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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.14 15:07:00 -
[1]
Look people, these mission runners had to go on the web and find the best setup for their ship. Then they went out and googled the best place to run missions. Then they made the dangerous trek through empire space to the mission hub. Then they got a mission. Then they looked at eve-survival to determine the best damage type to tank for and the put out and to determine which ships were triggers, etc. Then they had to actually go to the mission and watch the enemies fire bounce ineffectively off of their ship while they (the mission runner) wasted everything in sight. Then they had to scoop up all that loot and salvage and fly sometimes as much as 2 jumps back to the agent to collect their paycheck and LPs.
So please let them have all that treasure that they "worked" and "risked" so much to get!
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.15 13:55:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Kva Plexcha
You can leave the mission and let the salvager kill the rats with his t2 salvagers ... probably not.
If it's an angel mission and I happen to have my BS in the system, I'll go grab it and come back and pop your mission rats for you, then come back and salvage them, then probably loot them too if they have good stuff.
I don't care if it is stealing or not, I don't care if you like it or not. I am going to do it until you or CCP stops me.
*sticks tongue out and goes nannie nannie boo boo at you*
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.15 14:40:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
let me ask you this: if the wreck (for the sake of the argument: an EMPTY ONE) is not owned by anyone,
- why can't other people not shoot it without getting conkordokkn'd?
- why can't other people not tractor beam it?
- why does it show MY PILOT INFO when you right click it?
Cause the wreck is created and ownership is set on it before the contents are determined.
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.15 14:45:00 -
[4]
The funny thing is how everyone tip toes around the "real" fix to ninja-salvaging without actually mentioning it cause it would have a big negative impact on both Ninjas AND Mission Runners.
You ALL know what the problem is with salvaging, it is such a blatant oversight by CCP that I can't believe it hasn't been fixed yet, but none of you mention it cause it would make all of us earn a lot less money.
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.15 14:48:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
Originally by: Salliene
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
let me ask you this: if the wreck (for the sake of the argument: an EMPTY ONE) is not owned by anyone,
- why can't other people not shoot it without getting conkordokkn'd?
- why can't other people not tractor beam it?
- why does it show MY PILOT INFO when you right click it?
Cause the wreck is created and ownership is set on it before the contents are determined.
oh wait, what? so in fact I AM the owner of a wreck?
so, why is it still not a flaggable offense when some1 else salvages it?
Cause salvaging isn't restricted by wreck ownership.
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.15 14:57:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
you still don't see there's something BROKEN in this mechanics?
Some things are broken because of mistakes, like the loud popping sound in my speakers or the fact that they thought it would be a good idea to have a rap track in the game soundtrack.
Other things appear broken because they had to be done creatively to add new things to the game, like being able to salvage other peoples wrecks.
If I shoot at you in Dodixie, a dozen Concord ships insta spawn and destroy me.
If a Gurista shoots at you, where is Concord? Why doesn't Concord come and destroy the thousands of Rogue Drones, Guristas, Angels, and Serpentis ships littering Dodixie? Cause the system is "broken", and broken for a reason.
It's a necessay evil.
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.15 20:33:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Salliene on 15/07/2009 20:33:53
Originally by: Niko Takahashi
To the OP.
So you are a parasite and you are surprised that folks yell at you ?
Yeah it is a game mechanic, yes you can salvage other people's wrecks but it does not mean you are not going to be as popular as Lice. 
I fail to see the fun factor in this or money since you can make much more doing them mission then scavenging but hey by all means.
Money turns to ash in your hands, and wealth is like a lodestone upon your soul.
Look upon the lowly ninja salvager, flitting about like a hummingbird from wreck to wreck, and see the smile on his face as you rain down insults upon him. He cares not for the money or for the possessions of this world, he only cares for the stories and the memories he can collect, for at the end of his days they can give him more comfort and joy than piles of money or mounds of treasure.
Then consider the Runner, who goes from mission to mission grinding away. He cares not for fun or for frolick, he only seeks to line his pockets with money and treasures. When his days come to their end, what will he have left? A pile of shiny dust that does not warm him when he is cold or give him succor when he hungers. He finds out all too late that his pockets though they were bulging all the time were actually empty.
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:11:00 -
[8]
Lots of money.
Lots of fun.
Hardly any work.
How can anyone see this as a bad thing?
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:18:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
the fact you can, with 2D training and 500K isk go and steal 20% profit totally unpunished and riskfree from some1 who spend hours producing wrecks and invested time and millions to actually be ABLE to produce those wrecks, is hillarious.
I agree 
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.16 15:16:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ufen Zakalwe
Man, Ninja's can whine as hard as Missioners. Whoda thunk it.
Look Ninjas. Especially those bragging that they can in fact shoot things and have their big, bad, PVP ship waiting just in case somebody does shoot them. If you have this big bad PVP ship, then why not... y'know shoot some enemies with it and salvage the wrecks?
I understand if you aren't skilled enough to do an actual mission but y'know try it?
You aren't a big, bad pirate. You aren't cool. You are even more of a carebear than the mission runners.
Oh no, our electronic honor has been insulted! Lets hurry up and put our pretend weapons on our pretend spaceships and fly off to a pretend solar system and prove our worthiness!
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.16 15:33:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ufen Zakalwe
My god! They can use sarcasm!
And yet the Suddenly Ninjas lot run a website about their internet spaceships and how they like to collect internet "tears" and brag about collecting the internet tears. Oh and post in C and P like big bad pirates. When it's not in fact illegal in the internet spaceship world.
Your argument or point has disappeared somewhere. Perhaps you are just upset that people are more worked up these days about ninja-salvagers than they are about "pirates"? Pirates are sooooo yesterday.
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.16 18:22:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Salliene on 16/07/2009 18:22:20
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
Oh completely unrelated. And salvagers would be SOOO busy without the Mission runners.
Oh. Wait. Without the mission runners you cannot even FIND wrecks. Never mind that there would BE NONE TO FIND.
They are by no means unrelated. Salvaging is parasitic. Mission runners can exist without Salvagers. The reverse is untrue as there would be nothing for the salvagers to salvage.
Making wrecks doesn't require some sort of advanced degree. Even if someone were to say "My sole source of income will only be from salvaging ships that other players destroy and nothing else" AND all the mission runners in the world suddenly quit the game, Salvagers could still exist.
Ships get blown up in belts, in complexes, in PVP all day long.
For the Salvager, mission runners provide an endless, easily tapped stream of income, just like the missions provide the runners. They do not provide the SOLE means of income however.
Remove missions from the game and your average Ninja Salvager will be doing something else within minutes, whereas mission runners would be paralyzed without an NPC handing them a To Do list every hour.
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.16 20:39:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Missy Sasha
Level 4 BS -> 1.5Bil +
ninja salv -> 1mil?
Level 4 BS skills -> 3 mo? 4 mo? 6 mo?
ninja salv -> week?
Your post makes you look like a dolt.
Now you're just being silly.
A level 4 BS can be put together for a lot, lot, lot less than 1.5 billion. I run L4s in my Domi and the total price tag for the ship + drones + fittings + ammo comes in under 100 million.
You could POTENTIALLY spend 1.5 billion on a ship, but if 1.5 billion were the true cost of entry for L4s there wouldn't be 100s of people in Dodixie doing them.
You post the maximum cost for a L4 BS and then the minimum cost for a L4 salvage ship. Some ninjas put dual salvage tackles and use T2 salvagers, if not a tech 2 ship to begin with (such as an inty) pushing the cost to over 100 million. And let's not forget the actual probe ship, which if done right is a Covops (50 mill), with dual rigs (10 mill or more), a sisters launcher (45 mill), and a covops cloak (30 mill).
As for skills, just like with mission running the more SP you have the better salvager you can be. Yes, you can run off and start probing for mission runners after 2 weeks, but you'll be spending far more time probing than actually salvaging. As the weeks go by and your probing skills go up you get better, just like the MR gets better at missions while his SP go up.
So stop with all the blah blah about it only taking 2 weeks and 1 million to be a ninja salvager cause after 2 weeks and 1 mill a ninja salvager is going to be in about the same place as a 2 week old mission runner still grinding his L2s.
Also, I'd be surprised if there was more than 100 active Ninja Salvagers in the game while there thousands of mission runners, most of whom have never even SEEN someone else pop up in their mission let alone start salvaging wrecks or stealing loot.
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
|
Posted - 2009.07.16 20:49:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Complain about them and they relish in the tears.
Call them out and they start up with this all being a game.
How convenient. Use the game and its mechanics/rules to boost real world self-esteem but when some arguable points are made, then it's just a game.
Who uses a game to boost their self esteem? If I want to boost my self esteem I'll look at my paycheck, my daughters, or the association that I am president of (non-game related). I don't need the tears of a mission runner to make me feel better about myself, the tears are just there to wash away the stress of the day.
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
|
Posted - 2009.07.17 12:35:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
have you even ever probed yourself?
Once.
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
|
Posted - 2009.07.17 17:24:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
read one of my last posts on page 7 for some FACTS on how fast easy and cheap you can get into probing.
You can "get into" missions a hell of a lot easier than probing.
You stated that ninja salvagers are stealing 20% of your income from missions. If that is true then it means that it takes 5 runs as a salvager to obtain the same amount of money as a mission runner gains from doing 1 level 4.
You can't find a mission site unless the missioner is already in there. Theres a good chance that if you show up at the mission then you are catching them in the middle of the mission so you have 3 choices:
Take what is already there and move on.
Take what is there and wait around for the missioner to kill everything else.
Skip that mission entirely.
Unlike the mission runner, the income from a night of salvaging is not guaranteed. You know that if you do WC you are going to make approximately 60 million in bounties, cash reward, LP, loot, and salvage. Using the 20%, the salvager has a max of 12 million to gain from your mission, and that's only if every single wreck in the mission is salvaged before you get to it.
As you love to state, if you weren't there killing the wrecks we wouldn't have anything to salvage. This also means that our rate of income is directly tied to your performance. A 5 year old character in a faction fitted Machariel is going to tear through missions 3x as fast as a 2 month old character in a Dominix - so some missioners will provide us faster ISK than others.
Everything about a salvage run is a gamble. You don't know what kind of mission you are going to warp into, you don't know what the mission runner might do to try and prevent you from getting the salvage, you have absolutely zero guarantee that the salvage you do come away with will be worth much ISK (on average it is but not always). I can't predict how much money I will make tonight any more than I can predict the next months weather.
But the for the MR everything is known. You know the best agents, the best damage to tank against, the best ammo or drones to use, the exact behavior of the NPCs you are going to face, in addition to knowing that even if you do not take the salvage or loot you will still get the bounties, cash, and LP reward.
Sometimes we get lucky and we warp into a mission that is 90% complete and has 3 rooms full of untouched Angel wrecks, but that is a rarity. Just as often we warp into missions where the wrecks are gone, worthless, or the mission runner is smart and makes things very difficult for us.
Our income and our experience is not guaranteed, and much of what we do actually makes the game more difficult for us (in terms of how much money we could be making if we cared about that stuff), but we do it anyway.
And we like it.
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Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
|
Posted - 2009.07.17 23:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Zartanic
1. I probed my first WH within 2 weeks of starting my character and I was training other core skills as priority, so no its not easier to get into missioning at level 4. Pro I'm not skilled enough for them yet after several weeks and the cost is substantial. My salvaging ship cost practically nothing.
2. If salvaging has such a low return, why not mission too? So clearly the return must be good enough.
3. I don't care if its an accepted mechanic as that is not relevant to how I feel about it. Same as anyonea who tried to scam me or suicide my ship, I accept its a part of the game but I still think players that do that are lazy and not ever to be trusted. That's fine for this game though and adds fun to it.
So please don't give all these excuses and sob stories. I really do not mind what you do, just don't expect others to think its all fine and how we feel about it is wrong.
If a player is happy to leech off others effort that's fine, its always been part of this game. Just don't give us the bull**** mission runners are unreasonable wanting to blow your ship away and which is why you should be flagged as at the moment there
1 - 2 weeks is not 2 days (or 2 hours) and I stand by my statement that a salvager cannot make as much money as a mission runner in the same amount of time, but that's not what we are shooting for.
2 - We're not in it for the money. The money is just an added benefit of our coolness.
3 - Your opinions, no matter how shallow, are yours to have and I respect that.
etc. - No one is giving sob stories. I am just trying to get it across to the MR's that "you could make more money doing the missions yourself" is like telling a carpenter he could make more money by welding. The carpenter likes being a carpenter, so he does it even if it makes less money than welding. I like salvaging, I don't like staring at the ass of my Domi for an hour while missiles bounce ineffectively off of it and my drones chew up rats.
If salvaging wasn't already inherently broken none of the mission runners would care. I've watched mission runners who cry about salvage let an equivalent amount of loot rot. Why? Cause a certain aspect of salvaging is incredibly wrong and no one will mention it on the forums cause CCP might see it and fix it.
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