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Good Hedbergite
State Protectorate
Caldari State
0
   |
Posted - 2012.05.20 01:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm a new player (9M SP) returning after a two year hiatus. It seems the carebear vs PvPer mentalities haven't changed one bit, so I've come up with an idea that could encourage new players and carebears to actually WANT to get more involved with PvP and it's simple - hands on training!
The biggest part of the problem is that most noobs and carebears don't know how to fight and learning is a huge time and ISK investment they don't feel like making.
This time around, I'm much more interested in PvPing (I was a carebear last time) - so I don't mind spending the time and ISK - but here's the typical scenario for getting some practice at PvP:
Build a ship - 15-30 minutes
Fly to an area and hunt for a semi-fair fight - 15-30+ minutes
Fight and die - approx 3-5 minutes
So roughly an hour+ investment for 3-minutes of actual "fight training" - which is fine if you WANT to be a PvPer. If you're a carebear, it's a pain in the butt, a timesink, and all risk with no reward.
So? Where am I going with this - some type of training/arena area. This would build CONFIDENCE in new players and carebears and after a few arena-style fights (ie. 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5) - they would get tired of "practice" fights and be excited to get out there and actually participate in the real-deal.
There would be NO REWARDS - by doing so it would eliminate the possibility that people just login and fight in arena style situations. It certainly wouldn't pull existing PvPer's in, as they're already trained and can fight for REAL and make some great ISK by doing so... In fact, it would probably be a good idea to limit the number of fights to 1-2 per day so as to prevent the system from 'stealing' already existing PvPers away from real battle.
I could envision the ability to zone into a battleground type situation and purchase a standard pre-fit type of ship. If you want to learn electronic warfare, you could grab a Blackbird (or equivalent) with standard ECM gear equipped and go learn how to USE it against other players. You would also be able to learn to fly in a fleet in the 5v5 variations and learn the value of having a couple of frigs, an ECM boat, and a few BC/BS's.
This 1. gets rid of the time spent building ships and hunting for a fight 2. builds the desire and confidence of noobs and carebears to defend themselves and actually get more involved in the PvP world instead of crying about it and 3. would allow players to learn new types of ships and the 'stock' fittings associated with that playstyle before they dive into combat and get their ass handed to them.
Again, in no way would I want to see this system distract from the 'real-life' PvP that occurs - but it would be a great option for new players and carebears to learn and build confidence on HOW to participate in both solo and gang warfare. After a handful of skirmishes in a new type of boat, most players would be WANTING to get out there in 'real-life- and try it out in a genuine battle.
I'm interested in hearing thoughts on both how this idea could be better and implemented without impacting the natural flow of the 'real-world' in EvE - and also, feel free to punch holes in the idea as I'm sure there are reprecussions I'm not even thinking about.
Thanks for reading. |
Takseen
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
185
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 01:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Its not technically designed for it, but SiSi the testing server offers a lot of the features you requested.
-cheap ships
-no real penalties for dying
-lots of designated fighty areas
|
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
483
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 01:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arenas simply don't belong in EVE. As special events, sure, but not as a feature. For that, we have the test server.
In my opinion, a much better method would be to tie pvp into missions. Not that that would change much, since they'd just stop running missions anyway. These people are called carebears for a reason. They will use any excuse, and find any means, to avoid in-game situations that even slightly raise their heart rates. |
Klavis lychnuchus
Hotel Charlie
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 01:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
What we need are Tax bracket options for corpies, so a 23.5/7 rater has no barrier for entry to the corps and is left to do just what he loves but at a much higher tax rate. He Can rat all day everyday earning meaningful income from a Corp he would otherwise just be leaching from.
Those with the ambition and ability to defend themselves can do so too and pay less tax and be confident in a Corporations ship replacement program to be fit for purpose.
|
Knus'lar
Deep Void Industrial Group
T A B O O
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 01:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think the BEST way to get carebears to want to pvp is to take them and put them through a crucible of violence. Blow them up so much they harden into tough pirates |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
483
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 01:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Knus'lar wrote:I think the BEST way to get carebears to want to pvp is to take them and put them through a crucible of violence. Blow them up so much they harden into tough pirates
A lot of the people I've violenced over the years were originally carebears, and became bloodthirsty motherfuckers after I've had my way with them. Some have even become my most skilled and trusted EVE friends. Still, many more have left the game entirely after taking minor losses. That says a lot about the character of gamers nowadays. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
49
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 01:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:These people are called carebears for a reason. They will use any excuse, and find any means, to avoid in-game situations that even slightly raise their heart rates.
So, if I want to sit in safespot cloaked, I'm risk-averse carebear. It's not my job to help other people to destroy my ship. It's their job to find me. |
Red Teufel
Blackened Skies
THE UNTHINKABLES
52
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 01:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
it's called faction warfare. Though if corps or groups of people who are new to pvp want training and a home should contact me. |
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 02:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Knus'lar wrote:I think the BEST way to get carebears to want to pvp is to take them and put them through a crucible of violence. Blow them up so much they harden into tough pirates
You were toilet trained at gunpoint, weren't you? |
James 315
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
1734
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 02:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Quote:How to get carebears to WANT to PvP! No.
You've missed the whole point of non-consensual PvP. It doesn't matter if they want to PvP or not, just shoot them. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
1472
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 02:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
If people want to be carebears, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that - no need to try turning into something different - actually eve needs people mining all the trit.
The only problem with them is the insane amount of isk the mission running/highsec incursion fraction of them is spilling into the economy without them actually needing any isk - they don't need to replace any ships after all.
Yes - some of them may be alts of nullsec players who need the money to fund their pvp, but then, that raises the question why people have alts in highsec to fund their nullsec lives.
Nerf highsec bounties.
edit:
James 315 wrote:Quote:How to get carebears to WANT to PvP! No. You've missed the whole point of non-consensual PvP. It doesn't matter if they want to PvP or not, just shoot them.
There is no non-consensual PvP in Eve - you consent when you log on.
You know... morons. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1023
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 02:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Klavis lychnuchus wrote:What we need are Tax bracket options for corpies, so a 23.5 / 7 PVE monkey has no barrier for entry to the corps and is left to do just what he loves but at a much higher tax rate. He can rat/mission/plex all day everyday earning meaningful income for a Corp he would otherwise just be leaching from.
Those with the ambition and ability to defend themselves can do so too and pay less tax and be confident in a Corporations ship replacement program to be fit for purpose.
As a useful corallary they would perhaps take more interest in defending corp assets if they get put on a lower tax rate! If a player is running complexes/wormholes/mining you set all the taxes you want. The money you get from them would be pitifull.
Besides, this system is already kind of put in place. The 23/7 PvE ***** gets kicked, joins a renter corp. The renter corp pays money that goes to the PvP corps/alliances.
(admittedly the issue with this is that all that money goes straight to alliance leaders. And quite a few alliances are well known for having ISK quietly go missing, or for having leaders that just unashamedly steal.)
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
318
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 02:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
No, arena style PVP has proven to only discourage people from actually PVPing. The best example is runescape. People use to PVP all the time in the very large PVP area, but when it was reduced to just one arena it practically killed the the activity and about half of people's interest in that already ****** up game.
The reasons why arena PVP does not work are...
1. Everyone is clustered in one area making it a free for all with no thought or strategy. Think of first shaky cam clusterfuck in the Hunger Games movie. It's a lot like that. Everyone is dropping dead but nobody knows what the hell is going on.
2. It creates a larger skill/money gap. Because of the clusterfuck in arena PVP, the only people who stand a chance making it out alive are those with high skill levels and a lot of cash to afford the best gear. People already complain that there is a skill/isk gap preventing new players from getting into PVP, what more when new players stand no chance?
3. It gives a false perception of what PVP in this game actually is. There is a lot of coordination, time, effort and strategy to PVP in this game. Even blob warfare requires proper group coordination and making the right opponents primary. Just going to kill each other is not how PVP works in most MMOs. Also, with no rewards and no risks it encourages doing stupid things, something that will punish you severely in real PVP
4. It draws away from open ended PVP. Why spend 30 minutes trying to find a fair fight when you can jump into a mosh pit and be guaranteed to kill or be killed within the next 2 minutes? |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
485
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 02:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:If people want to be carebears, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that - no need to try turning into something different - actually eve needs people mining all the trit.
I would agree with this statement, if not for the fact that they're having a whole lot of success pressuring CCP to make massive concessions, and in turn changing the game into something it probably shouldn't be. |
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 02:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Add missions that have a slightly higher reward and make people fly in PvP fits, but add a little risk to them: the things they'll be doing will be PvP situations with NPCs that have fits and tactics you'll see. Then put those missions by the borders of low and send people there every now and then.
Large Collidable Object wrote:actually eve needs people mining all the trit.
Bring back gunmining and remove traditional mining. That'll give you trit.
I <3 Vexors. |
Ituhata Saken
Crimson Cross Destroyers
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 02:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Linna Excel wrote:Add missions that have a slightly higher reward and make people fly in PvP fits, but add a little risk to them: the things they'll be doing will be PvP situations with NPCs that have fits and tactics you'll see. Then put those missions by the borders of low and send people there every now and then.
I like it. If they geared missions to work or take advantage of typical pvp fits, people get familiar with them and if they do run into real players they might actually have a fighting chance that just doesn't exist in most pve builds. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
1472
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 02:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Large Collidable Object wrote:If people want to be carebears, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that - no need to try turning into something different - actually eve needs people mining all the trit. I would agree with this statement, if not for the fact that they're having a whole lot of success pressuring CCP to make massive concessions, and in turn changing the game into something it probably shouldn't be.
Yes - the highsec whiners and their continued success pose a problem. And yes - hulkageddon is perfectly justified for the rampant macroing (it's not even botting) that is still going on there.
However, a Tengugeddon would be the best thing that could possibly happen to eve.
You know... morons. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate
Sailors of the Sacred Spice
49
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 02:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
Arena ideas have been brought up over and over again, then shut down by people who don't want to see pvp happen...
The population of RvB indicates there's actually a big demand for pvp, just not the hours of roaming/camping/grinding before it. The next time you think of "forcing" carebears to pvp, realize that you won't have to, they already want it. It's actually a matter of forcing the hours of boredom before it onto them, and it's not going to work.
Hours of waiting before a few minutes of pvp, in any other game, would be considered a failure, to be fixed immediately. In Eve, it's called a sandbox, one that's ignored by 90% of the population deemed by the remaining 10% to be "carebears." |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
223
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 02:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
My opinion on arena style PvP is fairly simple and I'll stick by it: I don't want to see arenas in EVE; that is, places where people commit to consensual PvP with no cost or risk factor.
I wouldn't however mind if they made SiSi more accessible, or as an alternative, introduced station tactical simulations which opened up PvP onboard stations that provided instances of space from the EVE universe for people to PvP in. This should come with a cost however, such as a Training simulator registration fee and match fee.
Basic cost to register woul be simple enough, (maybe 1-10 million ISK or roughly the cost of a cruiser loss), and Match Fees could be roughly 1 Million ISK per 10 minute period. This allows control over the ISK sink for the player and provides a 'simulation' which the player then has a choice to enroll in vs. opponents he/she can choose from.
Essentially, you are introducing an ISK Sink coupled with a simulator in an environment that doesn't affect killboards or require asset purchase and/or loss. Additional fees for access to T2 or meta modules, Faction, complex, officer fittings and even special shiptypes could apply, but you never actually own anything and all you are doing is sinking ISK into a training simulator.
Might be fun and it keeps the arenas out of EVE, even if some people may consider this an arena. You could have leaderboards and the like too which might be a little bit of fun, and add some competition to it rather like a virtual bloodsport within EVE that some players try to get to the top rankings in.
Auction - EVE Rogues Alliance [ROGUE]: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1215438#post1215438-á-á~ Auction starts @ 20 Million ISK. |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
486
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 02:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:The population of RvB indicates there's actually a big demand for pvp, just not the hours of roaming/camping/grinding before it. The next time you think of "forcing" carebears to pvp, realize that you won't have to, they already want it. It's actually a matter of forcing the hours of boredom before it onto them, and it's not going to work.
They want it, eh?
So you're saying that spending time to hunt for targets is boring, but repeating the same hand motion to drop the same quantity of minerals from the cargohold to a container over and over again for hours isn't? Is that your argument? |
Pres Crendraven
30
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 02:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
I'm not sure you can turn carebears into PVP'er but I'm pretty sure you can turn PVP'er into carebears.
Crows used to **** prolifically on my van back in the nineties, so I posted an owl when ever I parked in the parking lot. In a couple of days they became very irreverent towards it as if to prove that it wasn't scary.
One day I parked and posted the owl and hid in the van with the rear door ajar.
As they began to rage and approach, I shot one with a high powered pellet rifle.
The screaming became intense so I shot another. About half flew away. The rest continued to rage about their two dead comrades so I shot another. More flew away. Now out of an initial flock of perhaps 200, there were only about six or eight left to raise ruckus. I shot another, they all went away.
For the next few years that I used that parking lot, there was no crow **** on my van.
They didn't know how the owl was doing it but they knew that the owl's presence meant dead crow.
Meta34me
Corp and Alliance details hidden to protect the innocent. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
674
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 03:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
Broken, old out dated, we didn't know how to create meaningful awesome content that is just the age old adaptation of other MMO's
Camping
Yup...broken and boring as ****.
1. Jump through a gate, align with a fast frigate...BLAM! by a high sensor resolution battleship supported by 3 other ships. Total time - 3 seconds
2. Set out, turn off safe route though lowsec as its only 8 jumps with 3 through lulz, tell yourself WTZ all the way as your in a fast align frig...BLAM! Land in a smartbomb battleship on the last incoming jump gate. Total time - 45 minutes
3. Spend three hours looking for an area to do PI using Dotlan, Last 24 hour ships destroyed, Last 24 hour pod destroyed,, load up the industrial and not even 3 jumps in...BLAM! Total time - 5 hours
End result...******* waste of time everytime. Sensor resolution and choke points to create meaningful content...only to lose in seconds short of the week and months spent training for your ships because EVE is not in fact space...its just perch points on select areas where no matter what direction you take and scout it all you want...there is always a guy down the hall with a shotgun waiting to shoot you in the face with it since CCP's brilliant niche game from 2003 is about as dated as EQ1. Try as you might, every trick short of the MWD+Cloak fails...so in fact the game fails since its so simple to up sensor resolution and someone always wins against you everytime. Why try entering the rest of the game, sure you can replace cheap ass ships...but you cannot replace the waste of time spent getting the isk to buy those ships and its just a waste of time to try enter space nobody wants you to enter since they want you their by demanding CCP move level 4s but infact they don't want you there since all they want are targets but it couldn't be those guys fault nobody goes there since all they do is shoot people (Predator vs Prey - wipe out the prey in a given area you will kill yourself since you can't force a prey into your hunting grounds) |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
697
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 04:57:00 -
[23] - Quote
Good Hedbergite wrote:I'm a new player (9M SP) returning after a two year hiatus. It seems the carebear vs PvPer mentalities haven't changed one bit, so I've come up with an idea that could encourage new players and carebears to actually WANT to get more involved with PvP and it's simple - hands on training!
The biggest part of the problem is that most noobs and carebears don't know how to fight and learning is a huge time and ISK investment they don't feel like making.
This time around, I'm much more interested in PvPing (I was a carebear last time) - so I don't mind spending the time and ISK - but here's the typical scenario for getting some practice at PvP:
Build a ship - 15-30 minutes
Fly to an area and hunt for a semi-fair fight - 15-30+ minutes
Fight and die - approx 3-5 minutes
So roughly an hour+ investment for 3-minutes of actual "fight training" - which is fine if you WANT to be a PvPer. If you're a carebear, it's a pain in the butt, a timesink, and all risk with no reward.
So? Where am I going with this - some type of training/arena area. This would build CONFIDENCE in new players and carebears and after a few arena-style fights (ie. 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5) - they would get tired of "practice" fights and be excited to get out there and actually participate in the real-deal.
There would be NO REWARDS - by doing so it would eliminate the possibility that people just login and fight in arena style situations. It certainly wouldn't pull existing PvPer's in, as they're already trained and can fight for REAL and make some great ISK by doing so... In fact, it would probably be a good idea to limit the number of fights to 1-2 per day so as to prevent the system from 'stealing' already existing PvPers away from real battle.
I could envision the ability to zone into a battleground type situation and purchase a standard pre-fit type of ship. If you want to learn electronic warfare, you could grab a Blackbird (or equivalent) with standard ECM gear equipped and go learn how to USE it against other players. You would also be able to learn to fly in a fleet in the 5v5 variations and learn the value of having a couple of frigs, an ECM boat, and a few BC/BS's.
This 1. gets rid of the time spent building ships and hunting for a fight 2. builds the desire and confidence of noobs and carebears to defend themselves and actually get more involved in the PvP world instead of crying about it and 3. would allow players to learn new types of ships and the 'stock' fittings associated with that playstyle before they dive into combat and get their ass handed to them.
Again, in no way would I want to see this system distract from the 'real-life' PvP that occurs - but it would be a great option for new players and carebears to learn and build confidence on HOW to participate in both solo and gang warfare. After a handful of skirmishes in a new type of boat, most players would be WANTING to get out there in 'real-life- and try it out in a genuine battle.
I'm interested in hearing thoughts on both how this idea could be better and implemented without impacting the natural flow of the 'real-world' in EvE - and also, feel free to punch holes in the idea as I'm sure there are reprecussions I'm not even thinking about.
Thanks for reading.
Its called the test server, it does everything you want described here and even cuts the time from build to pvp to mere seconds.
You should look into it
|
EvEa Deva
State War Academy
Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 07:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
Dead OP in the 2 years you were gone this subject has been beaten to death
Turns out this is a sandbox game and forcing a playstyle on people don't work.
The End |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
655
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 07:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
EvEa Deva wrote:Dead OP in the 2 years you were gone this subject has been beaten to death
Turns out this is a sandbox game and forcing a playstyle on people don't work.
The End
But you can bet that CCP Goonwave will keep trying.
EVE residents: 5% WH; 8% Lowsec; 15% Nullsec; 72% Highsec.
CSM 7: 1 highsec resident out of 14.-á
CSM demographics vs EVE demographics, nothing to worry about... |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
207
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 07:53:00 -
[26] - Quote
Good Hedbergite wrote:How to get carebears to WANT to PvP!
Work the shaft OBVIOUSLY!
EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
474
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 08:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
Why the hell would you want Carebears to PvP? If PvP is so damned popular, it would seem there's enough of you out there to PvP your little hearts out. This is way past ridiculous. Maybe what is needed is for some people to get off the junk food and get on the BRAIN food.
Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 08:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Large Collidable Object wrote:If people want to be carebears, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that - no need to try turning into something different - actually eve needs people mining all the trit. I would agree with this statement, if not for the fact that they're having a whole lot of success pressuring CCP to make massive concessions, and in turn changing the game into something it probably shouldn't be.
What does stop you, or what does stop any PVPer to try to get the same political clout with CCP? (If that clout even exists, which I doubt.) |
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 08:41:00 -
[29] - Quote
Romar Agent wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:Large Collidable Object wrote:If people want to be carebears, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that - no need to try turning into something different - actually eve needs people mining all the trit. I would agree with this statement, if not for the fact that they're having a whole lot of success pressuring CCP to make massive concessions, and in turn changing the game into something it probably shouldn't be. What does stop you, or what does stop any PVPer to try to get the same political clout with CCP? (If that clout even exists, which I doubt.)
It would be consensual political PVP  |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
492
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 08:47:00 -
[30] - Quote
Romar Agent wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:Large Collidable Object wrote:If people want to be carebears, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that - no need to try turning into something different - actually eve needs people mining all the trit. I would agree with this statement, if not for the fact that they're having a whole lot of success pressuring CCP to make massive concessions, and in turn changing the game into something it probably shouldn't be. What does stop you, or what does stop any PVPer to try to get the same political clout with CCP? (If that clout even exists, which I doubt.)
We try, but there's simply more of them. They start playing a new game, do so just long enough to ruin it, and then move on without any second thoughts or regrets. We are left to pick up the pieces and rebuild.
Do you think the people who whined about the privateers, for example, still play? I still have hundreds of war targets saved on one of my contact lists from as far back as 2008/2009, and believe me, I only see the bear ones sign on every blue moon. The pvper ones on the other hand... |
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