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Not Well
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Posted - 2009.06.22 10:11:00 -
[1]
I am curious how other corporations handle mining. Specifically, what system do you use that encourages miners to mine, yet gets the corp minerals at a reasonable price. A miner in Empire can usually sell their minerals at market, but the corp wants it below market. How do you get around this dynamic?
Similar question with industrialists. How do you keep the good ones in corp and happy? You can guess I come from PVP world, so your insights into your world is much appreciated.
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Braaage
Ministry of Craft
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Posted - 2009.06.22 10:25:00 -
[2]
In the past corps I've been in we had a "corp mining op" whereby EVERYONE would chip in and mine for the corp and all minerals would go to the corp for building (or selling).
The corpies didn't get anything for this but it was taken that this was a requirement for being in the corp. One mining session per week is easily doable without having to consent to corpies demanding something for doing it.
As for industrialists heh well I'm gonna stop there before I bring up an old argument. |
Not Well
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Posted - 2009.06.22 10:41:00 -
[3]
The idea of a full corp activity is a nice solution, but we have always been ôno mandatory ops, we respect RL.ö Also, being active in all time zones, a mandatory 23 hour op would not go down wellà How do you normally pay the miners for the minerals if you get them from corp miners? As for the industrialists, is the old argument involve something like ôYou all want me to build stuff at cost for the corp, and then give me neither respect nor credit for my skills?
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Daveion Steel
Gallente 6thsense Corp
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Posted - 2009.06.22 12:19:00 -
[4]
One of those things really, Combat pilots get taxed for ratting, plexing or whatever they do to keep doing the things they love. PvP.
While miners do not get taxed for their primary income. It is something that has caused much debate for many years. only nulsec alliances and corps can tax miners because they can set or adjust what they take at their refining stations.
Its Hard to get it ballanced but one idea might be to agree that each miner has a qouta to fulfill per week and to contract that to the corp CEO or Director and to keep a record of who makes this qouta every week compared to those losers that are just creaming from the top and enjoying the benifits from being in your Corp without putting in the effort.
D...
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Callista Omenswarm
Starlight Industries Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.22 13:40:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Callista Omenswarm on 22/06/2009 13:40:39 The I've worked it in the past is to offer prices based off 100% refine and buy the raw ore. A lot of miners don't have the full skills and standing needed so you can offer mid-market rates and still have miners come out on top (based off buy orders) by selling to the corp.
Another system is to acrue points based off total sales to corp that go towards the corp providing free or discounted ships, crystals, modules, etc. AE's T1 BPC Store - Rigs, Ammo, Modules and Ships |
Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi
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Posted - 2009.06.22 13:46:00 -
[6]
I think a great deal of miners would be willing to sell mins to the corp at a 90% rate if there is a visible benifit to doing so. I get cheaper strip miners, ammo, and select ships for example and sell my trit at 3.6 to corp. Or maybe its just me
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Pastiche
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Posted - 2009.06.22 14:48:00 -
[7]
Over at NAI, we buy ore or minerals from our corp. members at about 90% of mineral market value. They don't have to haul, refine, etc. We do not have any required ops, however "official ops" are taxed just like PVE.
On the industrial side, we offer discounted (up to free) BPO's, ammo, ships, etc. As well as a percentage of our monthly profits as a bonus to our members.
While we don't grow as fast as we could. It keeps the requirements low and the isk for the members high. Last thing any wants is a 2nd job they have to pay $19.95 a month to have.
We do have a few members that could make more money if they did everything themselves, but I think they like to feel like they contribute, like the freebies and the companionship.
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H3llHound
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
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Posted - 2009.06.22 16:17:00 -
[8]
A nice solution is to organize weekly mining ops but make them non-mandatory but offer some privileges like haulers or an orca boost which makes mining much more fun.
Also dont forget that mining in a gang is not so boring than sitting for hours at belts with just your drones to talk to
And if it still bores the gang just head for lowsec |
Letrange
Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2009.06.22 16:29:00 -
[9]
Originally by: H3llHound A nice solution is to organize weekly mining ops but make them non-mandatory but offer some privileges like haulers or an orca boost which makes mining much more fun.
Also dont forget that mining in a gang is not so boring than sitting for hours at belts with just your drones to talk to
And if it still bores the gang just head for lowsec
Ya forgot heading into wormhole space - that can spice up the mining experience in more ways than one :) |
Beldaws
Gallente Maniac Miners
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Posted - 2009.06.22 18:23:00 -
[10]
A corporation should always buy the minerals from miners at 100% of the market value.
You are going to take their minerals and build something that makes you profit. You shouldn't be making profit from their minerals and the stuff you are building from them. That's double dipping. Sure you could just buy the minerals from the market but then you won't have happy members. Buying minerals from members below market value will always make them unhappy and end up making them leave eventually.
If you are fair with your members they will be rich and happy and they will tend to donate more of their time and isk freely for corp projects.
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Kyra Felann
Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2009.06.22 18:35:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Kyra Felann on 22/06/2009 18:38:42 Well, I had a nice informative post typed up, but the forums ate it and presented me with a nice, clean, blank, text-box instead of posting what I wrote.
Unfortunately, I really don't feel like typing it all again. These forums really need to be fixed. They're the most broken forums I've ever used.
The gist is that corps should not demand free service from members--both members and corps should find a way to benefit and profit. I'm against mandatory ops where the participants leave no richer than they started. |
HillAnt
Amarr HillAnt Corp Bunny Nation
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Posted - 2009.06.22 19:01:00 -
[12]
If your corp pays you less then the local market, they havent done their research on what to produce. There are plenty of things that can reliably sell at a 20% or more mark up. If your corp industrialists have constantly idle manufacturing slots, there is SOMETHING very wrong. |
Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.06.22 19:41:00 -
[13]
Don't forget sales tax and broker fees. Offer regional hub buy orders -3% for minerals and regional buy order -1% for ore through contracts. Explain taxes to corpies, and the need for the greater good. You could even have a higher margin if it means corpies don't have to haul to sales hubs.
There you go, instant 3%+ of everything your corpies mine. Trying to gouge 10% or more works fine in 0.0, but there simply isn't anything an empire based corp can offer to justify that much tax.
If you are providing more than 3% of services to an empire industrial corp rather than simply fattening your personal wallet you should see other opportunities to leverage economies of scale for mutual benefit.
As far as industrialists: just roll your own alts to produce with. Otherwise simply offer the purchased materials at trade hub sell order prices at a station with empty build slots.
And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question? |
Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience The Jagged Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.22 20:56:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kyra Felann Edited by: Kyra Felann on 22/06/2009 18:38:42 Well, I had a nice informative post typed up, but the forums ate it and presented me with a nice, clean, blank, text-box instead of posting what I wrote.
Unfortunately, I really don't feel like typing it all again. These forums really need to be fixed. They're the most broken forums I've ever used.
The gist is that corps should not demand free service from members--both members and corps should find a way to benefit and profit. I'm against mandatory ops where the participants leave no richer than they started.
Just press the back button on the browser and that should display the text that you wrote, worked for me in the past.
In reply to the OP, as you can tell there's no set method or even calculation New Eden wide, so it will depend entire on the corporation.
Bottom line is - if you're happy selling to the corporation at the prices set, then do so - if you're not happy as a miner selling your ore/minerals at their prices find out why you're unhappy with those prices.
They will either tell you 'Damn we haven't updated the prices this week' or 'Yeah that's the price as the isk comes out of the corp wallet and it funds our ship and module usage and market orders to gain more profit for the corporation.
If it's the later (or the former and they reduce the price/unit) then as a paying subscriber to an online game you have to ask yourself, are you happy in this type of corporation?
The pvp/industrialist row has split more than a few corporations in half and even though one character can train up for both specialists it takes a rather special person to be able to enjoy pvp and industry in equal measure.
You will always have options in this game, and sooner rather than later you're going to have to make a choice.
EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser |
Retsoow
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.06.22 21:09:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Retsoow on 22/06/2009 21:10:02 In the Corp I'm in we have 1 mining op a week and work it so that 80% goes to the corp and 20% for the miners/hualers, and if we need more ore for a project or big order etc. we mine for a set ammount of time example 3 hours and first 2 hours are for the corp and the last hour for the miners we also set up profit ops where miners/hualers/pvpers/mission runers all join in with miners and huales mining ect and the pvpers and runners guarding and split the procedes
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Nico Drebb
Reefer Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.22 21:35:00 -
[16]
Your profit needs to come out of activities that the corp provides as a whole and that individual miners might struggle to do on their own. Reducing your miners direct mining income is not the way to go.
The key is finding a way to benefit from having an army of miners at your command, without dropping their net income in comparison to working solo.
There are a number of ways to do this:-
-If you are manufacturing, you should be making equipment that would net a profit even if you purchased the minerals directly off the market. Get yourself a 10% profit on this at the very least. Your miners get paid in full and your corp profit comes from the manufacturing.
-If you are in a region that is over-mined, you can setup shop in a remote location from any local hubs in order to guarantee ore for your miners. The corp can then charge a 5% 'haulage' tax for local purchases. Its up to your miners whether they sell effortlessly to the corp on location, or waste time jumping to the local hub. Your miners are not loosing out as ore-starved regions tend to have a higher mineral price anyway, so even with the 5% 'haulage tax' they earn as much as they would elsewhere. Your corps profit comes from that 5% and organizing a once weekly freighter run.
-A maxed out orca pilot, setup correctly, will provide something like a 38% bonus to the yield of the miners in his squad. Take it upon yourself to provide your miners with orca support and purchase the ore from your miners at 20% below market price. Thanks to the yield bonus from the orca your miners will still be making 18% more than when working on their own, even after your corp gets its 20% cut.
A truly wise CEO will sort himself out with a freighter, an orca, some profitable BPO's and locate a remote system in a mineral starved region. Combining all of the above can easily net you a 30%-40% profit off the back of your miners hard work, with your miners still making significantly more than they would working alone. Everyone wins.
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Beldaws
Gallente Maniac Miners
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Posted - 2009.06.22 22:29:00 -
[17]
I usually just give the Orca pilot (usually me) an equal split of the minerals with the miners. It makes it easier than trying to explain to the miners how buying the minerals for 20% below market price is actually a good deal because of the Orca bonuses.
Originally by: Nico Drebb
-A maxed out orca pilot, setup correctly, will provide something like a 38% bonus to the yield of the miners in his squad. Take it upon yourself to provide your miners with orca support and purchase the ore from your miners at 20% below market price. Thanks to the yield bonus from the orca your miners will still be making 18% more than when working on their own, even after your corp gets its 20% cut.
A truly wise CEO will sort himself out with a freighter, an orca, some profitable BPO's and locate a remote system in a mineral starved region. Combining all of the above can easily net you a 30%-40% profit off the back of your miners hard work, with your miners still making significantly more than they would working alone. Everyone wins.
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Not Well
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Posted - 2009.06.23 06:39:00 -
[18]
Thanks for all the ideas, this is great. You folks are much nicer than the ôindividualsö over at Crime and Punishmentà
If I am reading thing right, there are a couple of principles that come out. One. You want to pay your miners market, so they have no reason not to sell to you.
Two. You should be making your money off the manufacturing, 10% profit being a minimum.
Three. You want an Orca or something to get gang bonuses. This is good for the corp and the miners, to the rough tune of 20% more productivity to each group.
Four. You can set up some prices in certain locations that take into account taxes or hauling time. These might get you a few percent more to the corp and still have the miners come out ahead. However, you will then have to explain it and it may not be as successful as straight market prices. Go see point One, it is probably not worth it.
Five. PVP and miners have different views of the world and corps can split if you donÆt get this right.
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Nicholai Pestot
Gallente Scorpanti Corporation
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Posted - 2009.06.23 07:27:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Beldaws I usually just give the Orca pilot (usually me) an equal split of the minerals with the miners. It makes it easier than trying to explain to the miners how buying the minerals for 20% below market price is actually a good deal because of the Orca bonuses.
True, but a CEO should be good at explaining things. Writing an online briefing for your corp about the maths involved would also be a good idea.
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Nico Drebb
Reefer Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.23 07:36:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Not Well
Three. You want an Orca or something to get gang bonuses. This is good for the corp and the miners, to the rough tune of 20% more productivity to each group.
38% when maxed out. 20% is about how much you can skim off the mineral purchases with your individual miners still coming out significantly (and importantly for them, noticeably) ahead.
Just remember not to include an orca in groups consisting of less than 3 mining barges. If you only have 1 or 2 mining barges operating you will make more from having the orca pilot mine in a barge then you will from having him there providing gang bonuses.
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.06.23 08:23:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 23/06/2009 08:23:14 note that mere presence of orca/hauler will boost effectiveness of miners, by not forcing them to haul ore themselves. miner hauling his ore from belt to station is losing at least 25% profit. |
Lukriss
Lone Star Academy
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Posted - 2009.06.23 11:38:00 -
[22]
From my corp forums.
Quote: 3. Mining
LSA uses the same mining program as LSJV. We will be focusing on Mining in High Sec in .5 to .7 Systems which don't contain Stations. This will insure healthy belts to mine. Limited Locations have been initially chosen, but will expand though out the Northern Portion of the Empire map as we drain belts.
The Ores mined will be based on the market prices on Minerals and the demands of LSJV.
LSA will be using the same Modified Minning Buddy program as LSJV and using the same payout and share system. This will ensure all the questions and concerns of players can be dealt with in the safety of Empire before they are exported to LSJV in Empire.
LSA will be using a special program that is used by LSJV and has since its launch made its proofs. The program approaches an "Instant Payout" scheme, where a certain cut off the value of the ore is taken by the corp (30%) and the miner is paid directly, usually the same day, for the ore he mined that day.
Using a special web-based application called Mining Buddy, LSA uses a fair distributing system of the shares involved in between the different miners.
Quote: Hauler - 2.5
Tank (alt) - 0.5 Tank - 1 Booster - 1 Booster +Tank - 1.5
Mining Cruiser - 1.5 Mining Battleship - 2.0 Retriever - 2.0 Covetor - 3.0 Hulk- 3.5
Mining Buddy registers the amount of time you spent in the belt as well as which ship you were flying, and at the end of the op, computes the total value of everything that was mined and automatically calculates your cut in ISK.
Please note this mining tax helps pay for the Maintenance of the Safe Spot POS's, The Capital Route, and Repaying the costs incurred from the last war
4. Competing against LSA
All mining needs to be done though LSA, Minning buddy program as this is the primary income for the corp to pay for operation of the corp and its assets.
This yields the corp the benefit of getting 30% of the mined minerals in profit, encourages people to mine together (few people in barges one in orca and a hauler or similar set up) and means the corp handles all of our logistics for us (we throw ore in the hangar after mining), so even if we get paid 30% below the actual ore prices, we still get a descent chunk of change out of it, especially considdering a lot of the time we'd have to use hauling/selling is handled for us.
Originally by: Akita T PROBLEM : Basement is overflowing with water from a ruptured pipe. NORMAL solution: fix the pipe, clean up the water. CCP solution: install a pump to drain water from the base
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ShardowRhino
Caldari Legion 0f The Damned
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Posted - 2009.06.23 11:56:00 -
[23]
I want my corpmates to earn their stuff. If they have access to something, they gotta earn it. Just like I have to earn it. If we all benefit then we all need to put in some effort.
At the same time if someone in corp is not earning isk I want to know why. I want to know why so i can see if I can pick out the problems and work with them and others to get them in a position to earn.
If the corp has bpos, they are researched. Corpmates can produce off of them, no questions asked, well maybe I'll ask how much of a profit they are making. THe reason for this question is to see if we could have our members generating more isk by bolstering the numbers and or types of bpos we have.
Of course to produce you need minerals. Now if you are mining then thats your primary source of income. You aren't out there doing L4s. If you are using those mins to produce then you either need your own bpos/bpcs or you are going to be using corp bpos/bpcs. That means you are profiting off of corp assets, assets you didn't need to go out and purchase and then research.
Corp assets are purchased by the group's efforts. PVErs might be paying taxes which comes out of their main source of income. So miners should expect that they need to contribute just as much. This is especially true if they are profiting off of the use of corp assets. So it would be fair for a CEO to come up with a sort of formula based upon the activity level of the miners.
The CEO could say that x miner is using a covetor. Each mining laser brings in X amount of M3 per cycle. If the miner is normally mining 3 hours a day you can break that down into a percentage. if corp tax is at 10% for pvers then 3hours x60=180. 180 divided by 10=18 minutes. 18 minutes is 6 cycles. 6cycles x 3<for each strip miner on the ship>=18. then you multiply X by 18, where again X is the m3 per cycle of a strip miner= corp tax in m3 of ore. So if X=1,000M3 of ore you end up with 18,000 M3 of ore per day the miner does his thing.
Now I'm not going to attempt to calculate the value of the ore. The corp may need certain materials instead of materials that will get them the most isk. Isk vs material needs is determined by the CEO or head of production. Last i heard veld was worth was 6mil per hour. That means a miner could make 18mil per day. This means the miner would be taxed 1.8mil worth of ore per day leaving him with 16.2mil for the day. Not to bad but im sure some would complain.
Those who complain should look at what the PVERs are pulling in. On average you could get about 15mil per hour doing L4s, sometimes less, sometimes more. For a 3 hour day of gaming they average 45mil of which 10% goes to the corp. That means 4.5mil per day is going to the corpwallet which is 2.7mil more isk then the miner is giving to the corp.
Sure they pay more because they are making more, right? Yes but are they getting the same out of a corp then an Industrialist? It leads to the question of what can a hisec corp offer? Certainly it can offer more towards Industrialists then PVERs. Pvers may get free ammo and drones but the Indy could gain access to a corp POS for RnD or increased production speed. They also get access to BPOs they didnt have to buy or research. No long waits or risk involved with research because its done already or safely done in a pos. If access to bpos increases your income then you gained far more benifit from being in the corp then the pver who is paying more per day.
Another thing is that npc corp miners are picked on more often then player corp miners. Some mistake you as a macro miner, others see you as easy prey as you have no friends apparently. People are far more reluctant to canflip players in a real corp as it could lead to a wardec. Some time ago a corpie said to watch out for x player cause he steals ore. of course he was on an alt in an npc corp. That same player never attempted to steal my ore once out of the many times we bumped into each other in field.
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ShardowRhino
Caldari Legion 0f The Damned
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Posted - 2009.06.23 12:04:00 -
[24]
out of space there.... :P
I know that players dont can flip player corp miners unless they are trying to start trouble. I know because i used to have a field day with npc corp miners i suspected were macroers. I took their ore because it was just going to be used to make RL cash for someone that saw eve as a business, not a game. I never bothered with players in a corp because they were out to make their own isk and if we suspected macroers in a player corp, we could wardec em until they left the area.
There might have been a few players that were not macro miners but they were in npc corps. What did they expect, especially when they didnt respond but clearly actively mining. of course some macroers know a bit of english so if you couldn't hold up a simple conversation, you might have been a macro that knew a few basic phrases to fool can flippers out to mess with your business.
So to be honest one of the biggest benefits a miner can gain from being in a player corp, especially with PVPers is that people will think twice about stealing your ore. Some might ignore you as I would have. Others might think twice about ****ing off a corp. Of course those out for trouble will still mess with you. But at least there will people other then you getting ****ed about it and looking for payback. |
Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience The Jagged Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.23 12:16:00 -
[25]
Shadowrhino brings up a good point. But to have members *****ing about mission runners and miners would be too much for even me to bear with and I'll probably ask them to concentrate on what they're doing as they're chosing to do it in the first place.
So miners aren't taxed as much, okay but they do use less corp supplied ammo/missiles as they're mining and in our case at least, I don't think the miners ask the corp to supply them either.
So what you've now got is three choices in profession:
Miner Mission Runner Pure trained Combat pilot, who COULD do missions but is bored.
Add in those that can build T2 stuff and have the skills where invention is an option, and of course researching blueprints, and that's even more cross training available.
In our corporation at least, if you want to build for the corp we ask, that you don't manufacture for your own income (too much, if ever). Income comes from mission running and or mining and selling the minerals to the corporation.
If you have science skills and you want blueprints researched that can be sorted out, otherwise give em to me and I'll sort it for you, making ten max run copies for the corporation in exchance for the research and then giving you the original back.
There's no easy answer though as it will entirely depend on the individuals it pertains to. If it's a new system you want to implement then it may take a psychology degree in order to influence people positively and the most important thing is that it's seen to work and is implemented across the board for everyone, same delivery method = same price.
So saying that, you could charge less for the minerals/ore if they're not within one jump of a designated system, but you'll now have two columns of prices to work with, so good luck with that.
Good luck Not Well, I think you're going to need it. EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser |
Fenris Ulfur
Tenacious Tendencies
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Posted - 2009.06.23 12:23:00 -
[26]
We have weekly ops where any member of the corp can chip in as a miner, hauler, booster or when we mine in low sec, protection. Each member gets a token for every 30 minutes that he has been involved in the op. At the end of the op, which has no specific end time (has sometimes lasted for 10 hours moving between systems), the worth of the minerals are calculated with the numbers that our mineral price researcher has (we do extensive market research) and these are almost always a few isk below the market price.
So you might as your self; Now if the price is lower then the market price then the members won't get as much for their work as if they'd just mined for 10 hours them selves. Well here's where the kicker comes in. The total value of what was mined gets divided by the amount of tokens that were given out. Then each members get payed the amount each token gives times the amount of tokens that he got. For example: I mined for 4 hours, I get 8 tokens, each token is worth 600k isk, so I get 600k * 8 = 4,8 million isk (mind you that 600k for each token is lower then I think we've ever had. Rather something like 2-3 million isk.) So for a new player that has almost no mining skills and spending 5-6 hours mining with other members that have far superior skills he gets huge amounts of isk that he wouldn't have been able to get for the same time mining just him self. And the other, more advanced players, will still get more for the co-operation rather then mining alone, even though their increased margin is smaller then the new players.
This has worked wonders for our corp for years and still keeps a happy face on all our members
--------------------------------------------------------------------- "But rather than that you question my courage, let someone put his hand in my mouth as a pledge that this is done in good faith" |
Ta'jek
Angels Of Death EVE Free Worlds Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.23 12:57:00 -
[27]
no requirements in ours but when a corpie makes a donation to the corp in ore,minerals or isk their standings in the corp are adjusted. This is used when determining the cost of buying things manufactured by the corp.
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Thyro
X0-1 Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.23 13:30:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Thyro on 23/06/2009 13:30:31 The corp buys the Ore/already minerals from Ore/modules until meet a certain quota and at market rate; therefore quick cash for miners/non-miners because don't have to wait until someone buys from them on the market.
This way a corp have good minerals flow, otherwise if quotes aren't meet internally then the corp would be forced to buy from the market.
corp minings is thing of the pre-historic past! ;)
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience The Jagged Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.23 13:55:00 -
[29]
The spreadsheet that I've designed and in the process of upgrading is mainly a manufacturing spreadsheet, but it's more than that.
In addition to telling you what materials you'll need to build items, it will also calculate the refine income you get and the value of ores based on output with a few slots for reduction - I usually put this at 2%. The main price point is the mineral prices on the local market and then the reduction is calculated.
The refining price per unit is calculated and it's very very easy for me to plug in the amounts that a member wants to sell to the corp using the published prices and it'll give me the corp value, market value and as important if in a different area the volume required to carry it to where it has to be.
EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser |
Avalon Champion
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
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Posted - 2009.06.23 15:24:00 -
[30]
The first corp that i joined used a simular method as Fenris Ulfur suggested, except they used MST.EXE to calculate the mineral split, but was based on time spent mining the added benefit was that you could suspend a session if someone went AFK for dinner, and resume when they came back, and keeping track of tokens wasnt an issue.
This did two things, it got people involved in the ops, the noobs (like me) didnt feel intimidated by those that had barges or Mining BS, and the more experienced players, felt like they where giving a helping hand to noobs, while we all felt we where helping the corp. The Corp took 10%-30% in Tax, depending on the corp mineral requirements, as players mining meant no tax income from ratting/missions.
In addition to the noobs received points for joining ops, and recieved points for each op, after a certain number of points where gained they became full members.
Ultimately us noobs advanced and got in to bigger better ships and when the new batch of noobs joined us, and we started helping them out, it was a good cycle, almost socialist in nature.
The mining ops where far from boring as there was a lot of chat about general eve stuff such as good pve/pvp fittings, training plans, etc in the fleet channel.
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