You have drawn several fallacious conclusions from an isolated incident enacted and participated in solely by individual corporations of capsuleers.

You do an extreme disservice to the Federation by claiming it is a puppet of the Empire and an even greater disservice to the Empire by claiming we need puppets to defend ourselves. You may have the upper-hand in the war effort at this time but the Empire is far from finished.

You are right sir, Wolfsbrigade did enter into a diplomatic effort to have our forces look away from their system at the expense of your entire war effort, apparently thinking that they were the most important entity in your Empire. I am sorry that they have betrayed all of you and I would say that you brand them enemiesof the Empire and treat them as such.

As to the question of Shadows of the Federation I again state that this is either a prelude to changing political relations between the Republic or yet another splinter group that needs to be dealt with by their own. That being said I would think that it may be possible for Minmatar forces to join both Gallente and Amarr forces to deal with these traitors.

I would brand them as traitors as the effect of the pact was "Dont attack our one system and we will give you free reign to attack the rest of our empires systems without reprisal from us". That is Traitor acts no matter how you look at it. They sold the rest of the Amarr Militia to save their own asses.

it is now clear that the Federation has become a puppet state to the Amarr Empire.

I should clarify that from my individual perspective, WBR promoted dishonor, disloyalty and treachery by participating in this event. Such behavior leaves me with an ill taste in my mouth, but I cannot speak on behalf of the whole Empire nor the 24IC in how this event will affect WBR in relation to them.

Proof of this pact where they state their disregard for all other systems currently being contested would help elicit a response, I imagine.

I would have to contest your viewpoint, Captain Shogaatsu. The planets (and their inhabitants) are hardly inconsequential or useless and when the systems change occupancy, the planets come under the leadership (and occupancy) of the occupying power.

You also may wish to recall the Emergency Militia Powers Act which is actually responsible for the ongoing war between capsuleers loyal to their respective empires. It may not appear like much is being accomplished from the space side of things, but on the planets in those relevant systems, the constant changes in occupancy do matter and I imagine those under those conditions live very difficult lives.

Oh I understand, I know the planets (and their ubiquitous populations of bipedal fungus) are quite important to the miserable unfortunates still trapped in their gravity wells. I also understand that having to switch between State and Federal bureaucracy every few weeks could be annoying for the little buggers. I just don't care. It's not like we're going to run out of humans, and their opinions on capsuleers are quite clear. They don't like me, and I don't like them.

What grabs my attention is the utter pointlessness of this warfare. More so however, my attention is drawn to the fact that no-one else seems to see what I see. What lasting goals have been achieved with this constant to-and-fro trading of system ownership?

You show concern for planet-dwellers and their tiny, pointless lives, so explain how you justify the loss of life of capsuleer ship crews (which are drawn from those wretched gravity-balls) on a conflict which has not achieved any goal, nor affected the political makeup of New Eden in the slightest.

Careful Shogaatsu, we wouldn't want the militia fighters to actually reflect on what they've been preoccupied with for the last several years.

You show concern for planet-dwellers and their tiny, pointless lives, so explain how you justify the loss of life of capsuleer ship crews (which are drawn from those wretched gravity-balls) on a conflict which has not achieved any goal, nor affected the political makeup of New Eden in the slightest.

What you don't seem to understand is that goals are being accomplished, perhaps not as readily as we'd prefer them to and certainly not as quickly as if this war were being fought without the presence of self-proclaimed immortals, but they are being accomplished nonetheless. Those of us that fight to secure our borders and defend them from further incursion are doing all we can to bring a stalemate to the war(s) and security for those on the planets within.

Those of us that fight to secure our borders and defend them from further incursion are doing all we can to bring a stalemate to the war(s) and security for those on the planets within.

Another day, another rain of podder ship fragments. A Raven class piloted by some ignorant **** saw fit to warp into low orbit of our fair planet while pursued by our star system's welcoming committee, who predictably scored a wealth of modules from the wreckage that didn't plummet to our fair planet. As a result of these new developments, Reitsato Prime boasts five new 50-kilometre craters, and a 1200-kilometre radiation exclusion zone due to the still-live battleship reactor that landed in our primary farming sectors, killing thousands. **** you, podders.

Please aid us. Our capsuleer-promised order is breaking down. Both factions are now heavily armed and our government is powerless to stop the fighting, as most of the local police have chosen sides too. Each claim that a single capsuleer ship can turn the tide to their side. They keep sending up signals but all we get is random laser fire against our population centers!

I would have to contest your viewpoint, Captain Shogaatsu. The planets (and their inhabitants) are hardly inconsequential or useless and when the systems change occupancy, the planets come under the leadership (and occupancy) of the occupying power.

You also may wish to recall the Emergency Militia Powers Act which is actually responsible for the ongoing war between capsuleers loyal to their respective empires. It may not appear like much is being accomplished from the space side of things, but on the planets in those relevant systems, the constant changes in occupancy do matter and I imagine those under those conditions live very difficult lives.

Yeaaaaaaah, something tells me we're not bringing them much security.

Do not confuse the people really responsible for this wasteful war. CONCORD were merely the ones enabling the Militia Emergency Power Act. The ones that really wanted that war were the four nations themselves. The only reason that happened is because they still hold a little power in CONCORD administration. The Militia Power Act is nothing else than a political tool, and your own Empire was involved in its creation.

Self-Imposed shackles, namely those worn by capsuleers, are the most amusing of all.

I will not deny that the major nations were behind EMPA, nor will I deny that the war is something all sides want(ed) at some point. What I am saying is that we have the power, as the ones fighting the war(s), to bring them to a stand still and cease the turmoil caused by them.

Capsuleers have the raw power, but real power lies in the money they are promised to fight in this war. You will get better results by convincing each governement or even better, their populations, than convincing militia capsuleers to boicott that war.

I will not deny that the major nations were behind EMPA, nor will I deny that the war is something all sides want(ed) at some point. What I am saying is that we have the power, as the ones fighting the war(s), to bring them to a stand still and cease the turmoil caused by them.



What you call 'shackles,' I call conviction.

In case you master strategists haven't noticed, you're fighting over a back yard of largely unwanted systems seen as disposable enough by the leaders of your nations to let capsuleers run rough-shod over them. Said systems have traded hands multiple times, with no bearing on New Eden at large, no victory or defeat for any of the participant empires, and no long-term strategic or tactical goals met.

An utterly meaningless war fought over utterly useless systems. And you brag about flipping the ownership flag on a handful of those? Psh. Goonswarm managed to besiege Jita and put a big dent in the State's economy - you'll have to top them if this "war" is to go anywhere.

What grabs my attention is the utter pointlessness of this warfare. More so however, my attention is drawn to the fact that no-one else seems to see what I see. What lasting goals have been achieved with this constant to-and-fro trading of system ownership?

If you really need proof that the war is a sham, I suggest you consider the fact that the Caldari 'won' a few years ago by occupying the entirety of the war zone. Did it change anything long term? F*** no.

Furthermore, I am personally shamed that WBR once hailed from the State and now condones acts of piracy in this manner. The lack of official response from WBR denouncing these allegations compounds my concern.

Oh, and draining wallets and stealing assets isn't the most profitable method of extracting wealth from others any longer. We've moved on to more efficient, less time-intensive means.

Yes. What a surprise, WBR pirates no..

I admit that I am surprised. People usually put their fingers into their hears when someone dares to tell them that militias are full of outlaws, pirates and parasites. I guess one of them had yet to side with the enemy for people to actually care ?

While i have the utmost respect for the Pilots and Commanders of the SOTF, i cannot in good faith support their actions.

I would like to assure our Minmatar Brethren that the actions of the SOTF were of their own accord. The do not represent the Federal Defence Union as a whole in any way. You can understand that they are a sub unit within an organisation within the Federal Milita.

From the unofficial chatter within the Villore Accords, i have seen many condemnations of SOTF's alignment. As an ex-SOTF Pilot, i am sadden to hear this news

We are immortal now, let the petty and the limited fight amongst themselves.

Correct me if I am wrong, but are there not corporations working to remove pirate elements from within militias? I can think of at least two right from the start. To state that someone had to side with the enemy to get people to actually care is a discredit to those actively working against piracy in the militias already.

People usually put their fingers into their hears when someone dares to tell them that militias are full of outlaws, pirates and parasites.

the almost universal response when people state the obvious truth about the militias is to go "nope, everything's fine, you're lying, la la la la la la la".

Weird. So far I thought it was universally known that the militias are full of piratical elements, and the reactions I have seen so far have been mostly that this is considered a necessary evil and mainly acceptable because those elements happen to shoot in the right direction. (Which explains the outcry here: The piratical elements started shooting in the wrong direction.)

I guess shades of grey are not for everyone. A universe in black and white is so much simpler.

Because we're sitting back with smug looks on our faces, drink in hand and a bowl of snacks next to us, watching the drama unfold, saying, "we told you so."

There are many corporations within each of the militias that use their parent militia as little more than an excuse to not receive slaps on the wrist from CONCORD when attacking a large chunk of the other pilots in lowsec. They still happily "go flashy" on anything else that moves, militia or otherwise.

... Says the registered TLF pilot. A rather illuminating, if entirely unsurprising statement.

I care because I know how to prosecute a war, and if I were in charge of the State's efforts, Luminaire wouldn't exist anymore, and the Gallente would be an endangered species, viewable only in a selection of Amarr zoos.

You're point, other than to gripe about the moral standards of your opponent? I have no interest in corporate affairs or running business, just the business of war. The TLF i a good resource for that.

And it may have escaped your notice but Concord just opened up the market for Mercenaries, you may be seeing me on more than one battle front in the near future.

With all due respect to you and yours Morwen, this statement alone indicates why I place exactly zero value on your opinion in this regard. You're doing nothing about it, but you feel justified in standing on the outside and pointing at the faults, failures and unfortunate impotence of those who are trying to do something about it.

I will not deny that there are likely those who simply choose to ignore piratical elements in their own militias. I will also not deny that ferreting out those piratical elements is a task far beyond the capabilities of a few small corporations alone.

However, the notion that nobody responds to it until something like this happens is entirely false and continuing to claim it is a blatant discredit to those actively attempting to do something about it.

You don't have to like that we've been saying this from day one, but you can't deny that we're right, and that we did in fact tell you so.

You don't have to like that we've been saying this from day one, but you can't deny that we're right, and that we did in fact tell you so. At some point, it becomes clear that people like having their fingers wedged into their ear canals, and the only thing you can do is sit back and watch the fireworks.

I am doing nothing overt, precisely because I know nothing can be done about it except making loud noises in the direction of CONCORD and the militias' overseers, and even that's not guaranteed to work. No capsuleer entity can force an individual pilot or corporation (or, for that matter, alliance) out of the militia, aside from the aforementioned two parties (CONCORD and the militias' overseers) and the individual/corp/alliance in question. That is how "far beyond" that task is. It's simply not possible through means available to us as capsuleers. There is also a very big difference between ignoring a problem, and stating it doesn't exist or doesn't matter. The latter is what almost always happens when someone from the militia is confronted with the facts. Not the former.

As for trying to dispute the idea that nobody ever really gets up in arms about it until **** like this happens, I've got several years of experience that says otherwise.

You want the problem to be fixed? Convince your masters to find ways to encourage focus on valid targets in the war front and actively discourage work outside of it against people who are not involved. Wasting your time trying to force your misbehaving militiamates to vacate the premises doesn't help anyone, least of all yourselves.

[quote=AsheRaven]
The "Mercenary Marketplace," or whatever they're calling it, did not escape my notice. What might've escaped yours is that you won't be doing any work through it with your current employer.

Correct me if I am wrong, but are there not corporations working to remove pirate elements from within militias? I can think of at least two right from the start. To state that someone had to side with the enemy to get people to actually care is a discredit to those actively working against piracy in the militias already.

Weird. So far I thought it was universally known that the militias are full of piratical elements, and the reactions I have seen so far have been mostly that this is considered a necessary evil and mainly acceptable because those elements happen to shoot in the right direction. (Which explains the outcry here: The piratical elements started shooting in the wrong direction.)

I guess shades of grey are not for everyone. A universe in black and white is so much simpler.

If it were universally known, what would be the point in denying it to be the case?

With all due respect to you and yours Morwen, this statement alone indicates why I place exactly zero value on your opinion in this regard. You're doing nothing about it, but you feel justified in standing on the outside and pointing at the faults, failures and unfortunate impotence of those who are trying to do something about it

Here we go again. "You are not involved nor are you fighting against it, so you know nothing or are not in position to speak about it.

Well then, we are no politicians so we can not talk about politics, we are no painters so we can not talk about painting (etc) ?

You can still talk about something without being a certified expert in it. Of course though, a certified expert will certainly weight a lot more.

. Please do not discredit all of them collectively and standing aside saying "we told you so" does not constructively assist the situation at all.

Farel,

I did not say she had no authority to speak or discuss it, I said that I personally placed zero value on her opinion because she's not actively involved. Please try and read what was said, not what you interpreted.

Your second statement illustrates the idiocy involved in that sort of rationalization, the very same sort of rationalization that I didn't participate in.

You overestimate yourself. A far more likely outcome to such a modus operandi would be both sides mortally wounded, choking on dust and smoke, fighting pointlessly with the last few soldiers they had left.

I admit that I am surprised. People usually put their fingers into their hears when someone dares to tell them that militias are full of outlaws, pirates and parasites. I guess one of them had yet to side with the enemy for people to actually care ?

Farel,

I will try and explain this reasonably because we appear to have a failure in communication.

First, I did not say your statement was an idiocy, I said that it is representative of the kind of idiocy that comes from the rationalization you presented as an accusation against me. I was not attacking your statement, I was agreeing that the conclusions that can be drawn using that form of logic are idiocy.

Furthermore, the result is not the same. Morwen has every right to voice her opinion and her standpoint and I would never say she didn't, what I did explain is that because her attitude is to simply "stand back and watch the chaos," I personally put no value to her opinion. That does not make her opinion invalid as a whole, it only makes it invalid to me. Beyond that, and I realize this was a fault of mine, the second statement was not a qualifier to the first, they were two separate thoughts. In other words, I put zero value on her opinion because of her attitude and how she approaches the situation and then explain that because she's not actively involved she does not necessarily have the full scope of the situation. Nothing more and nothing less.

This statement referred collectively to "people." I responded by making it clear that there are at least some elements in the militias working toward combating piracy and they should not be discredited. From there, it escalated into this discussion. It was not an attempt to vilify you or your statements, it was an attempt to make it clear that not everyone in the militia is putting their fingers in their ears, so to speak.

All I did was point out that there are also many who don't do either and, in fact, actively work against it and they should be given credit for their efforts.

I care because I know how to prosecute a war, and if I were in charge of the State's efforts, Luminaire wouldn't exist anymore, and the Gallente would be an endangered species, viewable only in a selection of Amarr zoos.

Oh, and draining wallets and stealing assets isn't the most profitable method of extracting wealth from others any longer. We've moved on to more efficient, less time-intensive means.

Just last week I was explaining to some old officer how you could hide a small chemical weapon in the ventilation system of a cruiser.

But they are credited for their efforts. I am still not sure what you are trying to achieve since the beginning ?

I object to the notion that this represents more than an act of betrayal by a single rebel element in the Gallente militia. As a long serving general in the Tribal Liberation Force, I have never, ever, seen a supposed Gallente ally act with such dishonour. This group were not just bound to the TLF by the virtue of having mutual enemies, Late Night Alliance had negotiated friendly standings which apparently meant nothing to them in the end. This standing has been revoked.

To my Gallente brethren, the timing of this treachery is unprecedented, and I empathise with the uncomfortable position SOTF has put you all in. Deal with these scum as you see fit, but If you choose to ignore this incident don't be surprised if the weapons of LNA are trained on them if they choose to cross our paths. This is not a threat, only a warning that fighting side by side with these elements may leave your fleets with less firepower than you had anticipated.

A traitor who betrays an ally for the sake of a friend is still a traitor.

There is no honor in what you have done and those who accept it share in your treachery and dishonor.

I will personally be willing to fly beside anyone that turns their guns to your hulls and burns your treasonous filth from the stars.

But you seem to be threatening to shoot anyone that is fleeted with us can you confirm that this the case?

Fly beside anyone, but not do it yourself? very brave of you.

We live in Nisuwa by the way, if you want to come burn us filth from the stars Malcolm.

Seems that you are very quick to critisize.

It is easy to stand in a crowd, point fingers and cry foul.

Courage is standing against the crowd and sticking to ones beliefs. A diplomatic solution was attempted, it failed, but at least Gallactica on behalf of SOTF tried the diplomatic route.

Gallactica is a man of honour and integrity, no matter how anyone tries to twist the truths to say otherwise.

Fear not Gallactica, you do not stand alone.

- Capitol One