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Does the Scimitar deserve a grid boost?

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Sepelio Fas	Posted - 2009.06.05 20:45:00 - [1] My apologies if this is a double post from somewhere else on the ships/modules thread. If it is I couldn't find it, but I didn't spend all day combing through every page to try and find it either. Anyway so I was noticing that the scimitar seems to get slightly screwed when it comes to the ability to remote transfer while coming even remotely close to being cap stable and have any kind of hitpoint buffer. This is mostly due to the fact that in comparison with the other logistics ships it has far far less grid. Sitting in an otherwise empty ship with engineering 5 the grid levels for the cruisers are as follows. Guardian 1343 pg Basilisk 1031 pg Oneiros 1062 pg Scimitar 687.5 pg Basically the scimitar sits base at 3/5 the grid or less of each of the other logistics. Further more the guardian and the oneiros each receive a grid reduction bonus to the modules they fit making it far easier to fit an actual buffer tank in addition to their remote reps. Yes i realize that caldari and minmatar get cpu reduction because they need them to fit the much cpu heavier shield transfer arrays, and caldari is not incredibley hindered by this as even with it's 2 lows you can put 2 pds IIs in there and get enough grid to still fit an 18k shield buffer and use 3 large remote shield reps being cap stable without an energy transfer array to feed you. I know most people use them in tandem to rep and energy transfer between them as they do the guardian which is something else that makes the scimitar inferior. As for the Oneiros you can make it cap stable running all 4 large remote armor transfers and give it a 16k shield buffer which makes it absolutely perfect for roaming gangs that want to take a logistics ship along. The closest I've been able to fit the scimitar with is (using 2 rcu IIs) is about 11k shield before I have to use so many rcu II's that i can only use 1 rep and remain cap efficient. The only point I am trying to make is that the scimitar just seems to woefully under perform in comparison with the other 3 logistics. I'm not advocating for making the scimitar completely pwnage when it comes to remote reps but it does stand to reason that the race which is known for its nomads and quick strike forces should at least have a logistics ship that is viable for roaming gangs. Don't get me wrong I think that the oneiros does a wonderful job filling that niche for armor reppers. But I think that the scimitar should be able to fill a similar role for shield reppers. The guardian and the basilisk already have the large fleet logistics role cinched and so I feel that the scimitar is without a niche. Mostly I just get told to train a different race for logistics (something I would greatly appreciate if you avoided saying in this thread). Anyway I am only one mind so I would greatly appreciate input on this from the rest of you out there in digital spaceship land. Also opinions on how much extra grid the scimitar should get as well would be helpful. Thanks and Safe Skies (unless you like violence as much as me)
Letifer Deus Balls Deep Inc.	Posted - 2009.06.05 21:06:00 - [2] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 05/06/2009 21:12:57 While the scimi might not be the best logistics when it comes to raw repping power, it performs very well in roaming HAC gangs. It is superior to the Oneiros in this role as it is significantly faster/lighter with a lower sig radius and most importantly, because HAC gangs tank shield, not armor. I would certainly not say the scimi "woefully underperforms" in the role it is designed for.
Twin blade Minmatar The Triangle Veneratio Venator Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.05 21:15:00 - [3] Edited by: Twin blade on 05/06/2009 21:16:07 It could use a tiny boost to fittings but over all the ship is better than all the others for roaming gangs. Its tiny move`s at Ludacris Speed and is not far off been as nimble at a frig and its easy to make it cap stable with 3 reps and a MWD. Its over all a great ship tho the tracking link bonus is utter crap and is wasting a bonus slot that could be better used for any thing.
Poses	Posted - 2009.06.06 00:28:00 - [4] Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 05/06/2009 21:12:57 While the scimi might not be the best logistics when it comes to raw repping power, it performs very well in roaming HAC gangs. It is superior to the Oneiros in this role as it is significantly faster/lighter with a lower sig radius and most importantly, because HAC gangs tank shield, not armor. I would certainly not say the scimi "woefully underperforms" in the role it is designed for. this tbh i fly a scimitar alot and seeing it get boosted in some way would make my day... but it dosn't really need it
Sepelio Fas	Posted - 2009.06.06 00:48:00 - [5] Edited by: Sepelio Fas on 06/06/2009 00:53:34 okay so it has a smaller sig radius, which gets screwed by either a shield buffer tank or turning on a mwd. I don't really see how going ludicrously (and you have a slow version of ludicrous) fast is an advantage in comparison with the ability to withstand damage as you will almost always be primaried as the logistics. When you consider the other logistics abilities I just don't know how you can say they are all equal. and honestly I would like to know how you run a mwd and run 3 large shield transfers and be cap stable. And if you do manage then you're certainly going to die if primaried because you have no buffer at all. And if you're talking about running medium shield transfer arrays then there is another indication of inequality as it is the only logistic ship that has to run mediums instead of larges.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Interstellar eXodus	Posted - 2009.06.06 00:57:00 - [6] Well the schimmy used to be the best logistics by far, 'till they nerfed nanos. Now it's about on the same level (maybe a tad better imo) as the others for roaming, and inferior to the bassy in larger fleets.
SFX Bladerunner Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies	Posted - 2009.06.06 01:00:00 - [7] I think the real underlying issue here is the same as with most minmatar ships that get called 'underpowered'. The issue is that most minmatar ships (or atleast the ones that get most fussed over) have a specific 'bonus' which is Speed. However all the EFT warriors out here want simple numbers I.E. in the case of a logistics ship: reppers vs cap stability (+tank). People often tend to overlook the ship 'attribute' of speed, which is why all those EFT warriors keep crying on here. They say that the minmatar ships nowhere near compare to other race's counterparts, cuz of 'TEH NUMBERS'. In the end it comes down to this: comparing apples to pears. sig radius, agility and speed are completely different to things like EHP, CAP, DPS and REPPING (to name a few regular variables that are deemed important) The issue is that in most cases the gallente, amarr and caldari versions have about the same numbers for sig, agil and speed but vary only in the 'regulars' while minmatar on the other hand have superior sig agil and speed but are lacking in the 'regulars'. Because everybody always conciders the 'regulars' to be most important they immediatelly put the minmatar ships into the 'underpowered' category. So the question is: Has CCP got the 'apple to pear' conversion ratio/formula correct? __________________________________________________ History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever..
Sepelio Fas	Posted - 2009.06.06 02:08:00 - [8] i honestly hadn't thought of it in those terms. Though tbh i actually can and do fly a scimitar and every time i do i feel ridiculously fragile. I understand that speed can and is an asset as well as the theory behind a small sig radius being advantageous. In practice however I find that the apples vs. pears argument generally ends up with the pears (in this case minmatar ships) dying as a result of not having the ability to withstand the torment that the apples (other races ships) can. So the ship is quick which is nice 2k/s not fitting for speed with just a mwd, but the sig radius blooms ridiculously on any ship with an mwd as we all know. So it comes down too I honestly don't think that being able to go a little faster 350m/s than the oneiros with just a mwd fitted, is going to make the scimitar survive longer in a roaming type of engagement. At least not while providing the same level of support. so my question is how are you fitting the scimitar to be an awesome roaming ship, maybe i'm just not seeing the picture clearly enough.
Poses	Posted - 2009.06.06 03:22:00 - [9] [Scimitar, roamin] Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Large Shield Extender II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Prototype ECCM I Ladar Sensor Cluster Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Large Shield Transporter II Large Shield Transporter II [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I my fit: cap stable with logi 4 goes 2.5km/s so the only things that are faster then you are intys and vagas in any engagement i engage at rage (as far away as i can be while keeping reps on) and the speed lets me keep that... other then that i might note that I've had the one fit like that for over 6 months now I've been on or been repping someone who was on over 50 kills in that time and I've never lost it. i can hear the complaint that i don't have enough repping on the fit, but from practical experience its enough to tank a HAC through shields thats at speed vs almost anything
Robert0288 Caldari g guild Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.06.06 03:44:00 - [10] For its role a scimi is an excellent ship and imo doesn't really need to be looked at. Although I'm not a fan of the tracking link bonus either for the scimi or the onerios.
Sepelio Fas	Posted - 2009.06.06 04:02:00 - [11] you've kind of made my point for me. You can use half the amount of remote rep ability while tanking (regardless of what kind of tank you support using; be it shield or speed). I understand that it makes a good roaming ship now, but when compared with it's counterparts It just doesn't match up well. I'm not proposing to change the ship dramatically just trying to prove that it is in fact lacking the power grid necessary to make it comparable to the logistics of the other races in ability. You've convinced me that perhaps speed was meant as it's defense. But that still doesn't address it's lack of ability to fit the same amount of reppers as the other 3 races, while doing it's job. Plus it doesn't go fast enough to completely avoid missles, so yet again this is a minmatar ship that is screwed when facing caldari, because it doesn't have the pg to mount a buffer in addition to its speed (as the vaga,rapier,huginn,or other minmatar cruiser hulls do).
Poses	Posted - 2009.06.06 06:29:00 - [12] Originally by: Sepelio Fas you've kind of made my point for me. You can use half the amount of remote rep ability while tanking (regardless of what kind of tank you support using; be it shield or speed). I understand that it makes a good roaming ship now, but when compared with it's counterparts It just doesn't match up well. I'm not proposing to change the ship dramatically just trying to prove that it is in fact lacking the power grid necessary to make it comparable to the logistics of the other races in ability. You've convinced me that perhaps speed was meant as it's defense. But that still doesn't address it's lack of ability to fit the same amount of reppers as the other 3 races, while doing it's job. Plus it doesn't go fast enough to completely avoid missles, so yet again this is a minmatar ship that is screwed when facing caldari, because it doesn't have the pg to mount a buffer in addition to its speed (as the vaga,rapier,huginn,or other minmatar cruiser hulls do). you ------- 70km --------vaga ---- 20km ---- drake thats 90km.... i don't think you really have to worry about missile ships :P the thing is that even if they gave it more PG it wouldn't be able to perma run the other reps so its kinda irrelevent
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Interstellar eXodus	Posted - 2009.06.06 06:58:00 - [13] What do you intend to do with more PG anyway? It can fit an impressive buffer + mwd + 3 medium reps already. If you want large reps, the bassy fills that role; reduced speed and agility for increased rep power.
Real Poison Minmatar Stormlord Battleforce Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.06.06 07:23:00 - [14] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu It can fit an impressive buffer + mwd + 3 medium reps already. If you want large reps, the bassy fills that role; reduced speed and agility for increased rep power. medium reps on a logistics are truely "impressive"
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.06 08:13:00 - [15] Scimi can use a small increase in PG imo. It isnt too weak now, but it also wont be too strong when it gets a bit more PG, so it can just fit a bit more repping power.
AZN Steve Amarr	Posted - 2009.06.06 11:34:00 - [16] [Scimitar, New Setup 2] Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Drone Link Augmentor I Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Shield Maintenance Bot I x4 Light Shield Maintenance Bot I x1 needs logistics 5 and a 3% pg implant so yes , it could use 3% more pg !
Twin blade Minmatar The Triangle Veneratio Venator Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.06 14:13:00 - [17] Originally by: Sepelio Fas Edited by: Sepelio Fas on 06/06/2009 00:53:34 okay so it has a smaller sig radius, which gets screwed by either a shield buffer tank or turning on a mwd. I don't really see how going ludicrously (and you have a slow version of ludicrous) fast is an advantage in comparison with the ability to withstand damage as you will almost always be primaried as the logistics. When you consider the other logistics abilities I just don't know how you can say they are all equal. and honestly I would like to know how you run a mwd and run 3 large shield transfers and be cap stable. And if you do manage then you're certainly going to die if primaried because you have no buffer at all. And if you're talking about running medium shield transfer arrays then there is another indication of inequality as it is the only logistic ship that has to run mediums instead of larges. I just lack logstic's 5 to make to fully cap stable but thats on my todo list. x3 large S59a shield x1 Drone link x1 MWD T2 10mn x2 Inv T2 x1 Kin T2 x1 Cap recharger T2 x3 CPR T2 x1 Nano T2 X2 CCC Cap stable once i get logstic's 5 its not quite ludicrously fast as i might of clamed befor but its fast nimble and cap stable. 16k EHP abit low but your going at 2.2k so should out run most enemys and if you have a good gang they will catch any thing befor they can catch you. If i replace the nano for a DCU T2 i get 21k EHP but i slow down to 2k. The sig jumps form 65 to 390 but you can rep your gang form 70km to avoid the massive sig been a problem. If you want you can use Ewar/warrior's drone`s to defend your self or get on kill mails. A little more PG might allow a shield extender on with out having to change the set up. Death is great rember where all dying to get there.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.06.06 14:27:00 - [18] I'd say its fine. A bit different than the other logistics but a good ship.
Sepelio Fas	Posted - 2009.06.06 17:38:00 - [19] okay so say that I jump in too a gate camp with a gang as often happens in 0.0 roaming engagements. Hell in eve it seems that 90% of all engagements either occur around a gate or a POS and the other 10% involve jumping some poor fool in a belt. That smaller sig radius and the ability to go 2.2k a second won't help me a damn bit as i get primaried and missile pwnd before i can run out to range to try and stay away from the drake that the vaga in your scenario is trying to kill. So yeah its a fine ship for gate camping but gate camping is not roaming. Secondly I hate the EHP qoutes. 21k EHP will give you between about 2k and 5k damage take when you read your kill mail after you're toasted. And whichever one of you that says it can already fit an impressive buffer plus a mwd is on crack. The Oneiros (an armor repping ship) can fit a much bigger shield buffer than can the scimitar. And the Onyx and the Guardian makes the Oneiros's defense look weak. I'm not really sure why everyone is disagreeing with me so strongly because I think it's obvious that the scimmy is just not up to snuff to compete with the other logistics ships as far as repping power vs. lastability. Hell it can barely fit an even amount of repping power and if it does, it's paper thin. 2.2k/s or not that just simply isn't fast enough to be a feasible defense anymore thanks to the speed nerf and missle (whatever the opposite of a nerf is). I seriously don't know how you can say it's an equal ship when it can't do an equal job. It's the only logistics ship without the ability to mount some form of effective tank while running large reps. I can see though that apparently no one is going to agree with me. SO consider this thread closed. I'm done arguing.
Sepelio Fas	Posted - 2009.06.07 07:25:00 - [20] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu What do you intend to do with more PG anyway? It can fit an impressive buffer + mwd + 3 medium reps already. If you want large reps, the bassy fills that role; reduced speed and agility for increased rep power. I want an equal **ing ship you stupid ass tard. I don't want to have to cross train into caldari every ing time i want to fly a worthwhile ship. YOu ing missle tards *ed and whined until they nerfed anything nano'd b/c you were too stupid and lazy to mount a neut on your ship to counter it. and now your ing missles are the ultimate pwnage. And when i ask for an improvement to one ing ship what do you tell me. TO ING FLY A CALDARI ship. Let's just start calling this caldari online b/c you ***es seem to get what you want in this universe.
Nostredeus Morphius Minmatar Beyond Transcendence	Posted - 2009.06.07 13:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Sepelio Fas Originally by: Atsuko Ratu What do you intend to do with more PG anyway? It can fit an impressive buffer + mwd + 3 medium reps already. If you want large reps, the bassy fills that role; reduced speed and agility for increased rep power. I want an equal **ing ship you stupid ass tard. I don't want to have to cross train into caldari every ing time i want to fly a worthwhile ship. YOu ing missle tards *ed and whined until they nerfed anything nano'd b/c you were too stupid and lazy to mount a neut on your ship to counter it. and now your ing missles are the ultimate pwnage. And when i ask for an improvement to one ing ship what do you tell me. TO ING FLY A CALDARI ship. Let's just start calling this caldari online b/c you **es seem to get what you want in this universe. Hands Sepelio a gun* "We wont judge you if you take your life" :P
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.06.07 13:33:00 - [22] It's spelt "missiles".
Sepelio Fas	Posted - 2009.06.07 18:43:00 - [23] Originally by: Gypsio III It's spelt "missiles". it's actually spelled missiles, "spelt" is the past participle of the word spell (as in it was once spelled that way). So if you're going to correct my English at least use the correct grammar. And yes i still think you're a ****tard
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.07 18:49:00 - [24] Originally by: Sepelio Fas Originally by: Atsuko Ratu What do you intend to do with more PG anyway? It can fit an impressive buffer + mwd + 3 medium reps already. If you want large reps, the bassy fills that role; reduced speed and agility for increased rep power. I want an equal **ing ship you stupid ass tard. I don't want to have to cross train into caldari every ing time i want to fly a worthwhile ship. YOu ing missle tards *ed and whined until they nerfed anything nano'd b/c you were too stupid and lazy to mount a neut on your ship to counter it. and now your ing missles are the ultimate pwnage. And when i ask for an improvement to one ing ship what do you tell me. TO ING FLY A CALDARI ship. Let's just start calling this caldari online b/c you ***es seem to get what you want in this universe. Are you sad? So now you are comparing scimis tank to the tank of an onyx, why not immediatly just compare it to a capital ship? Scimi is fine, it isnt the best in raw repping power, but it has a role and it does good for that role, logistics for fast moving gangs. If you got inties in watch list you can often even safe them. (And the only logistics i can use is a scimi, like said before, i would be happy with a few percent grid boost, but it really is fine.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.06.07 19:40:00 - [25] Originally by: Sepelio Fas Originally by: Gypsio III It's spelt "missiles". it's actually spelled missiles, "spelt" is the past participle of the word spell (as in it was once spelled that way). So if you're going to correct my English at least use the correct grammar. And yes i still think you're a ****tard Actually, both are acceptable, with "spelt" being found everywhere from Love's Labour Lost to the 1911 Britannica. Unless, of course, you don't believe in the existence of a world outside the US of A... Also, I'm sure that we'd appreciate your insightful grammatical analysis of the OP. And everyone knows that "missles" were "nerfed into uselessness" by QR.
Cherab Minmatar Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.06.08 02:13:00 - [26] Edited by: Cherab on 08/06/2009 02:15:13 Originally by: AZN Steve [Scimitar, New Setup 2] Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Drone Link Augmentor I Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Shield Maintenance Bot I x4 Light Shield Maintenance Bot I x1 needs logistics 5 and a 3% pg implant so yes , it could use 3% more pg ! That fits without implant - just Shield upgrades V. I fiddled with it to get eccm on and still cap stable with mwd [Scimitar, cap stable] Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive ECCM - Ladar II Cap Recharger II Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Drone Link Augmentor I Auxiliary Thrusters I Capacitor Control Circuit I Warrior II x5
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Interstellar eXodus	Posted - 2009.06.08 02:25:00 - [27] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 08/06/2009 02:32:49 Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 08/06/2009 02:29:35 Originally by: Sepelio Fas I want an equal **ing ship you stupid ass tard. I don't want to have to cross train into caldari every ing time i want to fly a worthwhile ship. YOu ing missle tards *ed and whined until they nerfed anything nano'd b/c you were too stupid and lazy to mount a neut on your ship to counter it. and now your ing missles are the ultimate pwnage. And when i ask for an improvement to one ing ship what do you tell me. TO ING FLY A CALDARI ship. Let's just start calling this caldari online b/c you *es seem to get what you want in this universe. I said the schimmy was better. Originally by:** Real Poison medium reps on a logistics are truely "impressive" It's really not that bad; but someone wanted a good buffer with perma rep+mwd, which is easily doable with medium transports (3 t2 mediums + t2 mwd cap stable with 47k buffer) without rigs. Personally, I would go larges and search for a cap stable setup that had more than 30k buffer after rigs, or the best I could do. I would also fly the bassy (much to my FC's annoyance), since I'm not gonna cross train to fly the better gang logistic; at least I shine as gate bait
Ralara Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.06.08 06:37:00 - [28] Edited by: Ralara on 08/06/2009 06:39:28 Originally by: Sepelio Fas Originally by: Gypsio III It's spelt "missiles". it's actually spelled missiles, "spelt" is the past participle of the word spell (as in it was once spelled that way). So if you're going to correct my English at least use the correct grammar. And yes i still think you're a ****tard I bet you pronounce it "skimitar", though, like a tard :) It's Sim-itar, the c is silent By the way, that's not what past participle means.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Interstellar eXodus	Posted - 2009.06.08 06:46:00 - [29] Originally by: Ralara I bet you pronounce it "skimitar", though, like a tard :) SHUT UP!
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.08 07:04:00 - [30] The Scimitar has many "best in it's class" qualities for certain roles, so having a slight (and I say slight cause it's very strong in overall and fitting it is actually straightforward despite it's versatility) weakness in PG is nothing to be concerned with. And by no way is the Scimi a worse than the Basilisk in actual tanking abilities: it's way faster, with way smaller Sig Radius (EFT warriors should really broaden their horizons) and better overall resistances...u can fit a good EHP shield tank using just one LSE and support it with a DC II and/or an invulnerability field...it's not like u luck cap stability with it running, and a second LSE would hurt your sig radius = one of your primary advantages tanking-wise... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!

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