit points per second.
I have a feeling that passive recharge is better or almost as good as boosters when your shields are low. It would be interesting to find out how many hit points per second you get with low shields on a pure passive setup.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.12 18:15:00 -
[26]
The problem with passive tanking is its very hard to workout how useful it is. For example I might have 1000 hidpoint shields and a 100 second recharge. Most people would assume thatĘs 10 shield points a second but its not. ItĘs more like 20hit points per second when low and 5 hit points per second when near max. Now the numbers ratio might not be correct but the idea is. Now what if the booster is only 20points? WhatĘs better active or passive?
Boosters are the other hand are always the same no matter if your shields are low or high. What we need to do is find out the precise ratio of shield recharge rate. Some say itĘs fastest at 20% some at 40%. Once we done that we should be able to work out the passive hit points per second.
I have a feeling that passive recharge is better or almost as good as boosters when your shields are low. It would be interesting to find out how many hit points per second you get with low shields on a pure passive setup.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Charles Burger
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Posted - 2004.09.13 14:48:00 -
[27]
This is something I have wondered for a while but never got round to trying in practice. But the theory doesn't look good. The potential mods for passive shield tanking are:
Shield Flux Coil II: recharge +30%, shield size -15%
Shield Power Relay II: recharge +27.5%, cap recharge -35%
Shield Recharger II: recharge +15%
These mods are quite considerably worse than their equivalent cap mods so lets have a look if the benefits of passive tanking outweighs this.
Forget flux coils - the size reduction also reduces recharge rate, so the benefit is minimal. Forget the power relay, you still need cap for other things like shooting and EW and warping (imagine trying to do 8 jumps with no cap recharge...) and -35% hit is ridiculous. Well that leaves the 15% recharger. But the ship's natural shield recharge rate is less than half that of its cap. For example (unskilled) Scorpion has the same cap and shield size 4250, but cap recharge is 923s and shield recharge is 2000s. Since cap can be "converted" into shield using shield boosters, at a better than 1:1 ratio using named/tech2 boosters or a boost amp, you're better off going for a good cap recharge with shield boosters. 7x cap recharger II and one XL C5-L would easily be better than 8x shield recharger II.
Of course the obvious "balance" would be if shield power relays nerfed cap boosters, not cap recharge. Bring them into line with cap power relays, which nerf shield boosters not shield recharge!!!
Does anyone actually use any of these shield recharge mods at the moment??!?!
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Charles Burger
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Posted - 2004.09.13 14:48:00 -
[28]
This is something I have wondered for a while but never got round to trying in practice. But the theory doesn't look good. The potential mods for passive shield tanking are:
Shield Flux Coil II: recharge +30%, shield size -15%
Shield Power Relay II: recharge +27.5%, cap recharge -35%
Shield Recharger II: recharge +15%
These mods are quite considerably worse than their equivalent cap mods so lets have a look if the benefits of passive tanking outweighs this.
Forget flux coils - the size reduction also reduces recharge rate, so the benefit is minimal. Forget the power relay, you still need cap for other things like shooting and EW and warping (imagine trying to do 8 jumps with no cap recharge...) and -35% hit is ridiculous. Well that leaves the 15% recharger. But the ship's natural shield recharge rate is less than half that of its cap. For example (unskilled) Scorpion has the same cap and shield size 4250, but cap recharge is 923s and shield recharge is 2000s. Since cap can be "converted" into shield using shield boosters, at a better than 1:1 ratio using named/tech2 boosters or a boost amp, you're better off going for a good cap recharge with shield boosters. 7x cap recharger II and one XL C5-L would easily be better than 8x shield recharger II.
Of course the obvious "balance" would be if shield power relays nerfed cap boosters, not cap recharge. Bring them into line with cap power relays, which nerf shield boosters not shield recharge!!!
Does anyone actually use any of these shield recharge mods at the moment??!?!
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Raynaar
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Posted - 2004.09.14 19:06:00 -
[29]
Dustpuppy, you are prolly way closer to actual on your graphs than you realize. I've run extensive module testing for my armor tanking setups to make certain I can run 2 large armor repairers indefinately along with other modules and weps. The rule of thumb that I've developed for my testing is equip, find a roid, turn everything on and leave it on (including weps) for at least 10 or 15 minutes. If my cap doesn't drop below 35%, I consider it a viable setup. (I prefer a little more margin over this though to account for possible nos). I've found that if my cap seems to stabilize over time to around 30-35%, but then something like a nos pushes it under 30%, it will not come back up at all (even after nos is disabled), and will go to 0% unless I turn something off. Your second graph in particular mirrors my testing almost identically. Nice work! 
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Raynaar
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Posted - 2004.09.14 19:06:00 -
[30]
Dustpuppy, you are prolly way closer to actual on your graphs than you realize. I've run extensive module testing for my armor tanking setups to make certain I can run 2 large armor repairers indefinately along with other modules and weps. The rule of thumb that I've developed for my testing is equip, find a roid, turn everything on and leave it on (including weps) for at least 10 or 15 minutes. If my cap doesn't drop below 35%, I consider it a viable setup. (I prefer a little more margin over this though to account for possible nos). I've found that if my cap seems to stabilize over time to around 30-35%, but then something like a nos pushes it under 30%, it will not come back up at all (even after nos is disabled), and will go to 0% unless I turn something off. Your second graph in particular mirrors my testing almost identically. Nice work!
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.09.14 19:41:00 -
[31]
Actually this is not just a random guess. I actually took some measurements (not enough I admit) and tried fitting some curves with it. The one that fitted the best is
C = C_0(1-1/cosh(tau*t))
Basically the thought was that the recharge was not quite exponential (the curve you get very familiar with in basic circuit analisys course) but close though.
__________
Capacitor research |
Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.09.14 19:41:00 -
[32]
Actually this is not just a random guess. I actually took some measurements (not enough I admit) and tried fitting some curves with it. The one that fitted the best is
C = C_0(1-1/cosh(tau*t))
Basically the thought was that the recharge was not quite exponential (the curve you get very familiar with in basic circuit analisys course) but close though.
__________
Capacitor research |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.14 20:13:00 -
[33]
"Does anyone actually use any of these shield recharge mods at the moment??!?!"
I do and I love haveing a 39second recharge. It works well as the lower the sheilds get the faster they charge up makeing them hard to compare to boosters. Just training up Battleship skills now for more testing.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.14 20:13:00 -
[34]
"Does anyone actually use any of these shield recharge mods at the moment??!?!"
I do and I love haveing a 39second recharge. It works well as the lower the sheilds get the faster they charge up makeing them hard to compare to boosters. Just training up Battleship skills now for more testing.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Charles Burger
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Posted - 2004.09.15 13:23:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Pottsey
I do and I love haveing a 39second recharge.
Congratulations, your hard facts defy my theory!!!
Would be interested to know your ship type and setup 
CB.
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Charles Burger
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Posted - 2004.09.15 13:23:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Pottsey
I do and I love haveing a 39second recharge.
Congratulations, your hard facts defy my theory!!!
Would be interested to know your ship type and setup
CB.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.15 15:46:00 -
[37]
Not in the mood to cut and paste or type it up again so read http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=108489
I still need to get my hands on a shield relay and flux T2 modules which should speed the charge rate up even more. Hopefully BS skill should be trained up by the end of the week so I can do some testing with those.
If there is any testing you want me to do send me a eve mail or leave a message here.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.15 15:46:00 -
[38]
Not in the mood to cut and paste or type it up again so read http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=108489
I still need to get my hands on a shield relay and flux T2 modules which should speed the charge rate up even more. Hopefully BS skill should be trained up by the end of the week so I can do some testing with those.
If there is any testing you want me to do send me a eve mail or leave a message here.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Charles Burger
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Posted - 2004.09.15 16:06:00 -
[39]
Ah, I'm talking about tanking a BS spawn or PvP, rather than indy self-defense...
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Charles Burger
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Posted - 2004.09.15 16:06:00 -
[40]
Ah, I'm talking about tanking a BS spawn or PvP, rather than indy self-defense...
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.15 17:06:00 -
[41]
Give me a week or two to do this skill training and I hope to fit a BS for combat with shield recharger's.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.15 17:06:00 -
[42]
Give me a week or two to do this skill training and I hope to fit a BS for combat with shield recharger's.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Charles Burger
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Posted - 2004.09.17 13:04:00 -
[43]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=109867
PDU II's look good for BS passive shield recharging. A whole bunch of these would give you insane cap as well! Must get round to trying it one day...
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Charles Burger
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Posted - 2004.09.17 13:04:00 -
[44]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=109867
PDU II's look good for BS passive shield recharging. A whole bunch of these would give you insane cap as well! Must get round to trying it one day...
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.17 13:37:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Pottsey on 17/09/2004 13:45:26
It all depends on whatĘs better having a fast recharge or slower recharge but more shield points per second. At the momenet I am finding it hard to work out which is better.
Going try to get my hands on some tonight. PDU II's should be better then Power Relays IĘs but I think Power Relays IIĘs would work better. Shame they are not on the market yet. Lets hope for the 28th.
Thanks for the info didnĘt realise how good PDU II are.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.17 13:37:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Pottsey on 17/09/2004 13:45:26
It all depends on whatĘs better having a fast recharge or slower recharge but more shield points per second. At the momenet I am finding it hard to work out which is better.
Going try to get my hands on some tonight. PDU II's should be better then Power Relays IĘs but I think Power Relays IIĘs would work better. Shame they are not on the market yet. Lets hope for the 28th.
Thanks for the info didnĘt realise how good PDU II are.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.17 14:02:00 -
[47]
Taking a 2nd look I am not so sure now. Its two PDU II = +17.7% charge boost and 10% hitpoint boost while two Relays would be 40% charge boost more if Tech II. I guess I still need to buy some for testing.
PDU IĘs against Relays IĘs and I found I was better off with the Relays. Though I didnĘt test with Rechargers IIĘs in the mid slot. Going do that tonight.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.17 14:02:00 -
[48]
Taking a 2nd look I am not so sure now. Its two PDU II = +17.7% charge boost and 10% hitpoint boost while two Relays would be 40% charge boost more if Tech II. I guess I still need to buy some for testing.
PDU IĘs against Relays IĘs and I found I was better off with the Relays. Though I didnĘt test with Rechargers IIĘs in the mid slot. Going do that tonight.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.17 17:08:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Pottsey on 17/09/2004 18:18:15
The best I could get with PDU IIĘs was 10.9 shields points per second. On a hauler not a battleship as thatĘs still training. Not very good I can hit over 16 with passive recharge and no PDUĘs.
Wait a min I now have more Power grid and can fit a 2nd mid shield extender that boosts me up to 15.4
If I take 1 PDU out and stick in a Relay thatĘs 16.7
I wonder what would happen if I used 2 reactors IIĘs and fit relays mixed with shield extenders.
EDIT:
Will I finished testing and from a shields points per second point of view I found the best combination on my ship was only 3 PDUĘs IIĘs mixed with shield recharges IIĘs and shield extenders IIĘs. ThatĘs in a Mark5 hauler. The other low slots where relays IĘs. That got me over 18 points per second.
Pure PDUĘs gave almost half the points per second at around 10.
The questions is still whatĘs better faster recharge or more points pre second. As the shields are none linear I have no idea. What we need to know is what point do shields recharge at there fastest and how many points per second does the fast charge and the high cap get at the point.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2004.09.17 17:08:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Pottsey on 17/09/2004 18:18:15
The best I could get with PDU IIĘs was 10.9 shields points per second. On a hauler not a battleship as thatĘs still training. Not very good I can hit over 16 with passive recharge and no PDUĘs.
Wait a min I now have more Power grid and can fit a 2nd mid shield extender that boosts me up to 15.4
If I take 1 PDU out and stick in a Relay thatĘs 16.7
I wonder what would happen if I used 2 reactors IIĘs and fit relays mixed with shield extenders.
EDIT:
Will I finished testing and from a shields points per second point of view I found the best combination on my ship was only 3 PDUĘs IIĘs mixed with shield recharges IIĘs and shield extenders IIĘs. ThatĘs in a Mark5 hauler. The other low slots where relays IĘs. That got me over 18 points per second.
Pure PDUĘs gave almost half the points per second at around 10.
The questions is still whatĘs better faster recharge or more points pre second. As the shields are none linear I have no idea. What we need to know is what point do shields recharge at there fastest and how many points per second does the fast charge and the high cap get at the point.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
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