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Luba Love	Posted - 2009.06.21 05:06:00 - [1] Edited by: Luba Love on 21/06/2009 05:06:35 Anyone ever saw anything remotely effective to counter this pest? Why doesnt CCP use something along the lines of PunkBuster?
Jobby Minmatar UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2009.06.21 05:24:00 - [2] Originally by: Luba Love Edited by: Luba Love on 21/06/2009 05:06:35 Anyone ever saw anything remotely effective to counter this pest? Why doesnt CCP use something along the lines of PunkBuster? Can you be a little more vague, please? I've got a bet going, and I reckon it is technically possible for you to be more vague.
Luba Love	Posted - 2009.06.21 05:33:00 - [3] Originally by: Jobby ... If I m not your friend, google will be.
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.06.21 05:43:00 - [4] Report the char, move on, don't get worked up. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.21 05:45:00 - [5] Quote: Major Features in PunkBusterÖ (some editions of PunkBusterÖ do not have all of these features) * Real-time scanning of memory by PB Client on players' computers searching for known hacks/cheats * Throttled two-tiered background auto-update system using multiple Internet Master Servers to provide end-user security ensuring that no false or corrupted updates can be installed on players' computers * Frequent status reports (highly encrypted) are sent to the PB Server by all players and the PB Server raises a violation when necessary which causes the offending player to be removed from the game and all other players are informed of the violation * PB Admins can also manually remove players from the game for a specified number of minutes or permanently ban if desired * PB Servers can optionally be configured to randomly check player settings looking for known exploits of the game engine * PB Admins can request actual screenshot samples from specific players and/or can configure the PB Server to randomly grab screenshot samples from players during gameplay * An optional "bad name" facility is provided so that PB Admins can prevent players from using offensive player names containing unwanted profanity or racial slurs * Search functions are provided for PB Admins who wish to search player's keybindings and scripts for anything that may be known to exploit the game * The PunkBusterÖ Player Power facility can be configured to allow players to self-administer game servers when the Server Administrator is not present entirely without the need for passwords * PB Servers have an optional built-in mini http web server interface that allows the game server to be remotely administered via a web browser from anywhere over the Internet Can you find something a bit more intrusive, prone to abuse and giving more access to interested hackers? That thing can work in a first person shooter whre characters aren't permanent, not in a game like EVE.
Luba Love	Posted - 2009.06.21 06:21:00 - [6] Originally by: Venkul Mul ... Agreed. Do you have any other suggestions tho? Are you generally opposed to protection schemes involving direct monitoring of local client memory/adress space for incrusions by 3rd party software? I see no other feasable long term solutions to the problem othe rthan that typeothing.
Ninja Otaku Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.06.21 06:30:00 - [7] Ah, I say this every time now, no matter witch MMO I drift too... Hackers / Spammers / IGC Sellers / Bots / Macros All of these horrible things infest every single MMO. What people haven't come to the realization yet is that they are like an inoperable tumor, that is not terminal. There is a symbiotic relationship between the afk botters and MMO's. You can implement any sort of action against to them, and they adapt. The Epic Fail (Just aspoladed an Indy) Ninja: "Sir, Permission to 'yar' in local." Boss: "Permission granted." Ninja: "YAT!" Boss and just about the entire local community: "FAIL!"
Luba Love	Posted - 2009.06.21 06:48:00 - [8] Originally by: Ninja Otaku ... Yes. But. It will remove the casual macroer as well as the intermediate ones. The hardcore botters and hackers will always be a step ahead but the real numbers are represented by mostly those that have small to non existant programming skills. And. Why make it easy for them?
Alxea	Posted - 2009.06.21 07:11:00 - [9] Originally by: Luba Love Originally by: Venkul Mul ... Really, Great idea!
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.06.21 07:16:00 - [10] Originally by: Luba Love Originally by: Venkul Mul ... Agreed. Do you have any other suggestions tho? Are you generally opposed to protection schemes involving direct monitoring of local client memory/adress space for incrusions by 3rd party software? I see no other feasable long term solutions to the problem othe rthan that typeothing. A game that needs macros to be a "successful" player has a huge design flaw. Macros only arise because of game-design flaws. If you remove those design flaws, then you will remove automatically the need and the usage of macros. If mining is boring, repetitive and mindlessly dumb, then it is sure that macros will sooner or later arise. If courier missions are boring, repetitive and mindlessly dumb, then sooner or later macros will appear etc. etc. Solution for mining: Introduce some sort of mini-game like we have with scanning these days so that you need to find the good minerals spots in a roid which you can then quickly mine. Make the mining process itself less boring and more puzzle-like with interaction and thinking. Macrominig will be then gone the same moment you introduce something like above outlined. No need AT ALL for some ** **** rootkit on my comp to scan for 3rd party software.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.06.21 07:17:00 - [11] Originally by: Luba Love Why make it easy for them? "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few..." EVE is already more than prone to crashes and erratic behaviour without having some uber-intrusive anti-macro software slapped onto it. EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Ninja Otaku Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.06.21 07:17:00 - [12] Originally by: Luba Love Originally by: Ninja Otaku ... ... What in the world gives you the idea that the people botting, even casualy, cannot adapt? Quick story. Once upon a time, someone created a cheat for a game, then distributed it for free across the net for others to join in on his fun. I experienced this the one and only time i ever cheated in a game. Back in the days of 1.6 CS, it took us all but 5 minutes, (literally we stop watched timed it) from scratch to hax for everything website, for every game imaginable. We messed around with cheats on lan for about an hour, got bored and I haven't touched them since. The point I'm making is this: They will ALL adapt. In the same way freeware is distributed to help PC users, so will there be people distributing freeware to harm PC users. This idea that some implementation of some anti-cheating / hacking / botting mechanism will weed out the majority of said individuals is ludicrous. Unfortunate, but True. And it pains me to say it. The Epic Fail (Just aspoladed an Indy) Ninja: "Sir, Permission to 'yar' in local." Boss: "Permission granted." Ninja: "YAT!" Boss and just about the entire local community: "FAIL!"
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.21 07:43:00 - [13] Quote: ...symbiotic relationship... No, parasitic certainly but not symbiotic.
Xtreem Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc. Exxxotic	Posted - 2009.06.21 09:22:00 - [14] just gank them all, i do
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.06.21 10:00:00 - [15] Campaign for players to be restricted less for dealing with them. Every change in hi-sec for the last 2 years has benefited bot/sweatshop farmers relatively more than anyone else.
MultiTrack Drifting	Posted - 2009.06.21 11:20:00 - [16] Originally by: Luba Love Edited by: Luba Love on 21/06/2009 05:06:35 Anyone ever saw anything remotely effective to counter this pest? Why doesnt CCP use something along the lines of PunkBuster? Macro's don't work like cheats they don't modify anything in the game, most of them are just a program running in the background controlling the mouse and it identifies what it is supposed to click by looking at the color on the screen. Not sure if CCP monitors the processes you run while you play eve, in any case they wouldn't be able to tell (with 100% certainty!) the difference between a macro program and your mp3 player.
Forge Lag Jita Lag Preservation Fund	Posted - 2009.06.21 11:56:00 - [17] Edited by: Forge Lag on 21/06/2009 11:57:53 Why in MMOs it is more rewarding to repeat simple mindless task ad nauseum in the name of progress than to actually have fun playing at the very moment? Adress that and you stomp on bots. EvE has hardly issues with hacks. It is very prone to botting though. Those two are different. Have you ever double boxed? Have you ever gone afk while in mission/mining? Learn to live with bots then. CCP does not do anything because people are willing to pay extra for MMOs to be bot prone. They will go after the symptoms but never the cause.
Baron Aethon Ostium Orci	Posted - 2009.06.21 12:02:00 - [18] Edited by: Baron Aethon on 21/06/2009 12:04:36 Let me play devil's advocate here. I will start by saying that I do not Macro anything, I don't even have one of those cool keyboards with Macro keys. I used to play with Micro Machines as a kid, but that is a different therapy session. Say CCP invented the MACROBUSTER2000. It is awesome, It can unobtrusively detect Macro ratters, Macro Miners, Macro Haulers and if that crazy guy with 5 accounts really does have the ability to .01 isk every market order in Jita. What do you think the end result would be. My prediction, as a semi-well educated person with an accounting/microeconomics background and also a background in social behavior of the malfeasance nature would be: 1) Within 4 weeks, Tritanium would hit 6.5isk. 2) Within 6 weeks, T1 ships would double in price, T1 modules would double in price. 3) Within 8 weeks, Ice product prices will quadruple. Miners will move to Ice mining out of corp/alliance obligation and profit. 4) Within 10 weeks, Trit hits 10 isk. Markets become prone to localized large mining corp manipulation. 5) Within 12 weeks, Production of moon reactions grind to a halt on low ends, Fuel costs too much. High End prices double. 5.5) Within 13 weeks, T2 Markets collapse into the similar nature T3 markets pre-boost were. 6) Within 14 weeks, Already semi-empty 0.0 becomes almost barren as all industrialists flock to empire to take advantage of insane profits to be made on ships, mods and Trit/Ice mining. 7) Within 26 weeks, Markets stabilize to near present day levels after unprecedented shift in game to industrialization and subsequent decrease in PVP. The end result. Your Trit is still going to be worth the same, there will not be any more of it for you to mine. Ice will still be worthless and empire will be just as filled as it is now. But your dreaded Macro Miners will be gone, more "human" miners will take their place. And your PVP friends will complain that there are now even more carebears in the game. The game will be no different in the end, except a 6 month complete cluster**** that was created when the only market stabalizing force in the game is removed.
Forge Lag Jita Lag Preservation Fund	Posted - 2009.06.21 12:10:00 - [19] Interesting, so the market is the same when you halve (or much worse) the production. Very interesting. Prices might be the same. Wealth and inflation not at all. You are basically saying that PvPers live off the bots.
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.06.21 12:21:00 - [20] ..which is the main reason I think CCP do nothing about bots. If they made mining more interactive, less repetitive and interesting things may be different. If bots are removed the market will go nuts. But that's tough luck, CCP allowed that. Its the same as the ISK spammers though. In another game I played I used a simple legal mod to filter them with 100% effectiveness. Why CCP do not do this I don't know. That game (when they said nothing could be done and many posters did too) after a few years player pressure, eventually implemented anti spam on the server end and it worked perfectly. Spam gone, all of it. There is no excuse at all for any MMO to have BOTs or spam. MMOS' have sorted these problems, to say they can't be fixed is simply wrong and I do not understand why some players really believe they cannot be severely hampered and even stopped. This is 2009 and this technology is well advanced. If anything stops me from playing EVE it will be cheats, bots and spammers. There is obviously a reason they are ignored.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.06.21 12:26:00 - [21] Long story short: Computer crashed as i opened a certain client with Warden in it. Tried to boot up, Bluescreen on loading windows. It had corrupted my RAM, and i lost countless hours of data that i had been working on (Even though it had been saved, everything on the RAM at the time got corrupted, whole files/programs). Plus the need for a new 2gig stick of 1066mhz ram wasn't exactly something i enjoyed either. ___________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Ninja Otaku Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.06.21 12:59:00 - [22] Originally by: Barbara Nichole Quote: ...symbiotic relationship... No, parasitic certainly but not symbiotic. a. the living together of two dissimilar organisms, as in mutualism, commensalism, amensalism, or parasitism. Sorry, but BIG pet peeve of mine is calling out those who would attempt and fail to correct my grammar, spelling, and word use. The Epic Fail (Just aspoladed an Indy) Ninja: "Sir, Permission to 'yar' in local." Boss: "Permission granted." Ninja: "YAT!" Boss and just about the entire local community: "FAIL!"
Baron Aethon Ostium Orci	Posted - 2009.06.21 13:09:00 - [23] Originally by: Forge Lag Interesting, so the market is the same when you halve (or much worse) the production. Very interesting. Prices might be the same. Wealth and inflation not at all. You are basically saying that PvPers live off the bots. But that is where you are wrong. Macro Miners do not produce anything. They collect Ore. They are 100% suppliers of raw materials, they do not build ships, they do not consume ships. They are a faucet of minerals from which the rest of this game runs. Maybe not as much in the ore market, but I am willing to bet my next paycheck Macro Miners account for 80% of Basic Ice Product in Eve. I think you overestimate their influence, but underestimate their numbers. And yes, PvPers live off cheap ships, hence they live off Macro Miners. This can be seen more so in 0.0 where tower spam would be impossible if Isotopes were at 800isk a unit.
Alt Tabbed	Posted - 2009.06.21 13:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Zartanic ..which is the main reason I think CCP do nothing about bots. If they made mining more interactive, less repetitive and interesting things may be different. If bots are removed the market will go nuts. But that's tough luck, CCP allowed that. Its the same as the ISK spammers though. In another game I played I used a simple legal mod to filter them with 100% effectiveness. Why CCP do not do this I don't know. CCP does not offer a LUA interface or an API for mods. This would be the reason why there are no "legal mods". Originally by: Zartanic That game (when they said nothing could be done and many posters did too) after a few years player pressure, eventually implemented anti spam on the server end and it worked perfectly. Spam gone, all of it. No they didn't. The made it so that as a L1 toon, you couldn't PM someone unless you were on there friends list. So instead they spammed raid invites to you, and still spammed general. Originally by: Zartanic There is no excuse at all for any MMO to have BOTs or spam. There are plenty of reasons why bots and spam exist. A reason is not an excuse. But the reason may be the excuse. Originally by: Zartanic MMOS' have sorted these problems, to say they can't be fixed is simply wrong and I do not understand why some players really believe they cannot be severely hampered and even stopped. This is 2009 and this technology is well advanced. Yes this is 2009, where 70-90% of all EMAIL in the world has been spam this year. So if in the real world we have trouble stopping it with all our new fangled technology, how are we supposed to stop it in the virtual world built on that same technology. Originally by: Zartanic If anything stops me from playing EVE it will be cheats, bots and spammers. Can I have your stuff? Originally by: Zartanic There is obviously a reason they are ignored. And what reason would you suppose is that?
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.06.21 13:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Malcanis Campaign for players to be restricted less for dealing with them. Every change in hi-sec for the last 2 years has benefited bot/sweatshop farmers relatively more than anyone else. This or add random elements to missions/mining/ratting so it's not dead easy to just make one big recorded macro of a typical routine and use it all the time.
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.06.21 13:33:00 - [26] Server side is not LUA. But the company said 'it could not be done' when the players themselves were actually doing it already with their own legal tools from LUA, a tool that took all of a 500k file and seconds to download and use. I do not get any spam in my email so thanks for pointing that out. Also your wrong how they fixed the issue, they implemented many changes. Not one of those are in EVE and not one affected game play. As to why they are happy to not only put up with it but not even use basic methods to stop it ask them, not me. All I know is that if this game grows as we all hope (actually I suspect some do not) there will be less tolerance for spam and bots. Its fine when you have niche players who are used to it but new players will think its quaint it still goes on to such a large extent. I played this game 4 years ago for several months and it has not changed at all which surprised me. Even the noob channel was spammed to hell and back, a terrible advert for this game and that was with the Ops kicking them.
Breaker77 Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.06.21 14:57:00 - [27] Originally by: MultiTrack Drifting Not sure if CCP monitors the processes you run while you play eve, in any case they wouldn't be able to tell (with 100% certainty!) the difference between a macro program and your mp3 player. That is exactly what Blizzard does with "Warden". It scans your registry and running processes while you are connected to it's servers. If it finds a known process or registry entries it will automaticlly ban the account and cd-keys. The upside is that it requires no human intervention The downside is that is has to be updated every time I new version of a hack/macro comes out. It also was known to ban people for using Microsoft Paint at one point in time. It's running process in memory had an identical signature to a known hack. An automated process like this could be modified to first send a report to CCP to monitor that account/IP address then it would be up to CCP to take care of the rest.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.	Posted - 2009.06.21 15:01:00 - [28] cant we havething like the VAC that steam uses? JOIN FOFF NOW CHAT CHANNEL FOR MORE INFO
Draeath Mayhem Brothers Tenth Legion	Posted - 2009.06.21 15:13:00 - [29] Great, so just to cozy you, all us Linux users will be screwed. No, I think I would prefer that things like PunkBuster and VAC stay away. To find/catch macros, you need to hook into the OS, since nothing can stop a macro from analyzing screen output and inserting mouse/keyboard commands. Such hooks don't work in an environment like Wine, which means those of us who depend on it are **** out of luck. Here's some reading for ya: http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9685 Glance over that, and tell me you still think PunkBuster is a fair thing to implement. -- "These people we wasted here today are the finest [capsuleers] we will ever know." "... we're gonna miss not having anyone around that's worth shooting."
Barkaial Starfinder Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.06.21 15:22:00 - [30] Those anti-hacks programs are a JOKE. Seriously...

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