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Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2012.05.13 20:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
Reading General Discussion is giving the feeling everyone is trying to railroad new players into Low- and Nullsec these days.
As a Highsec player I'm too inexperienced in the ways Low- and Nullsec work, but is there some deeper reasoning behind this than "play the game the way it's meant to be" or "you cannot play different to me/us"?
I mean, Highsec, Lowsec and Nullsec are gathering to three different playstyles within the EVE universe. None of these niches is fundamentaly threatening the other niches playstyle. Do they?
It's a bit problematic to sift through the arguments. One day Highsec is painted as getting to many rewards, the next players are lured with the immense riches of Nullsec - this gives an incoherent picture.
Or is there actually a shortage off players in Low and Null? Do Lowsec players have problems finding opponents? Do alliances have problems to fill their rosters? Do too many players "get stuck" in High? |
JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
131
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Posted - 2012.05.13 20:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
Romar Agent wrote: As a Highsec player I'm too inexperienced in the ways Low- and Nullsec work, but is there some deeper reasoning behind this than "play the game the way it's meant to be" or "you cannot play different to me/us"?
Troll spotted ... or you dont understand concept of one perpetual and meaningful universe based on dynamic equilibrium |
Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
1
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Posted - 2012.05.13 20:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Romar Agent wrote: Do too many players "get stuck" in High?
In my short time in game I've met half a dozen players with 2+ years in game and stacks of 'elite' certificates say they are 'not ready yet' for low/null and need 'one more cert' to be 'ready'.
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Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2012.05.13 20:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:Troll spotted ... or you dont understand concept of one perpetual and meaningful universe based on dynamic equilibrium I had to google that, but if it means anything else than that everything in EVE is interconnected, please, explain it to me.
Of course I know that all of EVE is connected.
But from a gameplay perspective people are having different goals and different levels of dedication. As far as I can see, the different levels of security space are catering to all players just fine.
Maybe? Or not? |
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
440
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Posted - 2012.05.13 20:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
JitaPricer is correct. It is literally impossible for there to be too many or too few people in any region of EVE. Just like it is impossible for there to be too high a PLEX price to crash the market. In the freedom of EVE everything is self correcting.
If nulsec has the use for thousands of people, there will be people who go there. If it does not, they will not. If PLEX prices get too high for people to buy them, the prices will need to be lowered until people buy them again.
Basically, if there was a high demand for nulsec players, it would be filled. Ferox #1 |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
443
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Posted - 2012.05.13 20:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Romar Agent wrote: Do too many players "get stuck" in High? Every game benefits from players progressing from the n00b area. EVE is no different. In fact, it is even more important in EVE because of the persistent world and player driven economy that forms the backbone of EVE. Without gathering, manufacturing AND destruction the economy will collapse. Highsec brings too much of the former and way too little of the latter. That is why we really need Hulkageddon. |
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2012.05.13 20:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kietay Ayari wrote:JitaPricer is correct. It is literally impossible for there to be too many or too few people in any region of EVE. Just like it is impossible for there to be too high a PLEX price to crash the market. In the freedom of EVE everything is self correcting.
If nulsec has the use for thousands of people, there will be people who go there. If it does not, they will not. If PLEX prices get too high for people to buy them, the prices will need to be lowered until people buy them again.
Basically, if there was a high demand for nulsec players, it would be filled. So it means the game is self-regulating in itself, okay. And because the game is driven by player actions, every player action is part of the self-regulating process?
Makes more sense than I would have given that sentence before. |
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2012.05.13 20:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
(buttons...) |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
161
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Posted - 2012.05.13 20:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Like any question in EVE there isn't a straight forward answer. There are some truths that can kind of answer this and one of those truths is that most people have been to null sec. Some stayed for a while, some left in short order but all found that it suffers in one respect. There are no short term goals in null sec. PvP is stupid to the extreme and serves no benefit in the short term, setting anything up is a logistical nightmare that will take months to see any kind of results, good or bad.
Two years ago the North was a huge NAP train. Under the umbrella of a group called Northern Coalition. A year ago it fell, there were no epic space battles, there were no great wars. There was Evac and months of structure bashing. Today the North is what it was 2 years ago. A huge NAP train. The same scenario has played out hundreds of times in Null sec, the exact same process, the exact same result.
It's old.
People stay in High Sec for the same reason people stay in WoW after a decade. They like the game, they want to be here but they really don't know why anymore. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg-_HeVNYOk
Save Derpy! |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
527
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Posted - 2012.05.13 21:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
It doesn't matter what type of space people are in so long as they are blowing eachother up.
When they aren't blowing eachother up then there is a problem. |
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D3F4ULT
69
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Posted - 2012.05.13 21:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
The game is working as intended. It's the players that are broken. Creator of CCP ZULU - Incarna : Pants Online ( http://youtu.be/AObrlCf3Dcs ) |
Selinate
864
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Posted - 2012.05.13 22:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
null and low are fine population-wise, I don't get why people whine about it so much... |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
942
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Posted - 2012.05.13 22:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
Yes. Yes. No. No. Yes. Yes. |
D3F4ULT
70
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Posted - 2012.05.13 22:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
D3F4ULT wrote:The game is working as intended. It's the players that are broken.
To elaborate;
Players believe that the world under 0.5 is a mean and ugly universe. Almost like that scene in the Lion King, "You must never go to the shadow place." Hearing about 500-2,000 player fleet battles, gate camps, dreaded warp disruption bubbles; they all make high sec players cringe at the idea of 'extra effort' of flying.
Then you have the arguments of that null is safer than high sec. Safety in this game is an illusion, no one is safe anywhere. You're as safe as prepared you are. That's where the multiplayer aspect comes into play, you forge alliances with other players and you can create an offense that turns out to be your best defense ie: goonswarm. By smacking others around they begin to fear you and not want to deal with you.
Again; its the players that are broken, not the game. Creator of CCP ZULU - Incarna : Pants Online ( http://youtu.be/AObrlCf3Dcs ) |
Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
426
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Posted - 2012.05.13 22:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
Dear OP,
Once upon a time there was a big, bad alliance named Band of Brothers, now affectionately known as BoB. Well, it seems BoB occupied easily two-thirds of the entire 0.0 space. This of course squeezed the rest of the null sec players into a rather small space where they became accustomed to seeing lots of each other, giving them a false sense of population density.
Well, one day it came to pass a not too intelligent "person" discovered BoB was actually a paper tiger, and couldn't possibly hold all the space the star map insisted BoB owned. Almost overnight BoB folded like a cheap suit and open null sec tripled in size just as fast. Suddenly, all the null-seccers rushed to fill this open space, the net result of which was they became spread rather thinly.
The incidental result of that became, "Hey, there's not much happening out here!" So, there they sat in empty space in their fabulously expensive ships doing essentially nothing but drinking beer and staring at the screen, so they began to attempt something they weren't very good at...they began to THINK.
Naturally, what they thought was, "How can we get more people out here so I can blow them up with my fabulous ship, rob them and thus get my adrenalin rush for time spent in EVE?" Since the beer-sodden thinkers tend to also think what they dream up is nothing short of brilliant, they came RUSHING to the FORUM to tell the world, and especially CCP, "Hey...null sec is THE game! Yeah. That's the ticket. AND, the PURPOSE of EVE is force people INTO null sec. In fact....anyone who doesn't want to come out to null sec so I can gank them is a CAREBEAR. Yeah...that's the ticket."
Unfortunately, the CCP crowd seems to be (by their own admissions) as beer soaked as these brilliant thinkers, and this null sec problem suddenly became...a PROBLEM! Talk began to run high about FORCING high sec players into null sec..and..how high sec is really a beginner's area..and...how people that play high sec are really RUINING THE GAME!!!
Well, as this progressed it began to dawn on low sec players what was going on and not to be left out THEY started up with the same THING! "What EVE needs is high sec players playing in LOW sec! Yeah...that's the ticket...the REAL game is in LOW sec...yeah...(and I'm marrying Morgan Fairchild....yeah...")
So, as you can see it's wholly invented by people with agendas lying their butts off about the nature of the game to force action to force people to become their victims in the place they want to play. (Whether game management had a hard time following all this *hic*, or they're in on it too is hard to determine as they are as honest as the day is long...and the check is in the mail.)
One of the amazing by-products of this is the sudden proliferation of experts who magically appeared on the forum. An unintended consequence is the usual good posters with something of value to say realized the futility of posting in this flood of BS and have long since left. What remains is a very boring forum.
Sincerely yours,
Vyl Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
942
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 22:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
damn u beer, u've ruined eve-online |
Sycho Pathic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
49
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Posted - 2012.05.13 22:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:Romar Agent wrote: Do too many players "get stuck" in High? In my short time in game I've met half a dozen players with 2+ years in game and stacks of 'elite' certificates say they are 'not ready yet' for low/null and need 'one more cert' to be 'ready'.
You could substitute 'interested' for 'ready' in a lot of cases. |
Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
426
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 22:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:damn u beer, u've ruined eve-online It would save us a lot of time and trouble if they'd just sticky that story:
"Before suggesting how to improve high/low/null sec, read this first."
Seems I have to remind, or inform, the community of this once a month. Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
157
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 23:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Economy stagnating, not enough ships blown up etc etc..
People seems to think its miners and industrialists that are essential to the eve economy, and while true they are in no short supply its the people blowing and getting blown up that are. |
Arsedestroyer
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 23:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
D3F4ULT wrote:its the players that are broken, not the game.
As one of the players you'd probably call broken, I have to disagree.
I lived in null/low for quite some time and actually, I'd like to live there again. however Null and lowsec are so terribly broken compared to highsec I'm idling in Highsec until CCP finally decide to fix it.
I can AFK earn billions of isk in high, browsing the web and watching TV at the same time.
No interest in hitting directional every few seconds and warping to celestials before jumping all the time for having some fail-alliances demanding my full API and a sperm-sample + requiring me to be be on Mumble whenever I'm on for a measly 10% in additional ratting income whilst they want me to join either pointless roams or boring blobs. |
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D3F4ULT
71
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Posted - 2012.05.13 23:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
Arsedestroyer wrote:D3F4ULT wrote:its the players that are broken, not the game. No interest in hitting directional every few seconds and warping to celestials before jumping all the time for having some fail-alliances demanding my full API and a sperm-sample + requiring me to be be on Mumble whenever I'm on for a measly 10% in additional ratting income whilst they want me to join either pointless roams or boring blobs.
Thank you for proving my point.
All those are player related issues. I'm sorry that you have to operate that way, but I do not. I afk just as much as I do in high sec and mine, rat, all day. Alliance buys back my minerals at jita prices.
I'm living the life of High Sec players but making tenfold what they do. So once again, it's the players that are broken. Creator of CCP ZULU - Incarna : Pants Online ( http://youtu.be/AObrlCf3Dcs ) |
Tao Zazen
Virtual Space Monkeys Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 04:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:Romar Agent wrote: As a Highsec player I'm too inexperienced in the ways Low- and Nullsec work, but is there some deeper reasoning behind this than "play the game the way it's meant to be" or "you cannot play different to me/us"?
Troll spotted ... or you dont understand concept of one perpetual and meaningful universe based on dynamic equilibrium
Perpetual? Perhaps -- if you mean balanced in such a way as to be sustainable as an on-line game. Meaningful? Hmm. There is nothing fundamentally "meaningful" in gaming. It's just entertainment.
My view is that if CCP's market research indicates that EVE online would do better financially in the long run as a more PvP -focused game, then that is certainly the direction they should go.
It's a fair point to argue that the game should not be "nerfed" to accommodate those who prefer a less intense experience. However, at the end of the day CCP is running a business, and a large number of paying subscribers are, in fact, care bears.
It's a risky bet to assume that the adrenaline junkies who prefer PvP are also the same folks who are going to keep supporting the business model, but CCP does seem to be inching in the direction of promoting more null-sec play.
One of the more interesting questions at the heart of the game is that of the role of law. Some folks, like the goons, seem to be arguing for anarchy -- which effectively means rule by force and strength alone. The strong survive and the weak get their asses kicked. Dog-eat-dog. Street gang rules, etc.
This translates as perpetual gang warfare -- until one gang eventually ends up taking over everything. No more dynamic equilibrium -- just absolute rule by absolute force. Anarchy is just another transitional state leading eventually to complete despotism.
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Malak Dawnfire
27th Gallentean Fleet
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 04:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
Maybe if gate camps were removed from the low to high border regions? I've been blown up by a few of them not really angry or anything but attempting to offer a solution.
Maybe if there wasn't such a barrier of death and destruction more people could be lured out there? Not entirely sure though. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
727
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 04:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Romar Agent wrote:.Or is there actually a shortage off players in Low and Null? Do Lowsec players have problems finding opponents? Do alliances have problems to fill their rosters? Do too many players "get stuck" in High? If you ask our enemies, there are way too many (goons) in Null. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Malak Dawnfire
27th Gallentean Fleet
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 04:40:00 -
[25] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Romar Agent wrote:.Or is there actually a shortage off players in Low and Null? Do Lowsec players have problems finding opponents? Do alliances have problems to fill their rosters? Do too many players "get stuck" in High? If you ask our enemies, there are way too many (goons) in Null.
If you ask those same people I'm sure they'll say one Goon is too many. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
698
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 07:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Problem with EVE is that CCP has failed to remove high-level income from the noob starter areas. Missions and Incursions are detached, alien content in the sandbox.
This has lead to an influx of raid & grind -oriented players from simpler MMOs, who speak with terms like "playstyle", "PVE", "opting out of PVP". They are not attracted to EVE because of it's unique, persistent virtual universe, but are only after a space-themed game where they can achieve a naive sense of success by gathering imaginary space kredits, or certificates, the next shiny ship and module.
I understand that these people also bring money for CCP, but aren't exactly the kind of people that I'd love to play with. They are especially bad problem on the forums, where they keep posting stinking whine threads every single day, always the same theme- CHANGE THE RULES BECAUSE I DON'T ACCEPT SANDBOX. In the beginning high security space was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
771
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 07:35:00 -
[27] - Quote
Roime wrote:Problem with EVE is that CCP has failed to remove high-level income from the noob starter areas. Missions and Incursions are detached, alien content in the sandbox.
This has lead to an influx of raid & grind -oriented players from simpler MMOs, who speak with terms like "playstyle", "PVE", "opting out of PVP". They are not attracted to EVE because of it's unique, persistent virtual universe, but are only after a space-themed game where they can achieve a naive sense of success by gathering imaginary space kredits, or certificates, the next shiny ship and module.
I understand that these people also bring money for CCP, but aren't exactly the kind of people that I'd love to play with. They are especially bad problem on the forums, where they keep posting stinking whine threads every single day, always the same theme- CHANGE THE RULES BECAUSE I DON'T ACCEPT SANDBOX.
Your opinion is:
CCP has failed to remove high level income from the noob starter areas and this has lead to an influx of raid & grind oriented players from simpler MMOs.
CCP's opinion is:
CCP has succeeded moving from an AA title but bad indie company sized 30k subs to an AAA title with a proper company behind it.
Those who did not, like DFO, stayed 30k indie MMOs that slowly faded into extinction.
So, EvE is not the slaugtherhouse you desire but it will see 2013. Seems a good deal. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
410
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 08:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ioci wrote: Two years ago the North was a huge NAP train. Under the umbrella of a group called Northern Coalition. A year ago it fell, there were no epic space battles, there were no great wars. There was Evac and months of structure bashing. Today the North is what it was 2 years ago. A huge NAP train. The same scenario has played out hundreds of times in Null sec, the exact same process, the exact same result.
It's old.
People stay in High Sec for the same reason people stay in WoW after a decade. They like the game, they want to be here but they really don't know why anymore.
Huge NAP trains are the result of the enormous power-projection capability provided by extremely cheap jump and bridge mechanics. Alliances can NAP all neighbors and their neighbors as well, yet still easily find (by then far weaker in comparison) alliances to curbstomp as a weekend-op without ever having to truly commit (everyone can go back the same night to do some very safe plexing, also for almost no real cost).
Compare the current situation to before when all the jumping and bridging was implemented.
As for people staying in high-sec, it's a simple matter of 'risk&effort vs reward'. Low-sec is only marginally more rewarding then high-sec while being hugely more dangerous and requires more attention and self-substance. Just increase the rewards and don't be afraid to beat individual player income of null.
The point of null is high alliance-level passive income, to be able to pay for stuff like logistics and ship replacements for alliance ops. But null has been cultivated to a point where for an individual player, making money is as risk-free as empire, while being more profitable than maybe high and low-sec combined.
Ofcourse low-sec is left void of meaningful population. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Tao Zazen
Virtual Space Monkeys Inc.
2
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Posted - 2012.05.14 08:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
Roime wrote: Problem with EVE is that CCP has failed to remove high-level income from the noob starter areas. Missions and Incursions are detached, alien content in the sandbox.
This has lead to an influx of raid & grind -oriented players from simpler MMOs, who speak with terms like "playstyle", "PVE", "opting out of PVP". They are not attracted to EVE because of it's unique, persistent virtual universe, but are only after a space-themed game where they can achieve a naive sense of success by gathering imaginary space kredits, or certificates, the next shiny ship and module.
I understand that these people also bring money for CCP, but aren't exactly the kind of people that I'd love to play with. They are especially bad problem on the forums, where they keep posting stinking whine threads every single day, always the same theme- CHANGE THE RULES BECAUSE I DON'T ACCEPT SANDBOX.
As games go, Eve is pretty elegant, but all games are basically entertainment.
Some people (but not all) are entertained by the competitive aspects of PvP. Winning in PvP is clearly the only genuine way to feel successful, however. I bet there is always a really warm glow that comes from ganking some unsuspecting noob who doesn't have 3 years worth of SPs and has no real knowledge of PvP tactics.
There's even more satisfaction that comes from being in a fleet roam flying a corporate-mandated ship with a corporate-mandated fitting and blindly obeying a fleet commander that knows how to use obscenities and insults to best effect.
Now, that's what I call fun gaming !
If you feel that PvP pilots are the only people that you would "love to play with" that's great. Null sec gives you the opportunity to enjoy this aspect of the game in an unrestricted way.
The last time I checked, however, the game design includes multiple career paths -- many of which do not focus on combat.
The persistent virtual universe you love has 6000 systems in it. Why does anyone even care if there are players that don't want to live in null sec or low sec?
If the whining really upsets you, then why bother reading the threads? Why not just play the game the way you want to, and let others do the same?
-TZ
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Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
698
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Posted - 2012.05.14 08:52:00 -
[30] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Your opinion is:
CCP has failed to remove high level income from the noob starter areas and this has lead to an influx of raid & grind oriented players from simpler MMOs.
CCP's opinion is:
CCP has succeeded moving from an AA title but bad indie company sized 30k subs to an AAA title with a proper company behind it.
Those who did not, like DFO, stayed 30k indie MMOs that slowly faded into extinction.
So, EvE is not the slaugtherhouse you desire but it will see 2013. Seems a good deal.
You seem to imply that hisec content is key to growth and success of EVE Online, which is rather debatable. If population in low, null and wh's would not be growing as well, you could have a point, but it does grow.
No idea what you mean with "slaughterhouse". In the beginning high security space was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. |
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