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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |

Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 11:54:00 -
[61] - Quote
I know this error was spotted on SISI some time ago (sorry Tuxford), but apparently passed uncorrected. Well if you actually look at the module itself you will se that actual damage is in the order of 1e-15 out of 40. SO most likely rounding bug or machine epsilon bug. |

Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group Joint Venture Conglomerate
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 11:55:00 -
[62] - Quote
Baldrik DeLeNoir wrote:I have to say, Mr Tuxford owned up to his error, identified offending code and fixed in 24 hrs (if fixed). From my experience of Game programmers, this is quite exceptional behavior. The fact that the code has sat around for this long and no-one could be bothered to sort it out once and for all is more typical. 
this |

Kiandoshia
Gnampf Inc.
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 11:57:00 -
[63] - Quote
I repaired some stuff for 230k ISK!!!! I want it reimbursed >:| |

Teinyhr
A Club for Reputable Gentlemen
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 12:00:00 -
[64] - Quote
War Kitten wrote: I fly my ships into deep structure quite often. I have never, ever, taken module damage because of it. I have never heard of this feature and I troll the forums quite a bit.
Maybe you should.... *glasses* Troll harder.
It has been around for forever, but the module damage you receive is so miniscule you are quite a lot likely to get blown up way before ever noticing it. If you really fly in structure all the time, you just don't remember getting module damage, because it for 100% sure has always been there.
And I agree with the gentlemen above me, the fact that Tuxford admits he (or someone working under him) made a blunder and that a fix is on the way is more than enough of an apology for me. Not that it was a huge inconvenience anyway, at least to me personally, the repairbills were hardly astronomical ( maybe 100k in all thus far?) even in with some faction/t2 mods. |

War Kitten
Panda McLegion
881
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 13:12:00 -
[65] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote:War Kitten wrote: I fly my ships into deep structure quite often. I have never, ever, taken module damage because of it. I have never heard of this feature and I troll the forums quite a bit.
Maybe you should.... *glasses* Troll harder. It has been around for forever, but the module damage you receive is so miniscule you are quite a lot likely to get blown up way before ever noticing it. If you really fly in structure all the time, you just don't remember getting module damage, because it for 100% sure has always been there. And I agree with the gentlemen above me, the fact that Tuxford admits he (or someone working under him) made a blunder and that a fix is on the way is more than enough of an apology for me. Not that it was a huge inconvenience anyway, at least to me personally, the repairbills were hardly astronomical ( maybe 100k in all thus far?) even in with some faction/t2 mods.
I'll take your word for it I guess. I've never seen modules take damage from being in structure - but I generally don't look at the damage report either for miniscule amounts, I just fix it all and fly on. I only ever looked at the green/red circles around my modules and don't recall ever seeing any visible damage there.
I still think if you're tweaking or repairing code that hasn't worked correctly for ages, trying to fix whatever bug is causing the miniscule damage to be proper damage, you ought to inform the players (and test the changes).
Here's your sign... |

Commander A9
East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 13:21:00 -
[66] - Quote
I appreciate CCP's speedy response to this bug.
Question: will CCP reimburse pilots for any repair bills filed as a result of this bug? |

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
67
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 14:38:00 -
[67] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:I have had modules damaged when I escaped a few fights with like 1-2% hull left. Yeah, I've seen it too, in 'skin-of-my-teeth' escpaes, and it makes perfect sense. Once your armor is breached. Or even seriously compromised.
But when you're shileds are still robustly solid? Nuh-uh.
Anyway, I'm confident it's been fixed. But still am disturbed that tinkered code was allowed to roll live without testing. Back when *i* did software development (not all THAT long ago), that was a 'fired day before yesterday' offense. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. |

Disdaine
285
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 14:54:00 -
[68] - Quote
Commander A9 wrote:I appreciate CCP's speedy response to this bug.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=109797&find=unread
Reported a week ago in test server feedback....
|

Gorki Andropov
Kerensky Initiatives
591
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 15:14:00 -
[69] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:This is likely my fault, I've been tinkering around with the code that applies the damage (I know scary ****) and as a result this might have changed. There has always been a feature where damage is supposed to leak to the modules but it might very well be that we start leaking a bit too early now.
What ships were you guys flying and did you take a lot of hull damage?
nvm some of you said only slight shield damage. I'll take a look tomorrow morning.
If you could take a look now - as your fiddling seems to have caused this - this would be appreciated. |

Gorki Andropov
Kerensky Initiatives
591
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 15:15:00 -
[70] - Quote
Commander A9 wrote:I appreciate CCP's speedy response to this bug.
Question: will CCP reimburse pilots for any repair bills filed as a result of this bug?
"Scuse me Mr CCCP, can you giev me cash plox for my repairs?"
"What cash do you want?"
"Spacebux"
CCP walks off laughing |

Savage Angel
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 15:16:00 -
[71] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:Nova Fox wrote:I have had modules damaged when I escaped a few fights with like 1-2% hull left. Yeah, I've seen it too, in 'skin-of-my-teeth' escpaes, and it makes perfect sense. Once your armor is breached. Or even seriously compromised. But when you're shileds are still robustly solid? Nuh-uh. Anyway, I'm confident it's been fixed. But still am disturbed that tinkered code was allowed to roll live without testing. Back when *i* did software development (not all THAT long ago), that was a 'fired day before yesterday' offense.
I doubt it was with no testing - it was likely that the testers did not think outside of the test case. The code is supposed to damage the underlying stuff when the layer above is low. I bet they tested that and it works fine. They just didn't think to check what happens when the layer above is full.
Anyone working in a complex codeset with screaming customers wanting new features Now Dammit (I do) will understand how it happens. It sucks, and is not a good business practice, but it will happen. At least the damage from this one was minimal, just a tiny bit of ISK compared to the ship you are flying. |

Ager Agemo
Saturn Reaper
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 16:13:00 -
[72] - Quote
i do suffered from leaked damage onto modules while being on hull, but only on extreme cases where i used to warp away at 4% hull or even less :( would be nice if it were to get fixed so modules take more damage when at hull.
plus i too support the idea of modules Wear, turrets, and active modules in general should deteriorate over time. |

Sabren Bel
7th Division
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 16:18:00 -
[73] - Quote
Just ran a bunch of missions in a Tengu and Rattlesnake and can confirm that this has been fixed.
Thanks for the quick response. |

Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:03:00 -
[74] - Quote
AkaiDruiD II wrote:Same here, mods and rigs dmged. This is one buggy update, I'm rly confused about what the update was for now O_o Useless inventory boxes, added lag for missle smoke trails, which is ridiculous, cause there would be no smoke trails in the void of space. WTF is goin on there over at ccp?
If your trying to win an award for "Worst update ever released by a software company", I think u may have won it with this P O S
no.. 90% of the players havent quit... I think that award would go to NGE or CU Compared to THAT this is a non issue
OR the Boot.ini issue
Well I dunno, there was a Japanese (I think) MMO company that deleted all the game data during a downtime and didnt have any backups, so they effective lost the entire game. I dont think it gets worse than THAT
AkaiDruiD II wrote:I'd ask about the resculpting option, cause I don't seem to have it. But, I'm assuming this, too, is another bug. I doubt I've found half of the bugs that this update is likely to have, because I've been mostly docked the whole time. I've gone out to do an L4, that took twice as long to finish due to the lag created by missle "trails"(in the vacuum of space O_o), and the inability to loot wrecks now with this new crappy inventory box setup. And yes I've disabled and tried the 'no missle trail' option, lag is gone but apparently so is the missle, it apparently is fired and does dmg, but seems to travel in another dimension because its not visible at all :P lol
Sorry but they shouldnt have to not update the game cause your computer sucks. Like that one update that made it so a certain % of the game couldnt play anymore.
Get a better PC
And dude, I have a PC I bought on the cheap (less than $400) like 4 years ago.... and I dont have the issue youre talking about ATI Radeon 4650 lol my **** is olllld
MotherMoon wrote:
It's not new dude, calm down, they have always taken damage when your in hull. THIS IS NOT NEW IT"S FOUR YEARS OLD
SHIELDS FULL NOT OVERHEATING TAKING MOD DAMAGE
Not a old feature. Unless Ive been exploiting since 2005 http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2317/JKES0811.17.1 Bees That Drink Human Tears -- ITS SCIENCE!!! |

Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:10:00 -
[75] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:Mars Theran wrote:AkaiDruiD II wrote:Same here, mods and rigs dmged. This is one buggy update, I'm rly confused about what the update was for now O_o Useless inventory boxes, added lag for missle smoke trails, which is ridiculous, cause there would be no smoke trails in the void of space. WTF is goin on there over at ccp?
If your trying to win an award for "Worst update ever released by a software company", I think u may have won it with this P O S Smoke is essentially particles of matter and gases.. what about that wouldn't be visible in space? Besides, I watched the Falcon9 launch last night and there was definitely smoke trails of a sort coming off the booster when the were achieving orbit before deploying the solar panels and heading off to the International Space station. There are many hundreds, likely thousands, of clips of engine burns in actual space, and you can see that they don't, in fact, leave visually-detectable trails in space. Any particulate dense enough to leave a visible trail at missile speeds in space basically means your missile's engines are full of non-performing particulate matter*, and have been designed by drunken monkeys. *Read: Waste of mass, adding expense and lowering performance.
Our modules damage themselves by firing them and you think they werent made by alcoholic monkeys?
AkaiDruiD II wrote:The evidence is clear; with the recent degrade of updates and the ancient, Earthly thinking. The developers and coders at ccp are either; 1. Extremly old and have yet to discover a lightbulb. or 2. Extremly young and not out of diapers yet. ;P
Jeez, this guys tears are like an energy drink http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2317/JKES0811.17.1 Bees That Drink Human Tears -- ITS SCIENCE!!! |

Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group Joint Venture Conglomerate
86
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:14:00 -
[76] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:Nova Fox wrote:I have had modules damaged when I escaped a few fights with like 1-2% hull left. Yeah, I've seen it too, in 'skin-of-my-teeth' escpaes, and it makes perfect sense. Once your armor is breached. Or even seriously compromised. But when you're shileds are still robustly solid? Nuh-uh. Anyway, I'm confident it's been fixed. But still am disturbed that tinkered code was allowed to roll live without testing. Back when *i* did software development (not all THAT long ago), that was a 'fired day before yesterday' offense.
That make so much sense, seeing as eve runs my life support machines here. |

Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:17:00 -
[77] - Quote
Alison McCarty wrote: Let anyone who have a clue do the Job and then after some testing you make an entry in the patch notes and everything is fine. Project Managment, Testing and Qualitiy Managment anyone ?
Can some real DEV give a statement about it please ? Is it a bug or a feature and where is the entry in the patch notes about it ?
I have a feeling that person doesnt work there anymore, or there wouldnt be code they "dont know what it does"
Gotta understand... They fire guys and rehire other ones. If the fired guy doesnt properly document what the code does (he got fired for some reason....) the guy coming in wont know wtf it does... they should just let it sit and hope the new stuff they add into the game doesnt conflict with the stuff they dont know what it does?
Does that make sense to you? http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2317/JKES0811.17.1 Bees That Drink Human Tears -- ITS SCIENCE!!! |

Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group Joint Venture Conglomerate
86
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:19:00 -
[78] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:Mars Theran wrote:AkaiDruiD II wrote:Same here, mods and rigs dmged. This is one buggy update, I'm rly confused about what the update was for now O_o Useless inventory boxes, added lag for missle smoke trails, which is ridiculous, cause there would be no smoke trails in the void of space. WTF is goin on there over at ccp?
If your trying to win an award for "Worst update ever released by a software company", I think u may have won it with this P O S Smoke is essentially particles of matter and gases.. what about that wouldn't be visible in space? Besides, I watched the Falcon9 launch last night and there was definitely smoke trails of a sort coming off the booster when the were achieving orbit before deploying the solar panels and heading off to the International Space station. There are many hundreds, likely thousands, of clips of engine burns in actual space, and you can see that they don't, in fact, leave visually-detectable trails in space. Any particulate dense enough to leave a visible trail at missile speeds in space basically means your missile's engines are full of non-performing particulate matter*, and have been designed by drunken monkeys. *Read: Waste of mass, adding expense and lowering performance.
I'm pretty sure, the "rule of cool" is at play here, same as laser turret recoil
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool |

Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:21:00 -
[79] - Quote
Alison McCarty wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:This is likely my fault, I've been tinkering around with the code that applies the damage (I know scary ****) and as a result this might have changed. There has always been a feature where damage is supposed to leak to the modules but it might very well be that we start leaking a bit too early now.
What ships were you guys flying and did you take a lot of hull damage?
nvm some of you said only slight shield damage. I'll take a look tomorrow morning. Wait youre saying its partially intentional? IS this meant to be a new ISK sink then? And how often is it SUPPOSED to be happening? Cause seriously, how shittily made ARE these modules O.o Or are we getting new Star Trek shields? Seriously, watch Undiscovered country some time. When the hole is BLOWN THROUGH THE SAUCER someone says theyre down to 25% shields lol Let me clarify. Every layer leaks a bit of damage to the next layer when it is sufficiently damage. You start taking a little armor damage while still having some shield remaining and you start taking some hull damage even though have some armor left. This is especially obvious when shooting some structures in missions. However a little known fact is that when your structure gets low then your module take damage. However by that time your structure is so low that you likely exploded and there is a chance that the ship exploded before there was chance to damage the modules. So to sum up, yes this is a feature and always has been but you've likely never noticed it. As to why mess with stuff that isn't broken. Well it may not seem like broken to you guys but it was broken to us. The code was so complex and weird (and not a single comment in sight) that nobody dared touch it. That is usually not a good place to be in because it means if we want to make any changes to it we need to either, hack it in to the current code and hope it works or simply rewrite it in a way we understood. We opted for the latter. Sorry mate don't take it personal but thats a lot of BS and a lot of words. Our mods NEVER EVER did take damage when we undock/dock er our shields are up. there might be some crazy code that got used in some rare cases but what happens here is completly different. Why are you guys always playing around with something you have no idea about ? you have some crazy Code in front of you and have no idea what it does. Just DO NOT touch it. Let anyone who have a clue do the Job and then after some testing you make an entry in the patch notes and everything is fine. Project Managment, Testing and Qualitiy Managment anyone ? Can some real DEV give a statement about it please ? Is it a bug or a feature and where is the entry in the patch notes about it ?
Let me clarify his response for you: There was NO dev who had a clue about this piece of code anymore. It was badly written and uncommented code. Thats why they decided to rewrite it, so somebody could actually usefully work with it (in the future). The rewrite was not supposed to lead to any changes ATM. They rewrote the code, put it on Sisi (and probably tested it somewhat, to see if sth. was broken). They did not notice that some damage-leaking to modules now ocurred earlier than it should (which is a minor issue, anyway). So they are now going to look at it and fix it.
What is the big deal? |

Mr Bimble
Lost Ark Enterprises
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:23:00 -
[80] - Quote
After an easy mission run with no damage to either ship.100% shields armour and structure had a repair bill for all guns.No money made from that mission. |

Doc Severide
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:30:00 -
[81] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:This is likely my fault, I've been tinkering around with the code that applies the damage (I know scary ****) and as a result this might have changed. There has always been a feature where damage is supposed to leak to the modules but it might very well be that we start leaking a bit too early now.
What ships were you guys flying and did you take a lot of hull damage?
nvm some of you said only slight shield damage. I'll take a look tomorrow morning. I had the damage to one launcher after shooting at asteroids. I wanted to see the new launchers on my Drake so I just flew to the nearest belt and started shooting. In 60 seconds I had 2% Damage to one launcher... |

Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:32:00 -
[82] - Quote
Karsa Egivand wrote:
Let me clarify his response for you: There was NO dev who had a clue about this piece of code anymore. It was badly written and uncommented code. Thats why they decided to rewrite it, so somebody could actually usefully work with it (in the future). The rewrite was not supposed to lead to any changes ATM. They rewrote the code, put it on Sisi (and probably tested it somewhat, to see if sth. was broken). They did not notice that some damage-leaking to modules now ocurred earlier than it should (which is a minor issue, anyway). So they are now going to look at it and fix it.
What is the big deal?
awww I already said that http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2317/JKES0811.17.1 Bees That Drink Human Tears -- ITS SCIENCE!!! |

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 20:00:00 -
[83] - Quote
Savage Angel wrote:silens vesica wrote:Nova Fox wrote:I have had modules damaged when I escaped a few fights with like 1-2% hull left. Yeah, I've seen it too, in 'skin-of-my-teeth' escpaes, and it makes perfect sense. Once your armor is breached. Or even seriously compromised. But when you're shileds are still robustly solid? Nuh-uh. Anyway, I'm confident it's been fixed. But still am disturbed that tinkered code was allowed to roll live without testing. Back when *i* did software development (not all THAT long ago), that was a 'fired day before yesterday' offense. I doubt it was with no testing - it was likely that the testers did not think outside of the test case. The code is supposed to damage the underlying stuff when the layer above is low. I bet they tested that and it works fine. They just didn't think to check what happens when the layer above is full. Fair point, but still not an excuse. This is what validation testing is for - to test every condition, inculding initial conditions. Gods know, I've done *my* time in the test-script hells.
Quote:Anyone working in a complex codeset with screaming customers wanting new features Now Dammit (I do) will understand how it happens. It sucks, and is not a good business practice, but it will happen. At least the damage from this one was minimal, just a tiny bit of ISK compared to the ship you are flying. Been there, suffered that. In this case, there *was* no 'screaming customer' looking for this tweak. Indeed, I suspect many would've been just as happy for it to have remained obscure. No need or pressure to roll it when it did - this is the kind of adjustment that can be rolled with pretty much any incremental patch or update. Nope. This is just someone tinkering - within his job role, to be sure - and rolling wihout fully understanding the ramifications of what he was doing. T'ch. Not good.
However, as you correctly note, it's relatively minor, and easily enough fixed. This time. Hopefully, haven gotten his fingers singed, he'll measure twice next time.*
*Why, yes. I AM the king of mixing metaphors. Why do you ask? Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. |

Thutmose I
Rattium Incorporated
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 20:29:00 -
[84] - Quote
Tux strikes again?
also if you look at the modules themselves they only took something on the order of 10e-12 or 10e-13 damage or so, and rigs took damage too |

Implying Implications
Broski Enterprises
66
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 20:31:00 -
[85] - Quote
its a new isk sink |

reamau
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 20:53:00 -
[86] - Quote
I have no issue with the intended effect , even if it does feel like durability loss that other games (not just WoW) have done.
As a 20+ years software developer (thats experience, not age) I'm just at a loss how it could end up in production with the explanation the CCP dev gave.
1) They knew it was old/weird code. Was it tagged for the internal testers to look at? 2) Do they even DO internal dev testing before stuff goes to SISI? Most dev environments that I've ever worked with have at least one such layer. 3) Again, weird code with potential unknown effects- why not mention it during SISI testing? A one-liner about it would have had many people spot this and report it before it went live.
To me, it feels like a quality issue more than anything else, and should be blamed on the project manager (or equivalent) instead of the dev, unless their whole dev model is just to slap it out there and fix what they need (which is a common, though sloppy practice).
Never argue with an idiot.-á They will bring you down to their level of stupidity, and they've had a lot more practice at it. |

killorbekilled TBE
Dare Bears
84
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 21:04:00 -
[87] - Quote
the other day i was repairing a module in space with paste, i had to cancel the repair to use the module
when i tried to activate said module i was told it was still being repaired quick fix was to jump through the nearest gate
never happened before latest patch
coincidence?
huh? |

ISquishWorms
115
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 21:14:00 -
[88] - Quote
I was always taught : Tinker first drink after :)
If you know that you (CCP) have been playing with some code would it not be a good idea to test the results/side effects of playing with that part of the code prior to release? Fair enough we can help test on Sisi etc but what you (CCP) have to remember is we are quite often testing blind unless we know which particular parts of the code have been messed with and even then we are more in the dark than you guys as you will know the structure of the code itself and how that can impact on other parts of the code So knowing what code has been changed you (CCP) would be in a better position to test the outcome and results than your everyday user although I accept at times users do find and come accross situations not even considered by programmers.
Anyway just my 1 isk worth. |

Zleon Leigh
138
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 21:40:00 -
[89] - Quote
Did I overlook this "fix" in the release notes?? Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |

Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
234
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 22:51:00 -
[90] - Quote
Alison McCarty wrote: Why are you guys always playing around with something you have no idea about ? you have some crazy Code in front of you and have no idea what it does. Just DO NOT touch it. Let anyone who have a clue do the Job and then after some testing you make an entry in the patch notes and everything is fine. Project Managment, Testing and Qualitiy Managment anyone ?
LOL, please never attempt to get a job in programming. |
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