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Rant of the Month: Salvaging

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Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.09 09:33:00 - [31] Originally by: Marcus Gideon Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 08/07/2009 23:21:43 nice suggestion, but why should a ninja scan for abandoned battlefields with probably sorted out and worthless salvage instead of continuing probing straight for the mission runner, where all unsorted, "fresh" and therefore potentially valuable wrecks are?? Which is why I said I'd prefer for the Combat Probe approach to go away. Perhaps a tweak to Combat Probes, so a mission runner is obscured by the deadspace, unless they are a war target? no to this. You're pretending willing to make salvaging as profession but effectively your intents are protecting mission runners and their ISK.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.07.09 10:24:00 - [32] Originally by: Marcus Gideon Well it would seem that the Care Bears don't like having someone "steal" their wrecks, because they think they earned them (ammo spent, damage taken, etc.) I'd be inclined to agree. You can agree all you want — it doesn't make them (or you) any less wrong. They didn't earn the salvage for one simple reason: if they did, they would have it in their cargo holds already. If someone else beat them to the punch, that person earned it. The ammo spent, damage taken etc. is already compensated for by the mission rewards, bounties, LP, standings and loot you get. Salvage is not part of the package — it's something extra that you have to earn by putting in additional effort. As PrismX says: "[salvaging is] a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding". If you want to partake in that activity alongside your mission grinding, you're free to do so. If others want to do it without the tedium of running missions, they're free to do so as well. If someone scans your mission down and managed to salvage the wrecks before you do, they've put as much work into it as you have (more, in fact, since you just had to move over to where the wreck is) and thus have earned what they get. You already have first dibs by being there and knowing exactly when and where the wreck will appear. If you fail to win the race with the ninja salvagers (one that's heavily lopsided already in your favour), it's your own fault for being so incompetent, and you deserve to come back empty-handed… Oh and Quote: Separating wrecks from loot will make it plainly obvious to everyone that "This jet can is yours, the wreck is free." This is already obvious. It's just that people refuse to accept it. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.09 10:32:00 - [33] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 09/07/2009 10:34:00 the loot has to be free as well. See player wreck mechanics where the ownership is correctly implemented and kept by the original owner.
leich Amarr Knights of the Old Empire	Posted - 2009.07.09 11:10:00 - [34] Salavge is not your. This dosent just apply to mission but ratting and plexing aswell. It is a valid profession. We do it not for the money but the newb tears lol. I can make 40mil/hour salvaging a good system in 0.0, and most people are happy to let you do it.
Paul Clavet Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.07.09 13:56:00 - [35] Hi. I'm Paul Clavet from http://mylootyourtears.com, and I approve of this thread. The "rolling their faces around on their keyboards" rage log that Khalia posted, which the missionbears in this thread point to as evidence that we're in it for grief, was the result of a missionbear in a Typhoon shooting at my Firetail while I was LOOTING, thus he did so with full aggro. Of course, this gave me aggro as well, and I returned with an unassisted Caracal and liberated his ship. On our last group op, a faction-fitted Dominix fired on a ninja that looted. That ninja returned with a Drake and blew up the missionrunner. About an hour later, a faction-fitted CNR fired on two ninjas, who came back in a Thorax and an Abaddon and destroyed two billion ISK worth of stupidly-fit ship. All of this is documented on my blog. If you don't "get" that, go back and read those again. Then think about your suggestion that salvaging give aggro. Is that really what you want? More missionrunners in PvE-fit ships firing on disposable ninja frigates, giving them aggro. Really? I loot primarily to get aggro. Looting is a pain. I'd rather just salvage. Yeah, let the missionrunners shoot at me when I salvage. That would actually help out a lot. What you really want is a way to be left in your own instanced little world when missioning. CCP has repeatedly said that Eve is not a safe place, and you should have no expectation of being left completely alone unless you are in a station with all communication blocked. If you want complete safety from anyone not wanting to play by your rules, you should consider getting a game console and some single-player games. This is Eve. We're out here waiting for you. Come play with us! ---- Suddenly Ninjas Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
Galmarr Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.07.09 14:33:00 - [36] I concur as an eyewitness to these events. Paul, when I grow up, I want to be like you.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.07.09 16:02:00 - [37] Originally by: Khalia Nestune But mission runners are LAZY, and GREEDY. So they don't want to wait, they don't want to split profits, and they don't want to go slower. They want EVERYTHING and they WANT IT NOW. Actually, I quite like the idea of splitting profits and sharing the work. I don't particularly like looting and salvaging and it can actually be difficult to do with a combat ship - mostly due to the small cargo holds and the need to carry ammo in them. If a 'ninja' asked to partner with me on missions I'd happily split the rewards with them and enjoy the company - but the ones I've encountered don't. They just wander in and grab stuff, usually without even saying hi. Cooperation is nice -and to be honest I like the idea of salvagers and mission runners working together as opposed to against one another. It's not the loss of money that angers me, it's the rudeness and arrogance. Ask to partner, and do it honestly and I'll say yes virtually every time. Jump into my mission space and start messing around and I'll do my best to counter you, whether shooting the wrecks or letting the rats have you or just suiciding you. It's not about the money - it's about the attitude. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.07.09 16:07:00 - [38] Originally by: Paul Clavet If you don't "get" that, go back and read those again. Then think about your suggestion that salvaging give aggro. Is that really what you want? More missionrunners in PvE-fit ships firing on disposable ninja frigates, giving them aggro. Really? Yes, really. It would elimate the casual griefers (which are most of the 'ninjas' and leave the real, no kidding ninjas who aren't an embarrassment to the name. So yes, really, it's what a lot of us want. At least if we saw that you were getting aggro and knew that then we could make a logical decision as to whether or not to fire. We could do so and then go and get our PvP ships and have some fun shooting at one another - as opposed to being frustrated and annoyed which is what leads to what you are putting in your blog. So, yes again. It's what we want. Those of us who are serious about it anyway. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
GreenYoshi	Posted - 2009.07.09 16:09:00 - [39] I love it when people tell me to go do my own missions, or think that I'm incapable. They don't realize that I can make 30-40m per hour just picking and choosing large wrecks to salvage. I love it when people shoot me, thinking they'll get away with it, or kill me in one shot once I've stolen. They don't realize that the gank Tempest is sitting in my hangar, and I can make more off of ransoms than anyone can make off of missions. I love it when people say that salvage should belong to them because they created it. They don't realize that this is exactly what happened with loot, and now you hear whines to the tune of, "This person stole my loot, and came back and shot me WTF?" They also don't realize that this is exactly how the game is meant to be played. Stop whining about salvage; it's not going to change.
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.07.09 16:13:00 - [40] Originally by: Marcus Gideon So *HERE* is how to solve the dilemma. It's called the war declaration mechanic. -/ the fighting republicans /-
ChinaWillGrowLarger Heretic Command	Posted - 2009.07.09 16:15:00 - [41] Originally by: GM Faolchu This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Originally by: GM Ytterbium Also, this change has nothing to do with salvaging rights themselves as they remain untouched. Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will, no matter if they belong to the same corporation or not and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Originally by: CCP PrismX If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.07.09 16:26:00 - [42] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Marcus Gideon So *HERE* is how to solve the dilemma. It's called the war declaration mechanic. The only ninjas I've personally encountered have been in NPC corps. Hence - unwardeccable. Interestingly even Suddenly Ninjas, which used to pride itself on accepting wardecs, now shows as being part of an Alliance. Alliances are extremely expensive to wardec making them difficult to dec for smaller corps. Nice idea, but sadly it doesn't work. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.07.09 16:29:00 - [43] Originally by: GM Faolchu Originally by: GM Ytterbium Originally by: CCP PrismX Quoting GMs is pointless. They're required to support the current CCP position regardless of what it is, so that's just wasted text. And yes, everyone knows PrismX's position. Of course, CCP is more than just one person. Your 'argument' is just 'it's the status quo' once again without addressing why the status quo is better than proposed changes. There is no argument above. Discussions require one. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.07.09 16:32:00 - [44] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom So yes, really, it's what a lot of us want. At least if we saw that you were getting aggro and knew that then we could make a logical decision as to whether or not to fire. We could do so and then go and get our PvP ships and have some fun shooting at one another - as opposed to being frustrated and annoyed which is what leads to what you are putting in your blog. So what are you willing to give up in exchange for this rather substational mission-running buff? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Paul Clavet Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.07.09 16:34:00 - [45] Originally by: Tippia So what are you willing to give up in exchange for this rather substational mission-running buff? QFT. It's interesting how every "solution" to the "problem" proposed by missionbears involves discarding existing CCP policy, making it easier to AFK mission, and destroying the entire subculture of ninja salvaging. ---- Suddenly Ninjas Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
Paul Clavet Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.07.09 16:36:00 - [46] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Interestingly even Suddenly Ninjas, which used to pride itself on accepting wardecs, now shows as being part of an Alliance. Alliances are extremely expensive to wardec making them difficult to dec for smaller corps. Nice idea, but sadly it doesn't work. It's what, 100 million per week? That's four man-hours of running L4 missions. How is that difficult for the types of corps most impacted by Suddenly Ninjas? ---- Suddenly Ninjas Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.07.09 16:43:00 - [47] Originally by: Paul Clavet It's what, 100 million per week? That's four man-hours of running L4 missions. How is that difficult for the types of corps most impacted by Suddenly Ninjas? Mmmmhmmmm. So let's see - your argument is "I get to grief you unless you want to give up even BIGGER chunks of your profit." Sure. Why'd you put the Alliance in place then, if not to make wardecs harder? Since you don't hold Sov or need to defend space the only reason I can think of to have one is to intentionally make wardecs more expensive. Were the wars interfering too much with your salvaging? May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.07.09 16:48:00 - [48] Originally by: Tippia So what are you willing to give up in exchange for this rather substational mission-running buff? What buff? Being able to shoot at people who might well shoot back will almost certainly COST money in lost ships as no one wins every fight. Yes, it will discourage the care-ninjas without any PvP skill or ability, but then, there should be some risk for that reward, no? I've seen salvagers in this thread claim they make as much as mission runners do running L4s (if that claim is true they make MORE than I do running L4s) but no one shoots at them and Concord protects them. Yes, it's a nerf to salvaging without permission. Many folks think that needs one as there is no risk to that reward and not even any expenditure. Even if you want to consider mission running risk-less (which it isn't unless you cheat or have a hugely expensive ship) it still costs in ammo and expendables etc. Ninjas don't even have those costs. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.07.09 16:53:00 - [49] Edited by: Jarvis Hellstrom on 09/07/2009 16:53:48 Originally by: Paul Clavet QFT. It's interesting how every "solution" to the "problem" proposed by missionbears involves discarding existing CCP policy, making it easier to AFK mission, and destroying the entire subculture of ninja salvaging. I see pretty much the entire culture of ninja salvaging as little more than arrogant self important carebear griefing. By all means, bring on its destruction! Also, CCP policies get changed all the time. Yours eventually will too - it's only a matter of time. Might take a year or so, but they'll get around to you eventually. By the way - you cannot AFK mission run and salvage. In order to salvage and loot you have to be present and involved. Most AFK mission runners don't even bother with the wrecks, it's all bounty, LP and blitzing. If you look at other mission run threads I've posted in you will also see that I support (pretty rabidly) lots of things that would make AFK mission running impossible. I loathe such behavior and want missions to be engaging, challenging and risky. I just don't like griefers. It's that simple. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.07.09 17:32:00 - [50] Edited by: Tippia on 09/07/2009 17:34:36 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Tippia So what are you willing to give up in exchange for this rather substational mission-running buff? What buff? The buff that makes salvage a part of the mission rewards. What are you willing to give up for that bonus? Quote: Even if you want to consider mission running risk-less (which it isn't unless you cheat or have a hugely expensive ship) it still costs in ammo and expendables etc. Ninjas don't even have those costs. You're already being compensated for those (minuscule) risks and expenditures. Salvage is not a part of that compensation. Ninjas put as much effort into getting that salvage (more, in fact), and are therefore as entitled to it as you are. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.09 17:40:00 - [51] you're killing/raping/pirating tons of NPCs, stole their loot and salvage their ships, which arent actually YOUR stuff and in the same time whine about others who "steal" "your" stuff what is actually not yours?? C'mon, get serious and stop spamming salvage threads already!!
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.07.09 18:04:00 - [52] Originally by: Phantom Phenix I'm not a full time carebear, I live in 0.0 and love pvp but every so often I come to empire and mission run to buy more ships, I'd just rather be left in peace so I can get back out fighting again faster. I'm a bit confused here. Let me see if I understand this: We, who live in high sec and salvage wreaks created by mission runners in high sec, are being told by someone who lives in 0.0, and who only occasionally comes into high sec to run missions, to leave him alone when he runs missions in high sec? Go back to 0.0 and stay out of high sec where the real Men and Women are. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.07.09 18:06:00 - [53] Originally by: Paul Clavet If you don't "get" that, go back and read those again. Then think about your suggestion that salvaging give aggro. Is that really what you want? More missionrunners in PvE-fit ships firing on disposable ninja frigates, giving them aggro. Really? You are a moron and talk about stuff which is clearly out of scope. Okay maybe i should explain it because it seems like you really beleave what you are writing: facts: 1) most of the current salvaging threads asks for flag mechanic# 2) the ninja salvager can flag easily by stealing loot - when he wants to do so 1+2 = your described problem is not existing, because actually the ninjas already proven that they are not interested into engagements.
Galmarr Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.07.09 18:22:00 - [54] Please lock this. Please?
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.07.09 18:23:00 - [55] Quote: Please lock this. Please? Because of your flawless argument?
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.07.09 18:25:00 - [56] how about making everything floating in space public property like it should be furthermore, mission running deteriorates your brain so you should be limited to one mission per day for medical reasons.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.07.09 18:28:00 - [57] Originally by: Tippia The buff that makes salvage a part of the mission rewards. You mean the situation, for the most part, as it already exists? I can't speak for others but I very very rarely see a ninja salvager and on the rare occasion I do he usually goes off empty handed. That salvage is already mine well over 99% of the time - I'm not going to notice any difference. Quote: Ninjas put as much effort into getting that salvage (more, in fact), and are therefore as entitled to it as you are. Stuff and nonsense of the highest order. Probing out missions takes little time and little skill (either character or player). Running a salvage unit takes even less. The ships involved cost next to nothing and expend no ammunition or other items. Compare that to the months and months of missioning to be able to even TALK to an L4 agent, the required cost of the ship needed to survive in an L4 and the time it takes to run one. Ninja salvagers need none of these things. Heck they don't even get shot at by RATS much less players. They just fly over to someone's mission - a mission that they could never generate on their own, and take stuff from wrecks they could never create on their own. I don't know where you get this idea that it's more effort, but I've seen nothing to indicate that in the least. Out in 0.0 I'm actually one of the few folks who DO salvage - so I have experience in it as well as mission running and it's much easier and less resource demanding - and I need a much tougher ship than I use to salvage in Empire! May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.07.09 18:30:00 - [58] Originally by: Kel Nissa Quote: Please lock this. Please? Because of your flawless argument? He's getting tired of confronting logic and facts with 'Because CCP says I can.' May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Marcus Gideon Gallente The NightClub	Posted - 2009.07.09 18:35:00 - [59] Originally by: Galmarr Please lock this. Please? I agree. No one is reading this topic, they're only seeing "another ninja whine" and repeating their rhetoric. YES, WE ALL KNOW CCP SAYS SALVAGING IS LEGAL. The point is... make the wrecks more plainly obvious that they are public property. Then no one will have any evidence to the contrary. As it stands wrecks are only tractorable by the victor. That's why everyone thinks they belong to them... because its got their name on it. If wrecks were neutral, and loot were in a tagged Jet Can, then no one would have any reason to say "That was my wreck" other than greed. Making the wrecks easier to find, than the players who created them, will further validate the insistence of everyone who chants like a zombie "CCP said" and quoting the same single CCP employee. Excuse the ** out of me, but I think there are at least a few more people who work for CCP besides Prism. But *, for as little as they every contribute to these forums, you have to quote the hell out of them when they do. "God spoke to me, he said salvaging is good"* So making them a detectable site would only allow for less effort in tracking down players, and more time spent salvaging wrecks. If you insist on using Combat Probes, instead of the cheaper and easier to fit, Core Probes... you're probably with Suddenly Ninjas, and only want to grief. I agree, they have no intentions of pursuing Salvaging as a profession. They have no desire to make ISK from it. They only want to harass other players from the safety of their parents' basements. And although everyone in EVE is free to spend their subscription time doing what they like... simple minds I suppose. 1) Separating wrecks and loot would only make ninja'ing easier. Imagine probing them down, and being free to tractor rather than float from one to the next. 2) Beacons would only make ninja'ing easier. Not only could you scan them down faster than an obscured player inside a deadspace pocket, but you could also find the sites that have been left behind and forgotten by someone otherwise interested in bounties and LP. 3) Scanning for sites would also lead to players finding the already available Mag sites which contain rewards of their own. Not only can you scavenge behind a player, you can collect what's been provided by CCP. If you're interested in an actual Salvaging PROFESSION, feel free to provide constructive critism. If you're only interested in griefing, or belong to Suddenly Ninjas at all... DIAF.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.07.09 18:37:00 - [60] Something amusing just occurred to me. In 0.0 very few folks bother with wrecks other than from major fleet battles. It's extremely rare that anyone will salvage or even loot a non-officer wreck. On a busy day in many 0.0 hubs there are so many ratters generating wrecks that you could keep a half dozen salvagers busy doing nothing else. Yet there are very few salvagers out there - where they would be perfectly welcome. They'd rather haunt Hi-sec and generate grief for people who would prefer to be left alone. Why is that? May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)

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