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Covert Kitty
Amarr
ISK Solutions
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Posted - 2009.06.24 03:55:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Covert Kitty on 24/06/2009 04:05:53
ISK Solutions is now launching its new trade route discovery and analysis tool!
I've been working on this tool for quite some time now, and I feel its ready for public consumption. For those of you who make less than 10mil / hour this tool may be just the thing you need to start generating capitol, and learning about the market as a whole.
Have a look at http://logicaldreams.net/eve/ the whole site is In Game Browser safe.
So what makes this tool different than some of the other trade route tools out there? It's the only tool currently that lets you share your market export data with friends, its fully multiuser. It's also fast, 90% of the app is written in C++ and its fairly well optimized. It's one of very few tools that can process data not only from multiple sources (you, your friends, evecentral) but also across all regions at once as opposed to just comparing one region to another. I have compared its results against some of the other tools out there on the same data, and my tool always seems to come up with vastly better, more profitable routes. I haven't dug into the source of those other tools, so I can't really say why that is actually, but ill take it :)
If your interested, go to the site, read the main page, apply for an account. When you download the client, please read the full readme file, and installation faq. When you successfully log into the site for the first time make sure to read the entire users guide. The tool looks deceptively simple, and it is, but the users guide will teach you how to get good results, and optimize the time your spending trading.
Hope to talk to you soon! :)
ps: I am only taking a limited number of clients, like 10-20 for the initial launch, I may scale up a little further than that later.
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RJ Nobel
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Posted - 2009.06.24 06:41:00 -
[2]
It appears that you've put a lot of time into developing the program and your plan for marketing it. And yet the most important aspect of any post/offering in MD has been ignored - why should we trust you? This could easily be a keylogger/malware, a scam, or both. As it stands now, I wouldn't go anywhere near this - but with some development, this could have a lot of potential. A third-party review of the code would help a lot, as would considering a free trial period, at least until you have a base of users that can verify the security and performance of the product. Good luck.
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Covert Kitty
Amarr
ISK Solutions
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Posted - 2009.06.24 07:20:00 -
[3]
The trust aspect is a legitimate point and I have thought about that, I am hoping that the people that do decide to trust me can provide their testimonials here, In a few days I may pester them to do so, I already have a number of people using it. As for a free trial, well 2 mil is basically free, so that's a non issue. I actually don't want people trying it that aren't somewhat serious. The fact is that the analysis portion which runs on the server is quite intensive and I don't want my server bogged down by tons of people only there for the heck of it. At any rate, I'm not in any hurry to prove anything to anyone, in time that will take care of itself.
I fully understand where your coming from though.
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HawkBlade
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.06.24 07:27:00 -
[4]
I like the multi-user shared aspect of this. However I have to tell you, I'm not too keen on doing work that will be shared by who knows. Also the 650,000,000 isk per year, per person, is a fairly high price for an application that I, and friends, are only renting.
Pass.
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Gruuber
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Posted - 2009.06.24 07:32:00 -
[5]
I have know CK for quite some time now. He was previously a member of a Corporation that I am a Director of. I've personally lent him hundreds of millions of ISK to get his trade business up and running and have always received my ISK back (with interest). He was able to buy his freighter and a set of +4 implants his first month of playing using this application. I am also a user of this application and it works beautifully. Those that are brave enough to trust him will not regret it, and I hope that once they do, they too will post their testimonials on this amazing application.
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Covert Kitty
Amarr
ISK Solutions
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Posted - 2009.06.24 07:39:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Covert Kitty on 24/06/2009 07:41:59
 Quote:
I like the multi-user shared aspect of this. However I have to tell you, I'm not too keen on doing work that will be shared by who knows
That's not how it works, You pick what users you share data with, and they need to permit you as well. So that's a feature you would use within your corp or something, and its easy to change your data's permissions as well.
As for the price, the fact is that its unlikely your going to be needing this app for more than 2-3 months, you *should* outgrow this kind of trading for more lucrative things. Generally I've found you cap out around 10mil/hour, around 800 million capitol. Obviously there are good days and bad days, like one time I found a run that made me 60 million, 1 jump out of jita :D.
The point is this is giving you access to a revenue stream that simply cannot be had without something like this, one that's accessible to new players that are not yet making isk at that rate. Eventually you get into longer term buying and selling and things and as many here could tell you, you'll make a whole lot more than this if your reasonable at it. But breaking that 1 billion mark for the first time? buying your first freighter? or funding expensive skills and implants? that's where this comes in.
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Viktor Raybach
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Posted - 2009.06.24 08:01:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Gruuber
Edited by: Gruuber on 24/06/2009 07:42:46
I have known CK for quite some time now. He was previously a member of a Corporation that I am a Director of. I've personally lent him hundreds of millions of ISK to get his trade business up and running and have always received my ISK back (with interest). He was able to buy his freighter and a set of +4 implants his first month of playing using this application. I am also a user of this application and it works beautifully. Those that are brave enough to trust him will not regret it, and I hope that once they do, they too will post their testimonials on this amazing application.
And this being your one and only post ever on the forums is bound to instill us with confidence.
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Gruuber
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Posted - 2009.06.24 08:05:00 -
[8]
This is the only thing I've found worth replying to. Look me up ingame, you will see that I am not a new player.
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Viktor Raybach
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Posted - 2009.06.24 08:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Gruuber
This is the only thing I've found worth replying to. Look me up ingame, you will see that I am not a new player.
I already did. But without a posting history there's nothing to say you're not an alt of the OP.
The problem with unverified software, apart from the fundamental concern of it being a general keylogger or other malware, is that of it gathering account information, api info etc etc etc.
Other software I've seen here typically has the source code released.
Add to which, 650 mil a year? No thanks.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.06.24 08:21:00 -
[10]
You share the same issues of so many wanna be enterpreneurs: too greedy, too early, too much dogmatic "I tell you this hence it's true".
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Covert Kitty
Amarr
ISK Solutions
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Posted - 2009.06.24 08:50:00 -
[11]
Quote:
api info
It doesn't ask for api info. It's useful to set the website as trusted so it can auto populate the origin field, however that's entirely optional and you can use it fine without it.
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quygen
Minmatar
Acting Neutral
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Posted - 2009.06.24 09:41:00 -
[12]
Seen a simpler version of this on Eve-central. Free, but looking at your screeny in the link. 24 mill profit over 15 jumps and 14 docks in a freighter is poor. An maybe even 1h-2h work. So...
I'd rather make 10mil/h mission running docking 2-4 times an hour making less jumps.
just my thoughts on that.. not worth 2 cents..
Please resize your sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 - Mitnal
^
You seen it CCP =) Now go fix! |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.06.24 09:54:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 24/06/2009 09:56:44
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 24/06/2009 09:55:13
Quote:
ôWhat kind of society isn't structured on greed?" -Milton Friedman
The emphasis was on "too", not on "greedy".
Quote:
Well... it is true, the site exists, the app exists, if you want to prove it to yourself completely you have the option of paying a paltry sum of 2 mil. Otherwise nobody is forcing you.
Cost of opportunity. Don't start someone whose MD "job" is to find business faults do that. Oh wait, it's too late.
While I can willingly burn more than 2M just to ruin the day of another trader (aka PvP) I don't feel the same compelling reason to do it knowing about the steep fee.
Just do 1 + 1 and market research: your product is oriented to low income early traders but your charge six times more than a software used even by rich end game traders (soon going free open source).
Let's use your own numbers, on a 4h a day player for 4 weeks per month (to fit with your subscription well).
Quote:
for the price, the fact is that its unlikely your going to be needing this app for more than 2-3 months, you *should* outgrow this kind of trading for more lucrative things. Generally I've found you cap out around 10mil/hour, around 800 million capitol.
In the best situation (or "cap") this means earning about 4 * 10 * 28 a month = 1120M
Cost is 50M or about 4.46% of the player income, in the best possible situation and considering his play time as 100% dedicated to freigthing.
A more realistic percentage would be his 6% of income.
This amount of "tax" is not going to drop anytime soon and is untied with actual performance, with getting ganked and so on. Basically a live fixed liability.
Now, current bonds go for 4.5%, (up to 10% for zero safety zero collateral high risk bonds).
The player may issue a 1-5B bond and use that money to trade and earn himself a way higher margin for the same "tax". Plus the bond will expire, something in your case happens only by rescinding the subscription.
Basically your business plan is faulty, as it's not competitive against the alternatives.
Quote:
Seen a simpler version of this on Eve-central. Free
There is also at least 1-2 more and at least 1 supports "one to many routes" paradygm.
Edits: typos and more typos |
SakraEternal
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Posted - 2009.06.24 12:35:00 -
[14]
Admittedly, I am a new player, but this tool does work. I never much looked into markets, I prefer to blow things up. But, using a starting industrial ship, and 10 mil startup, I did manage to find a few traderoutes that weren't ridiculously long, and I made a couple million in half an hour or so.
I recommend this for anyone who LIKES trading, or is looking to get into it. I'm told that profit goes up as cargo capacity, and capitol does.
P.S. The creator -does- listen to suggestions, feel free to make some. |
carmo pereira
Trade Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.24 13:18:00 -
[15]
hi covert kitty.
It's good to see a new app, for making good track and analysys of market opportunities.
like others said, i don't see a point on this tool, for it price,etc. etc. etc. and mainly because it exists NavBOT. something similar. a hauler thing.
if you have the skills (c++) and want to reach something greater, i'm happy to give you a sugestion on a greater tool. |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.06.24 14:13:00 -
[16]
You have developed a tool. Congrats on that, but the tool is not worth the amount of money you are asking for.
EMMA is a comprehensive tool that many people use and admire, and that has a 100M ISK fee.
Your tool would probably not be as widely used as that so you are going to need to market it under the cost of EMMA.
If you price in the 50M ISK range many people might pay to try it out, but the money you are asking no one will touch it.
Do some market research.
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Iece Quaan
Caldari
Utopian Research I.E.L.
Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2009.06.24 14:13:00 -
[17]
Hm.
A black box application with limited user coverage, which means limited overall feedback on the effectiveness ( and safety ) of the app;
Closed source app, meaning the safety of the app can't be verified by third parties;
And you want me to pay a not-insignificant amount of the isk I'll be making for the privilege?
No. Points for creativeness, and I'll even believe you when you say it works, but no. You haven't given enough assurances that it isn't a keylogger for me to even download it for free. Pay? Absolutely not.
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Ezien
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Posted - 2009.06.24 16:31:00 -
[18]
Alright, I used this last night with about 100m captitol and a t1 indy.
End Result was about 25m profit for 1.5 hours of work. Not bad.
I exported data across three regions and went about trading the items the tool suggested. My one complaint is that I could have doubled my profit in one of the runs had I been able to see the buy order underneath it; but then again, I would've been going over the capitol limit I gave the filters.
I can still appear to login today, and my assets are still intact. This could still be a keylogger, but it does provide legitimate functionality which a lot of time went into programming. Additionally, it does not need to be running while you login to Eve Online at all, and it doesn't seem to leave any extra processes running behind it.
I have not heard of Navbot though; I will try that tonight to compare the tools and post here again. Suffice to say, this tool is vastly superior to Eve-Central's "Trade" search, and while Emma can optimize routes between systems, I don't believe it actually finds routes.
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Frankfasta
Minmatar
Knights Of the Black Sun
Somalian Pirates We
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Posted - 2009.06.24 17:59:00 -
[19]
for the quick readers:
OP:
Originally by: Covert Kitty
(...) For those of you who make less than 10mil / hour this tool may be just the thing you need to start generating capitol, (...)
first testimonial
Originally by: SakraEternal
(...) I'm told that profit goes up as cargo capacity, and capitol does. (...)
second testimonial
Originally by: Ezien
(...) Alright, I used this last night with about 100m captitol and a t1 indy. (...)
Stay safe, use plastic!
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Hel O'Ween
Academy of Truth
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Posted - 2009.06.24 18:58:00 -
[20]
Good catch, Frankfasta.
--
EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.06.24 19:59:00 -
[21]
Quote:
I have not heard of Navbot though; I will try that tonight to compare the tools and post here again. Suffice to say, this tool is vastly superior to Eve-Central's "Trade" search, and while Emma can optimize routes between systems, I don't believe it actually finds routes.
"Between a trade and a finder, the free tool exists". (mystery hintful mode off)
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Covert Kitty
Amarr
ISK Solutions
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Posted - 2009.06.24 20:48:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Covert Kitty on 24/06/2009 20:54:17
Quote:
looking at your screeny in the link. 24 mill profit over 15 jumps and 14 docks in a freighter is poor. An maybe even 1h-2h work.
The screenshot is not great and it will be replaced next time I go trading. I just took it quick to show the app, its not a great route, its also using evecentral for the most part so all the data there is likely totally wrong anyway.
Quote:
So... I'd rather make 10mil/h mission running docking 2-4 times an hour making less jumps.
If you can make over 10m/hr already than this app is of no interest to you.
Quote:
Basically your business plan is faulty, as it's not competitive against the alternatives.
Well its my second day of business and I am already exceeding what my growth expectations were, so I'm not feeling that its faulty by any stretch of the imagination. The plan will stay the same, though I may adjust various parameters, I am considering extending the lower-cost trial period for example. As for bonds and other options, sure, there's a lot of other ways you can go, but to someone relatively new at the market they wouldn't even know what to do with those multiple billions, this app provides a great introduction. Keep in mind, I don't *ever* intend on having all that many clients (like 40 at most), and I am intentionally growing slowly so that I can monitor resource utilization on the server. This is a niche application and business model.
Quote:
if you have the skills (c++) and want to reach something greater, I'm happy to give you a suggestion on a greater tool.
Feel free to mail me any suggestions you might have.
Quote:
EMMA
EMMA is a great application but it has nothing to do with what mine does. To be clear my tool here is for one thing and one thing only, to quickly locate goods you can buy low somewhere, and immediately sell elsewhere. It is not for speculation, or really anything else.
Quote:
Eve Central
It can't realistically be used for this.
Quote:
NavBOT
NavBot does do some of the things mine does, I encourage you to compare them as Ezien is doing. I knew of NavBOT before I started developing this. It doesn't seem to come up with good results in comparison, I'm not really sure why either. Regardless its slower to manage, slower at calculating the results, and has no ability to combine data from multiple sources.
Quote:
650 mil a year? No thanks.
Actually 650/50 = 13, so 12 would be 600. Regardless your looking at this wrong, If your going to be trading in this way, and many people do, how much can time can you save and how much more can you make because your using this over the other potential options. I'll tell you I didn't spend a month writing this because I felt the others worked well enough for me. All it needs to do is save you around 1.6 million in a day of trading to be worth it, and it will.
Thanks for all of your replies |
Ezien
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Posted - 2009.06.24 21:58:00 -
[23]
I checked out NavBot for: whoever mentioned it does not know what they were talking about.
It's very simple and has its own charm in imitating an agent, but gives you nowhere near the same amount of control for search parameters (only cargo hold, tax rate, and capital?)
I tried to get Eve Trade Finder working for about 30 minutes, only to repeatedly run into "Client not trusted" errors, even with the exact domain "http://localhost:8080/" trusted (also included "http://localhost/".) Not sure what went wrong there. Judging from some screenshots, it looks to have comparable amounts of data and search parameters, but we really need someone who has used this tool to pitch in.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
"Between a trade and a finder, the free tool exists". (mystery hintful mode off)
Were you referring to Emma? I did some google searches for "Emma Trade Route Finder" and could not find anything about it.
Now, let's get to the downsides.
-This tool requires you to login every time you switch characters.
-12.5m a week seems a bit expensive. It is not expensive compared to the current earning potential, but you need to use the tool to get your money's worth. (I would personally prefer a one-time fee, but there's server hosting costs involved.)
-Browser speed makes baby jesus cry, but this affects all browser-based apps.
-It's serverside. 'Nuff said.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.06.24 22:09:00 -
[24]
Quote:
-12.5m a week seems a bit expensive. It is not expensive compared to the current earning potential,
It is for the intended targets, expecially if they don't play 4+ hours a day.
A WAY better licensing scheme (used by other apps) would be to track the usage of the server and/or the generated income and take a cut out of that.
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RJ Nobel
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Posted - 2009.06.24 22:16:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Covert Kitty
Quote:
650 mil a year? No thanks.
Actually 650/50 = 13, so 12 would be 600.
You're charging in two-week increments: 650/25 = 26. 26 subscription blocks, 52 weeks in a year... yep, sounds right to me. Not a major point, but one that needed to be made.
The major point is that you've still carefully avoided any mention of having the code reviewed by a third-party, and that all of the "testimonials" have come from one-post-history characters. Your polite responses are probably the only reason that this thread hasn't degenerated into a SCAM!!! trollfest. Good luck in your continued marketing efforts.
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Ezeon
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Posted - 2009.06.24 22:28:00 -
[26]
Originally by: RJ Nobel
all of the "testimonials" have come from one-post-history characters.
I've actually posted from this character in the past, but it's not the one I play in-game. It could still very well be a scam , since we can't see the source, but I can say that the author's claims (functionality-wise) about the tool are indeed true.
I'm skeptical of closed-source community projects as well. I'm going to hope the author figures he/she can make more off the tool by charging people biweekly than scamming everyone's accounts at some point, though that's arguable, as handling that many contracts each week is going to be a pain.
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Eric Woo
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Posted - 2009.06.24 22:56:00 -
[27]
This is like downloading pr*n from kazaa, you never know what you get. |
Xapharia
WOLIMAZO INC
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Posted - 2009.06.24 23:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Eric Woo
This is like downloading pr*n from kazaa, you never know what you get.
If you use Kazaa you're asking for trouble, no matter what you download.
_________________________
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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Covert Kitty
Amarr
ISK Solutions
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Posted - 2009.06.25 01:02:00 -
[29]
To dissuade understandable fears of keyloggers, malware, etc. I've decided to release the source for the client. This has the side benefit of allowing people to compile it on Linux (Linux is actually its native development platform), and will allow someone to port it to Mac if they are interested. You can download it here: http://logicaldreams.net/eve/client_src.zip
Also means I don't have to deal with making binaries for Linux distros, which I really didn't want to bother with.
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jack edup
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Posted - 2009.06.25 03:34:00 -
[30]
I'm using the tool, and making money. As far as I can tell, as the tool gains customers, people who aren't using it will be at an informational disadvantage. In a given amount of time I can make much better decisions about how to trade the market as it is.
I would recommend getting a buddy or an alt or two to share information with.
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