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Draulin
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.11 12:32:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Lexa Hellfury If you're getting caught by gate camps, you're doing something wrong to begin with.
I love how people say this, but I've been caught in multiple gate camps, and not one of them was warping TO a gate, it was at first arrival in the system every time. When in a BC or BS that cannot align quickly I still haven't figured the solution to that one. |
Gorefacer
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.06.11 12:59:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Vyllana More ways to escape and avoid fights is the last thing this game needs.
Also agree.
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Rajere
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.06.11 13:02:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Rajere on 11/06/2009 13:03:36
Originally by: Draulin
Originally by: Lexa Hellfury If you're getting caught by gate camps, you're doing something wrong to begin with.
I love how people say this, but I've been caught in multiple gate camps, and not one of them was warping TO a gate, it was at first arrival in the system every time. When in a BC or BS that cannot align quickly I still haven't figured the solution to that one.
Do you seriously not know what a scout is? btw Trial accounts are free, so even if you have no corp/no friends/no isk or $ to pay for a 2nd account, the logoff mechanics are such that even though you can't run both accounts at once on the same HD/PC/whatev, you still have no excuse for flying a BC/BS around unscouted in lowsec, or more likely in empire during a wardec I would assume in your case, since you don't know what scouting is. |
Lt Angus
Caldari End Game. Dead End.
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Posted - 2009.06.11 13:06:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Draulin
Originally by: Lexa Hellfury If you're getting caught by gate camps, you're doing something wrong to begin with.
I love how people say this, but I've been caught in multiple gate camps, and not one of them was warping TO a gate, it was at first arrival in the system every time. When in a BC or BS that cannot align quickly I still haven't figured the solution to that one.
goto love return customers |
Drahkar
Maximum Yarrage
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Posted - 2009.06.11 13:51:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Vyllana Or how about this one:
You're a solo belt pirate and after hours of painstaking hunting you've finally found your first (and likely only) prey of the night. You warp in, scram and web them, and start shooting. 30 seconds later, they warp off.
Sorry, thanks, but no thanks. Guess it all depends on your point of view, whether you are the predator or the prey ;p
Originally by: Marcus Gideon Come on now...
Imagine the average gate camp ransom situation.
Worn down to structure, and the leader sends convo invite. "Hi, how much do you value your ship and implants?"
Luckily, you've had the descrambler running since your gate cloak fell. By the time they get around to naming a price, you're aligned and gone. Seems they conveniently Webbed you as well, and that 75% speed is now all of 5m/s.
Or how about what would most likely happen? You're an innocent carebear carelessly going through lowsec in your iteron V with your brand new 3x Cargo Optimizer rigs for 50 millions each and you have those new anti-scrambler modules in your meds. Your cargo is empty because you're on the way to grab it. You jump through a gate and it's being camped.
This happens on the pirates' vent :
"Alright guys, f*ck it, everyone and their dog got away while we were ransoming. Scramble this guy, overheat your guns and shoot to kill, maybe we can get some nice loot since ransoming never works anymore."
You lose your 150 millions rigged iteron, pirates get no loot. You look at your wallet and tell yourself "Wouldn't it be great if pirates could ransom me? I would've been willing to pay them 60 millions to get away and everyone would be happier... "
btw, the module you're looking for is ECM and I shoot to kill whenever I know the enemy has a single one of them. |
Verloc Nostromo
Black Mesa LEGION.
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Posted - 2009.06.11 15:44:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Verloc Nostromo on 11/06/2009 15:44:49 what if the proposed module ony protected from the effects of a bubble? I agree that you shouldnt be able to run from fights too easily, but how many pple ask for PvP to revolve less around the bubble? If it protectd you from a bubble (not immidiately as in the T3 sub) but not from direct warp scram, would that not solve the "running from fights" problem and give a somewhat minor nerf to bubbles?
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ThrashPower
Gallente Black Rainbow Knights
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Posted - 2009.06.11 16:49:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Lexa Hellfury
Originally by: ThrashPower
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Predator: Warp disruptor, Warp scrambler (basically the same option, really) and bumping to an extent. Three.
Prey: Warp stabs, killing the predator, neuting the predator, jumping out, docking, moving out of scram/disruptor range, ecm. Seven.
lol I hope this is a joke, clearly killing the prey is not an option available to the predator. the predator can not neut the prey either for some reason? you can't warp off with no cap.
lol, I hope this is a joke. Not being able to warp the entire way to your destination isn't the same as not being able to warp at all
Read my post before you quote it. I wrote you can't warp of with no cap. no cap means 0 GW which is not the same as 1 GW (which I know is enough to initiate warp).
Highly unlikely scenario as ships have a natural cap regeneration, but so were the scenarios in the post I originally quoted.
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Andrest Disch
Amarr Debitum Naturae
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Posted - 2009.06.11 16:52:00 -
[38]
Another change/module that will force pvp'ers to form even bigger gangs?
No thanks.. the backstory can keep it. |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.06.11 17:02:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 11/06/2009 17:05:32
Originally by: ThrashPower
lol I hope this is a joke, clearly killing the prey is not an option available to the predator. the predator can not neut the prey either for some reason? you can't warp off with no cap. the predator cannot use eccm or his own ecm module to counter his prey's ecm? Staying in range is suddenly a problem too?
None of those things keep the prey from warping. You can warp with one cap unless you're a capital (and by warp I mean jumping, a capital can warp the same as the ship I guess, so this option becomes even less viable).
The things listed for the prey enable him to warp.
The game has many more options for the prey than the predator. The predator just tends to be better.
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.06.11 17:10:00 -
[40]
Originally by: ThrashPower Edited by: ThrashPower on 11/06/2009 04:26:52
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Marcus Gideon Except the predator has how many options?
And the prey essentially has 1. And it's a pretty useless option at that.
Predator: Warp disruptor, Warp scrambler (basically the same option, really) and bumping to an extent. Three.
Prey: Warp stabs, killing the predator, neuting the predator, jumping out, docking, moving out of scram/disruptor range, ecm. Seven.
lol I hope this is a joke, clearly killing the prey is not an option available to the predator. the predator can not neut the prey either for some reason? you can't warp off with no cap. the predator cannot use eccm or his own ecm module to counter his prey's ecm? Staying in range is suddenly a problem too?
Originally by: Vyllana More ways to escape and avoid fights is the last thing this game needs.
yeah we wouldn't want to nerf the blob would we...
Allow me to explain this in simple terms that you are able to understand (maybe):
Even with only a couple of cap units you are able to warp. You just won't get very far.
ECCM is a countermeasure - not a way to keep your prey from escaping.
You cannot stop someone from escaping by running away from them (duh).
Finally, allowing people to escape from a single scrambler (or two) will not help fight the blob. Blobs do not have problems tackling people because they have so many tacklers. However, solo players do have problems tackling someone who is full of WCS, let alone your super-WCS. This change would in fact encourage gate-camping with blobs and put yet another nail in the coffin of solo PvP. |
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.06.11 17:57:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Vyllana More ways to escape and avoid fights is the last thing this game needs.
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Wacktopia
Infinity Miners Union Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr
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Posted - 2009.06.11 18:55:00 -
[42]
Propulsion inhibitors make PvP possible. The warp stabs are deliberately aweful to ensure it stays that way. The story you read is fiction. EVE is real life. Er.
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.11 23:01:00 -
[43]
Originally by: ThrashPower Edited by: ThrashPower on 11/06/2009 04:26:52
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Marcus Gideon Except the predator has how many options?
And the prey essentially has 1. And it's a pretty useless option at that.
Predator: Warp disruptor, Warp scrambler (basically the same option, really) and bumping to an extent. Three.
Prey: Warp stabs, killing the predator, neuting the predator, jumping out, docking, moving out of scram/disruptor range, ecm. Seven.
lol I hope this is a joke, clearly killing the prey is not an option available to the predator. the predator can not neut the prey either for some reason? you can't warp off with no cap. the predator cannot use eccm or his own ecm module to counter his prey's ecm? Staying in range is suddenly a problem too?
Originally by: Vyllana More ways to escape and avoid fights is the last thing this game needs.
yeah we wouldn't want to nerf the blob would we...
Where the **** did this rumor start! --
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Invelious
Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies
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Posted - 2009.06.11 23:05:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Marcus Gideon Except the predator has how many options?
And the prey essentially has 1. And it's a pretty useless option at that.
instead of being a P**sy you can fight to the death or set up a trap and kill the pirate trying to gank you in the belt or mission.
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Guy Fitzgerald
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Posted - 2009.06.12 01:24:00 -
[45]
i am all for this item, if in exchange we throw out the gate/station guns in low sec :P |
Grimpak
Gallente Clubs and Diamonds
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Posted - 2009.06.12 08:47:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Grimpak on 12/06/2009 08:47:43
Originally by: FT Diomedes
Originally by: Vyllana More ways to escape and avoid fights is the last thing this game needs.
Agreed.
your sig rules, winning the internets for +100000 points ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
myresearch whorse
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Posted - 2009.06.12 12:52:00 -
[47]
You guys are soo full of ****....
Seriously, Warp Core Stabs were removed for one reason, and one reason only.
Because big blobbie groups like BOB, Stain Empire, etc couldnt fight the little guys like Rome and Burn Eden.
The blob would stay in a packed little formation and get destroyed by small roaming gangs, with better tactics.
All removing warp core stabs did, was encourage blobbing so that 1 side just blasts until the other side dies.
Such Bull**** on these forums. |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.12 13:22:00 -
[48]
Originally by: myresearch whorse You guys are soo full of ****....
Seriously, Warp Core Stabs were removed for one reason, and one reason only.
Because big blobbie groups like BOB, Stain Empire, etc couldnt fight the little guys like Rome and Burn Eden.
The blob would stay in a packed little formation and get destroyed by small roaming gangs, with better tactics.
All removing warp core stabs did, was encourage blobbing so that 1 side just blasts until the other side dies.
Such Bull**** on these forums.
Removed? lolwut?
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.06.12 13:33:00 -
[49]
Originally by: myresearch whorse You guys are soo full of ****....
Seriously, Warp Core Stabs were removed for one reason, and one reason only.
Because big blobbie groups like BOB, Stain Empire, etc couldnt fight the little guys like Rome and Burn Eden.
The blob would stay in a packed little formation and get destroyed by small roaming gangs, with better tactics.
All removing warp core stabs did, was encourage blobbing so that 1 side just blasts until the other side dies.
Such Bull**** on these forums.
Actually, a blob wouldn't have problems tackling a roaming gang whether or not the roaming gang had WCS's fitted, but a solo player or small gang would have problems tackling other ships simply because they don't have enough points to counteract the WCS. Stabs only help the blobs, because only blobs have enough points to overcome a guy with a +16 warp strength.
Also, for the record, WCS weren't removed, they were nerfed because everyone and their mother was flying around in invincible stab-BS with +5 warp strength which couln't be tackled easily.
Note: I wasn't actually around back then so this last bit might be a bit wrong.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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myresearch whorse
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Posted - 2009.06.12 16:08:00 -
[50]
Edited by: myresearch whorse on 12/06/2009 16:10:25 Edited by: myresearch whorse on 12/06/2009 16:10:16 I would also like to add.
... Not that I'm bitter about it.
Edit: Note: Removed for this style of pvp, not from the game. |
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente The NightClub
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Posted - 2009.06.12 16:11:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Wacktopia Propulsion inhibitors make PvP possible. The warp stabs are deliberately aweful to ensure it stays that way. The story you read is fiction. EVE is real life. Er.
See... and here I thought the EVE Chronicles were stories of stuff happening elsewhere in the universe, while you're floating next to a gate waiting for your next killmail.
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foobarx
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Posted - 2009.06.12 16:29:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Rajere Edited by: Rajere on 11/06/2009 13:03:36
Originally by: Draulin
Originally by: Lexa Hellfury If you're getting caught by gate camps, you're doing something wrong to begin with.
I love how people say this, but I've been caught in multiple gate camps, and not one of them was warping TO a gate, it was at first arrival in the system every time. When in a BC or BS that cannot align quickly I still haven't figured the solution to that one.
Do you seriously not know what a scout is? btw Trial accounts are free, so even if you have no corp/no friends/no isk or $ to pay for a 2nd account, the logoff mechanics are such that even though you can't run both accounts at once on the same HD/PC/whatev, you still have no excuse for flying a BC/BS around unscouted in lowsec, or more likely in empire during a wardec I would assume in your case, since you don't know what scouting is.
Scouts are only useful if the campers are incompetent. Normal gate camps these days consist of a cloaked alt on the incoming side and a "camp" that's aligned to the gate but not actually there. They'll let your scout through and smoke the ship you're trying to protect.
You basically have two options to deal with gate camps - the first is to avoid them altogether by spotting them with map statistics. This works pretty well, assuming the camp wasn't erected withing the last half hour or so. But it's pointless if you want to travel into an area that's always camped.
The second is to fly fast/small/cloaking ships that can survive a camp. In lowsec that's prett much any frigate, or, if you have good skills, destroyer, plus recons and speed-fit HACS. In 0.0 it's mostly the interceptors, recons. and speed-fit HACS.
These days if you're moving through an area with gate camps it's easier just to move a blueprint out to the destination and build the ship where you want it. Fly the modules in with large capacity frig (like a Probe).
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.12 16:37:00 -
[53]
Originally by: foobarx Scouts are only useful if the campers are incompetent. Normal gate camps these days consist of a cloaked alt on the incoming side and a "camp" that's aligned to the gate but not actually there. They'll let your scout through and smoke the ship you're trying to protect.
You basically have two options to deal with gate camps - the first is to avoid them altogether by spotting them with map statistics. This works pretty well, assuming the camp wasn't erected withing the last half hour or so. But it's pointless if you want to travel into an area that's always camped.
The second is to fly fast/small/cloaking ships that can survive a camp. In lowsec that's prett much any frigate, or, if you have good skills, destroyer, plus recons and speed-fit HACS. In 0.0 it's mostly the interceptors, recons. and speed-fit HACS.
These days if you're moving through an area with gate camps it's easier just to move a blueprint out to the destination and build the ship where you want it. Fly the modules in with large capacity frig (like a Probe).
There's this wonderful thing called local. When your scout jumps into a seemingly empty system with a bunch of -10s in local that should be a hint.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Mike Voidstar
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Posted - 2009.06.12 16:53:00 -
[54]
Thing is... Camping isn't PVP. It's more akin to mindless griefing.
If you want to have good PVP, you need a goal to fight over. Putting in more structures that need to be defended would mean that the neither the predators or prey are trying to run, and it also means that if anyone does run, they lose the goal of the encounter anyway.
Currently, the goal is simply to try and either avoid or outrun the campers, with the mechanics heavily in favor of those campers. With most things in the game, there is a tit for tat balance in things--scrambler vs. descrambler, ecm vs sensors, afterburner vs. webber, etc. The the way the mechanics of these systems have worked out, in the name of PVP, is that every advantage is given to the predators.
There should not be a way to 100% lockdown a ship from warping, any more than there should be a way to 100% prevent that from happening. |
Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2009.06.12 17:01:00 -
[55]
EvE is too far gone into the idea that the outcome of a fight has to be an explosion. So all game changes have to facilitate someone dying.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
The AB/OD Fix |
Marcus Gideon
Gallente The NightClub
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Posted - 2009.06.12 17:03:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Anubis Xian EvE is too far gone into the idea that the outcome of a fight has to be an explosion. So all game changes have to facilitate someone dying.
QFT --- Players aren't interested in Variety, they only want THE BEST. |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.12 17:07:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Anubis Xian EvE is too far gone into the idea that the outcome of a fight has to be an explosion. So all game changes have to facilitate someone dying.
What possible other outcome could their be? The only other options are: 1. Ransom. 2. Carebears get to run away from every fight and have no repercussions for wandering into dangerous space unprepared. Low and null sec are supposed to be dangerous. |
foobarx
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Posted - 2009.06.12 17:09:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Originally by: foobarx Scouts are only useful if the campers are incompetent. Normal gate camps these days consist of a cloaked alt on the incoming side and a "camp" that's aligned to the gate but not actually there. They'll let your scout through and smoke the ship you're trying to protect.
You basically have two options to deal with gate camps - the first is to avoid them altogether by spotting them with map statistics. This works pretty well, assuming the camp wasn't erected withing the last half hour or so. But it's pointless if you want to travel into an area that's always camped.
The second is to fly fast/small/cloaking ships that can survive a camp. In lowsec that's prett much any frigate, or, if you have good skills, destroyer, plus recons and speed-fit HACS. In 0.0 it's mostly the interceptors, recons. and speed-fit HACS.
These days if you're moving through an area with gate camps it's easier just to move a blueprint out to the destination and build the ship where you want it. Fly the modules in with large capacity frig (like a Probe).
There's this wonderful thing called local. When your scout jumps into a seemingly empty system with a bunch of -10s in local that should be a hint.
Sure, that's why lots of campers log in before they go to work or school, so those -10s are there all day long. And virtually every boundary system contains a few chars like that around the clock. |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.06.12 17:21:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Mike Voidstar
There should not be a way to 100% lockdown a ship from warping, any more than there should be a way to 100% prevent that from happening.
Sigh.
A WCS makes you 100% immune to a single point. There are also half a dozen other ways to get yourself out of a warp scramble.
Nothing in Eve is 100%. The more options you give to the prey to making it out, the bigger the blobs get. |
Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2009.06.12 17:32:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Originally by: Anubis Xian EvE is too far gone into the idea that the outcome of a fight has to be an explosion. So all game changes have to facilitate someone dying.
What possible other outcome could their be? The only other options are: 1. Ransom. 2. Carebears get to run away from every fight and have no repercussions for wandering into dangerous space unprepared. Low and null sec are supposed to be dangerous.
Have some imagination will ya?
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
The AB/OD Fix |
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