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Altorr
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Posted - 2009.06.17 20:58:00 -
[1]
Alright, we'll start this post out positively:
EVE seems great.
I've only been at this game for a few days, but I can tell the player experience is rich. There are several venues for generating that sweet cash-money; and, as opposed to some other MMORPG's I've seen, the non-combat methods for making money aren't eye-stabbingly tedious.
With my trusty slew of level 1 skills (OK, most are 2,3 or 4 now), I've been exploring to a small degree each of these money-making options. I've been pouring through guides, watching prices as I move around, killing pirates with my Rifter in low-sec, anything to try something new.
Last night I checked out the contract system in closer detail, and found myself running a courier mission. Quite easy, I dropped off some heavy cargo and claimed my 2M reward. Thirsty for more, I found another decently paid courier Op. Success again! I've doubled my money in little more than a half hour! This is amazing!
As my inhibitions melted to my newfound ISK lust, I ran across a mission that had a 4M collateral, and paid a solid 5M. No better way to get into a cruiser than with the extra cash to replace it when I did something dumb, I thought to myself... So I took the mission, regardless of the fact that it was in nullsec space. After all, it was only 2 jumps from high-sec... it couldn't be that bad.
As I jumped in, I immediately set my warp drive to "AWAY FROM THE GATE," but they were waiting for me. In my newbdom, I was so excited (and groggy from just waking up) that I didn't pay particularly close attention to the ships that fired. Despite being in a Hoarder, despite having subpar shield tanking skills, despite being humorously outmatched, I got out of range before I got the scrambled, and warped to the station.
Giddy with the success of my mission I set a docking course and approached the perimeter.
248,000,000.00 ISK to dock. Adrenaline still pumping, I clicked OK (I thought, 250k to land? That kinda sucks). Yeah. I don't have 248M.
So. I'm looking for options. I'd even be willing to pay the 5M 'reward' just to be able to dock and spite the scammer. I haven't cracked open the 2,500 m3 package yet. Undoubtedly it's probably toenail clippings or the like. Any way I can get on that dock, or somehow avoid the 4M guillotine?
I know it's more than likely a lost cause; I figured I'd at least ask before I sulked all sad-like back to poverty. |
Tranka Verrane
Public Venture Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.06.17 21:13:00 -
[2]
Officially this kind of scam is permitted, since all they are exploiting is your lack of research. Look me up in Irjunen and I'll see you refunded by that amount, it's really not much, and possibly even a small enough amount that it wasn't atually a scam but a genuine courier you just couldn't fulfil.
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Andres Talas
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Posted - 2009.06.17 21:15:00 -
[3]
You're pretty much stuffed.
On the plus side, it's only four million :) Others who have fallen for that scam have lost a lot more.
Basically, dont take contracts to 0.0 or losec without scouting it out first in a frigate, *before* you take the contract.
A variant is for a pirate to put a contract up for delivery, and then when the contract is accepted to organise a gate camp on the system it has to go to.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.06.17 21:29:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Tranka Verrane
Officially this kind of scam is permitted,
It's not a scam.
Issuers of contracts are not responsible for ignorance on the part of the people who accept them.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Altorr is at fault or anything. He's a new player and he is not yet fully aware of all game mechanics. It sucks that he can't complete the contract he chose to accept, but that does not make it a scam. Altorr should write off the 4M and consider this a lesson learned: check the destination of a courier contract and make sure that you can dock there.
FREE! jumpclone service: Forum thread|Podlog |
Merouk Baas
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Posted - 2009.06.17 21:38:00 -
[5]
It's not a scam in the same way that taking ore from a can floating in space next to some miner is not ore theft.
Beware courier prices and destinations. Be careful if you buy stuff from the contracts system, and even from the Market interface. And be careful when you haul stuff; if you have valuable stuff in your (undefended) industrial ship, you will be attacked even in high sec. |
lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis
The Space P0lice
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Posted - 2009.06.17 22:29:00 -
[6]
Can you contract the contract package? Just wondering 
Could pass it on to someone else :P |
Tranka Verrane
Public Venture Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.06.17 23:08:00 -
[7]
I think some people need to learn the difference between a scam and an exploit. A scam is some way in which someone uses deceit to extract money from them in a way outside of natural game mechanics.
Anything that involves lying, deceiving, stealing, or generally taking money from people under false pretences is a scam. If someone puts up a courier mission with a deliberate intention to con the unaware either out of their isk or to lure them into somewhere they can be shot at they are scamming. Whether you think that is immoral or not is totally beside the point, it is merely a matter of semantics, and defending them as not scamming is absurd.
However Eve is an environment that seeks to mirror the real world and create another, immersive environment, it is not a nanny state. If such scams do not break the fourth wall, as it were, and impinge upon the real world, then they are allowed.
Exploiting is a different matter, something that uses game mechanics in an unintended way to get around hard and fast rules like the EULA or real world laws.
Please stop getting all prissy and uptight when someone says that something is a scam. If something looks like a duck and quacks like a duck the chances are that it's a freaking duck, ok? Get over it. That in itself does not mean there is any grounds for petition or complaint.
Finally as I said in my previous post there is every chance this was not even a scam, and they are likely to be as annoyed as you are not to get their stuff.
Scams are allowed.
Exploits are not.
There is a good possibility this was a scam.
There is no way this was an exploit.
Player Since 2005
Over 4000 hours logged
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Altorr
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Posted - 2009.06.18 02:28:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Altorr on 18/06/2009 02:29:21
Wow, quite a bit of responses in a short time. I'd like to clarify something, at least to make my standpoint clear.
I'm aware that this is not in any way an exploit.
The veracity of it's scamliness(as opposed to a mistake entirely on my part as the contract was not created to cause this issue) has yet to be determined, until I get an opportunity to speak to the issuer of the contract.
In any case, I did indeed make a mistake. My questions were intended to be more directed towards completing the mission, either for spite (scam) or just to get the goods to the contractor. My lack of familiarity of game mechanics has lent me hope that there was an option I had missed.
I love this game because this kind of stuff happens. It kinda sucks a little, I did lose a majority of my fledgling capital; but that openness leads to a vast array of possibilities. I'm not even that mad. Worst case scenario: I grind some missions down and rebuild cash.
I'm not complaining, just checking my options from others far more knowledgeable than myself. |
Agent Known
Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.06.18 02:36:00 -
[9]
Crack open the container and maybe you'll be able to make "some" of the losses back by selling off whatever's inside...or you can reprocess it if it's just crap mods and such.
This is probably why I never accept courier contracts or freeforms for that matter. There's so many of those "fake" ones around it's difficult to make money as a courier (did I mention boring?).
Sorry you lost your ISK, but at least you're asking questions and not raging like some people do. Welcome to EVE!  |
Kezzle
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Posted - 2009.06.18 09:04:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Altorr
...I did lose a majority of my fledgling capital...
But you managed to save your Hoarder, so you'll earn it back at some point. Hurrah.
Quote:
After logging in, I found my 4M replaced....Yay!
The game is slewing with decent folk as well as mired in those with fewer scruples.
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gfldex
Kabelkopp
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Posted - 2009.06.18 11:02:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Altorr
I'm not complaining, just checking my options from others far more knowledgeable than myself.
Read and understand the warnings the client gives you. They are there for a reason. |
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.18 15:20:00 -
[12]
On the plus side you went to 0.0 and escaped a gate camp which is more than some people who have been playing the game for years have managed to do. |
Estel Arador
Minmatar
Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.06.18 16:12:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tranka Verrane
I think some people need to learn the difference between a scam and an exploit.
You think too much. Just like last month when you decided what I meant you're completely off the mark. When I say "not a scam" I mean "not a scam" and I don't mean "not an exploit".
Originally by: Tranka Verrane
A scam is some way in which someone uses deceit to extract money from them in a way outside of natural game mechanics.
Anything that involves lying, deceiving, stealing, or generally taking money from people under false pretences is a scam.
You start out so well, with a definition which might actually be useful - if you cared to use it of course.
Originally by: Tranka Verrane
If someone puts up a courier mission with a deliberate intention to con the unaware either out of their isk or to lure them into somewhere they can be shot at they are scamming. Whether you think that is immoral or not is totally beside the point, it is merely a matter of semantics, and defending them as not scamming is absurd.
Contract issuer wants to have his package moved from A to B in exchange for X isk. He asks for Y collateral.
A, B, X, and Y are all fixed beforehand and listed clearly. Anyone looking at the contract can consider those parameters before choosing to accept. Where is the "lying, deceiving, stealing, or generally taking money from people under false pretences" in this?
This is not a Raven with a description "Raven Navy Issue"; this is not an item exchange for 100M isk with the description "100k isk"; this is not a freeform contract which looks like an item exchange; this not a scam. |
gfldex
Kabelkopp
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Posted - 2009.06.18 17:12:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Where is the "lying, deceiving, stealing, or generally taking money from people under false pretences" in this?
The intend (given that the contract issuer is affiliated with the ppl that setup the docking fee) is to keep either the collateral or to keep the docking fee. There is only one way to learn the docking fee and that is to try to dock there.
I will give you another example. Let's say we agree that I build you a house and you pay me some money. Now the backing system (unsuprisingly) collapses and you therefore can't pay me. Are you a scammer? Of cause not. Your intend was to pay me for my work.
If you would have had knowledge about the banking collapse (because you happen to be a banker) the thing turns around completely. In that case it's undecidable if you scammed me or not.
Scam or fraud is all the time bound to intend.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.06.18 20:02:00 -
[15]
Originally by: gfldex
There is only one way to learn the docking fee and that is to try to dock there.
It's a 0.0 outpost, what do you think they're gonna do? "Ah, you're neutral to us and may be an enemy scout/spy, please come and feel free to dock at our outpost!"
Seriously, if you're not blue to the alliance holding the outpost, it's safe to assume you won't be able to complete the courier mission. That still leaves the courier contract a perfectly valid option for the thousands of players who are blue to that alliance (or are in that alliance).
FREE! jumpclone service: Forum thread|Podlog |
Andres Talas
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Posted - 2009.06.18 22:08:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Durzel
On the plus side you went to 0.0 and escaped a gate camp which is more than some people who have been playing the game for years have managed to do.
QFT. Has the OP thought about a career as a smuggler, running Navy Ammo, Nanite Paste and high-end mins into NPC 0.0 space ? |
Xiao LoPan
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Posted - 2009.06.18 23:25:00 -
[17]
a good rule of thumb is,
If it involves another pilot you don't know it is probably a scam, if you add low sec or 0.0 to that it is almost certainly a scam, if it involves people from your corp or alliance that you have been flying with for a while, still could be a scam.
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ThaDollaGenerale
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.19 06:08:00 -
[18]
I made 500 m off this kind of scam yesterday.
We also managed to pod the guy that was doing the courier mission.
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ZardoZ RadiX
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.06.19 23:28:00 -
[19]
Scammers should be ashamed  , scaming noobs is like taking candy from children... ...
Now, greed scams are another matter. Actually, most scams prey on peoples greed don't they?... 
"The only time you have to much ammo is when you're on fire." |
Tranka Verrane
Public Venture Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.06.20 11:33:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Estel Arador
You think too much. Just like last month when you decided what I meant you're completely off the mark.
I stand by that, although this is the wrong place to argue the point. I still think you were being misleading in what you said.
Quote:
Where is the "lying, deceiving, stealing, or generally taking money from people under false pretences" in this?
It is deceiving in that it is taking advantage of new players lack of knowledge deliberately. If I sell you a car I know is about to fall down and you don't get it checked out because you are naive about such things am I scamming you? It might be 'buyer beware' legally but I would maintain that it is still a scam. There is still the intent to deceive, and that is what makes the difference. It is still possible, as in this case, that I did not know it was about to do so, but the fact is that in the majority of such cases the sellers are all too aware.
There is a practice of doing this as a scam as you well know and as evidenced above, and it is ridiculous to maintain it should not ever be discussed as a scam.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.06.20 16:10:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tranka Verrane
It is deceiving in that it is taking advantage of new players lack of knowledge deliberately.
For this to be true the contract would have to be specifically targeted at new players, but contracts aren't targeted to specific groups. They're available to anyone and everyone, including people who can successfully complete the contract, people who know to stay clear, and people who are new. Should the contract not be made at all because some of the potential couriers might not know exactly what it entails, even though most do? |
F'nog
Amarr
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2009.06.20 23:51:00 -
[22]
The only time Tranka might have a leg to stand on is if the contract is made in one of the starter systems. And even then it's a pretty grey area.
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Originally by: Chribba
Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero!  /me bows
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Tranka Verrane
Public Venture Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.06.21 12:34:00 -
[23]
You guys still aren't getting my point. It is scamming if they are hoping for foolish people who can't deliver, and not if they aren't, though if that were the case likely they would have made it an alliance contract. But you are still acting as if the accusation of scammer is one that needs to be defended against.
Scamming is a legitimate tactic in Eve. People need to know how they work and hence it is counter-productive, particularly in this forum, to assume things are not scams. We should be helping people spot them, not arguing about whether they were set with malice or not.
Player Since 2005
Over 4000 hours logged
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2009.06.22 03:45:00 -
[24]
It's not often I disagree with Estel, or F'Nog, let alone both at once, but.....
It's entirely possible that this was setup as a scam. If the contract originator set this up with the intent that someone would unknowingly pick up the contract and lose their ISK, then it's a perfectly legitimate scam within the game rules.
If the contract originator didn't intend random players to pick it up, then it's not a scam.
Since we can't read the contract originator's mind we'll never know for sure. We'll just have to live with the possibility that it might have been.
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F'nog
Amarr
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2009.06.22 04:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Baka Lakadaka
It's not often I disagree with Estel, or F'Nog, let alone both at once, but.....
It's entirely possible that this was setup as a scam. If the contract originator set this up with the intent that someone would unknowingly pick up the contract and lose their ISK, then it's a perfectly legitimate scam within the game rules.
If the contract originator didn't intend random players to pick it up, then it's not a scam.
Since we can't read the contract originator's mind we'll never know for sure. We'll just have to live with the possibility that it might have been.
I totally agree with you. My original point was that unless it's put up in a starter system you can't really tell if it's a scam or not. If it's in a starter system, it probably is a scam since it's targeted at newbies who wouldn't know any better.
That's why new players need to learn to check on the destination thoroughly before accepting a contract. That way they avoid both scams and contracts they simply aren't prepared to handle.
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Originally by: Chribba
Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.06.22 12:13:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tranka Verrane
You guys still aren't getting my point. It is scamming if they are hoping for foolish people who can't deliver (...)
I do get your point, I just disagree strongly with you. Try to get your head around that. If someone says something contrary to your opinion that's not necessarily because they "meant something else" or "don't get it", it might also simply be that they disagree.
You claim that I'm acting as if scammers need defending, but you've got it the wrong way around. I'm defending perfectly honest traders against a false accusation of scamming (even though it is allowed by game rules it still has a negative impact on one's reputation).
Moreover, I'm attacking you for your utter lack of clarity on what's a scam. You've defined it, but refused to use your own definition instead preferring to use ad-hoc reasoning to come to whatever conclusion you prefer. Notice how you went from defining scams by deliberate actions ("exploiting your lack of research" [post 2] and "deceiving" [post 7]) to defining it by intent ("intent to deceive" [post 20]) to defining it by possible outcomes ("hoping for foolish people" [post 23]). |
Mike Seary
Minmatar
Minmatar Industrial Limited
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Posted - 2009.06.22 20:19:00 -
[27]
ITT: semantic arguments |
Tranka Verrane
Public Venture Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.06.23 00:46:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Estel Arador
If someone says something contrary to your opinion that's not necessarily because they "meant something else" or "don't get it", it might also simply be that they disagree.
Jeez Louise how many times do you expect me to apologise for an attempt to clarify a point you made in which I was agreeing with you, done for the benefit of a new player who had misunderstood? Do you just like to argue?
And deliberate actions are done with intent, that is just a syllogistic synonym, so I don't quite get the point you are trying to make there. I'm not going to go over my points yet again to argue with you when you seem to have some odd vendetta against me for some reason. Wardec me if you have a problem but give this a rest.
Player Since 2005
Over 4000 hours logged
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.06.23 08:03:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tranka Verrane
And deliberate actions are done with intent, that is just a syllogistic synonym, so I don't quite get the point you are trying to make there.
The difference between "deceiving" and "intent to deceive" (apart from the former including the latter) is that for "deceiving" to be true the deception has to be carried out correctly while "intent to deceive" can be true even if no serious effort is made. It's semantics, but it makes all the difference. In the specific case of the courier contract this thread started with, there is no deception at all since all information is accurately available beforehand, so with "deceiving" as the definition it's not a scam. Now if you suddenly change the definition to "intent to deceive" it might have been a scam, or it might not have been. That vagueness makes it an almost useless definition.
Does that make my point clear? |
Tranka Verrane
Public Venture Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.06.23 10:37:00 -
[30]
This is going to be my last post on this thread because this is going nowhere. F'nog I take your point and agree with it, hence my lack of dissent.
Estel the reason I keep repeating my assertion that you haven't got it is you keep talking semantics and haven't dealt with the relevant part. You act like a barrack-room lawyer trying to win an argument by shouting down all relevant discussion and seizing upon a pedantic point of order. You sound like you are conducting the case for the defence of something I don't personally feel is worth defending. I had previously found you to be altruistic and helpful but I fail to see where this line is helping anyone, except scammers themselves.
To the OP; get in touch with the contract owner and explain the situation and ask if he wants his stuff back so he can recontract it. As I said in the original post although this is becoming standard scam practise the situation you outline is quite possibly a genuine courier. At least then you will know for sure.
Player Since 2005
Over 4000 hours logged
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