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Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2009.06.20 00:24:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Ephemeron
HICs were introduced with the purpose of titan/mothership tackling. At least it was one of their intended roles. HICs are still the best tools for killing a titan. Usually HICs can take 2 DDD, but with 3+ they die.
If HICs could have some kind of immunity or strong resistance to DDD, you'd see a lot more titan deaths. Still, even with that, the production rate of titans would greatly exceed losses.
Another major factor in titan proliferation is their ability to fit cloaking devices. If they were unable to cloak, they would be used less often, more strategically, and of course, end up dying slightly more often.
Still, that would not stop the inevitable overflow of titans, where their numbers keep increasing almost unchecked. The day when titan fleet will be able to destroy a cap fleet will be a major turning point in fleet dynamics. I'm not sure CCP fully understands just how important those changes will be. But Goons, PL, and many other experienced people are trying to give them a hint.
Inability to cloak would provide much greater risk in titan deployments, I agree. Sadly we would just not like that risk and do what we always do: bring more.
As for Titans killing capital fleets, I agree it would majorly impact dynamics. BUT ... first of all the cluster dying over such an event would be a much bigger wakeup call to CCP then people actually doing it, and secondly I sometimes am not so sure whether that really is such a bad thing.
In principle that is. Capitals are the new battleships, just like once upon a time cruisers were the new "battleships". Considering how really twisted the levels of income are on an organisational level from the X64 trees I sometimes wonder whether it would really be a bad thing if they had to spend all that ISK on new dread replacements the way a few years ago it went into battleship replacements in the light of some mass capital kill method.
As for the PR stunts of doomsdaying a carrier with 27 titans, claiming to do it as a wake up call to show CCP "how bad it is", I got to say I take that with more then just a grain of salt :P
First of all we do that kind of stuff because we can. Secondly "how bad it is" is not stopping anyone from investing harder and faster in new builds and acquisitions.
It's like how people's perspectives on titans change with the eb and flow of conflict. When times are tough it's bad, when times are juicy the protests die out, or become token ludicrous stunts :P
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Thebro Nobrunder
Schrodinger's Renegades
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Posted - 2009.06.20 00:37:00 -
[32]
As to a dedicated anti titan weapon... isn't that what dreads are supposed to be (no matter how bad they are at it?)
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Agent Known
Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.06.20 01:39:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder
As to a dedicated anti titan weapon... isn't that what dreads are supposed to be (no matter how bad they are at it?)
Dreads were made for sieging POSs and stuff like that I guess...although they can take a bit more punishment than a HIC could with doomsdays.
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Admiral IceBlock
Caldari
Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.06.20 02:01:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Ferdio Ricotez
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder
I definitely think eve needs more double D's 
Actually, it's triple D (DoomsDay Device)
Also, isn't this just tank rushing? I mean, if you play GDI in CnC you can just as well build 100 Mammoth tanks, and have a pwnage army, instead of a great mix of all types of infantry and units. I wouldn'd advice that for the Nod, though. Their units tend to easily fall apart when in tank rushes.
Maybe the DDD should just hit the fitting Titan itself extra hard?
Are you ******ed or just very high? What do you think NOD has when GDI has been sittting and building 100 mammoth? 
Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.06.20 02:20:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ephemeron
If HICs could have some kind of immunity or strong resistance to DDD, you'd see a lot more titan deaths. Still, even with that, the production rate of titans would greatly exceed losses.
To be effective you'd need nano hics that could go at least 3-4km/s or ceptors with something like 99% resists to that dd dmg type.
Hics rarely get a point on a titan, as hics are too slow. A suicidal dictor setup for speed probably has a better shot at the initial tackle unless the titan is warped into a sucker bubble.
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Hellspawn666
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
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Posted - 2009.06.20 02:23:00 -
[36]
Seems to me that you should get rid of cloaking devices for any capitals since it heavily removes the need for a foothold in a system when you can cyno in a bunch of carriers/ms/titans and scatter them with cloaking devices.
Also why not introduce a ship specific module that blocks doomsdays, make it so you can only fit it on say command ships since HICs get primary enough as it is. This module would stop any titan doomsdaying but everyone on the field can see who is doing so. This way the enemy has to field some kind of support gang and it prevents just fielding swarms of capitals. Since if the enemy has any decent logistics then you'd find it impossible to doomsday. Dont nurf the doomsday itself but instead enable a counter-meassure. But for pitys sake dont let capitals be the counter measure :)
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Teras Menac
Gallente
Caldari POS Constructions Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.20 06:28:00 -
[37]
Originally by: jst tstng
Rock Paper Shotgun.
In other words, a new ship or ships. A designated titan killer. It doesnt need to be bigger just specialized to be a big problem for titans and can rock paper scissored by something already in game.
What about a Doomsday Jammer of some kind? Something that takes a high-slot and a ridiculous amount of powergrid so that it's hard to fit much gank onto the ship that it's fit to. Or like you said a Titan killer, maybe some kind of dedicated E-War Dreadnaut.
I also like the idea of the Titan doing damage to its own logistics.
Maybe make the Doomsday use the same fuel as the Jump Drive so if you use it you have to refuel it before you can jump again.
Have it do damage to the Titan itself. I don't know if it already does this, I haven't flown a Titan.
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EnslaverOfMinmatar
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.06.20 06:29:00 -
[38]
Nerf titans
uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ
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Veveritz
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.06.20 06:34:00 -
[39]
Buff titans a bit and remove the doomsday
It's getting boring really fast when somebody can double / triple doomsday you
Or make it that you can only fire 1 doomsday per day in 1 system.
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Teras Menac
Gallente
Caldari POS Constructions Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.20 06:44:00 -
[40]
What about Titan's having some kind of unique cyno so that it shows up on the overview as a "Titan's Cyno". That way the Titan requires a fleet just to protect it's Cyno.
Pardon my ignorance if it already behaves this way. |
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KiloAlpha
Southern Cross Trilogy
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Posted - 2009.06.20 08:07:00 -
[41]
Originally by: jst tstng
Rock Paper Shotgun.
In other words, a new ship or ships. A designated titan killer. It doesnt need to be bigger just specialized to be a big problem for titans and can rock paper scissored by something already in game.
we already have a titan killer its called a dreadnaught |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.20 09:21:00 -
[42]
Cloaks should not work on capital ships period.
At the very least, the decloak range should be increased to the ships' sig radius. One Titan description says that they're so massive that they can affect tides - how the hell do you hide that with a cloaking device that you can fit on a tier 1 frigate?
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.20 09:26:00 -
[43]
Even if you add a new ship which can withstand 27 doomsdays and then tackle a titan + proceed to kill it without backup except some other ships from its class, then still titans wouldnt die. The only result would be that motherships get a role, which would be protecting the titans from them, and they can actually survive the doomsdays from the friendly titans. So then we created super-capitals online.
The only good solution i can think of is completely changing the role of the titan. Imo what still is the best way to go is changing it more into a mobile station. Give it ability to hold huge (=100+ or something like that) ammount of clones and battleship. Give it repair facilities, maybe even a small force field arround it (would be needed when you add repair facilities, so people can just keep pressing the repair button when they are under attack at a titan, either they be in the forcefield and can only repair, or they are outside it and cant repair). Then they are definately usefull (everytime someone is killed he is back within 5 minutes in a new battleship). But they dont have the huge flaw they have now. Whatever you are going to do, it is just very bad game design:
Who exactly thought adding a button which when pressed kills everyone (in case of single titan everyone in BC/hac and smaller) on grid without anything they can do besides running was a good idea.
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Raneru
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2009.06.20 13:10:00 -
[44]
I posted 2 years ago about the problems with DD. As a non cap pilot, you spend ages setting up your bs for an epic fight and moving it to the op start point. Then you spend ages travelling xx jumps in fleet to get to the dest only to have 1 or 2 guys warp in at long range and click 1 module to undo all the preparation.
Don't people have epic 0.0 fleet BS fights like back in the day anymore? It all seems to be cap fights and pos takedowns nowadays 
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Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2009.06.20 13:15:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Even if you add a new ship which can withstand 27 doomsdays and then tackle a titan + proceed to kill it without backup except some other ships from its class, then still titans wouldnt die. The only result would be that motherships get a role, which would be protecting the titans from them, and they can actually survive the doomsdays from the friendly titans. So then we created super-capitals online.
The only good solution i can think of is completely changing the role of the titan. Imo what still is the best way to go is changing it more into a mobile station. Give it ability to hold huge (=100+ or something like that) ammount of clones and battleship. Give it repair facilities, maybe even a small force field arround it (would be needed when you add repair facilities, so people can just keep pressing the repair button when they are under attack at a titan, either they be in the forcefield and can only repair, or they are outside it and cant repair). Then they are definately usefull (everytime someone is killed he is back within 5 minutes in a new battleship). But they dont have the huge flaw they have now. Whatever you are going to do, it is just very bad game design:
Who exactly thought adding a button which when pressed kills everyone (in case of single titan everyone in BC/hac and smaller) on grid without anything they can do besides running was a good idea.
What exactly is the role of a Titan. By intention it is a ship to provide massive fleet bonuses, a supporting tool in mobility, logistical support, and an anti blob discouragement tool.
In practice very little of that is left standing.
Jump portal is nice, for fleet mobility. Its role of general logistics has faded away, since it has to compete with much cheaper and much more readily available alternatives.
Its own capacity for logistics is really a joke, taking into account normal fleet operations it has basically no room to properly serve as a point of ship replacements on the field, nor can it compete with a multitude of cheaper tools for logistics of resources like strontium or ammo or fuel.
Fleet bonuses are really nice, but because of the value of the ship and EVE's built in support for metagaming Titans are best kept outside of the main fleet :P Very often even in a POS with the shields closed to even own alliance members :P
As a blob discouragement they do work. No fleet runs around without being cautious of a hotdrop or a trap on a gate or at a pos. That is good. No really, that IS good, because we know what we do if we do not have to be careful. We make conventional ship blobbing and node lagging military doctrine.
Like I said earlier, we still need the risk and danger of a doomsday. We just also need doomsdays to cause fallout and come at a price for those who use them.
You are right that there is no feasible other role for a titan but being a glass cannon. There is neither support nor incentive to use it for much else.
I like the idea of a remote repair effect, but that is very close to an area effect. I like that, because it would open up a lot of options in general to field specialty ships. Not just Titans. I am not sure however if CCP are fond of taking this angle.
Personally I think the moment we have to think twice about throwing doomsdays around because they hurt us and our stuff, and not just the target, is the moment we will see the structural part of the problem disappear. At that point it would be nice to have reasons to use the ships for other purposes.
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Havohej
Minmatar
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
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Posted - 2009.06.20 13:28:00 -
[46]
Originally by: iP0D
looking at the latest lolDDcarrierkill hilarity you wonder how real people really are about their "opinions". Sure .. titans are bad, don't mind we just put a bid on two more and ordered 5 more components batches :P
You expect people to not accumulate all the titans they can in the meantime, just because they know titans are broken? So that their enemies can continue accumulating titans and have all the advantages for themselves? That would be stupid. EVE isn't the game for e-honor and trusting your opponent to be equally conscious of doing the right thing. Until it's fixed, existing powers should continue piling up titan after titan and should continue lighting as many DDs on one grid as possible until CCP is forced to admit that making ISK and skill training time the only gate to getting these things was a mistake, to admit that they should have - but didn't - see this coming, and finally do something about it.
One titan isn't insurmountable, neither is two... 27? |
Newsflash
Gallente
NorthUnited
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Posted - 2009.06.20 13:29:00 -
[47]
firstly: titans ARE overpowered. secondly: its ****ing ridiculous that something size of a station can cloak.. |
Jamyl TashMurkon
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.06.20 13:31:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Newsflash
firstly: titans ARE overpowered. secondly: its ****ing ridiculous that something size of a station can cloak..
no? |
Newsflash
Gallente
NorthUnited
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Posted - 2009.06.20 13:35:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Jamyl TashMurkon
Originally by: Newsflash
firstly: titans ARE overpowered. secondly: its ****ing ridiculous that something size of a station can cloak..
no?
no? you are clueless or part of pandemc legion or whoever haves most of titans atm... i hope ccp does something soon to nerf these gamebreakers. |
Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2009.06.20 14:12:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Dragon Greg
As a blob discouragement they do work. No fleet runs around without being cautious of a hotdrop or a trap on a gate or at a pos. That is good. No really, that IS good, because we know what we do if we do not have to be careful. We make conventional ship blobbing and node lagging military doctrine.
Not really--they just raise the bar a bit, creating blobs of HIC's and battleships with doomsday tanks. The only ones who really suffer are newer players in sub-BS ships, who can have their ability to play the game switched off with a single button press.
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Grath Telkin
Amarr
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.20 16:07:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Newsflash
Originally by: Jamyl TashMurkon
Originally by: Newsflash
firstly: titans ARE overpowered. secondly: its ****ing ridiculous that something size of a station can cloak..
no?
no? you are clueless or part of pandemc legion or whoever haves most of titans atm... i hope ccp does something soon to nerf these gamebreakers.
WOAH THERE FELLA |
Bestofworst
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.20 16:15:00 -
[52]
Give back an epic feeling to Titans, give them strong tank and (visually) millions of small guns firing off it's hull. Titan if anything should be something that bolsters the forces, like a moral lift, rather than just wipe out the opposition. |
iP0D
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Posted - 2009.06.20 22:50:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Havohej
Originally by: iP0D
looking at the latest lolDDcarrierkill hilarity you wonder how real people really are about their "opinions". Sure .. titans are bad, don't mind we just put a bid on two more and ordered 5 more components batches :P
You expect people to not accumulate all the titans they can in the meantime, just because they know titans are broken? So that their enemies can continue accumulating titans and have all the advantages for themselves? That would be stupid. EVE isn't the game for e-honor and trusting your opponent to be equally conscious of doing the right thing. Until it's fixed, existing powers should continue piling up titan after titan and should continue lighting as many DDs on one grid as possible until CCP is forced to admit that making ISK and skill training time the only gate to getting these things was a mistake, to admit that they should have - but didn't - see this coming, and finally do something about it.
One titan isn't insurmountable, neither is two... 27?
You're right. It is an arms race. It's just funny to see how some try to pass themselves off as the ones who will lead the charge to change titans. |
Biolaja Tista
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2009.06.20 22:54:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Biolaja Tista on 20/06/2009 22:56:07
Quote:
Another day, another world ending disaster.
_________________
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Armoured C
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.20 22:58:00 -
[55]
titans arnt broken
the amount of isk in game is broken ,
if the amount of isk was the same when the first few titans were made there wouldn't be many titans.
you can easily see it is the amount of isk in game that is the problem when one man can fund a titan in which should be a alliance effort.
JOIN FOFF NOW CHAT CHANNEL FOR MORE INFO
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Armoured C
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.20 22:59:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Armoured C on 20/06/2009 22:59:50
titans arnt broken
the amount of isk in game is broken ,
if the amount of isk was the same when the first few titans were made there wouldn't be many titans.
you can easily see it is the amount of isk in game that is the problem when one man can fund a titan in which should be a alliance effort.
in my opinion it is not titans that is broken but empire itself
JOIN FOFF NOW CHAT CHANNEL FOR MORE INFO
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.21 00:09:00 -
[57]
I dont know a single person in-game who doesn't thing DDD are going to be nerfed.
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Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2009.06.21 01:13:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Ausser
We just buff the DDD to deal 1.000.000.000 dmg on each ignition.
Now the titans will kill eachother untill only one is left.
Problem solved. Profit. 
First I thought this was a stupid idea because then you could just hotdrop dread fleets with 1 Titan and kill everyone, making POS warfare very difficult. But then it occurred to me that the Titan could destroy itself too when DD'ing. So, let's do this. ;-)
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Smooth Kitty
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Posted - 2009.06.21 02:13:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Armoured C
Edited by: Armoured C on 20/06/2009 22:59:50
titans arnt broken
the amount of isk in game is broken ,
if the amount of isk was the same when the first few titans were made there wouldn't be many titans.
...
This but for different reasons.
It's rather silly that a few alliances can have a separate dread fleet in every corner of eve, massive and safe (Sov 4) supercap production, capital giveaways to member, and still can't spend all the isk they generate from their moons. Seems the only way to bring down an established alliance now days is to infiltrate them or turn one of their trusted members.
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Bestofworst
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.21 02:29:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Smooth Kitty
Originally by: Armoured C
Edited by: Armoured C on 20/06/2009 22:59:50
titans arnt broken
the amount of isk in game is broken ,
if the amount of isk was the same when the first few titans were made there wouldn't be many titans.
...
This but for different reasons.
It's rather silly that a few alliances can have a separate dread fleet in every corner of eve, massive and safe (Sov 4) supercap production, capital giveaways to member, and still can't spend all the isk they generate from their moons. Seems the only way to bring down an established alliance now days is to infiltrate them or turn one of their trusted members.
We need natural disasters, wormholes opening up ontop of a POS, sucking everything in it, moons dysncing out of orbit and drifting off (from a meteor hit or something)
But that is all I can think of, but I would hate a random factor be the chance of victory, but it's always better to attack a city recovering from a natural disaster.
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My Music |
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