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Established characters should be more powerful

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Varden Gage Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.15 19:22:00 - [1] Edited by: Varden Gage on 15/07/2009 19:24:18 While it's obvious that CCP has incorporated the concept of diminishing returns into EVE right from the start, do you feel they have gone too far with it? True, a five-year old character is likely to be somewhat more "powerful" than a one-year old character, but the truth is that even very new characters can compete in most areas without too much difficulty. When you get right down to it, characters in EVE don't really get much more powerful they simply learn new skills that grant them a greater degree of flexibility in career and ship choices. That's not a bad thing, really, but at some point there will be little reason for established characters to train at all. All it's accomplishing is giving them more choices and not making a noticeable difference in performance. As a basic principle, that's probably a sound design decision on CCP's part. That said, why shouldn't a five-year old battleship pilot hold a huge advantage over a relative novice BS pilot? He's earned it! I suppose what I'm saying is that at some point CCP might want to consider introducing some select level 6 and 7 skills -- skills that would really make a difference on the field, but that would require a serious investment of time and ISK to realize any benefits.
el caido School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.07.15 19:26:00 - [2] I solve my problems with ISK. I suggest you look into it.
Draeca Tharri and Co.	Posted - 2009.07.15 19:29:00 - [3] No.
flavia blood Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.07.15 19:34:00 - [4] WOW is that away-----------------> can i haz stuffurz? killing rocks in your neighbourhood
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.07.15 19:36:00 - [5] 7/10 No obvious tells, reasonable tone, engages with core beliefs of forum.
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2009.07.15 19:39:00 - [6] I do have a major advantage over a newish battleship pilot. As a 2005 veteran I have the support skills trained high. My gunnery skills are generally maxed out to lvl 4 in the advanced stuff (large auto spec etc.), with most "support gunnery" tracking etc. up to 5. The skills for most ships I regularly fly are at 5. My shield and armour skills are all at 4 at least and a lot at 5. Put that lot together and it all adds up. Sure a gang of new battleship pilots could take me down, but I quite like that side of Eve. It's not like 100 or even 1000 level 10 players couldn't scratch my level 50. -------------------- What? Me Worry? --------------------
Kaylan Jahlar Minmatar Industrial Limited	Posted - 2009.07.15 19:41:00 - [7] Edited by: Kaylan Jahlar on 15/07/2009 19:42:08 No, I don't think elitist veteran players need any more reasons to step on everybody else's head. To quote a famous quote: Originally by: Master Yoda War does not make one great. ---- Advanced combat probing guide: A clever use of the directional scanner
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.07.15 19:46:00 - [8] I have ~50M SP; I dont feel short-changed with the amount of power I have. I have a decent advantage, in the variety of ships I can fly if nothing else, and it's enough for me to make my little way through the game.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.07.15 20:13:00 - [9] "My 120mil SP Veteran Character (I bought with ISK) can one volley noob Titans with his Impairor." Nope, being established is already the advantage of being established. If you fail to gain advantage out of it you are either a failure or you just bought a new character. -------- Ideas for: Mining
arbiter reformed Minmatar Annihilate.	Posted - 2009.07.15 20:15:00 - [10] Originally by: Abrazzar "My 120mil SP Veteran Character (I bought with ISK) can one volley noob Titans with his Impairor." Nope, being established is already the advantage of being established. If you fail to gain advantage out of it you are either a failure or you just bought a new character. youl loose to my lazor moa everytime Signature graphics that may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to Eve Online. All content must be in good taste.Applebabe

Benco97 Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.15 20:24:00 - [11] I already have an advantage, I get to sit in corp chat all day long doing absolutely nothing except tell everyone how easy the game is now. I have literally become that old uncle that you don't invite to parties because he's always grumpy and smells funny and everyone thinks is useless but in actuality he's seen things more amazing than you can possibly imagine. Basically I have earned the right to be absolutely useless...and loved for it. Originally by: P'uck You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
5pinDizzy Amarr SMS Fleet Services	Posted - 2009.07.15 20:35:00 - [12] Your other advantage as an old player is you should have a considerable amount of more isk backing up you, so put better stuff on your ship. Just cause you've been around so many years doesn't mean you can sit on your bloated backside and blow up all younger guys in a half assed manner, you gotta use what you learned etc to keep yourself top of the pile.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Slightly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.07.16 06:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Benco97 I already have an advantage, I get to sit in corp chat all day long doing absolutely nothing except tell everyone how easy the game is now. I have literally become that old uncle that you don't invite to parties because he's always grumpy and smells funny and everyone thinks is useless but in actuality he's seen things more amazing than you can possibly imagine. Basically I have earned the right to be absolutely useless...and loved for it. I hear ya. Remember when CRIIs were 20mil each? Kids today... Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Fyretracker Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.07.16 07:09:00 - [14] i think what we have now is an optimal design for a pvp game. levels and gear like WoW really discourage pvp for newer people.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.07.16 07:21:00 - [15] Skill > Skills Once you've passed immediate PvP noobdom, your skill, not your skills (though of.c. you'll need to have trained the basics), determine how you will do against an opponent 90% of the time. The EVE skill system is fine, though many L5's are almost only usable for their bragging rights. This is not a problem. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Dillon Arklight Re-Genesis Holdings Aegis Militia	Posted - 2009.07.16 07:36:00 - [16] I'm tending to agree with the general opinion of the people above me. There is already a sense amongst some new players when they start playing that they will never catch up with the veterans in terms of skillpoints and so why should they try. Granting advantages to older players whatever those advantages may be would only reinforce the "why try" arguement. Co-host of PODDED Podcast http://podded.libsyn.com/
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.07.16 07:44:00 - [17] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 16/07/2009 07:44:43 ISK is power, with enough ISK even skills take second place. An older player will have both skill and ISK advantage and thus are "more powerful". Thanks to ISK+Skills I can run Lvl 4 in a HAC faster than a slowpoke BS which means higher base earnings. Add to that the accumulated wealth in the form of researched BPOs, Ships and Modules and the older player has a huge leg up on incoming players. With age you get access to T2 hulls and modules and have better piloting skills using the ships you fly. If all those advantages are not enough for you, then I fear you will never be satisfied with Eve. PS: Enough of the ridiculous WoW *******s. Wow has close to zero advantage for older players since you can min/max like mad due to the grinding nature of progression.
Ze4K DK Gallente Nova-Tek Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.07.16 09:25:00 - [18] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida PS: Enough of the ridiculous WoW *******s. Wow has close to zero advantage for older players since you can min/max like mad due to the grinding nature of progression. Well i think the point of the WoW analogy was that a low lvl char can't do ANYTHING to a high lvl char... Unlike EVE where a low SP char actually have a chance to absolutely shred a high SP char... Min/maxing, and how fast you progress to max level bla bla bla doesn't come into the equation...
Blasphemour	Posted - 2009.07.16 10:04:00 - [19] For a new player, like me, it is already quite hard to get up to par with a 'veteran' 50 mil sp character. I only engage in friendly PVP since I have absolutely no chance in surviving a real PVP fight. Quite the reason why I chose to follow the mining/industrial path untill I have the ISK to support true fights and actually have a chance to get out with more then just a pod. I don't think there should be more advantage for an old player over rookies, if you can't defeat being a 5 year old, ISK billionaire, heavily skill-trained veteran, maybe you should ask yourself if you're not doing anything wrong ;)
Amerilia	Posted - 2009.07.16 10:09:00 - [20] Originally by: Blasphemour For a new player, like me, it is already quite hard to get up to par with a 'veteran' 50 mil sp character. I only engage in friendly PVP since I have absolutely no chance in surviving a real PVP fight. Quite the reason why I chose to follow the mining/industrial path untill I have the ISK to support true fights and actually have a chance to get out with more then just a pod. I don't think there should be more advantage for an old player over rookies, if you can't defeat being a 5 year old, ISK billionaire, heavily skill-trained veteran, maybe you should ask yourself if you're not doing anything wrong ;) It was proven several times that a 1-2 days old char, piloted by an experienced pilot (and without an isk infusion either) can easily take on pvp, just look a bit around for videos, there are a couple.

Tiny Tove	Posted - 2009.07.16 10:14:00 - [21] Edited by: Tiny Tove on 16/07/2009 10:15:18 Originally by: Amerilia nonsense His point was "new player", your retort was "experienced player". It didn't make sense.
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2009.07.16 10:20:00 - [22] Originally by: el caido I solve my problems with ISK. I suggest you look into it. We miss you in SAD! Come back!!!! And did you know that this is in fact Surfin's Plunderbunny's forum alt? It's official!
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2009.07.16 10:21:00 - [23] Originally by: Tiny Tove Edited by: Tiny Tove on 16/07/2009 10:16:17 Giving old characters senility would be a great start. Only if we randomly go up to the windows in the ships and moon concord. It'll be fine as long as we look happy while we're doing it And did you know that this is in fact Surfin's Plunderbunny's forum alt? It's official!
Rakrist	Posted - 2009.07.16 10:26:00 - [24] Originally by: Varden Gage That said, why shouldn't a five-year old battleship pilot hold a huge advantage over a relative novice BS pilot? 'S called a dreadnought
Haakelen Gallente Nation of Muppets	Posted - 2009.07.16 10:28:00 - [25] Originally by: Rakrist Originally by: Varden Gage That said, why shouldn't a five-year old battleship pilot hold a huge advantage over a relative novice BS pilot? 'S called a dreadnought When you hear people make 'Dreads are the new BSes' joke, it helps to realize they're talking about capital fights being nearly as common as big BS fights. Not, y'know, using dreads against BSes.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.07.16 10:38:00 - [26] Quote: While it's obvious that CCP has incorporated the concept of diminishing returns into EVE right from the start, do you feel they have gone too far with it? True, a five-year old character is likely to be somewhat more "powerful" than a one-year old character, but the truth is that even very new characters can compete in most areas without too much difficulty I started playing in 2009 and I feel EvE is a great step up off WoW (played it 2005-2008, along with many other MMOs) and things are much better balanced here than in that piece of crock. I feel you should do the opposite, stop playing EvE in 2009 and go play WoW. Enjoy singlehandedly swat 10 lower level people and feel big and powerful! - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
webninjablack Caldari True Crow Murder	Posted - 2009.07.16 10:38:00 - [27] Isk played a bigger part in te game when T2 was stupidly expensive
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.07.16 10:41:00 - [28] Originally by: webninjablack Isk played a bigger part in te game when T2 was stupidly expensive And now there is a T3!
Wideen Warped Mining Strip Mining Club	Posted - 2009.07.16 11:02:00 - [29] it's not a matter of skillpoints, it's a matter of learning how to play... in that sense a younger player can sometimes be better despite the opponent being older because the former used his brain to pick up on tactics etc.
Jim Hazard	Posted - 2009.07.16 11:11:00 - [30] Edited by: Jim Hazard on 16/07/2009 11:16:16 I guess the point is that veterans do not really have any nice toys to train for anymore. Most 2003 vets got all races Battleships to level 5 or close to it... (same most likely counts for cruisers). They have capital ships for 1 race maxed out which is enough. I personally do not feel the need to train capital ships for 4 different races. If i would have the chance to keep specialising in my favorite race i would keep doing it. It¦s all nice to be able to crosstrain and being flexible, but a vet allways should have the same option to keep spacialising, just as any new player still can do. I have good skills in caldari ships, good enough to make some isk (in case i ever need to shoot an npc to make isk again). Got skills sub cap for amarr maxed out including specialisations skills all being at level 5 same goes for hybrid turrets. Hell i even waited 42 days to train marauders to level 5. Got hybrid turrets maxed out and soon will have gallente ships maxed out as well. I am not interested in training any minmatar ships since they do not fit to my playing style and so it would be pointless for me to train them, i d never fly any of their ships anyway (can fly them with an alt so it s not that i never have been sitting in any of them). So whats left for me to train, what can i look forward to be using in the near future? which new toys do i have left to train for? basically none.... I can understand newer players who say that it would be unfair to give vets even more power, but you also have to understand the vets who want something to train for and who want to keep specialising their chars. ( I specialised right from the start and would keep doing it if i could, i only crosstrained because i ran out of stuff to train for my race). I do not think some advanced skills or really powerfull sub capital ships with really high skill requirements would hurt the game to much. Even as new player you can fly any ship relativly fast if you specialise in your role instead of spreading out your skillpoints in 100 different areas (like the one who sad he can not compete in PvP so he trains industrial skills.. that will just increase the amount of time you will need to get on par with a vet in one area).



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