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Regarding people's problems with the draw method

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Brea Tharen Minmatar Red Hand Squadron	Posted - 2009.07.21 05:13:00 - [1] I thought I would make an attempt at a mature rebuttal to the comments people have been displaying regarding the VII tournament draw method. I realize that some people are gonna flame this thread up like a fine Filet Mignon, but I hope that enough people will respond in like kind to me that an actual conversation is possible. Firstly I'd like to address one thing that seems to be left by the wayside, namely that the amount of negative response to this tournament draw method is virtually the same amount, and as vocal, as some people's problem with the timed entry that was used in the VI tournament. I put that out there because while I'm going to admit some issues with this method of sorting members, it bears mentioning that there is always a percentage of the population that will have problem with any method of selection, and as they are the ones angry, their frustration will create what is usually called the vocal minority. That said, i'd like to get to the meat of my argument. The biggest problem that i have with people's arguments regarding this draw method, is the claim that worthy alliances were missed, losing a spot they deserved. While I can see the point that this is an Alliance tournament, and therefore large alliances should be in it, I reject the claim that the top 50 or so alliances should be the ones that always get in, or any variation of the "We're big and therefore we deserve a spot" argument. That would create a static tournament, where the same people fight over and over again. The counter to the big alliance claim lies in the demonstrable capability many smaller teams have shown in their fights. Every time there is an upset of a big team, it proves the right of smaller alliances to be able to enter and compete. That isn't to say I agree with the 1 corp alliances, but I worry about making rules restricting alliances. That is a slippery slope that may end with the kind of dynamic excitement this tournament has always had being removed. People have also said that they have a problem with the alt alliances. I agree that it was frustrating to lose your spot to what was percieved as a fake group, but it is worth mentioning two things, number 1, the completely sandbox nature of the merciless Eve universe, and secondly, the argument could be made that those slots are going to people who absolutely want to be in the tournament. Either A: it is a team that desperately wants in, and was willing to double down on their chances, or B: its a spot that was grabbed to be sold, and you can be sure the team that buys it was also highly motivated to play. While I find the concept a bit distasteful, I can appreciate that the slots taken by this situation are going to teams that may be the most motivated out of all of us. I have more to say, but I'll wait for people to voice their own opinions, and leave it with this. The random draw is the fair, even though I did not personally like it. Arguing that small alliances dont deserve to be in because of size is bad for a bunch of reasons, even one glaring one. It would create a massive push to blob your alliance to get a spot in the tournament, and thats not something we want to foster as a plan of action. Small teams have consistently shown to be as good or better th an the big guys, and I think they create a dynamic environment.
Proxay Fallen Angel's Blade.	Posted - 2009.07.21 09:00:00 - [2] I think everyone should man up and get the ** over it. It was random, you have as much chance as the next guy of getting in. I didn't promise my guys anything, we haven't even started practicing, but you know what, you don't have to if you're a good pvp alliance, you just roll with whatever comes. In short. ESPECIALLY TO MORSUS MIHI; don't whine when ** doesn't go your way, just get over it and move on. We love everyone.
Alexander Nergal Three Pony	Posted - 2009.07.21 13:10:00 - [3] Maybe add a minimum number of members like the rules for alliance flag submissions (I think its 150 people?) or abit lower. That would stop most of the problems with the current draw method. Thoughts?
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.21 13:27:00 - [4] What proxay said. That said I liked the system last time much better - RNG is dumb and annoying.
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.21 13:27:00 - [5] Originally by: Alexander Nergal Maybe add a minimum number of members like the rules for alliance flag submissions (I think its 150 people?) or abit lower. That would stop most of the problems with the current draw method. Thoughts? I for one would simply get everyone in my corp to make a trial account and use no sp alts for filler.
Alexander Nergal Three Pony	Posted - 2009.07.21 13:47:00 - [6] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk I for one would simply get everyone in my corp to make a trial account and use no sp alts for filler. There goes my plan, erm, every member must have basic and advanced learning skills trained to V. Patient hunter...
Brea Tharen Minmatar Red Hand Squadron	Posted - 2009.07.21 17:56:00 - [7] Yes, alt padding is the reason why I scoffed at size being the regulation for being in the tournament. Sov is also ridiculous, there are a lot of Alliances that don't have any sov and are better pvp'ers for it, because they don't have to have massive NAP's to everyone in order to keep their turf. Ultimately, there is no perfect way to choose the tournament. I liked the alarm clock op the best because the people that got in where the ones that were motivated enough to make certain they signed up in minutes, but this draw method isn't "unfair", it just leaves people out who end up whining and making a small problem sound like a big problem. Frankly I didn't have an opinion of MM before this, but now I'm blown away by how much they whine. Are they just standard 0.0 carebear improved cloakers?
Jaina Proudmoar	Posted - 2009.07.21 18:28:00 - [8] Originally by: Brea Tharen Frankly I didn't have an opinion of MM before this, but now I'm blown away by how much they whine. Are they just standard 0.0 carebear improved cloakers? Was there ever any doubt?
Brea Tharen Minmatar Red Hand Squadron	Posted - 2009.07.21 18:51:00 - [9] There was for me, I didn't really know them except as an abstract. This whole "no Alliance Tournament can be complete or valid without us" concept is some of the most egotistical carebear tripe I've ever seen though. Its incredible the ego these guys have.
bloody johnroberts Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.07.21 19:32:00 - [10] u mad
Rozanos tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.07.21 19:37:00 - [11] Originally by: bloody johnroberts u mad No, u? Originally by: bloody johnroberts yep i agree that it shouldn't just be the largest alliances that get in but too be honest this draw is a fail and has shown that the north is under represented again and yes i'm mad CCCC C CCCC
bloody johnroberts Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.07.21 19:48:00 - [12] i was mad yesterday lol back to carebearing and kicking failed alliances out of space RAWR OH AND OOOOOOOO***
Izo Alabaster Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company The Commission	Posted - 2009.07.22 12:34:00 - [13] Originally by: Proxay I think everyone should man up and get the **** over it. It was random, you have as much chance as the next guy of getting in. If it wasn't random, and they didn't have as much chance as the next guy, would you still feel that way? Morsus Mihi has got a legitimate complaint against the system. A number of people made temp alliances in order to hijack spots and sell them later on, and so Morsus Mihi in fact DID NOT have the same chance as the next guy, since the next guy had several temp alliances also playing for the same spots with the same % chance to win. It looks to me that the guys who did get in (some of which are the very exploiters of the system) are trying to make Morsus Mihi out as whiners, when in fact they are profiting from an unfair loophole to the alliance selection system at the expense of Morsus Mihi and others. Morsus Mihi, and others are right and have a legitimate complaint here.
Proxay Fallen Angel's Blade.	Posted - 2009.07.22 13:15:00 - [14] Edited by: Proxay on 22/07/2009 13:17:53 Originally by: Izo Alabaster Originally by: Proxay I think everyone should man up and get the ** over it. It was random, you have as much chance as the next guy of getting in. If it wasn't random, and they didn't have as much chance as the next guy, would you still feel that way? Morsus Mihi has got a legitimate complaint against the system. A number of people made temp alliances in order to hijack spots and sell them later on, and so Morsus Mihi in fact DID NOT have the same chance as the next guy, since the next guy had several temp alliances also playing for the same spots with the same % chance to win. It looks to me that the guys who did get in (some of which are the very exploiters of the system) are trying to make Morsus Mihi out as whiners, when in fact they are profiting from an unfair loophole to the alliance selection system at the expense of Morsus Mihi and others. Morsus Mihi, and others are right and have a legitimate complaint here. rubbish, last year there were young alliances who competed and did very well, just like #5 where HUN Reloaded. A nobody at the time, came around to win the tourney. So you can take your bull** presumptions and shove them up your ass. Selling them is wrong, they should be forfeited automatically, and as far as I'm aware (And I don't read anything here), that's one or two groups, at most. We love everyone.
Cheekything Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.	Posted - 2009.07.22 13:18:00 - [15] Originally by: Izo Alabaster Originally by: Proxay I think everyone should man up and get the **** over it. It was random, you have as much chance as the next guy of getting in. If it wasn't random, and they didn't have as much chance as the next guy, would you still feel that way? Morsus Mihi has got a legitimate complaint against the system. A number of people made temp alliances in order to hijack spots and sell them later on, and so Morsus Mihi in fact DID NOT have the same chance as the next guy, since the next guy had several temp alliances also playing for the same spots with the same % chance to win. It looks to me that the guys who did get in (some of which are the very exploiters of the system) are trying to make Morsus Mihi out as whiners, when in fact they are profiting from an unfair loophole to the alliance selection system at the expense of Morsus Mihi and others. Morsus Mihi, and others are right and have a legitimate complaint here. Why don't Morsus Mihi join one of these said "hi jacked spots" and get over it!
kayentelva Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.07.22 16:09:00 - [16] i get the feeling MM thought they were an automatic choice which comes across as arrogant. however, their complaints are not without merit how does an alliance created a few days ago with 3 people get in ? havoc things dont change by being silent, so why shouldnt MM raise their concerns ?
Alekseyev Karrde Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.07.22 17:40:00 - [17] Random is fine, but there is something to be said for CCP just stating "selling of slots or spamming alliances is not cool and we'll do XXX if we catch you doing it". Or "we'll adapt the tourniment format to accept as many entrants as possible within our time frame" so people feel less need to do so in the first place. As it is, people who were unwilling to create multiple alliances solely to assure they'd have a spot, usually to auction off, threw off the "everyone has as much as chance as everyone else" aspect of random selection. --- Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam
ArmyOfMe The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.07.22 18:38:00 - [18] random draw is fine by me, but there should be a way to get rid of holding alliances etc. this tourney should be for real alliances.
kayentelva Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.07.22 19:44:00 - [19] please define real alliance because I have no idea who t f you are that doesnt mean much because I can barely remember my own name, but who gets to decide what a real alliance is ? BYDI created an alliance specifically for the tournament AS ENCOURAGED by CCP Claw do you think they are unworthy to be in the tournament ?
Jones Bones Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.07.22 20:12:00 - [20] Originally by: kayentelva BYDI created an alliance specifically for the tournament AS ENCOURAGED by CCP Claw do you think they are unworthy to be in the tournament ? C =================== Go Bucks!
bloody johnroberts Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.07.22 20:19:00 - [21] i think everyone should have a chance to attend im looking forward to seeing the created alliances play and good luck to all who attend
Leandra Anor Minmatar H A V O C	Posted - 2009.07.22 20:22:00 - [22] Originally by: kayentelva i get the feeling MM thought they were an automatic choice which comes across as arrogant. however, their complaints are not without merit how does an alliance created a few days ago with 3 people get in ? havoc things dont change by being silent, so why shouldnt MM raise their concerns ? HAVOC. Alliance was created so that we (HAVOC the corp) could participate in the alliance tournament. Last year we participated as FIX alliance since we have close ties to FIX. That option wasn't available to us this year, and we didn't find out until about a week ago. Hence we created an alliance to be able to participate. Had we been able to use the FIX name then as participators of last years tourney, we would have been auto accepted. We have every right to be in this tourney. HAVOC the corp is not in a position to join an alliance at the moment, and we are a PVP corp... understandably our members don't want to leave the corp to move to the alliance until closer to the time so that they can continue to enjoy corp ops etc. ______________________________________________ ~And YES already... I am a RL female gamer!!~
bloody johnroberts Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.07.22 20:44:00 - [23] havoc have every right to attend everyone who pays the entrance fee and goes in the hat does i myself am happy that they do as this is about pvp what i was upset with was alliances created just to give there other alliance more chances of entering knowing that if they failed they would get there fee adding alliances to the hat that had no intention of attending and then there is the slot seller that enters for profit rather than the pvp if you buy the slot you are fighting under another alliance this defeats the name alliance tourney this has nothing to do with how big you are or if you own space or not its about the pvp good luck again to all that attend
Greg ours	Posted - 2009.07.23 02:07:00 - [24] It's pretty clear who's to blame for the issues with the drawing. Quote: the 64 participants for round one were drawn from a manly pink cowboy hat
Feisty Kitten	Posted - 2009.07.23 04:11:00 - [25] Originally by: ArmyOfMe random draw is fine by me, but there should be a way to get rid of holding alliances etc. this tourney should be for real alliances. definition of "real" alliance, toolbag?
Draekas Darkwater	Posted - 2009.07.23 06:46:00 - [26] I'd say that CCP just has to make a decision. Either keep the ALLIANCE tournament, or just drop the alliance moniker completely and call it something else. If the first choice is made, then yes, have some sort of determination system to have this tournament made up of real in game alliances (big and small). Not sure what that should be though. If the second choice, then just have it team based. Names of team members are submitted when signing up and made public. Corp/alliance would be irrelavent here. Sign up fee not given back if team pulls out at any point. Team names would have to applied for perhaps, decided by the team captain..names on a first come/first served basis.
Brea Tharen Minmatar Red Hand Squadron	Posted - 2009.07.23 08:13:00 - [27] Whats ridiculous is how you guys are redefining what an alliance is in order to suit your argument. There are plenty of alliances in this tournament, real alliances by any definition. In fact I'd go as far as to say all of them, or at least 61 of them are alliances, so what is this straw man argument that says this isn't an Alliance Tournament?
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.23 09:30:00 - [28] Originally by: Cheekything Why don't Morsus Mihi join one of these said "hi jacked spots" and get over it! They probably consider it a "principles" thing , e-honourrrrrrrr ! (rewarding big meanies who dishonor the spirit of e-bushido by selling their spot) or maybe they're too cheap to spend more isk on something they're not very good at i'm guessing it's a combination of the two + lazyness and a sense of entitlement that makes them think cos they're a major alliance they should be guaranteed a spot shrug personally I think MM should put their money where their mouth is if they care so much about the tourney then just buy a spot, take part and prove the people calling them carebears and crap pvpers wrong - put some of the moon gold to use
Derwent Caldari Free Lapland The Kadeshi	Posted - 2009.07.23 09:58:00 - [29] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Originally by: Cheekything Why don't Morsus Mihi join one of these said "hi jacked spots" and get over it! They probably consider it a "principles" thing , e-honourrrrrrrr ! (rewarding big meanies who dishonor the spirit of e-bushido by selling their spot) or maybe they're too cheap to spend more isk on something they're not very good at i'm guessing it's a combination of the two + lazyness and a sense of entitlement that makes them think cos they're a major alliance they should be guaranteed a spot shrug personally I think MM should put their money where their mouth is if they care so much about the tourney then just buy a spot, take part and prove the people calling them carebears and crap pvpers wrong - put some of the moon gold to use taunt
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.24 20:15:00 - [30] Yeah but I mean every word. I want MM in the tourney, i've fought them in the past (and won har har) and when they've made it in they took it seriously and gave a good showing 1) they can afford to buy or talk/bully someone into giving them a spot, there's always chribba to hold ISK if they're worried about being scammed 2) they obviously care about it (not bothering just cos of alliance name is a pathetic reason, as someone said just make a corp called "MM Tournament Team") jus sayin~

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