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att: CCP. Miners v's Suicide Gankers, a Risk v's Reward imbalance.

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Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2009.07.17 12:31:00 - [1] Well where do I begin? I guess we should first look at CCP's history in regards to high security space and it's relative safety. I am sure all the older players remember when concord was slow to act and didn't prevent all systems of a ship from continueing an assault on a haples pilot, drones kept doing their thing and it took time for concord to destroy the ganker. Then came the unpopular past time of gankers taking out freighters in high sec. We all know what CCP thought of this, we now have a tough concord, ready to completely disable a ship. The reaction is fast in a 1.0 system but still a bit too slow in 0.5. Another tactic that was been employed was one the Privateers used agressively. What they would do is to war dec every corporation and alliance they considdered big enough and then just roam high sec, this was ganking without fear of concord, with the plethora of targets and the abundance of npc stations, the Privateers flourished. That was until ccp introduced patch 'p', this patch made multiple wardecs just too expensive to sustain in the way the Privateers were using the system. It ceased to be a viable tactic and has since become less of an issue. Now we have a new problem in high security space, the indiscriminate suicide ganking of all things mining, it's been refered to as goonswarms 'jihad', however it's spreading amongst the less skilled pvp wanna bees and so mining is just not worth the time, it is too dangerous and has a low isk per hour income due to the over supply of tech 1 meta level 0 drops in missions and rats, which reprocess into far too much minerals. Basically this new trend for easy kills in high sec is hurting industry, it is discouraging industrials from playing eve and is by no means good for the game. What then is the underlying problem? There are two main Issues. The first is risk vs reward, both for the victim and the suicide ganker. The victim is currently mining in what can be an extremely expensive ship, a hulk + fittings can exceed 200m isk, an orca can cost over 500m isk. A high sec miner with current mineral prices makes little in the way of isk in comparison to a mission runner. Mining may if you are lucky net you 10m an hour, missions net 25m+ an hour, because missions are so profitable, the vast majority of the player base farm them. What is given out from missions is a large supply of tech1 meta level 0 modules, they as I said reprocess well and so many sell the minerals at a low price or produce ships and sell them under current mineral worth. Basically put, tech 1 unnamed modules should be removed from npc rat drops. Named modules, tags and ammo + respective rare drops only. This would increase mineral values as most minerals would then have to be sourced from mining. This will also give the tech 1 module áproduction industry a reason to exist, without tech 1 modules, you can't produce tech 2. All this would do would be to balance a miners risk / reward to something more reasonable. Next is the suicide gankers risk / reward. Currently if you are in a tech1 ship, the insurance payout is enough to pay for a new ship, often if you produce the ship yourself, the insurance payout is enough to even replace most modules. Even if you loose your ship in an illegal action, I.e. Concorded, you will still get your insurance. The isk loss is near 0. What also happens if your concorded is a loss of security standing, a trivial amount that can be regained doing a short stint of ratting in low sec. What a suicide ganker has to gain however is not trivial, firstly they gain tech 2 modules from the destroyed ship, some worth millions, the next thing is tech 2 salvage, a hulk is tech 2 so it is considdered a ripe target. The last payoff if that suicide gankers take a twisted pleasure in destroying undefended miners. Something that does not need great skill, just enough ships. The risk vs reward of a suicide ganker is way off, the risk us low but reward is high. My suggestion to balance this would be to stop insurance payouts for ships destroyed by concord. You are a criminal, criminal acts shouldn't be insurable. With these few changes, the respective play styles become balanced and to be honest, fair. Please considdered this thread CCP as ignoring these issues will only hurt your player base. á
Tiny Tove	Posted - 2009.07.17 12:36:00 - [2] Did you know that Suicide Ganking has had more nerfs than everything else in Eve combined? True Story.
gfldex Kabelkopp	Posted - 2009.07.17 12:38:00 - [3] So your point is that mining is less profitable because it's so easy a trained monkey could do it (and you are right here) but to make it more profitable CCP needs to make it even easier? I really hope you are a troll.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.07.17 12:47:00 - [4] Alternatively, I simply suggest a major buff in mining barge and exhumer hitpoints EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
gfldex Kabelkopp	Posted - 2009.07.17 12:52:00 - [5] If you look at the minerals you need to build a big barge you wonder where all that stuff goes to. It does for sure not go into it's hull.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.07.17 13:08:00 - [6] Your use of the "Risk vs Reward" argument invalidates everything you may have said. tl;dr -------- Ideas for: Mining
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.07.17 13:11:00 - [7] Originally by: Nian Banks The reaction is too fast in a 1.0 system but still a bit too fast in 0.5. Fixed. Quote: Now we have a new problem in high security space, the indiscriminate suicide ganking of all things mining Hardly new is it? It was all the rave last summer as well. Quote: Basically this new trend for easy kills in high sec is hurting industry, it is discouraging industrials from playing eve and is by no means good for the game. Actually, it is good for the industry. It creates a good flow of ISK and goods and keep the wheels of industry occupied. Did you know that during last year's jihad, there was a sharp spike in barge/exhumer production — the vast overproduction capacity kicked into gear and everyone was happy. I seem to recall that they mentioned some numbers at the Fanfest 2008 economy presentation — you should watch it. Quote: The risk vs reward of a suicide ganker is way off The sleep-inducingly low amount of ganks we see in highsec right now seems to suggest that you're right: the rewards need to be higher and/or the risks lower. Oh, and if you manage to get your Orca ganked, you're doing something wrong (or they're not doing it for lols). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.07.17 13:13:00 - [8] Originally by: Abrazzar Your use of the "Risk vs Reward" argument invalidates everything you may have said. tl;dr I have to say this; You not reading something and informing you didn't, is less important or note worthy material then any post at ALL relevant to the thread. Then again, shooting myself in the foot as so is this post My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.07.17 13:23:00 - [9] SCHOOL IS OUT FOR THE SUMMER!
Armoured C Gallente Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.17 13:29:00 - [10] If you do not want to loose a hulk dont fly a hulk the saying only fly what you can afford to loose goes far beyond PVP and applies to everything. every T2 ships has a extra bonus BUT it is not insurable. concord isnt there for protection OR get some sheild tanking equipment and fit it for a buffer tank when i was a miner i had a complete sheild tanked mid set up with sheild extender rigs a damage control in the low a plate in the lows and as many sheild extenders as you can fit on the mids. The only reason you are a target is because you make yourself a target. This is eve learn from your mistakes
Tender Trap	Posted - 2009.07.17 13:29:00 - [11] The Op is obviously a miner yet makes no mention of the the reason most pilots suicide gank them, Macro Miners. Back in the day the player base easily kept the macro miners in check but due to whines and CCP's desire to draw more customers from WOW it has become financially and logistically difficult for the average pilot to police their sandbox. Fortunately some have pockets deep enough and the will to play EVE in the spirit it was created from. We are a non-for-profit empire macro mining exterminating corp which use all donations to hunt and Pod Kill macro miners. You herd it we don't just want your ship we want your implants! Any donations received are used solely to accomplish these goals. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=corp&name=Cherri+Bombs&tab=ranking
JavelinGR	Posted - 2009.07.17 13:43:00 - [12] Linkage I wanna be a Care Bear Oh It will be so great to when I'm a Care Bear Oh I can hardly wait to be a Care Bear and do the things Care Bears do. Oh I wanna be a Care Bear Like you! You do? I'll be like Funshine and make the sunshine And have heart like Love-a-Lot. I'll be like Wish Bear and always be there. We'll be the luckiest bears in Care-a-Lot. I wanna be a Care Bear and fill the world with veldspar To be a Care Bear is what I'm dreaming of. We'll make a great pair. We'll stick together through and through Like glue. I don't wanna be a cook or a fireman and I don't wanna play trombone in the marching band. I just wanna be a Care Bear Like youuuuuuuuu! I just wanna be a Care Bear But everyone picks on me :(
Armoured C Gallente Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.17 13:47:00 - [13] Originally by: JavelinGR Linkage I wanna be a Care Bear Oh It will be so great to when I'm a Care Bear Oh I can hardly wait to be a Care Bear and do the things Care Bears do. Oh I wanna be a Care Bear Like you! You do? I'll be like Funshine and make the sunshine And have heart like Love-a-Lot. I'll be like Wish Bear and always be there. We'll be the luckiest bears in Care-a-Lot. I wanna be a Care Bear and fill the world with veldspar To be a Care Bear is what I'm dreaming of. We'll make a great pair. We'll stick together through and through Like glue. I don't wanna be a cook or a fireman and I don't wanna play trombone in the marching band. I just wanna be a Care Bear Like youuuuuuuuu! I just wanna be a Care Bear But everyone picks on me :( congrats you have just won eve
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.07.17 14:13:00 - [14] I stopped reading once the phrases "risk vs. reward" and "isk per hour" were both used in the same post. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Ivana Drake Caldari Liberi Fatalius Exalted.	Posted - 2009.07.17 14:27:00 - [15] Here's an 'issue' for you: Miners are able to exploit CONCORD with an alt and have them spawn in the belt they're mining at. This makes any suicide attempt hopeless and the risk involved for the miner is decreased to zero. Please fix this broken mechanic, thanks!
Mavrk	Posted - 2009.07.17 14:31:00 - [16] go suck on a lolly pop carebear
iP0D	Posted - 2009.07.17 14:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Ivana Drake Here's an 'issue' for you: Miners are able to exploit CONCORD with an alt and have them spawn in the belt they're mining at. This makes any suicide attempt hopeless and the risk involved for the miner is decreased to zero. Please fix this broken mechanic, thanks! That is a very old method which first came in use specifically for ganking, by luring Concord to response in place X they would be late in place Y. Most effective when going for larger targets like freighters or orca's. That wasn't deemed an exploit, so seems only fair the opposite of use is not an exploit either. In regards to the OP, I will agree a miner has by definition zero chance at survival if people want him gone. No matter how many effective hitpoints he tries to go for Question really is whether this is bad by definition. Let's be honest, the only reason there are miners in game is to have relatively easy prey. We don't need average john doe general mining for resources, we have missions for that, both in terms of loot and relatively sheltered locations for quick & dirty mining.
Governor LePetomane Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions	Posted - 2009.07.17 14:45:00 - [18] Originally by: iP0D Let's be honest, the only reason there are miners in game is to have relatively easy prey. We don't need average john doe general mining for resources, we have missions for that, both in terms of loot and relatively sheltered locations for quick & dirty mining. This. By now mining in Eve is a horribly broken system that's inches away from being completely obsolete, and it serves no real purpose except to waste newbies' skill points. I say remove it from the game entirely.
K'uata Sayus	Posted - 2009.07.17 14:46:00 - [19] Eve is so friggin' big and you can't find a place to mine peacefully? Maybe its time to get a clone, move your mining operation to a distant location, and stay away from the suicide infested areas altogether. Yeah, you're going to have to spend some time hauling your ore/minerals to wherever you need to sell/mfr them, but I hardly think those plankton s-gankers are as thick as mosquitos in a swamp, and a dire threat to Eve's economy. EVERYONE SEEMS NORMAL UNTIL YOU GET TO KNOW THEM.
Spurty Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.07.17 14:55:00 - [20] I don't think there will ever become a time when people care about miners. Short of CCP giving all mining barges x8 structure hitpoints, you pretty much are the lowest level of pvp food. There is no way to effectively 'tank' a mining ship (regardless of what people might say) and have it fit for purpose. Until T1 frigates cost 100mill to build, no one will ever stop picking on miners. Thats the breaks in this game. Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails hi cat here i was thinking earlier about corpses...
Mangtoos GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.17 15:19:00 - [21] Edited by: Mangtoos on 17/07/2009 15:19:54 You do realize that hulks were never designed for high sec? There is a reason all of the belts have been defiled into scraps, where newer players have nothing left. The OP is ******ed, and I hope you die a thousand deaths in your half a bil ship. Allahu akbar!
Aethana Minmatar Caldari Strike Force	Posted - 2009.07.17 15:22:00 - [22] Where were all the carebear miners when BOB and the greater bob coalition died? Did they think goon would just be happy in delve after they conquered it? Thus--the carebears in hi-sec all deserve to die repeatedly as they just sat around and did nothing while goon gobbled up delve... Too *****ing bad... !
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.07.17 15:24:00 - [23] Originally by: Mangtoos You do realize that hulks were never designed for high sec? Citation needed.
Rilwar BlackStar Industrial	Posted - 2009.07.17 15:25:00 - [24] If you've any brains at all, you would; 1. Stop mining in highsec in highly populated areas where the gankers are likley to even look for targets, try some little system out in buttfsck nowhere, imagine that. 2. Stop whining 3. If you must be stupid and mine in super populated systems in Lonetrek, Forge and Citadel where the gankers will find you, mine in a mission. If they even bother trying to scan out hulks to gank, it won't matter because if you use a little bit of brains... you're in a deadspace area... they can't warp in on top of you.... mine away from the warpin and stay aligned, guess what, your hulk's now too far away to get to and gank before it's gone. 4. Stop whining 5. See 2 and 4 6. See 5 ------------------------------------------------- Mitnal was here.
Doomed Predator The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.07.17 16:28:00 - [25] Edited by: Doomed Predator on 17/07/2009 16:27:45 The OP could have saved himself a lot of time and just typed baaaaaaaw in big pink capital letters. Maybe even add a for good measure. The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again
Taedrin Gallente Golden Mechanization Protectorate	Posted - 2009.07.17 16:39:00 - [26] Edited by: Taedrin on 17/07/2009 16:40:28 Originally by: Armoured C concord isnt there for protection This is simply not true. CONCORD does provide protection. However, some players may find that the amount of protection that CONCORD provides them (free of charge, might I add) is insufficient for them to fly expensive ships without additional protection in the form of tanking modules and escorts. High end ships such hulks, and capitals are not meant to be solo ships. I believe what you meant to say is that CONCORD isn't there to prevent criminal activities. If CCP didn't want suicide ganking to happen in EVE at all, they would simply make it impossible to activate hostile modules when targetting a player.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.07.17 16:43:00 - [27] Originally by: Taedrin (free of charge, might I add) Hey! I pay taxes, you know. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Aalana D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.07.17 17:22:00 - [28] Originally by: Nian Banks Well where do I begin? I guess we should first look at CCP's history in regards to hi..... WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH FTFY
No Homo Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.07.17 17:33:00 - [29] Whenever someone says "risk vs. reward" you know its gonna be a shit thread
iP0D	Posted - 2009.07.17 17:37:00 - [30] Originally by: Aethana Where were all the carebear miners when BOB and the greater bob coalition died? In bob & gbc alt corps.

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