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Gedein Jeishta
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Posted - 2009.06.13 16:42:00 -
[1]
Falcon got fixed (boosted tbh) first. Eos and arazu got issues since... i can't remember when. Will we ever see them fixed?
If you don't know what i'm talkin'about: Eos need a different bonus, and please stop stupidly saying that it is a good one, nobody use it and we all know why; the arazu need some love aswell, range? damp strenght? another mid slot for damp? I'd like to see people discussing about it, but i already know that all i will get is flame, so, let's get it started.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.06.13 16:57:00 -
[2]
Honestly, damps were mostly fixed with the recent patch. It wouldn't get imbalanced by slightly longer range, but it's not bad the way it is. I wouldn't mess with neither it nor the arazu in it's entirety. Lachesis could use a hand, but not in terms of EW, but rather general design. Compared to rook and curse that is. Still not in terrible need of redesign.
Eos however is bad. Really bad. Mainly because additional levels of command ships are next to pointless. It's crap for fleets and can be replaced by better ships for small gangs. Best way to sort it would be to give it a bonus to some sort of non-offensive attribute. This could include logistics drones, ew-drones, remote repairers or anything really. We had a good discussion about it some time ago, and a very good suggestion came out of it, sadly I can't quite recall the details of it. |
Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.13 16:58:00 -
[3]
Arazu is ****in' fine. God people don't stop *****ing... |
Wideen
Warped Mining Strip Mining Club
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Posted - 2009.06.13 17:01:00 -
[4]
Eos needs to be brought back to the way it was before, only it should be able to field fighters because now it's just not putting out enough damage!
and arazu should recover its I-win button |
Max Tux
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Posted - 2009.06.13 18:23:00 -
[5]
vs a single target an arazu is an I win button - can damp any ship to under a range it can point
recons are fine, or do u want the nerf bat to hit them all again?
as for eos.... can't comment
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate Onslaught.
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Posted - 2009.06.13 18:31:00 -
[6]
Make information mindlinks apply to points, webs and maybe nos/neuts. That IMO would fix the eos right there, giving it a really freaking awesome set of links instead of the crap ones no one uses now.
Arazu is an awesome ship, it's not amazing on its own but pair one together with a stealth bomber and you've got a wtf**** team from 50km out. |
Max Tux
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Posted - 2009.06.13 18:43:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Cambarus Make information mindlinks apply to points, webs and maybe nos/neuts.
why would you do that? heard of skirmish warefare link - interdiction maneuvers ?
if not
Quote:
Boosts the range of the gang's propulsion jamming modules, except for Warp Disruption Field Generators.
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate Onslaught.
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Posted - 2009.06.13 18:46:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Max Tux
Originally by: Cambarus
why would you do that? heard of skirmish warefare link - interdiction maneuvers ?
if not
Quote:
Boosts the range of the gang's propulsion jamming modules, except for Warp Disruption Field Generators.
My bad, not much of a CS pilot myself and I've never flown with a minni one before :P
Still, a mindlink that increases the strength of webs/neuts would make the eos worth flying would it not? |
Max Tux
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Posted - 2009.06.13 18:57:00 -
[9]
just because you have a gal CS doens't mean you can't fit minnie gang links, the bonus means you get
( on a 3% base level - interdiction maneuvers vs sensor integrity)
without the slot 10 implant. ( but level 5's)
using the race specific ship give you 25.87% bonus. using the wrong racial ship gives you 22.5% bonus.
i would fit the strength of ewar, range of ewar, and the range of point mods personally on an EOS. |
Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis The Space P0lice
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Posted - 2009.06.13 20:07:00 -
[10]
Give the Gal Recons a shield tank bonus. Damps are pretty much a joke tbh. |
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Noskill McCheese
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.06.13 20:42:00 -
[11]
Whoops I saw "time to fix" and thought this thread was about large projectiles. Oh well carry on.
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Max Tux
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Posted - 2009.06.13 22:53:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Artemis Rose Give the Gal Recons a shield tank bonus. Damps are pretty much a joke tbh.
damps are fine as long as you understand their limitations, they aren't i-win buttons no, and require some thought and intelligence ( and skills)to be used correctly
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Kamina Kasai
Glittering Dust
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Posted - 2009.06.14 07:44:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Kamina Kasai on 14/06/2009 07:44:22 But why ECM is I-win button (even after nerf)? Falcon still can turn off several ships at once. Do not ONLY damp range of ONE ship.
And please give your advise how to fly dampener ships effectively. With killboard proof links.
Also: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=788361 |
Fuazzole
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Posted - 2009.06.14 07:58:00 -
[14]
Eos can put out a LOT more damage than the other 3 Fleet Command Ships and if triple repper with armored warfare it will do more tank more dps and longer lasting cap then a siege-claymore with an extra mid slot utility to boot.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.06.14 08:37:00 -
[15]
I find it hilarious that someone can comment on the Falcon, whilst at the same time whining that the Eos sucks.
I also find it hilarous at people complaining the Arazu sucks, as if they've somehow not noticed that warp scramblers got a rather notable boost recently. |
Trovarion
Gallente Spook Division BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.06.14 09:58:00 -
[16]
just give my Eos the 125 bandwidth back. i don't care if it's ballanced or not but that's what the dronebay bonus was intended for (heavy drones) and that is why I trained for it. xP kthxbye |
Eithen Kihne
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Posted - 2009.06.14 10:25:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Fuazzole Eos can put out a LOT more damage than the other 3 Fleet Command Ships and if triple repper with armored warfare it will do more tank more dps and longer lasting cap then a siege-claymore with an extra mid slot utility to boot.
Fail, try again.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.06.14 11:02:00 -
[18]
yes please boost as I can fly an arazu now
and get ready to boost the eos, can almost fly it, might make me actually want to finish off the command ship training.
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Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.14 12:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Marcus Druallis Arazu is ****in' fine. God people don't stop *****ing...
- I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
arbiter reformed
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.06.14 13:07:00 -
[20]
lol. arb sits in his damnation watching this thread smiling
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.06.14 14:58:00 -
[21]
In short, fleets - Damnation and vulture both awesome. Great tank, vulture gets points for being able to regenerate hitpoints and also deal damage at those 200km, however obviously gets much less effective hitpoints and less used gang bonuses.
Small gang - Claymore awesome, deals good damage, is mobile and grants great bonuses for the rest of the gang. Gets an active tank bonus, but also won't be taking that enormous amount of incoming dps(compared to damnation and vulture) and is fast enough to decimate the incoming damage further.
Eos... fits neither of these. The bonuses are decent at best, for both fleets and small gangs. It's to slow to keep up with a roaming small gang, and the tank is to poor not to pick one of the other instead. It did deal awesome damage making it a great small gang boat, but now that even the damage is meh there's just no reason to fly it. It was way to strong solo earlier. Way to strong. Which is also why replacing the rather useless command ship bonus with something that doesn't make the ship itself that much stronger but helps the ones around it quite a bit is in order. Another example would be to lower badnwidth use of logistics drones by x% per level. |
Max Tux
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Posted - 2009.06.14 16:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Kamina Kasai Edited by: Kamina Kasai on 14/06/2009 07:44:22 But why ECM is I-win button (even after nerf)? Falcon still can turn off several ships at once. Do not ONLY damp range of ONE ship.
ECM isn't an I-win button it allows you to temporally break a targets lock, and several ships is a very misleading number, falcon can jam two ships reasonably reliably, but any more than this is pushing the ability to keep a jam against all targets.
Don't forget that ECM is the falcons ONLY bonus unlike all 3 other races that get bonii to 2 types of ewar
So yes the arazu can only damp one target to a point where its invincible, but it can also provide scrams at 20km and points at 50km.
you need to look at the bigger picture, take the ship as a whole.
i'm not saying you should only damp one ship ( although is the best idea in some circumstances) but just comparing its abilities verses a single ship.
and posting a link to a thread with ppl also complaining doesn't make you right, i can post to threads saying ecm is now rubbish is you really want.... |
MrLobster
Clawstrawphonebeer
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Posted - 2009.06.14 17:19:00 -
[23]
Increase damp strength, but only allow 1 damp to be used on any single target. |
Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.14 18:05:00 -
[24]
Originally by: NoNah In short, fleets - Damnation and vulture both awesome. Great tank, vulture gets points for being able to regenerate hitpoints and also deal damage at those 200km, however obviously gets much less effective hitpoints and less used gang bonuses.
Small gang - Claymore awesome, deals good damage, is mobile and grants great bonuses for the rest of the gang. Gets an active tank bonus, but also won't be taking that enormous amount of incoming dps(compared to damnation and vulture) and is fast enough to decimate the incoming damage further.
Eos... fits neither of these. The bonuses are decent at best, for both fleets and small gangs. It's to slow to keep up with a roaming small gang, and the tank is to poor not to pick one of the other instead. It did deal awesome damage making it a great small gang boat, but now that even the damage is meh there's just no reason to fly it. It was way to strong solo earlier. Way to strong. Which is also why replacing the rather useless command ship bonus with something that doesn't make the ship itself that much stronger but helps the ones around it quite a bit is in order. Another example would be to lower badnwidth use of logistics drones by x% per level.
Agree. One thing tho, since the nos change, the Eos lost alot of it's solo power, and the bandwidth killed the damage. Even if the Eos got the ability to field five heavy/sentry again, it wouldn't have the nos it had before - which honestly was the major factor for it to be that powerful in the first place, not the drones itself.
The tank on it is fine, it's bit too weak for large fleets, and not unbreakable for medium size, but same time it isn't insane. The Astarte got crappy tank and huge damage. Sleipnir got fine tank and good damage. I.e. my point is; I can't see any reason not to give the Eos the old bandwidth again. It will have better tank than the Ishtar, yah, as well as more damage/easier to fit. But same time it won't be agile enough for roaming gangs, and too weak tank for fleets.
The most reasonable and simple thing to do with it would just be to increase the damage, and imho, the guns on it is fine. Nos nerfed = guns are used, and gunpoints on the Eos isn't ****. Boost it's dronebay. Imho. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Kamina Kasai
Glittering Dust
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Posted - 2009.06.14 20:34:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Max Tux Don't forget that ECM is the falcons ONLY bonus
ECM is effective but RSD is almost useless. Average battleship's range will be around 15km after three perfect arazu dampeners. It is far away from ECM effect.
Originally by: Max Tux and posting a link to a thread with ppl also complaining doesn't make you right, i can post to threads saying ecm is now rubbish is you really want....
It is not for rightness proof. Just whant to make more people voting :) |
Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.06.14 20:51:00 -
[26]
The Arazu is a decent ship. If you go and compare it to the rapier it has a stronger tackle (1 scram outpreforms 2 webs and a disruptor) that takes 1 slot instead of 3. The tackle is a little shorter range (~18km instead of 24km not overheated) but you can stick more of it on if you really want to. The rapier is a little bit faster and more agile. The arazu is a little tougher. (Both probably should shield tank.) Most of their damage comes from a 40m^3 dronebay although they can pull a little bit out of their guns.
And they both have a kinda crappy second ewar. Target painters stink. Damps phail compared to ecm. Against a solo target a range damping long pointed razu can tackle it long enough to slowly chew it to death or for help to arrive, if the arazu is faster. An interceptor can fill pretty much the exact same role at a fraction of the price and trades the ability to tackle faster targets for vulnerability to nuets.
The only reason a rapier would fit a target painter is because he was flying with stealth bombers that didn't want to fit them for themselves. Cr4ppy stealth bomber pilots. The rapier should be putting on more webs or tank.
So the arazu is a fine ship. The eos however is not. Info warfare is weak. An armor rep tank doesn't have a place in small gang warfare where it is too slow, or large scale engagments where the active rep gets alpha striked away. This is more a problem with the design philosophy and the current metagame than the actual power of the ship. The deimos has simular problems. |
Max Tux
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Posted - 2009.06.14 22:56:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kamina Kasai
ECM is effective but RSD is almost useless. Average battleship's range will be around 15km after three perfect arazu dampeners. It is far away from ECM effect.
ok, so say you lock a BS down to 15km, It will stay that way as long as you have cap.
comparing it to ECM?
ECM may prevent lock, but it is chanced based, sooner or later you will miss with all 7 jammers for a cycle and then you are dead / have to warp. This is as likely to happen as being "perma-jammed" and if you listen to anyone talking about ECM this seems to happen in every fight
you can't compare a chance based Ewar, vs a non chance based ( i know there is a better word) ewar, it just doesn't work
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.06.14 23:15:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Max Tux
Originally by: Kamina Kasai
ECM is effective but RSD is almost useless. Average battleship's range will be around 15km after three perfect arazu dampeners. It is far away from ECM effect.
ok, so say you lock a BS down to 15km, It will stay that way as long as you have cap.
comparing it to ECM?
ECM may prevent lock, but it is chanced based, sooner or later you will miss with all 7 jammers for a cycle and then you are dead / have to warp. This is as likely to happen as being "perma-jammed" and if you listen to anyone talking about ECM this seems to happen in every fight
you can't compare a chance based Ewar, vs a non chance based ( i know there is a better word) ewar, it just doesn't work
Sure you can. It's just not easy. That said, don't confuse damps with some ewar that always hits. Damps get a 45km optimal, beyond that point they're chancebased, and dampening any longer range ship below those 45km is no easy task, meaning they'll need to be outside that range and be chancebased.
The problem that was with damps is mostly that a falcon with ease can cancel out any dampening ship, however no dampening ship could cancel out a falcon. It stayed true for 0km it stayed true for 249km. Now falcons still have the stronger EW, but they also have to sacrifice more of a ship to obtain it. The arazu got other uses(which in reality is their primary - damps being a secondary or tertiary task). I fear the recons havn't been as balanced as they are today in years. Possibly barring the Lachesis that doesn't quite have any articulate role. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 69456
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.06.15 06:33:00 -
[29]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: Max Tux
Originally by: Kamina Kasai
ECM is effective but RSD is almost useless. Average battleship's range will be around 15km after three perfect arazu dampeners. It is far away from ECM effect.
ok, so say you lock a BS down to 15km, It will stay that way as long as you have cap.
comparing it to ECM?
ECM may prevent lock, but it is chanced based, sooner or later you will miss with all 7 jammers for a cycle and then you are dead / have to warp. This is as likely to happen as being "perma-jammed" and if you listen to anyone talking about ECM this seems to happen in every fight
you can't compare a chance based Ewar, vs a non chance based ( i know there is a better word) ewar, it just doesn't work
Sure you can. It's just not easy. That said, don't confuse damps with some ewar that always hits. Damps get a 45km optimal, beyond that point they're chancebased, and dampening any longer range ship below those 45km is no easy task, meaning they'll need to be outside that range and be chancebased.
An Arazu with max skills and rigs gets -57.57% damping. A ship with 110km locking range just about has enough to be over that 45km. There's not many ships on that list - the other recons, and a couple of battleships maybe. I know the Rokh will just about cope. Well, at least, until you turn a second dampener on it.
Or if you're using an Eos, that the world seems to be declaring 'fail' that's -67.66%. Meaning 140km lock range is needed.
Quote:
The problem that was with damps is mostly that a falcon with ease can cancel out any dampening ship, however no dampening ship could cancel out a falcon. It stayed true for 0km it stayed true for 249km. Now falcons still have the stronger EW, but they also have to sacrifice more of a ship to obtain it. The arazu got other uses(which in reality is their primary - damps being a secondary or tertiary task). I fear the recons havn't been as balanced as they are today in years. Possibly barring the Lachesis that doesn't quite have any articulate role.
This I agree with - Both Lachesis and Huginn have the same problem - losing out on slot count thanks to being 'split weapon', and losing out on ability to scale damage despite being the 'doing damage recon' as a result. |
Kirja
R.u.S.H. Red Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.15 08:57:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita The Arazu is a decent ship. If you go and compare it to the rapier it has a stronger tackle (1 scram outpreforms 2 webs and a disruptor) that takes 1 slot instead of 3. The tackle is a little shorter range (~18km instead of 24km not overheated) but you can stick more of it on if you really want to. The rapier is a little bit faster and more agile. The arazu is a little tougher. (Both probably should shield tank.) Most of their damage comes from a 40m^3 dronebay although they can pull a little bit out of their guns.
And they both have a kinda crappy second ewar. Target painters stink. Damps phail compared to ecm. Against a solo target a range damping long pointed razu can tackle it long enough to slowly chew it to death or for help to arrive, if the arazu is faster. An interceptor can fill pretty much the exact same role at a fraction of the price and trades the ability to tackle faster targets for vulnerability to nuets.
The only reason a rapier would fit a target painter is because he was flying with stealth bombers that didn't want to fit them for themselves. Cr4ppy stealth bomber pilots. The rapier should be putting on more webs or tank.
So the arazu is a fine ship. The eos however is not. Info warfare is weak. An armor rep tank doesn't have a place in small gang warfare where it is too slow, or large scale engagments where the active rep gets alpha striked away. This is more a problem with the design philosophy and the current metagame than the actual power of the ship. The deimos has simular problems.
Quoting just because it is an excellent example of quality post. We should have more of that.
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