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Michwich
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 06:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
First off I dont mind giving CCP the answers, thats the beauty of being a genius, you can steal my ideas, but i got more where they come from and you got something you dont even know what to do with. Ive played other games where developers tried to implement my ideas, but they just dont get it, its like a baby with an m16. What good is all that power when its in the hand of a baby? They'll just shoot themselves in the foot.
So Whats killing eve and how do we fix it?
Problem 1. PVE
Eve cant compete with other games offering beautiful PVE enviroments graphics and charm. You cant see anything in this game so why look? Might as well be text.
2. Pay to play
Eve has a cash shop, sells gold, its pay to win like no other mmo, and its still charging a monthly fee. Thers competition! And they're not charging anything.
3. Skill advancement. Time based skill advancement = waste of time. Gives no sense of control over your characters progression. Jump on the time train and wait.
4. PVP Theres no moves in this game. If i cant out aim out maneuever my oponent, lets just play dice.
5. YOU. buy subscribing youre giving CCP enough money that they're comfortable with not making any changes.
Solutions.
1. hopeless
2. Make the game free to play.
3. time based skill advancement to grind based skill advancement. (funny grinding which everyone hates is still a better option than waiting) For example if you mine youre mining skills advance, the more you shoot missles the more your missles skills advance. This gives you control in character progression.
4. Make some cross hairs, and let the mouse button click shoot something. Simple, but fun!!
5. unsubscribe.
so some things are unfixable, but no 2 and 3 are fixable by tommorow if you choose number 5 today!
So go ahead and share what you think is majorly wrong with this game, and how to fix it. 2 and 3 is why I dont play this game and only subscribe 1 month out of a year just to check in. No dont bother, I dont wanna hear about goons bla carebears bla, you sub to this game means you like it. Youre the problem to the rest of us who left.
|

Boomhaur
64
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 06:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Save the cheerleader, save the world.
And you need to learn how to troll better. Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you. |

Karadion Kohlar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 06:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
How to save Eve? Biomass yourself first. |

Michwich
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 06:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Karadion Kohlar wrote:How to save Eve? Biomass yourself first.
Id love to, but I care about you guys, how will I pass on the message when im gone? Someone has to stay and do the dirty work, go, leave! Ill do it. |

Karadion Kohlar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 06:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Michwich wrote:Karadion Kohlar wrote:How to save Eve? Biomass yourself first. Id love to, but I care about you guys, how will I pass on the message when im gone? Someone has to stay and do the dirty work, go, leave! Ill do it. Because no one cares about you. |

Malak Dawnfire
27th Gallentean Fleet
56
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 06:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Seems that EvE needs more saving than Princess Peach. |

Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 06:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
Karadion Kohlar wrote:Michwich wrote:Karadion Kohlar wrote:How to save Eve? Biomass yourself first. Id love to, but I care about you guys, how will I pass on the message when im gone? Someone has to stay and do the dirty work, go, leave! Ill do it. Because no one cares about you.
And if Moonswarm was gone tomorrow, you would be a passing memory in 2 months.
|

Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
150
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 06:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
No, you're a fuckin idiot
Less shitpoasting, more playing in traffic plz There should be a rather awesome pic here |

Tomcio FromFarAway
The Scope Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 07:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think I'm gonna throw up. |

Michwich
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 07:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote:No, you're a fuckin idiot
Less shitpoasting, more playing in traffic plz
How about less shipspining and more undocking, which would happen if you know, you could train that skill faster after so many rat kills, or pvp kills.
lol nice avatar. You stay put, the real world doesnt need you. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6899
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 07:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Michwich wrote:Eve cant compete with other games offering beautiful PVE enviroments graphics and charm. You cant see anything in this game so why look? Might as well be text. Have you tried using the GÇ£lookGÇ¥ button? EVE is one of the prettiest MMOs on the market, especially in the GÇ£PVEGÇ¥ environments since they give you enough time to actually have a look at the surroundings.
Quote:Eve has a cash shop, sells gold, its pay to win like no other mmo, and its still charging a monthly fee. Thers competition! And they're not charging anything. No, EVE does not sell gold and is not pay-to-win.
Quote:Skill advancement. Time based skill advancement = waste of time. Gives no sense of control over your characters progression. Jump on the time train and wait. Real-time training means you can enjoy the game and what you like playing in it, rather than worry about grinding out that progression. You have full control over that progression since there are no classes or levels and at no point are you cut off from any activity or play style because you picked the wrong route back at the beginning.
Quote:Theres no moves in this game. If i cant out aim out maneuever my oponent, lets just play dice. Good thing, then, that the dice take things like manoeuvring into accountGǪ
Quote:YOU. buy subscribing youre giving CCP enough money that they're comfortable with not making any changes. Good. All of your points are factually incorrect, ideas are horrible, and you're an awful troll. -GêP/10. So you're quite right: you are what's wrong with the game. Please remove this blight from EVE post-haste. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |

JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 07:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bad trolling 1/10 |

Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
150
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 07:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
Michwich wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:No, you're a fuckin idiot
Less shitpoasting, more playing in traffic plz How about less shipspining and more undocking, which would happen if you know, you could train that skill faster after so many rat kills, or pvp kills. lol nice avatar. You stay put, the real world doesnt need you. I'd rather be hot black and pierced than a pedo-looking baldy ^^
If you think SP is the reason people shipspin, then as I said you're a fuckin idiot and you should probably play in traffic
Don't mess up the genepool for the rest of the spieces :/ There should be a rather awesome pic here |

Michwich
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 07:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:I think I'm gonna throw up. 
Here lemme help you *punches you in the stomach*
|

Tomcio FromFarAway
The Scope Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 07:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
Michwich wrote: Here lemme help you *punches you in the stomach*
Ugh....it didn't help
|

Beledia Ilphukiir
Proffessional Experts Group
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 07:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
Michwich, you're simply an old school troll and what you're doing is painfully obvious. You've been out of touch for so long, that a new breed of trolls have made you reduntant.
+1 for effort though. I'm sure you'll get better if you keep at it. |

Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
96
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 07:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
This is like the worst troll in the past hour. |

Himnos Altar
An Errant Venture
48
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 07:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
anyone else wish therre was a pen/paper RPG for EVE?
or even a DUST-based tabletop wargame. then we COULD use dice to play EVE.
MTacs, tanks, Templar/Dusters, nuking from Orbit (I spent all my points on the one Templar, but I've got 3 Dreadnaughts in orbit. I WIN!), etc. |

Ziranda Hakuli
Relativity Holding Corp AAA Citizens
50
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 08:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
Who we talkin about. better check Eve who Doomheim corp. only if i had a name |

Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1171
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 08:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
Princess Eve? Itsa me,Marioooo! |

flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
257
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 09:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
I'd love to save eve but the damsell keeps getting herself into trouble.Damsell in distress is eve in distress C/D ? |

Kaaeliaa
Ministry of War
47
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 09:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
Eh. 0.5/10. Not a terribly compelling troll. Only the most braindead of forumgoers will fall for this. |

Karn Dulake
Souls Must Be Trampled The.Alliance
755
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 09:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ive always thought this
What eve needs is a save button that i can use before i go into battle or do something stupid I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion. |

Damsel in Distress
Men staring at Boobs
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 10:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
flakeys wrote:I'd love to save eve but the damsell keeps getting herself into trouble.Damsell in distress is eve in distress C/D ?
D |

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1017
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 10:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
Beledia Ilphukiir wrote:Michwich, you're simply an old school troll and what you're doing is painfully obvious. You've been out of touch for so long, that a new breed of trolls have made you reduntant.
+1 for effort though. I'm sure you'll get better if you keep at it. Essentially this.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |

flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
257
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 10:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
Damsel in Distress wrote:flakeys wrote:I'd love to save eve but the damsell keeps getting herself into trouble.Damsell in distress is eve in distress C/D ? D
O for crying out loud LEAVE ME ALONE woman. For god's sake can't turn that big ass of yours without getting into trouble?  |

Easthir Ravin
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 10:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
Greetings
Someone did not get enough attention from mom or dad when they were young.
vr East IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES: -á" I drank WHAT?!" |

Marcus Harikari
Guitar Players of EVE
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 10:49:00 -
[28] - Quote
even better, instead of free to play, how about CCP pays *US* to play the game? |

Michwich
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 15:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
Marcus Harikari wrote:even better, instead of free to play, how about CCP pays *US* to play the game?
man youre a genius! youre so damned right. Its gonna happen, thats the future! the pay to win folk will be paying you to mine all day. Question is why are you idiots working for free? LOL no even worse, youre paying CCP to work all day!! sad |

MadMuppet
Kerguelen Station
373
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 15:41:00 -
[30] - Quote
So what does my ThACo become then? The Unified Inventory system for Inferno, which I would recommend everybody tryon SiSi, is going to be the next 'Door' for CCP. What it adds is worthless when we lose so much functionality.-á |

LittleTerror
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 15:47:00 -
[31] - Quote
Karadion Kohlar wrote:How to save Eve? Biomass yourself first. . |

Sid Hudgens
Totally not an NPC Corp
98
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 15:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
0/10 "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |

Ituhata Saken
Crimson Cross Destroyers
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 15:57:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Michwich wrote:Eve cant compete with other games offering beautiful PVE enviroments graphics and charm. You cant see anything in this game so why look? Might as well be text. Have you tried using the GÇ£lookGÇ¥ button? EVE is one of the prettiest MMOs on the market, especially in the GÇ£PVEGÇ¥ environments since they give you enough time to actually have a look at the surroundings
The ships are simply awesome, but in my opinion the environments are pretty dull compared to what might have been in jumpgate evolution and more or less what is in black prophecy, though BP is pretty much just alot of brown colored floating space junk. I guess the reality of it all is that space simply isn't this lush, rich environment filled with pretty colors and magnificent rainbow forests that spawn space unicorns. It's dark, its cold, its barren, and if you want to play a srs space based mmo that's all you get to look at.
|

Josef Djugashvilis
185
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 15:59:00 -
[34] - Quote
Michwich wrote:First off I dont mind giving CCP the answers, thats the beauty of being a genius, you can steal my ideas, but i got more where they come from and you got something you dont even know what to do with. Ive played other games where developers tried to implement my ideas, but they just dont get it, its like a baby with an m16. What good is all that power when its in the hand of a baby? They'll just shoot themselves in the foot.
So Whats killing eve and how do we fix it?
Problem 1. PVE
Eve cant compete with other games offering beautiful PVE enviroments graphics and charm. You cant see anything in this game so why look? Might as well be text.
2. Pay to play
Eve has a cash shop, sells gold, its pay to win like no other mmo, and its still charging a monthly fee. Thers competition! And they're not charging anything.
3. Skill advancement. Time based skill advancement = waste of time. Gives no sense of control over your characters progression. Jump on the time train and wait.
4. PVP Theres no moves in this game. If i cant out aim out maneuever my oponent, lets just play dice.
5. YOU. buy subscribing youre giving CCP enough money that they're comfortable with not making any changes.
Solutions.
1. hopeless
2. Make the game free to play.
3. time based skill advancement to grind based skill advancement. (funny grinding which everyone hates is still a better option than waiting) For example if you mine youre mining skills advance, the more you shoot missles the more your missles skills advance. This gives you control in character progression.
4. Make some cross hairs, and let the mouse button click shoot something. Simple, but fun!!
5. unsubscribe.
so some things are unfixable, but no 2 and 3 are fixable by tommorow if you choose number 5 today!
So go ahead and share what you think is majorly wrong with this game, and how to fix it. 2 and 3 is why I dont play this game and only subscribe 1 month out of a year just to check in. No dont bother, I dont wanna hear about goons bla carebears bla, you sub to this game means you like it. Youre the problem to the rest of us who left.
You really are cuckoo. You want fries with that? |

TheBreadMuncher
Boxxed Up Industries EPIC Alliance
58
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 15:59:00 -
[35] - Quote
And my main got banned for telling CCP to nerf hulks... *shakes head* I only ever emerge from the shadows when my main is banned. |

Boomhaur
66
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 17:56:00 -
[36] - Quote
Malak Dawnfire wrote:Seems that EvE needs more saving than Princess Peach.
At this point I think she secretly loves Bowser or has stockholm syndrome, either way she's been kidnapped over a dozen times over the past 20 years and she still haven't wisen up to get security. Something is going on if you ask me. Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you. |

Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
468
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 17:58:00 -
[37] - Quote
You can't fix EVE. EVE is the home for digital sociopathy. Sane people don't play. The sub numbers reflect the direct demographic percentage one would expect to see from the whole of gaming. Unless there's a significant rise in the world population, only then will you see EVE's sub rate rise - but then, only in the proportion of sociopaths to sane people. Anyone with any sense has already left town. |

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
794
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 18:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Boomhaur wrote:Malak Dawnfire wrote:Seems that EvE needs more saving than Princess Peach. At this point I think she secretly loves Bowser or has stockholm syndrome, either way she's been kidnapped over a dozen times over the past 20 years and she still haven't wisen up to get security. Something is going on if you ask me. Well he does have tons of castles to hide her in ... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |

Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar Intrepid Crossing
89
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 18:47:00 -
[39] - Quote
www.hellokittyonline.com
/thread I speak only for myself and my corp. My views are not representative of my alliance. |

Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
468
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 18:59:00 -
[40] - Quote
Hardy har har. Want to save EVE? Double the subscription rate and stop paying in PLEX. Do you really think the Icelandic boys will stand by and watch others making milliions from FTP/MT games and not abandon this post-adolescent playground they dreamed up to rake-in some of that dough? EVE is on the outs. It's not worth the expense to keep it vital. As with all things in this world, the long green will make the final decisions.
Your loyalty? "They'll" be coming to see you for the next bailout. Anyone with any sense has already left town. |

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1024
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 21:57:00 -
[41] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Hardy har har. Want to save EVE? Double the subscription rate and stop paying in PLEX. Do you really think the Icelandic boys will stand by and watch others making milliions from FTP/MT games and not abandon this post-adolescent playground they dreamed up to rake-in some of that dough? EVE is on the outs. It's not worth the expense to keep it vital. As with all things in this world, the long green will make the final decisions.
Your loyalty? "They'll" be coming to see you for the next bailout. Not sure if marginally more subtle troll than OP, or just stupid.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |

Mathias Hex
137
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 02:33:00 -
[42] - Quote
Sell it to SOE that ought to make you happy? I recall one night in a nightclub called the matrix, there I was... Mother of god there I am! Holy f**k. |

Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group Joint Venture Conglomerate
35
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 05:39:00 -
[43] - Quote
1/10, tryharder next time or leave it to the pro's eh? |

Pok Nibin
Viziam Amarr Empire
162
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 09:38:00 -
[44] - Quote
Did we save it yet? Lemme know. I'm going to the beach.
Simi Kusoni wrote:Vyl Vit wrote:Hardy har har. Want to save EVE? Double the subscription rate and stop paying in PLEX. Do you really think the Icelandic boys will stand by and watch others making milliions from FTP/MT games and not abandon this post-adolescent playground they dreamed up to rake-in some of that dough? EVE is on the outs. It's not worth the expense to keep it vital. As with all things in this world, the long green will make the final decisions.
Your loyalty? "They'll" be coming to see you for the next bailout. Not sure if marginally more subtle troll than OP, or just stupid. So....you're a highly refined troll detector? I wonder if you live on earth. Money honey. Does someone really have to tell you this? If so, you're in for a long, hard ride. Good luck with that. Don't fight it.-á Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs.-á You know you want to. |

knulla
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 09:49:00 -
[45] - Quote
1. PVE does need fixing across the board, no argument there as does the UI.
2. PLEX and with Expansions being free, as long as they deliver we can all live with that.
3. Grinding and time based skills are both great and ****, I hate them both and going from one **** to another **** solves little.
4. They added cross hairs to SWG and a few other MMO, guess what? It made the game more ****, less fun and I bet you are the kind of person who also hates chess because there is not enough, "action!"
5. No, will not unsubscribe, but you are welcome to do so.
FInal point, EVE does need saving, but not in this manner or because of the reasons you listed, they just need to nerf a lot more, due more balancing and make lowsec, 0.0 and wormholes more awesome and war more fun! |

Leemi Sobo
54
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 19:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
random troll wrote:How to save Eve Just push the backup button in the DB server software -> EVE saved. I guess CCP saves EVE during every downtime as incremental backup anyways. So i don't have to care about saving it my self 
|

Ilnaurk Sithdogron
Crunchy Crunchy Peregrine Nation
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 19:48:00 -
[47] - Quote
So make EVE like every other MMO? No, thanks.
And before you tell me to leave, get out of here yourself. http://eve-sojourn.blogspot.com/
Sojourn, a newbie's EVE blog. |

Pok Nibin
Viziam Amarr Empire
165
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:38:00 -
[48] - Quote
Ilnaurk Sithdogron wrote:So make EVE like every other MMO? No, thanks.
And before you tell me to leave, get out of here yourself. No...you first. Don't fight it.-á Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs.-á You know you want to. |

Ituhata Saken
Crimson Cross Destroyers
47
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 20:42:00 -
[49] - Quote
Step 1. Buy a cape
Step 2. Rush into a phone booth at the first sign of trouble.
Step 3. Wear cape, exit phone booth.
Step 4. Run and extend one hand high in the air with palm facing forward, then jump as high as you can.
Step 5. Realize you have no superpowers and go home. |

Espen Egak
Bootleg Vitamin Something Posing As Meat
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 11:45:00 -
[50] - Quote
Michwich wrote:First off I dont mind giving CCP the answers, thats the beauty of being a genius, you can steal my ideas, but i got more where they come from and you got something you dont even know what to do with. Ive played other games where developers tried to implement my ideas, but they just dont get it, its like a baby with an m16. What good is all that power when its in the hand of a baby? They'll just shoot themselves in the foot.
So Whats killing eve and how do we fix it?
Problem 1. PVE
Eve cant compete with other games offering beautiful PVE enviroments graphics and charm. You cant see anything in this game so why look? Might as well be text.
2. Pay to play
Eve has a cash shop, sells gold, its pay to win like no other mmo, and its still charging a monthly fee. Thers competition! And they're not charging anything.
3. Skill advancement. Time based skill advancement = waste of time. Gives no sense of control over your characters progression. Jump on the time train and wait.
4. PVP Theres no moves in this game. If i cant out aim out maneuever my oponent, lets just play dice.
5. YOU. buy subscribing youre giving CCP enough money that they're comfortable with not making any changes.
Solutions.
1. hopeless
2. Make the game free to play.
3. time based skill advancement to grind based skill advancement. (funny grinding which everyone hates is still a better option than waiting) For example if you mine youre mining skills advance, the more you shoot missles the more your missles skills advance. This gives you control in character progression.
4. Make some cross hairs, and let the mouse button click shoot something. Simple, but fun!!
5. unsubscribe.
so some things are unfixable, but no 2 and 3 are fixable by tommorow if you choose number 5 today!
So go ahead and share what you think is majorly wrong with this game, and how to fix it. 2 and 3 is why I dont play this game and only subscribe 1 month out of a year just to check in. No dont bother, I dont wanna hear about goons bla carebears bla, you sub to this game means you like it. Youre the problem to the rest of us who left.
Go play Black Prophecy ..
Here is why
1. it's free to play
2. You aim with your mouse and shoot with it too
3. You control speed and everything with the keyboard
4. I have no clue about the PvE or PvP part of the game
5. So I don't have to waste my time reading your post |

xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 11:48:00 -
[51] - Quote
save EVE ???? from what ???? |

Singoth
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 12:04:00 -
[52] - Quote
So you basically want WoW in space.
**** you. Less yappin', more zappin'! |

Serge Bastana
GWA Corp Unified Church of the Unobligated
560
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 12:09:00 -
[53] - Quote
Worst troll EVER! WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place... |
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| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |