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Yvonne Desire
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Posted - 2009.06.02 17:24:00 -
[1]
I have now been doing this mission with 2 accounts for over an hour.
AFter salvaging and looting the 2 first rooms inn
The Score sansha Nations. There is one single frigate that appears inn the last room and slavages all my wrecks even before i manage to get to wearabouts the wrecks are. He doesent go flashy Red since salvaging is not a Criminal act since it is not Concidered as stealing an object.
What does Stealing mean? To take something from another that is not yours is that not right?
If i had accepted that he could claim my wrecks i would be fine with it. But since this person is Stealing my salvage i have nothing i can retaliate or do withouth getting destroyed by concord.
I really feel that this salavge rule of yours should be changed. It only profits the once who are stealing wrecks inn eve. And if they did go flashy red towards the once owning the wrecks We could hit them and they would even have the oppurtunity to fight back if that is what they really wanted anyway.
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Gin G
Halls Of Valhalla
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Posted - 2009.06.02 17:36:00 -
[2]
Look i/everyone/the devs and there cats are getting real sick of you idiots
1 it isnt your salvage it belong to no one only the loot dose
2 if you dont like it you got two options
suck it up and quit you god damn whining
LEAVE EVE we would be thankful to see you gone so we dont have to put up whith youe whining and you can go spend you money on a game that you can enjoy with no risk that will hold you hand all the way though and make sure nothing bad ever happens EVER
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Clansworth
Farstrider Industries
MARS WARFARE CENTRE
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Posted - 2009.06.02 17:38:00 -
[3]
As stated over and over and over again, your misconception here is in calling the YOUR wrecks. CCP has claimed over and over again that the wreck itself is in the public domain. They are kind enough to protect the traditional loot though.
Intel/Nomad |
Yvonne Desire
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Posted - 2009.06.02 17:38:00 -
[4]
Oy i did not say i dont want any risk. i said i want to be able to shoot at the thief. read my post before you reply.
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Yvonne Desire
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Posted - 2009.06.02 17:40:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Clansworth
As stated over and over and over again, your misconception here is in calling the YOUR wrecks. CCP has claimed over and over again that the wreck itself is in the public domain. They are kind enough to protect the traditional loot though.
well this is the reason why i want to discuss it, since it is wrong to say loot is your but wreck is public? i mean common.
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Gin G
Halls Of Valhalla
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Posted - 2009.06.02 17:48:00 -
[6]
god damn just read up on RL salvage rights and stop crying about it
my first post stands
suck it up or get out
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.06.02 17:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Yvonne Desire
Originally by: Clansworth
As stated over and over and over again, your misconception here is in calling the YOUR wrecks. CCP has claimed over and over again that the wreck itself is in the public domain. They are kind enough to protect the traditional loot though.
well this is the reason why i want to discuss it, since it is wrong to say loot is your but wreck is public? i mean common.
Well I say make the loot public too
Pick Three:
Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success |
Yvonne Desire
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Posted - 2009.06.02 17:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz
Originally by: Yvonne Desire
Originally by: Clansworth
As stated over and over and over again, your misconception here is in calling the YOUR wrecks. CCP has claimed over and over again that the wreck itself is in the public domain. They are kind enough to protect the traditional loot though.
well this is the reason why i want to discuss it, since it is wrong to say loot is your but wreck is public? i mean common.
Well I say make the loot public too
Yeah well that would basically make it more understandable, seperating the two is just messed up imo. But that can have to do with the fact that they dident really have salvage inn the first place inn the game.
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Pesets
The Hunt Club
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Posted - 2009.06.02 17:56:00 -
[9]
Yes, it's public. It's "as designed". http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Wrecks#Wreck_Ownership
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2009.06.02 18:12:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Gin G
Look i/everyone/the devs and there cats are getting real sick of you idiots
1 it isnt your salvage it belong to no one only the loot dose
2 if you dont like it you got two options
suck it up and quit you god damn whining
LEAVE EVE we would be thankful to see you gone so we dont have to put up whith youe whining and you can go spend you money on a game that you can enjoy with no risk that will hold you hand all the way though and make sure nothing bad ever happens EVER
You forgot, missioning in lowsec, then you can shoot them without concord 
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FBI Homelandsecurity
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Posted - 2009.06.02 18:18:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Yvonne Desire
I really feel that this salvage rule of yours should be changed. It only profits the ones who are salvaging wrecks in eve.
Ah sweet sweet care bear tears. I had to change steal to salvaging though as salvaging is not a crime, and it makes the sentence more true.
Originally by: Yvonne Desire
And if they did go flashy red towards the one owning the wrecks We could hit them and they would even have the opportunity to fight back if that is what they really wanted anyway.
If they really want to fight they would just steal the loot too. And many do that. But the funny part is that people ask for us to go flashy red but when we do you generally* tend to hide.
While I can't speak for others I will say that I salvage only because I know it annoys the living hell out of carebears. It makes them send threatening eve mails, it makes them emorage in local, they do funny things like target me or they start blowing up wrecks, and it makes them run to the forums to cry about it. All factors that I get a kick out of.
*Marked for those who have a lack of reading comp skills. Generally does not mean all.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.06.02 19:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Yvonne Desire
What does Stealing mean? To take something from another that is not yours is that not right?
yes, and following this logic you're stealing from the NPC too.
PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD
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dannyBOy16437
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Posted - 2009.06.02 19:16:00 -
[13]
The current system is fine.
The wrecks are not yours. Neither should the loot, but luckily for you and me, it does, as when some MR decides to shoot me in my defenceless dessy, I go and change into my Abaddon and gain another CRN kill 
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Johli
Caldari
AWE Corporation
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.06.02 19:38:00 -
[14]
inb4 the lock
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Dzil
Caldari
Waffles Reloaded
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Posted - 2009.06.02 20:08:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Yvonne Desire
Oy i did not say i dont want any risk. i said i want to be able to shoot at the thief. read my post before you reply.
There's no thief. This would be akin to concord letting you shoot someone because they came to a mission site and started mining.
If you want to be able to shoot people that show up at your mission site, go to low/null sec. Problem solved, pew pew for everyone! You can even shoot any hulks that show up and steal your asteroids.
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In EVE, when someone undercuts you, they're a lemming.
When you undercut someone else, it's skill/effort/manipulation.
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Kel Nissa
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Posted - 2009.06.02 20:56:00 -
[16]
Just some hints:
- Stealing real world "trash" is actually not legal in many countries.
- When you use mining as metapher, keep in mind that taking minerals out of jetcan flags. So just dont use mining - its a bad example to prove your point.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.06.02 21:11:00 -
[17]
because its not your loot inside of NPC wrecks nobody should get flagged for looting NPC wrecks.
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4THELULZ
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Posted - 2009.06.03 00:10:00 -
[18]
Edited by: 4THELULZ on 03/06/2009 00:12:45
Heh, sure, go right ahead and shoot the ninja.
I hope you've got funds for the ransom they'll be charging when they come back with PVP fitted battleships and logistic support.
Edit: dannyBOy16437 provided me with a perfect example right there. Have fun when the likes of him show up.
Hell, if they put this change in, I would be off ganking CNRs. I just love people who think just because their ship is big it's good in pvp.
Seriously why is it that these concepts so hard to understand?
- It's not yours.
- A system like this will mean more dead carebears than "ninjas". Just look at canflipping.
- Following from above, griefers will find ways to abuse any new feature far better than you in your little iskmobile.
- It's not yours.
- It's not yours.
Repeated 3 times for emphasis, but frankly any hope I held that you'd get this into your head was gone several threads and blue posts ago.
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Sedri
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Posted - 2009.07.03 21:34:00 -
[19]
Not that it should be a surprise that no one had a completely constructive replay the Yvonne's post, all I see here is what appears to be children raging against an idea they donÆt like.
Yes I be lave that everyone realizes that salvage dose not belong to anyone, but to me it would be obvious that what she is requesting is that salvage be set like cans and the player who destroys the ship be given ownership.
I can see both the honest pros and cons to this idea.
Pro: There is monetary value involved with what can be gained by wrecks, so the person who killed the ship should get the gain
Con: Not everyone salvages wrecks so the number of wrecks left out all over the busier systems could become overwhelming.
Now IÆm sure that I am going to be flamed several times for this post. So all I ask is please at least give good reasons as ôITS NOT YOURSö dose not seem very constructive to me.
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Lork Niffle
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.03 22:22:00 -
[20]
Read up on actual real life salvage or flotsam i believe the nautical term is used. it actually doesn't belong to anyone. you can in real life actaully go with a torch cutter or pair of claws pick up steel etc from wreckages and use it, or at least something to that idea.
CCP have already given a response where it doesn't belong to you but to the realms of space where the term 'finders keepers, loser weepers' comes into play.
It is actually a constructive response due to it actually being the response to this entire subject that is brought up every day.
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Read my bio ingame for tips on how to live and not be called nasty names by me. |
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Shadi Dee
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Posted - 2009.07.03 22:24:00 -
[21]
salvaging your wreck is fine and i'm not even flashing red... shooting your wreck will spawn concord. how is that?
tbh, i kill it is my wreck, at least in high sec. salvaging my wreck should be same as stealing, you get a warning then i have the right to fire upon you.
and should apply to any kill, piracy/suicide ganking included.
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Fircon
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Posted - 2009.07.03 22:56:00 -
[22]
In some systems i got really hard problems with that. And i am angry about salvaging wrecks by somebody who wasn¦t responsible for the downing. So i wished to shoot at them but i knew- i get shot by concord myself - just wondering how concord can jump into deadspace and we can only by jumpgates. So i suggest that you can shoot at somebody who salvage "your" wrecks when you entered deadspace. No risk - NO FUN 8)
(Or look for other systems....-you don¦t have to quit eve like some players suggested!)
greetx
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ollobrains
THORN Syndicate
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.07.03 23:10:00 -
[23]
If they take loot its aggro
If they salvage join a corp and get someone to salvage for u
Goto 00 and the salvage is much more porfitable
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Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.07.04 00:40:00 -
[24]
1. shoot your wrecks. if you can't have it, neither should they.
2. petition to ccp, the more petitions, the sooner they'll change it.
have a nice day.
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Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
Kuranta
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2009.07.04 01:03:00 -
[25]
They won't change it.
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Corp 1 Allstars
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Posted - 2009.07.04 01:20:00 -
[26]
As I said in a previous whine thread, I wonder what would happen if salvaging DID flag the perp.
The whines 
Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Xindi Kraid
Gene Works
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Posted - 2009.07.04 02:51:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz
Originally by: Yvonne Desire
Originally by: Clansworth
As stated over and over and over again, your misconception here is in calling the YOUR wrecks. CCP has claimed over and over again that the wreck itself is in the public domain. They are kind enough to protect the traditional loot though.
well this is the reason why i want to discuss it, since it is wrong to say loot is your but wreck is public? i mean common.
Well I say make the loot public too
Seconded
-Xindi Kraid: Delivering acerbic wit and scathing comments with just a dash of 'stab you in the eye' |
Nano Plague
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Posted - 2009.09.30 16:38:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Nano Plague on 30/09/2009 16:43:13
I see lots of "get out if you don't like it" "quit eve" etc... and the mention of the Devs would want that as well. Would they? Would they really want to lose revenue because YOU are tired of someone expressing their opinion? I think not. Seems you think very highly of your position within the game - bottom line - you are just another account holder and a source of income for CCP. I don't care if you have been playing since day 1 of the game release - you mean NO more then someone who joined today. Get over yourself.
Have an opinion? Then state it. Yes, this includes stating you are sick of a topic coming up - but not to tell people to quit the game because YOU don't like their opinion.
Simple solution to mission salvage - put a 1 hour timer on the mission wrecks. Within the first hour the "belong" to the person and /or corp that runs the mission - after the 1 hour timer is up - they are fair game. Is this the solution? I have no idea, but it's an option.
YES, I am aware that this is NOT how things are set up now - lots of things in this game change over time. This can too. Maybe this subject keeps coming up because MANY people don't like the rules the way they are now? Simply put this is how people get things changed - by stating opinions and offering options as food for thought.
Signed,
Just another EVE player
p.s. same as you!
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Altie McName
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Posted - 2009.09.30 17:04:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Nano Plague
same old stuff over and over again on how salvage "should be handled"
I refer you to this thread in which many links and quotes, along with arguments, are presented to prove that CCP wants salvage to be this way, along with getting one of the most vocal players alt's on this topic to actually admit, to a degree, this is the mechanic and shows he can't deny it anymore either. You can pick up where he left off if you desire 
Linkage
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AsheraII
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Posted - 2009.09.30 17:05:00 -
[30]
When will people learn to salvage their wrecks as-they-go instead of kill group 1 -> kill group 2 -> kill group 3 -> salvage & loot group 3 -> salvage & loot group 2 -> salvage & loot group 1.
The proper order is:
kill group 1, start salvaging as soon as the first target is down -> finish up salvaging group 1 ->
kill group 2, start salvaging as soon as the first target is down -> finish up salvaging group 2 ->
kill group 3, start salvaging as soon as the first target is down -> finish up salvaging group 3
Funny enough, you'll also save yourself a LOT of time flying around.
Groups are generaly placed a bit apart, meaning you won't agro every one of them. However, if you enter the same space in a lower quality ship, say, a frigate instead of a cruiser, (not uncommon, I've encountered quite some salvagers in something as puny as an Ibis) then there is a rather good chance to agro the next group. This won't give you much trouble, let the NPC's sort out the ninja-salvager, just finish salvaging before you worry about that group.
And for your info, salvaging is NOT considered stealing by anyone except ex-WOW players.
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Pseudo Sasaya
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Posted - 2009.09.30 20:16:00 -
[31]
Originally by: FBI Homelandsecurity
But the funny part is that people ask for us to go flashy red but when we do you generally* tend to hide.
I am guessing that people want to 'fight back' when the ninja salvager is in a frigate or indy and thus seems weak, but they don't want to fight when the person's fleet pops in. People generally want to fight fights they think they can win ^_^
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.09.30 22:56:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Yvonne Desire
What does Stealing mean? To take something from another that is not yours is that not right?
right.
But salvage IS NOT yours by game rules, and it should not be changed. Actually, YOU are the one stealing NPCs stuff. Look the player mechanics, there even the LOOT is owned by the player that was killed, the NPC loot rules should be changed the same way.
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Claire Juilet
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Posted - 2009.10.01 00:16:00 -
[33]
I agree with the orginal poster. I think it is stealing if someone comes in a salvages a wreck I just blew up. Why? Because I did the work to make that wreck and salvage is consider loot IMO since I need it as well to gather resources from for rigs. I think CCP should make the wrecks work like cargo containers otherwise it is hypocracy that one is a criminal offense and the other isn't. Maybe make a timer on the wrecks to go public if not picked up (15 minutes?). Maybe make it so that mission space is protected space from other ships (though I don't think the way the game is setup that it would be feasable). I think the game should still allow you to attempt to but you have to suffer the consequences if you do just like with cargo containers.
To those nah sayers that think it is alright to ninja salvage - you guys are leeches and apparently get off on taking advantage of the situation. Just because the game allows you to do it at the momment, doesn't mean it is right or will always.
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Pan Dora
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.10.01 01:03:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Yvonne Desire
I really feel that this salvage rule of yours should be changed. It only profits the once who are stealing wrecks inn eve.
They changed it, salvage was propriety of the wrecks owner. CCP changed it soon after the implementation. Why? Mission runner not taking the effort to salvage the wrecks.
_
I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game. |
Eagle Hawkstrike
M.I.M.M.S
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Posted - 2009.10.01 05:12:00 -
[35]
CCP won't change this cause people cannot own the wreaks. They let you own the loot from the wreaks but its up to you to be fast enough to salvage the rooms. your lucky they aren't stealing your loot too not to mention the mission objective, really lucky they aren't stealing that.
My position in the corp "Logistics Coordinator" just a fancy name for Janitor. |
Reggie Stoneloader
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.01 05:55:00 -
[36]
The loot and the wreck belong to the pilot, crew, corp and faction of the ship that was destroyed. Stealing the loot is an act of aggression against the owner. Salvaging the scrap is just good housekeeping. The criminal flag from looting is a favor CCP does for carebears, allowing them an opportunity to fight to defend the spoils of their NPC genocide.
When you destroy Guristas ships, you're given a boon by CCP, an irrational possession of the equipment that they buillt and/or paid for, just because you beat them in a fight. It's not even fair that you get that much, but still you whine. Thousands of human corpses float in space, and you cry that the circuitry and alloys drifting among them are not earmarked for your coffers.
You are being paid to eliminate a threat to your employer, to achieve a desirable end. If you get a chance to cannibalize the corpses of the men you kill, then I guess that's good for you, but nobody owes you that chance.
It's like the whiners that think autopilot should warp to 0km just because it's possible to do that manually. Back in the day, people claimed you should be able to warp to 0 because you could set bookmarks to do that very thing. CCP relented, because the workaround actually hurt the server, not because it was just and/or right.
It's CCP's job to make the game as interesting and fair as it can be, and in EvE that requires some people's feelings to get hurt. Congratulations, you're those people.
Crusades: Security Status |
BeanBagKing
Ch3mic4l Warfare
Gypsy Nation
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Posted - 2009.10.01 05:56:00 -
[37]
Not even bother to read replies. Seen this topic a hundred times so you get copy and past reply. Enjoy.
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
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Michal Sedziwoj
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Posted - 2009.10.01 07:25:00 -
[38]
Wrecks are public? This shoot them, do not get agro from the owner, because he's not, just like tracktorbeam ;]
But CCP don't changes it, so discuss is pointless.
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kongking wang
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Posted - 2009.10.01 15:13:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Pesets
Yes, it's public. It's "as designed". http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Wrecks#Wreck_Ownership
i read the page above and noticed that it contradicts itself. one sentence reads:
"A wreck and it's cargo are not owned by the original owner of the ship. They are owned by the player who destroyed the ship"
notice how it says wreck and cargo. not cargo. and at end of that sentence it says "they are owned" not "just the cargo is owned".
this suggests that both parts,cargo and wreck are under the sole ownership of the destroyer.
then thurther through the post it says that the wreck belongs to noone.
now who is to say what is right when ccp cannot get there own facts right
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BeanBagKing
Ch3mic4l Warfare
Gypsy Nation
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Posted - 2009.10.01 15:45:00 -
[40]
Edited by: BeanBagKing on 01/10/2009 15:44:53
Originally by: kongking wang
now who is to say what is right when ccp cannot get there own facts right
I'm pretty sure you can consider that a typo considering that...
A) Your reading from the wiki, which anyone can edit (I've already fixed that section, to prevent future confusion). Look at the top contributors, 2 players (3 now, including me) and 2 ISD's. I would hardly consider that "CCP" not getting facts straight.
B) Now if you want to talk about "CCP" getting facts straight, I can point you towards the 4 different GM quotes that have stated that salvage belongs to nobody and that it is working as intended.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2009.10.01 16:28:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Yvonne Desire
Oy i did not say i dont want any risk. i said i want to be able to shoot at the thief. read my post before you reply.
Inb4 carebear crying their eyes out when the ninjas bring in proper pvp ships and pop their missionmobiles.
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2009.10.01 17:04:00 -
[42]
I think its a little ******ed that the loot is yours but the salvage isnt. Technically they should be the owner of the ships whos stuff was destroyed.If you wreck your car, the person responsible for destroying your car dont get your personal stuff and tow companies dont fight over the wreck with the person who wrecked it. Not that eve is based on real world anyway.
Salvaging was designed as a miniprofession. Almost like a public service. Salvage ships go around systems and clean up junk and then sell the good parts of it to make a bit of a profit.
If you dont want people salvaging your wrecks, pop them. any time i get a ninja salvager in my missions i simply pop all the wrecks. We both lose, whos it going to hurt more you or the salvager? i would say the salvager. DO this to the same salvager enough and he is going to quit going after your wrecks. its a waste of his time. he will find easier targets who just let him salvage or whine as he is doing it.
Personally i like annoying ninjas by shooting the wrecks right before they are able to salvage them. its like playing keep away with my dog... so gullible its funny. who couldnt use a little entertainment in their missions
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Nebularis
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Posted - 2009.10.01 19:59:00 -
[43]
At the moment, ninja-salvaging, as it's called, is more or less, risk free. that is a contradiction to everything else in the game. There is much reward, no risk. people are annoyed because this contradicts the balance of all other professions. mission runners face the risk of loot thieves, ninja salvagers and in low sec, piracy. Salvaging should have some risk to it to balance things out a bit. An aggression timer could do it, but it seems inelegant, and not really thought out. Salvaging in RL is known to be dangerous (yes i noticed people have been mentioning RL connotations) so perhaps there should be a chance of the wreck exploding when its salvaged causing a radius of large damage. Not a huge amount...maybe enough to take out or at least heavily damage a frigate or destroyer.
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kongking wang
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Posted - 2009.10.01 20:07:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Nebularis
At the moment, ninja-salvaging, as it's called, is more or less, risk free. that is a contradiction to everything else in the game. There is much reward, no risk. people are annoyed because this contradicts the balance of all other professions. mission runners face the risk of loot thieves, ninja salvagers and in low sec, piracy. Salvaging should have some risk to it to balance things out a bit. An aggression timer could do it, but it seems inelegant, and not really thought out. Salvaging in RL is known to be dangerous (yes i noticed people have been mentioning RL connotations) so perhaps there should be a chance of the wreck exploding when its salvaged causing a radius of large damage. Not a huge amount...maybe enough to take out or at least heavily damage a frigate or destroyer.
i totally aggre. people just want some sort of balance with other simmilar aspects of eve
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Svedge
Minmatar
NorCorp Technologies
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Posted - 2009.10.01 20:26:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Svedge on 01/10/2009 20:26:34
Risk free? Tons of risks while being a ninja.
- Scanning time, finding a suitable site.
- Toxic clouds.
- Finding a site that has already been salvaged by the missionrunner.
- Getting other ninjas in your newly found blockade site.
- Being suicided by raging carebears.
Its more risk free for the missionrunner to salvage his own sites. Its still salvaging
I laugh every time whenever some raging carebear starts poping wrecks and I never leave before he has popped everything.
Popping wrecks = popping wreck + loot, 2x loss for missionrunner = ninja wins.
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AsheraII
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Posted - 2009.10.01 22:17:00 -
[46]
Just a trip through a couple of systems, all within 10 jumps from Jita for those who wonder, so that's practically, only 10 minutes away from selling stuff:
Asteroid belts - an avarage of 2 unattended wrecks/belt
Deadspaces - an avarage of 12 unattended wrecks/room
Mission sites - an avarage of 20-22 unattended wrecks/site, way more if the mission site consists of multiple rooms
And with unattended, I mean there is nobody within 20-30 km from the wrecks, and those that may be present are definitely doing something else than salvaging. Whether it's mining or charging into a group of rats. If you're NOT salvaging, then I just assume you don't have your salvager installed, and needed the high slot for some extra firepower or whatever, it's as simple as that.
Now, this is a personal way of looking at it. EVE also allows for people to snag the body from under your hands, just as there are people who do not salvage anything wrecked by someone else at all.
There's definitely room for salvagers as a profession. The profession is currently VERY rewarding. I'm not going to say the profession is TOO rewarding though. That's a matter of market mechanics.
As long as so many wrecks are left unattended and their components are not ending up on the market *at all*, then there will be a slight shortage on the market and the salvaging profession will remain very profitable. And those few actively persuing it, will go to the places that yield the most salvage within the least amount of time.
While, if salvaging were to become less profitable, salvagers would more likely just pick up their salvage on the side while doing whatever else they do.
So EVE simply needs MORE salvagers, to bring down the market value of salvage components (another option would be that everybody stopped using rigs, which would crash the Salvaging market as well).
Next topic: the drop in value of Tritanium because of grand scale highsec AFK Veldspar mining..
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Jesslyn Daggererux
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.10.02 00:30:00 -
[47]
well, your wrong. if you read any of the links people gave you, you also know your wrong. if you are reading this and think people shouldnt be allowed to 'steal' your slavage, your wrong. now, with that being said id like to put forth my stance. i dont like how threads like this are always popping up, taking up valuable space that could be used for marginally useful people like Cat or a wii sex toy. its been beaten to death. thats the only reason i dont like it.
...but do i want a theft flag for salvaging, even if currently its wrong? yes. you just removed a step for me. it used to be id have to find something to steal to get a mission runner to shoot me. you want to remove a step and make it easier. fine. but its wrong. if such a thing ever happens i get to be even lazier, and will laugh at the top of my leaking roof at you. loudly. you cry and cry to make my job easier.
Originally by: CCP Fallout
Hola, esta forum es ingles solamente.
This forum is English only. Welcome to my lock. Now please, zip your pants. I don't need a show.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.10.02 09:17:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Gin G
Look i/everyone/the devs and there cats are getting real sick of you idiots
1 it isnt your salvage it belong to no one only the loot dose
2 if you dont like it you got two options
suck it up and quit you god damn whining
LEAVE EVE we would be thankful to see you gone so we dont have to put up whith youe whining and you can go spend you money on a game that you can enjoy with no risk that will hold you hand all the way though and make sure nothing bad ever happens EVER
I think the people getting ripped off feel the same way. Just cause someone at ccp says it's not stealing, doesn't mean it's not stealing.
When they addded loot can flagging it ended years of bickering and debate. No one could whine anymore cause you could try to protect what was yours if you chose to. And then some genius at CCP decided to roll the mechanic back. GG.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.10.02 09:26:00 -
[49]
theft is there where CCP says its theft because its their game and rules of playing it.
NPC loot should have no player owner anyways, its NPC stuff.
Problem solved and players would have to leave mission hubs if they want all the goodies dropping there for them alone.
Missions need a nerf, not a boost by giving kill rights on salvagers.
Fix the loot mechanics, its NPC loot, make the behavior the same like for player loot.
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AsheraII
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Posted - 2009.10.02 09:53:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
I think the people getting ripped off feel the same way.
How can you be ripped of that which you do not own?
Everything inside your cargoholds: your property, this can be stolen from you.
Everything inside a container that's yours: your property, this can be stolen from you.
Everything inside a wreck that's "yours": your property, this can be stolen from you.
The materials that together form the wreck, the stuff that the wreck itself is composed of: NOT your property, this can NOT be stolen from you.
You should be happy that there's at least something there that ninja-looters cannot steal from you. Simply because it's not yours in the first place. It is potentially yours though, which means that once you actually aquire it, others CAN take it from you. This would also involve a little bit of disassembling the rest of your ship, so do you want to go there? Do you want Salvagers to aquire their goods directly from your cargoholds?
There have been a couple of suggestions here about making it harder for Salvagers to work in your area, or to even find your mission area. I'd suggest you to learn from those, before some salvager corporations start to actively search for you specifically and take everything you find on a mission. This includes shooting last room-NPC's and emptying mission containers.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.10.02 10:03:00 -
[51]
We covered this. Just because ccp says it's not theft doesn't mean most people aren't going to consider it theft. By the letter of the law, and by all logic, it's theft. Sorry if some of us use logic instead of whim and fancy to come to conclusions.
It's a sci-fi game. If it's not at least plausible, you lose your audience.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.10.02 10:09:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 02/10/2009 10:09:35
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
It's a sci-fi game. If it's not at least plausible, you lose your audience.
thanks, for this reason salvage is free for everyone, like the loot should be to prevent all the confusing handling inconsistencies of NPC stuff ownership(reason because people feel robbed by salvagers).
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AsheraII
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Posted - 2009.10.02 12:11:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
We covered this. Just because ccp says it's not theft doesn't mean most people aren't going to consider it theft. By the letter of the law, and by all logic, it's theft. Sorry if some of us use logic instead of whim and fancy to come to conclusions.
It's a sci-fi game. If it's not at least plausible, you lose your audience.
By the letter of the law, it's perfectly legal in real life as well:
Linkage
The exception being wreckages found within territorial areas and on private property
By definition, space is *not owned*, so territorial or property laws will not apply, which makes it logical to refer to maritime laws instead.
So if anything, the contents of anything found in space, including trashcans and cargobins, would (should) also be free to anyone who grabs it. This not being the case is actually the odd part of this matter.
In case one would claim an entire system to belong to the government that has it's stations there: refer to these governments regarding laws for salvaging. In case those do not exist with that government, revert to the one most applicable, which would most probably be maritime law again.
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Stealnutz
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.10.02 12:35:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
We covered this. Just because ccp says it's not theft doesn't mean most people aren't going to consider it theft. By the letter of the law, and by all logic, it's theft. Sorry if some of us use logic instead of whim and fancy to come to conclusions.
It's a sci-fi game. If it's not at least plausible, you lose your audience.
It is not theft. It is game.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.10.02 12:46:00 -
[55]
Originally by: AsheraII
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
We covered this. Just because ccp says it's not theft doesn't mean most people aren't going to consider it theft. By the letter of the law, and by all logic, it's theft. Sorry if some of us use logic instead of whim and fancy to come to conclusions.
It's a sci-fi game. If it's not at least plausible, you lose your audience.
By the letter of the law, it's perfectly legal in real life as well:
Linkage
The exception being wreckages found within territorial areas and on private property
By definition, space is *not owned*, so territorial or property laws will not apply, which makes it logical to refer to maritime laws instead.
So if anything, the contents of anything found in space, including trashcans and cargobins, would (should) also be free to anyone who grabs it. This not being the case is actually the odd part of this matter.
In case one would claim an entire system to belong to the government that has it's stations there: refer to these governments regarding laws for salvaging. In case those do not exist with that government, revert to the one most applicable, which would most probably be maritime law again.
Did you actually read the artical you linked? Just because something is abandonded in international waters doesn't mean the original owner can't come claim it if he pays salvor for his work.
Doesn't mater though all space is owned by the empire you are in. High and low sec.
It also doesn't matter because it's not abandonded. In time of war the spoils go to the victor. Since you had concord permission to kill whatever ship you just blew up, ownership would transfer to you. Concord oversees all empire wars after all. So why would concord protect an uninvolved third party when they take your prize from a legal conflict?
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.10.02 12:57:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 02/10/2009 13:02:57
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Did you actually read the artical you linked? Just because something is abandonded in international waters doesn't mean the original owner can't come claim it if he pays salvor for his work.
where the original owner is still not the wrecker...
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
It also doesn't matter because it's not abandonded. In time of war the spoils go to the victor.
its not the question of where the spoils go but of the legal ownership.
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Since you had concord permission to kill whatever ship you just blew up, ownership would transfer to you.
its the current (questionable), contradictory mechanic to the salvage. Now the question. Which one is the proper one? Here we go, the one (me) thinks the salvage is correct, you think the loot mech. is the good one.
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Concord oversees all empire wars after all. So why would concord protect an uninvolved third party when they take your prize from a legal conflict?
if they oversee all empire wars, why should concord give a **** about all the paper work reassigning any ownership crap?
Concord doesn't protect, they punish any rule violation threatening lives, and because they dont give a **** about who grabs the stuff, they consider shooting salvagers as a violent action with all consequences.
And after all, the salvage is not a prize for you, the bounty is and the loot unfortunately.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.10.02 16:18:00 -
[57]
Few things
First Yes I understand that currently CCP does not define ninja-salvaging as theft.
I disagree with their position on this.
It's not enough to make me quit playing there are other mechanisms in the game that I find equally silly like insurance payouts for ships involved in illegal actions. (If concord blows you up insurance should not pay out.) Insurance companies make their money by finding ways to avoid paying out policies so it isn't very cold or harsh that insurers in EVE should be less ruthless and cold that real life insurance companies.
Now I have not personally had problems with Ninja-salvagers probably because I do salvage as I go and I don't mission run anywhere near Jita.
All that being said I still think that salvage should be counted as the property of the person who turned the fully functional starship into salvage in the first place in that it is a part of the spoils of war.
Now I don't think it should be imposible to ninja-salvage just that it should be flaged as a criminal act. Then it becomes the choise of the agreived party on whether to enforce their ownership rights or not.
If wrecks were flagged in the same way as a jetcan then the mission runner would have the choice of either ignoring the theft and going on about their business or engaging the target and potentially getting ganked when the ninja or his allies show up to claim the salvage with PVP support ships in tow.
At that point there is risk for both parties. The Ninja-salvager will probably loose their salvage boat (unless they are running a ship set up for PVP) and the mission runner could loose their ship if the Salvager is prepared for agression.
This tied in with the new proposed mechanism that allows people to flag wrecks as open for salvage purposes would work well in allowing salvaging to continue as a profesion while no longer being a risk free way of generating isk and greifing.
It would also increase the number of oportunities for PVP combat which seems to generally be considered a good thing.
It would also encourage missioning in ships that are fit for PVP which would reduce the mission runners ability to optimize their fits for PVE which would increase the risk level in mission running (should said mission runner decide they want to assert their salvage rights)
While on the subject of mission running the rats AI's could really use some buffing. I poped a rat that was bugging another players hulk the other day and it seemed silly that it's AI couldn't change targets from the hulk that was just sitting their to my cruiser that was blasting it.
I mean it seems to me that a large part of why mission running is such a great source of isk is that the missions themselves are extremely simplistic.
And while I'm enjoying the game quite a bit atm and I am interested in PVP (Just joined Red Federation last night to get some experience) the PVE stuff could use some serious work. Improving the NPC AI would go a long way to making those missions more difficult and less of a risk free source of ISK. (hmm think I found a post subject will have to see if anyone else has put a thread up on this)
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Tetragammatron Prime
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Posted - 2009.10.02 16:23:00 -
[58]
seems like these ninja salvage carebears are really getting worried about their "pvp" getting nerfed. Everyone keep the petitions rolling in and hopefully with the upcoming npc tax, sov changes etc we can also get a ninja salvage nerf so maybe they will move out to 0.0 to experience some real pvp.
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Altie McName
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Posted - 2009.10.02 16:32:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Tetragammatron Prime
seems like these ninja salvage carebears are really getting worried about their "pvp" getting nerfed. Everyone keep the petitions rolling in and hopefully with the upcoming npc tax, sov changes etc we can also get a ninja salvage nerf so maybe they will move out to 0.0 to experience some real pvp.
Very obvious troll here lol. Remember, some do it for the salvage only, not to get them to pvp or grief  . As for changes coming to salvaging, doubt any would come soon, at least the kind you're hoping for. Let's see what the creators of your game world think.
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Don't worry, CCP. We here at Suddenly NinjasÖ are working hard to add social interaction to generic missions
And we love you (and others like you) for it! In some weird and wonderful way, groups like yours operate as flag bearers for the full EVE experience, and we wouldn't want to change, or get in the way of that.
Also, lol.
Lol indeed, lol
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FISHANDCHIPS
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Posted - 2009.10.02 16:43:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Tetragammatron Prime
seems like these ninja salvage carebears are really getting worried about their "pvp" getting nerfed. Everyone keep the petitions rolling in and hopefully with the upcoming npc tax, sov changes etc we can also get a ninja salvage nerf so maybe they will move out to 0.0 to experience some real pvp.
Good old 00 whiners crying about how anyone who isnt playing eve THERE way isnt doing it right you know you lot are almost as funny as these MRs
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Hopster Citrine
Trust Foundation
Liberi Fatales
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Posted - 2009.10.02 16:49:00 -
[61]
OMG, ok... trying to refrain from screaming about another thread like this.
Ninja salvaging (or whatever you want to call it) is part of this game. Even though I do not pvp, and most of the time I am running missions. I have had a few salvagers in my missions. I deal with this by blowing up my wrecks (no salvage = ninja warps off). I agree that this is anoying, but deal with it. dont like it, go mission elsewhere. enough said, lock this and I dont want to see it again... 
Sometimes life gives you lemons, sometimes its an orange. But no matter what, people will always think of you as a fruit. |
Tetragammatron Prime
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Posted - 2009.10.02 17:08:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Tetragammatron Prime on 02/10/2009 17:08:26
Another idea is make lvl 4 mission deadspace/mission gate only allow BC/BS ship so it is not impossible for the mission runner to compete with the fast lock and flying frigates.
This would make these carebear ninja salvager have to go into low profit lvl1-2 missions where they will be on even footing with fellow noobs to compete for their salvage.
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FISHANDCHIPS
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Posted - 2009.10.02 17:30:00 -
[63]
Edited by: FISHANDCHIPS on 02/10/2009 17:35:28
Originally by: Tetragammatron Prime
Edited by: Tetragammatron Prime on 02/10/2009 17:08:26
Another idea is make lvl 4 mission deadspace/mission gate only allow BC/BS ship so it is not impossible for the mission runner to compete with the fast lock and flying frigates.
This would make these carebear ninja salvager have to go into low profit lvl1-2 missions where they will be on even footing with fellow noobs to compete for their salvage.
i rest my case your honor
although thinking about it seeing as you said yourself that your one of those 00 carebears whats your angle on this why do you seem to care about something that doesn't affect you if your missioning in low/00 you can just shoot them.
but please do fill me in i want to know really
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Tetragammatron Prime
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Posted - 2009.10.02 17:45:00 -
[64]
Sounds like majority of players agree that ninja salvager carebears should get the same risk vs reward balance like the rest of Eve. At least suicde gankers risk something for their gains (they are not coward carebears haha)
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Ellesd
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Posted - 2009.10.13 22:18:00 -
[65]
As someone who salvages indiscriminately (if you wanted the salvage that badly you would put a salvager on your ship) I would be HAPPY to sell all the whiners back their salvage... at half of market price (love a quick buck and the convenience of not having to go to market). You just never offer to do so. Me, I'm just cleaning up the spacelanes, preventing litter if you will. Sure, you say, "But it was all MINE to begin with BAAAAWWWWW..." then maybe you shouldn't have left it lying around where I could find it. Bottom line, wrecks are Matter Out Of Place (MOOP) and I reserve the right to groundscore it and thus keep the EVE world a more pristine place. Leave No Trace! :P
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.10.13 23:32:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Few things
First Yes I understand that currently CCP does not define ninja-salvaging as theft.
I disagree with their position on this.
It's not enough to make me quit playing there are other mechanisms in the game that I find equally silly like insurance payouts for ships involved in illegal actions. (If concord blows you up insurance should not pay out.) Insurance companies make their money by finding ways to avoid paying out policies so it isn't very cold or harsh that insurers in EVE should be less ruthless and cold that real life insurance companies.
Now I have not personally had problems with Ninja-salvagers probably because I do salvage as I go and I don't mission run anywhere near Jita.
All that being said I still think that salvage should be counted as the property of the person who turned the fully functional starship into salvage in the first place in that it is a part of the spoils of war.
Now I don't think it should be imposible to ninja-salvage just that it should be flaged as a criminal act. Then it becomes the choise of the agreived party on whether to enforce their ownership rights or not.
If wrecks were flagged in the same way as a jetcan then the mission runner would have the choice of either ignoring the theft and going on about their business or engaging the target and potentially getting ganked when the ninja or his allies show up to claim the salvage with PVP support ships in tow.
At that point there is risk for both parties. The Ninja-salvager will probably loose their salvage boat (unless they are running a ship set up for PVP) and the mission runner could loose their ship if the Salvager is prepared for agression.
This tied in with the new proposed mechanism that allows people to flag wrecks as open for salvage purposes would work well in allowing salvaging to continue as a profesion while no longer being a risk free way of generating isk and greifing.
It would also increase the number of oportunities for PVP combat which seems to generally be considered a good thing.
It would also encourage missioning in ships that are fit for PVP which would reduce the mission runners ability to optimize their fits for PVE which would increase the risk level in mission running (should said mission runner decide they want to assert their salvage rights)
While on the subject of mission running the rats AI's could really use some buffing. I poped a rat that was bugging another players hulk the other day and it seemed silly that it's AI couldn't change targets from the hulk that was just sitting their to my cruiser that was blasting it.
I mean it seems to me that a large part of why mission running is such a great source of isk is that the missions themselves are extremely simplistic.
And while I'm enjoying the game quite a bit atm and I am interested in PVP (Just joined Red Federation last night to get some experience) the PVE stuff could use some serious work. Improving the NPC AI would go a long way to making those missions more difficult and less of a risk free source of ISK. (hmm think I found a post subject will have to see if anyone else has put a thread up on this)
Finally someone who makes sence. Dude, get out of my head.
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AsheraII
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Posted - 2009.10.13 23:35:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Tetragammatron Prime
Sounds like majority of players agree that ninja salvager carebears should get the same risk vs reward balance like the rest of Eve. At least suicde gankers risk something for their gains (they are not coward carebears haha)
Interesting enough, there's a similar majority that wants all lvl 4 missions moved to lowsec.
Oh yes, I'm pulling the majority nonsense out of the same place where the sun don't shine that you pulled your "majority" nonsense from. Don't EVER assume "majority" is on your side.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.10.14 00:09:00 -
[68]
It's no secret that ninja salvagers are a VERY vocal minority. They are, for the most part, the same people that enjoy flame wars and trolling the forums. Griefing is griefing. It all appeals to them.
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Trigos Trilobi
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.14 01:20:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Few things
Think you and quite a few of others are either unaware or forgetting how salvage came into the game in the first place.
Before salvage&rigs were introduced, you popped an npc and the end result was either nothing or a can with the loot. Originally I think jetcans of various forms were free pickins but later on ccp threw miners and mission runners a bone and tagged the cans their property. Ironically that gave birth to various can baiting tactics we see these days and probably resulted in even more whinage but I digress.
So, CCP wanted to add rigs into the game. Cool stuff to customize your ship bit further, bit of a power creep in some aspects maybe, but fun stuff nevertheless. They build a bit on the rig idea, add bpos and materials from which they're made off and design bit of profession around procuring said materials. So, besides adding salvage cans into exploration, they also change killing ships so that all ship kills, player or npc, now result in a salvageable wreck. Unfortunately (though understandably, for performance reasons) they decide to put loot inside of wrecks instead of a kill resulting in both a wreck and a loot can.
This causes all kinds of problems, the biggest of which is that poor mission runners get confused and think that the newly added, valuable resources were intended for THEM instead of the salvagers, while the devs actually have pretty unambigously stated the opposite. Which is all the more greedy considering the mission runners who want to also double as salvagers are already at a big advantage as they know where the wrecks are without probing. CCP's shortsighted softhearted moment granting loot/jetcans ownership earlier also results in a bit of an inconvenient compromise between mission runners, salvagers and server performance in that rules for tractoring, shooting and otherwise handling wrecks doubling as lootcans are bit of a mess and those ill-adviced might come to the conclusion that salvaging is thieving.
In reality, though, the mess is there just to protect mission runner interests, and the various arguments I hear based on that mess to prove that salvaging is thieving are just plain backwards. The fact that you're granted the priviledge to the loot does not in any shape or form entitle you to have first dibs on the salvage. If anything, professional salvagers should rise to the barricades because the dubious loot ownership complicates their business and should be done away with. Since, at the core, the only inconsistent bit in the ownership/aggression rules and the root cause of all this confusion and drama is the fact that someone at some point thought it was a good idea to grant the ownership of npc wrecks / jetcans to the killer.
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Tau Dades
Caldari
Even End of the Universe
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Posted - 2009.10.14 04:15:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Yvonne Desire
read my post before you reply.
no, generic ninja whine is generic.
srsly, do you all have a secret chat channel in game where you work out who gets to poast the next phail whine this hour?
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Metalcali
Pacific Dawn
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Posted - 2009.10.14 04:23:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
It's no secret that ninja salvagers are a VERY vocal minority. They are, for the most part, the same people that enjoy flame wars and trolling the forums. Griefing is griefing. It all appeals to them.
I don't ninja salvage or grief, yet I am for this mechanic. I'm also all for people who petition people who do grief them in game. Please try and be fair when you talk about this topic, like you kind of used to be, and don't lump everyone into one group because of your opinion.
---
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
Locked.
OP does not contain an idea.
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Talaan Stardrifter
Blue-Sun
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Posted - 2009.10.14 05:07:00 -
[72]
Hi,
Just posting in the third ninja salvaging thread on the front page of Features & Ideas.
FFS! 
Your wrecks, they are MINE!
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Saint Germain
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.10.14 05:43:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Yvonne Desire
i said i want to be able to shoot at the thief.
Try running your missions in low security systems, you can shoot anyone who shows up then.
Text Editing Service |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.10.14 21:31:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Metalcali
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
It's no secret that ninja salvagers are a VERY vocal minority. They are, for the most part, the same people that enjoy flame wars and trolling the forums. Griefing is griefing. It all appeals to them.
I don't ninja salvage or grief, yet I am for this mechanic. I'm also all for people who petition people who do grief them in game. Please try and be fair when you talk about this topic, like you kind of used to be, and don't lump everyone into one group because of your opinion.
Yeah, ok it's true, not all ninja salvagers do it for the lulz. The ones that do though, are usually the ones screaming for things to stay the same here on the forums.
I still think the best solution is to put the flag back and let people probe for wrecks. Bring the old time "garbage man" back.
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