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Xavia Cameron
Caldari Capital Core Collectives manufacturing disaster
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Posted - 2009.06.29 13:08:00 -
[1]
The way I see it, is that at the moment it is incredibly hard to kill a ship bigger then you... And comparitivly very easy to kill a ship only one size below you. This problem manifests largely in capital ships and titans.. where the only things that can kill them are each other and it becomes increasingly hard (especially with titans) for people without the kind of resources to overcome the impossibly large foes.
So, The solution?
Add ways for a smaller ship size to kill ships much larger then itself, obviously not alone, and obviously not very easily.
Examples:
Add a new T2 destroyer, can't fit much of a tank, but goes fast, and fits citadel torps(For anti-cap goodness). Designed to rush a capital ship that perhaps fell behind its fleet, and scare the hell out of it before fleeing because they get popped by a mosquito.
Allow A ship to target subsystems of a ship 3 classes above it (IE Frig >> Carrier/dread; Cruisers >> Super-caps) and make these subsystems critical (IE, Warp drive, jump drive, DD, fighter bay, for example)
Allow Intercepters to follow an enemy ship through a jump / warp, possibly holding a jump open for friendly ships to come through (Or just cyno some more caps through) In order to prevent captial Hit and Run.
By allowing smaller ships to do considerable damage to larger ones, you begin to force fleets to bring lower class ships to counter the even lower class ships.
-- Fix Clone Vat Bays Fix Local
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Valandril
Caldari Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.06.29 13:14:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Valandril on 29/06/2009 13:14:22 So smaller fleet cannot kill bigger and more expensive fleet without some superior tactic. Where exacly is problem in that ? Signature graphics that may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to Eve Online. All content must be in good taste.Applebabe |
Xavia Cameron
Caldari Capital Core Collectives manufacturing disaster
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Posted - 2009.06.29 13:31:00 -
[3]
Not that it cannot kill it without some stratergy, but that even with overwhelming stratergy, it is still impossibly difficult, and requires a large deal of stupidity on the person receiving the loss.
My suggestion is exactly that it should be more rewarding to attack with stratergy then to just brute force.
(Nothing is wrong with kiling with stratergy, its just that there is not enough options) -- Fix Clone Vat Bays Fix Local
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Valandril
Caldari Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.06.29 13:48:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Xavia Cameron Not that it cannot kill it without some stratergy, but that even with overwhelming stratergy, it is still impossibly difficult, and requires a large deal of stupidity on the person receiving the loss.
My suggestion is exactly that it should be more rewarding to attack with stratergy then to just brute force.
(Nothing is wrong with kiling with stratergy, its just that there is not enough options)
So i still don't see what is the issue, using proper tactics you CAN overcome overwhelming numbers and firepowers but indeed it's hard so working as intended. Signature graphics that may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to Eve Online. All content must be in good taste.Applebabe |
Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.06.29 14:22:00 -
[5]
I think we all know you "can" do this or others but thats not the point why the OP opened the thread. Its all the matter of efforts and there are people who think the efforts for killing capitals are too high. The theoretical ability is therefore not a valid argument.
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Valandril
Caldari Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.06.29 14:37:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Robert Caldera I think we all know you "can" do this or others but thats not the point why the OP opened the thread. Its all the matter of efforts and there are people who think the efforts for killing capitals are too high. The theoretical ability is therefore not a valid argument.
Then proove me that it is indeed to hard to the point that require nerfing. If you can't do that, don't bother posting. Signature graphics that may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to Eve Online. All content must be in good taste.Applebabe |
Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.06.29 14:40:00 -
[7]
this is up to the initial poster. You didnt bother posting facts everybody knows already too...
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Sophie Malaster
Gallente EuroMECH Tech Market ARTESANOS
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Posted - 2009.06.29 15:24:00 -
[8]
I dont know how, but we need a change in this area, quickly
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Mish Moo
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Posted - 2009.06.29 15:28:00 -
[9]
I do like the idea of targeting subsystems, but that would require a larg re-write as atm it might only work on tech 3 ships
But if we could target subsystems/modules it would make tackling capitals more fun.
On the other hand you would have to better arm capitals with light turrets to fend off the little ships trying to disable it, this would add more realism to capitals (no ship that big wouldnt have point defense systems)
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Victor Michaelle
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Posted - 2009.06.29 15:36:00 -
[10]
I don't really know much of the current balance in this regard (too new to ever have flown a capital), so can't really agree or disagree weither the current system is broken or not.
However, I love the idea of smaller ships targeting subsystems for entirely other reasons. It would be so Starwars :). You'd have some really big guns, and a bunch of smaller ships to protect them. And like in the attack on the Death Star in Starwars Episode 4, the fleets best pilot (Darth Vader) may very well choose to ride an interceptor and leave the big gun in the hands of the slightly less adept, since the interceptor's role bocemes so strategically vital.
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shady trader
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Posted - 2009.06.29 17:17:00 -
[11]
Edited by: shady trader on 29/06/2009 17:19:10 spelling corrections made The original idea sounds a lot like the world war II PT boats. Unarmored, packing significant firepower for their size and fast. If the enemy hit them they with any thing significant they were dead. However if they could get within range they could do significant damage.
Subsystem targeting is on the drawing board, I think the main reason CCP have not tried to implement yet it is the extra load on the sever.
I think a destroyer would be the wrong hull, partly because there is not a suitably sized micro warp drive or afterburner. Given this type of ship will be called primary in a lot of fleet battles it will need some sort of defense before it makes its attack run.
The basic design is a version of the interceptor crossed with the old stealth bomber. The speed of the interceptor and the ability of the stealth bomber to carry the missiles.
One other way to do this is produce a non stealth bomber with increased speed and bonuses to ECM but no cloak. Those buying time to get within range of its attack. It would have to be extremely CAP unstable to balance the fact its designed for bombing runs not a running fight.
Another solution is a one shot launcher, something you can load a very nasty weapon in (with significant tracking costs), but can only be reloaded at either a station or ship maintenance bay. Then interceptors could fill the role but at a cost of duration. Macrointel, the place were the nature order of the universe does not hold sway. Pirates and ore thief's are congratulated by carebears for the actions. |
AtheistOfDoom
Amarr The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.06.30 03:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Xavia Cameron
Add a new T2 destroyer, can't fit much of a tank, but goes fast, and fits citadel torps(For anti-cap goodness). Designed to rush a capital ship that perhaps fell behind its fleet, and scare the hell out of it before fleeing because they get popped by a mosquito.
Ok, I'm going to do this in caps so it might get through to all dense people:
CAPITAL DREAD WEAPONS ARE ONLY EFFECTIVE IN SIEGE, WE DO NOT NEED ANOTHER STEALTH BOMBER FOR CAP SHIPS.
thank you. And then, he killed the dog... |
Xavia Cameron
Caldari Capital Core Collectives manufacturing disaster
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Posted - 2009.06.30 06:14:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Xavia Cameron on 30/06/2009 06:16:18
Originally by: Valandril So i still don't see what is the issue, using proper tactics you CAN overcome overwhelming numbers and firepowers but indeed it's hard so working as intended.
My main gripe is that there is no stratergy that can overcome both at once. If they have better guns, you need more numbers. If they have more numbers you need.. More numbers? (Or titans = More firepower)
Originally by: AtheistOfDoom
Ok, I'm going to do this in caps so it might get through to all dense people:
CAPITAL DREAD WEAPONS ARE ONLY EFFECTIVE IN SIEGE, WE DO NOT NEED ANOTHER STEALTH BOMBER FOR CAP SHIPS.
thank you.
Whilst an accurate point and one that I agree with throughly, This is infact part of the issue. A dread needs to hit seige mode to do considerable damage to a super-cap, losing any and all strategic ability.
Infact, a mini-dread is more comparable to what I am suggesting, exept in the frig > cruiser hull range, with about a fifth of the damage, but ability to move while doings its damage. Edit: And with no tank whatsoever, it survives because it can GTFO out of a hairy situation -- Fix Clone Vat Bays Fix Local
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.06.30 20:03:00 -
[14]
We have small ship crowd who brag around they can kill morons in much larger ships cos of their player skills and strategy.
Now it can happen you meet cap ship crowd in large ships that cant be killed by morons in much smaller ships cos of player skills and strategy.
I cannot see a problem here. Balance looks pretty intact for me.
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Andres Talas
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Posted - 2009.07.01 03:49:00 -
[15]
The OP doesnt know what he's talking about.
http://bluep.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=569957
It's remarkably easy to kill caps and supercaps with subcaps, if you have your act together and they dont.
Finally, the OP should look at Counter-Support fits from some not-fail organsisation - I recommend looking in Kugu for -A-'s doctrine, and there's some good GS material floating out there as well.
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr Corp 1 Allstars
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Posted - 2009.07.01 04:21:00 -
[16]
So what would prevent the enemy of such a capital fleet to bring a whole fleet of these 'capital killers' and render the opponent's much more expensive fleet useless? Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Xavia Cameron
Caldari Capital Core Collectives manufacturing disaster
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Posted - 2009.07.01 06:40:00 -
[17]
My main point is not that capital ships and super caps don't die.
My main point is that the capital ship has to make a mistake to loose. There needs to be a stratergy that is not solved simply by not being stupid. These suggestions simply mean that you can kill a captial ship that is not in any way in the wrong, by allowing you to out maneouver it and score a kill.
A ship class that requires a pilot to make a fundemantal mistake is not a well balanced class.
And to answer The above posters question. Cruisers. That would stop these things dead in their tracks, and as a result shift more ships from the BS and up range to the lighter, frig to cruiser range. -- Fix Clone Vat Bays Fix Local
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Andres Talas
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Posted - 2009.07.01 08:58:00 -
[18]
Between cap-killing Curses, warp-preventing Dictors and Hictors and damage-negating Logistics, there are already plenty of ships that have a decisive effect on cap operations.
Look at the shiptypes on that Mothership we lost (ok, it was actually 2 motherships, a couple of carriers and a dread). See how they structured their fleet to neutralise cap ships.
Basically, Support and Counter-support is fine. You just need to learn 2 construct fleets.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.07.01 10:53:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 01/07/2009 10:55:13
Originally by: Grarr Dexx So what would prevent the enemy of such a capital fleet to bring a whole fleet of these 'capital killers' and render the opponent's much more expensive fleet useless?
5 sniper HACs? iirc sniper hacs pop destroyer hulls VERY fast. Its called having mixed fleets not only capital steamroll. But yeh OP's idea is what i said ages ago even when bombers were changed. Give us just typical anti-cap ship boat that delivers a LOT of damage but is fragile itself.
As for killing caps with subcaps. It works till caps get critical mass. At around 15-20 carriers in RR circle subcaps stop working (you need like 200BS then). Try typical nowadays cap fleet (100 dreads, 50 carriers) and subcaps cease to work.
EDIT: as for link above. They had 7 or so carriers + 3 moms. We had 6 falcons (pre-nerf). Thats enough to remove RR from 6 carriers.
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.07.01 13:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Xavia Cameron My main point is that the capital ship has to make a mistake to loose.
I dont agree. The attacker fleet has to make a mistake to fail to kill the caps, when the caps pilots are clever.
Most likley this mistake is to just show up in numbers without to coordinate fits: Random gangs.
When the caps pilots are not clever, even the random gang will be able to kill the caps.
Originally by: Xavia Cameron There needs to be a stratergy that is not solved simply by not being stupid.
Easy mode for stupid morons?
This would be the fist in the face for all the brainbugs out there, who enjoy about tactics, clever gears and how to outsmart the foe.
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