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Ivy Romanova
All Your Machariel Belong to Ham
3
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Posted - 2012.05.24 03:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
As the title says any thoughts? the shares system is pretty much static the so called bonds are pretty much just handing out money based on trusts it would be nice to have more investment options in this game |
Edward Khurelem
Kouses Technology
3
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Posted - 2012.05.24 04:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
I agree, it would be nice to see a other ways of making money other than the existing methods.
I am an investor in the National Bank Scheme, it would be nice to have something that is more tangible rather then this trust game which personally, I hate. I am not a trusting person at all and it kind of scares me that majority of these "investments" are trust based.
In saying this, how do you suggest it would work? |
Ivy Romanova
All Your Machariel Belong to Ham
3
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Posted - 2012.05.24 04:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Edward Khurelem wrote:I agree, it would be nice to see a other ways of making money other than the existing methods.
I am an investor in the National Bank Scheme, it would be nice to have something that is more tangible rather then this trust game which personally, I hate. I am not a trusting person at all and it kind of scares me that majority of these "investments" are trust based.
In saying this, how do you suggest it would work?
well lets start with stocks
We could set up the stock exchange market which allows corps to list their company on different boards based on their total asset value, just like real life .
To prevent making the system too complicated , I think we can assume all corps to be public listed companies once they got public
You know the rest of the story.
Companies that want to have its' name listed will have to pay administration fee of several hundred mils per month, depending on the board it's listed on.
Corps with better sec stat will have a lower administration fee , as its assumed they are more credible than other firms.
Investors can only buy shares from a few limited hubs connected to the New Eden Stocks Exchange , one in each empire space to simulate the time zone difference as seen in real life ^^
A lot still remains to be discussed. Any more ideas? |
Ivy Romanova
All Your Machariel Belong to Ham
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 04:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Edward Khurelem wrote:I agree, it would be nice to see a other ways of making money other than the existing methods that are more long term.
I am an investor in the National Bank Scheme, it would be nice to have something that is more tangible rather then this trust game which personally, I hate. I am not a trusting person at all and it kind of scares me that majority of these "investments" are trust based.
In saying this, how do you suggest it would work?
we could take some ideas from this page http://incblog.incorporate.ca/2006/04/issuing-shares-basics.html
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Edward Khurelem
Viziam Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2012.05.24 08:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ivy Romanova wrote: well lets start with stocks
We could set up the stock exchange market which allows corps to list their company on different boards based on their total asset value, just like real life .
To prevent making the system too complicated , I think we can assume all corps to be public listed companies once they got public
You know the rest of the story.
Companies that want to have its' name listed will have to pay administration fee of several hundred mils per month, depending on the board it's listed on.
Corps with better sec stat will have a lower administration fee , as its assumed they are more credible than other firms.
Investors can only buy shares from a few limited hubs connected to the New Eden Stocks Exchange , one in each empire space to simulate the time zone difference as seen in real life ^^
A lot still remains to be discussed. Any more ideas?
Interesting Idea I must say because at the moment, shares don't really mean anything other than providing a method of voting for corporations (at least not to me) unless there is a price issued on the share and it entitles me to a weekly, fortnightly or monthly dividend.
If the shares were based around asset value of the corporation, what would be some of the influencing factors that would cause the value of the shares to increase or decrease? It would have to be something that is an acceptable standard that can be applied to all corporations small or large.
What would be the average value of the shares when they first are released onto the stock market? |
Ivy Romanova
All Your Machariel Belong to Ham Industrial Technonauts
5
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Posted - 2012.05.24 08:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Edward Khurelem wrote:Ivy Romanova wrote: well lets start with stocks
We could set up the stock exchange market which allows corps to list their company on different boards based on their total asset value, just like real life .
To prevent making the system too complicated , I think we can assume all corps to be public listed companies once they got public
You know the rest of the story.
Companies that want to have its' name listed will have to pay administration fee of several hundred mils per month, depending on the board it's listed on.
Corps with better sec stat will have a lower administration fee , as its assumed they are more credible than other firms.
Investors can only buy shares from a few limited hubs connected to the New Eden Stocks Exchange , one in each empire space to simulate the time zone difference as seen in real life ^^
A lot still remains to be discussed. Any more ideas?
Interesting Idea I must say because at the moment, shares don't really mean anything other than providing a method of voting for corporations (at least not to me) unless there is a price issued on the share and it entitles me to a weekly, fortnightly or monthly dividend. If the shares were based around asset value of the corporation, what would be some of the influencing factors that would cause the value of the shares to increase or decrease? It would have to be something that is an acceptable standard that can be applied to all corporations small or large. What would be the average value of the shares when they first are released onto the stock market?
yep lets say the asset value determines the shares prices lets say A has an asset value of 500 billion isk and they plan to issue 500 billion shares to the public , naturally the price per share will be 1 isk per share thats for the IPO however m after the corp goes public , the shares prices will be determined by the supply and demand of the market , jsut like how the price is other commodity in game is |
Johnny Frecko
Fruidian Logic The Butterfly Effect Alliance
31
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Posted - 2012.05.24 11:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
What stops me from issuing and disbanding the corp? making a new alt, dumping all my assets onto him, and run it again?
this has been talked before, People will scam. repeatedly. If you can't close down the scams, you're down to trust again, and there's no difference than right now.
even worse, if the guy gets hit by a bus, or stops playing eve, you lost all your ISK. there is no legal requirement for the corp members to not disband if their leader is gone, and most corps will.
Don't worry about stock medhanics, Worry about the scams - Solve that, and you've solved the problem.
you can also dilute shares as much as you please, making shareholders irrelevant. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
53
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Posted - 2012.05.24 11:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
The reason these things arent really in the game yet is lack of features, not lack of player interest..
Problem is every time its discussed half the community of players think ccp can wave a magic wand and the system would be up and working..
We need very basic functionality for economic issues first, the advanced products would develop from there..
Player billing, and the visual aids to keep track of player to player bills would be vital.
Total NAV estimation, which should be possible now with the new calculation mechanics.
A rather big overhaul of the functions and features of the contract system, or alternatively a dedicate scc /exchange market for the shares already in existence in game mechanics.
A player driven system of auditing, that used more effective tools, especially metagame oriented ones.
Last more serious attempts to build lasting business and not merely some ponzi scheme.
There are tons of good businesses in game already, but they usually have no need to share their wealth or ask for funding publically. The main reason for this is that we still got a bit to many isk faucets and a generally unbalanced economy.
The economy is entertaining as a sandbox game, but it still lacks some fundamental checks and balances regarding ecology and bias of the broken windows fellatious economic model.
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Ivy Romanova
All Your Machariel Belong to Ham Industrial Technonauts
8
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Posted - 2012.05.24 13:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:The reason these things arent really in the game yet is lack of features, not lack of player interest..
Problem is every time its discussed half the community of players think ccp can wave a magic wand and the system would be up and working..
We need very basic functionality for economic issues first, the advanced products would develop from there..
Player billing, and the visual aids to keep track of player to player bills would be vital.
Total NAV estimation, which should be possible now with the new calculation mechanics.
A rather big overhaul of the functions and features of the contract system, or alternatively a dedicate scc /exchange market for the shares already in existence in game mechanics.
A player driven system of auditing, that used more effective tools, especially metagame oriented ones.
Last more serious attempts to build lasting business and not merely some ponzi scheme.
There are tons of good businesses in game already, but they usually have no need to share their wealth or ask for funding publically. The main reason for this is that we still got a bit to many isk faucets and a generally unbalanced economy.
The economy is entertaining as a sandbox game, but it still lacks some fundamental checks and balances regarding ecology and bias of the broken windows fellatious economic model.
true true scamming and the lack of contract , and in general , financial regulations has always plagued the economy of New Eden especially so in Jita However , that doesn't mean we can't make the first step in equalizing the power of New Eden , one step at a time. For piracy , we have GoonSwarm ruining the day , yet , we also have Coalition of Antipirates (COA) to combat the piracy.
There will always be people who scam , and if we don't fill in the loop hole , the stocks market will just become another of their playground
What we need is effect and consequences , bureaucracy. Distribution of power , any major investments by any listed firms must first pass through a voting session of which a majority of the stock holders have to agree on before being passed ( WHAT WAS YOU THINKING CCP? MULTIACCOUNTING?) The corp's financial report will be required by law to be automatically disclosed bi-weekly so the public and other investors can balance the risks and returns and judge whether their spending is too aggressive for their taste, and as always , when someone finds the spending to be suspicious , like everything in game , there is always a voice channel for such.
No one said this will be a simple system to implement , and I've just barely scratched the surface , we don't even have the bone structure of the system .
But i think , if we were to further deepen the gaming experience and allow more alternative route of isk making in-game , this should be where we go. |
Gettinsome
Dawn Trading
7
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Posted - 2012.05.24 21:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
All this makes me quiver with excitement, this would open so many more opportunities in the sandbox...perhaps with what time CCP are putting in UI and all that jazz they might revamp the current shares system (crosses fingers but doesn't hold breath) |
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SetrakDark
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
17
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Posted - 2012.05.24 21:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
wolololololol
in 10 years rubes are still gonna come through here and type up some airy-fairy crap about a stock market and efts and clearing houses for a banking system
so funny
these never get old |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
55
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Posted - 2012.05.24 21:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
@Setra
That was kinda my point, and not the misunderstood whine at pvp that seems to have come across. My issue was not about pvp or aggression, it is about meaningless aggression and misplacement of different types of assets.
Anyways.. Every time someone comes in here stary-eyed and talks about these exotic financial products, the tragedy is the same..
We dont need ccp to make these things, we need them to understand what tools are needed for the players to do so.. The spirit of EVE is SANDBOX..
Many have commented on these things MANY times before, and I am only slightly hopeful, because some of the current updates seems to be trending in the right direction.
A way to make transparency. (Wars and aggression just got very public)
Ways to calculate NAV (Sort of here, but on a step by step hangar YAWN basis, we need the feature to be able to sum up more and all locations)
Ways to use politics standing for something with meaning. (npc nerfing, and hopefully more like it to follow)
Way to bill player to player. For all types of services and operations.
Also add total wealth taxation based on liquid assets and NAV. Only ofc stations that corp can see / access. This to balance the lack of taxing option from sources except for missioning..
Last new corp types, and appropriate ownership certificates, share based and share types.. The difference would be in features that would be selected upon creation. Vote or not, dividends or interests on initial payment etc..
Its a rather big request, but it could be introduced in rather small steps, and not warrant some huge update..
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LadyOfWrath
Ships N Stones
2
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Posted - 2012.05.24 21:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
I have already coded one stock exchange which was purchased by ECR then never went live due to other issues. The easiest way currently for CCP to make shares hold value is to assigned them a value based on total locked down corp assets divided by total shares. In space assets could be added in as well and this could easily be done via a mySQL database with API integration. This system would basically show a stock value based on assets on hand and stocks could trade based on that across the exchange. Again there is no way to manage people form scamming the system and people WILL do it period. Any CEO irl or in game can cause an action which will devalue shares. In EvE it would still boil down to a trust mechanic. |
SetrakDark
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 21:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
it all requires some form of contract enforcement, which will never happen because it goes against the very nature of the game
there is no game mechanic that holds you to your word or applies a punishment for breaking it, and there never will be. all that can develop are reputations, and because the returns are so small in business compared to the capital needed the incentive will always be stronger to just walk away instead of building a reputation. this mix of mechanics and incentives means that complex capital markets will never be achieved in eve beyond small groups of RPers that pop up with their own ticking time bomb inherent in their formation (see the "md elite").
the sad thing is there is tons of interesting finance and economic phenomena in eve, much of it unique to eve and produced directly because of these aforementioned game elements, yet many people fail to grasp them and instead remain stuck on attempting to mirror what they see in the real modern world. |
Edward Khurelem
NIGHTMARE FACTORY INDUSTRIES ROL.Citizens
3
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Posted - 2012.05.24 21:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
SetrakDark wrote: the sad thing is there is tons of interesting finance and economic phenomena in eve, much of it unique to eve and produced directly because of these aforementioned game elements, yet many people fail to grasp them and instead remain stuck on attempting to mirror what they see in the real modern world.
Name a few of these Interesting finance and economic phenomena?
All I see in the finance level of this game is the typical shallow environment of Buy/Sell that are affected by enivoronmental factors such as Hulkagaddon or the Burn Jita movement. I don't see a complex finance setup anywhere in there.
Prove me wrong |
SetrakDark
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
17
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Posted - 2012.05.24 22:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
Edward Khurelem wrote:I don't see a complex finance setup anywhere in there.
Prove me wrong
lol
why would I?
Where did I ever claim there was a "complex finance setup" ? (whatever that is?)
Perhaps rephrase your question in a non-leading way.
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TomHorn
Horn and Brothers
45
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Posted - 2012.05.25 00:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
Stock Exchange does exist in EVE but its out of game and run by a player Block Ukx whos been involved with the MD forums for along time.
Link to stock exchnage below. Where you can buy and sell stocks in companies in EVE.
http://www.bsacse.amxg4.com/home/index.php
Rather than wait for ccp, why not try and support this out of game stock exchange, By opening account there advertise it in your bios. I dont think weve seen many people wanting run business in the MD section for a while. Its generally been bonds from what i remember. If any new IPO come along recommend to try and get them listed on the exchange. Maybe Block could start thread for the stock exchange in the MD section that gets bumped everynow and then to try and get people to open accounts and use it.
Caleb maybe you could link it in the scc-lounge chat channel.
I think trying to support this stock exchange would be much better idea than waiting for ccp.
Those interested in stock exchange should open account today and try it out. Try and buy just few million isk worth stock see how it goes.
Little acorns mighty oak trees grow |
Durin Sarga
Lionhearted Investment Services and Planning
4
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Posted - 2012.05.25 16:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
I think we need to make a distinction here between the single-point of failure businesses/corps we see here in MD and the mid to large size corporations we see in EVE who have good reputations w/in their sphere of players and have a long-standing history.
As a corp Exec I wish there was a mechanic to pay out all of my members fairly without having to turn over in-game shares to them (for obvious reasons). The members don't need 'voting' shares, but they do need investment shares.
What about the concept of an ESOP? We get Block to set up an interface where by I get my players to sign up with his stock exchange. I give him X shares of my corporation to then dilute to my members. Block then becomes the 3rd party to protect me against my members and in return I give him (or an auditor of his choice) access to evaluate the business as a whole to make sure my members are getting a fair payout, etc.
The company as a whole need not go public, but it offers a way to stimulate this Stock Exchange model. Also, once a player is a member of Block's stock exchange they could very well purchase other 'public' company shares and build a portfolio of private and public shares.
Just a thought. It might be something we as a community could look into.
Durin |
SetrakDark
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
19
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Posted - 2012.05.25 16:50:00 -
[19] - Quote
Durin Sarga wrote:I think we need...
Player-driven innovation is fine. The point is that CCP will not introduce enforcement mechanics that contradict some of the fundamental principles of the game for the benefit of a miniscule RPing sliver of the playerbase.
Basically, almost every thread that starts with "wouldn't it be cool if CCP..." is a dead end because the simple fact is that CCP won't. |
Durin Sarga
Lionhearted Investment Services and Planning
5
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Posted - 2012.05.25 17:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
I totally agree.
Hence why I think there are still several hurdles in managing a 'public' stock exchange. Mainly because public companies tend to be ponzi schemes, scams, etc.
Privately held companies I think is where a player driven attempt at stocks has a chance. Before we go into full blown public stocks maybe we should scale back to something more local.
Give good 'regular' corporations with ~100 members exposure to privately held stocks while protecting these corporations against corp theft a bit might be a good first step.
Then we start to build a body of corporations who are actually corporations and not just single-player investment tools. Does that make sense a bit?
Durin |
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Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
247
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Posted - 2012.05.25 17:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
TomHorn wrote:Stock Exchange does exist in EVE but its out of game and run by a player Block Ukx whos been involved with the MD forums for along time. Link to stock exchnage below. Where you can buy and sell stocks in companies in EVE. http://www.bsacse.amxg4.com/home/index.php
Block Ukx is a partial solution, but it's still entirely based on trust. Players send him their ISK, and he provides an interface between investments and investors.
The inherent problem, which I don't see being resolved, is that Corporations in Eve don't own assets. Characters do.
The only way Corporations could have inherent value, and thus stock value, would be to lock down assets in such a way that no members have the power to take possession of them. Unfortunately, blueprints are the only assets in the game that are productive when locked down, so beyond that there's really no point. |
SetrakDark
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
19
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Posted - 2012.05.25 17:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
Durin Sarga wrote:Does that make sense a bit?
Absolutely.
The main point I keep parroting on here is to shape your innovations with the actual mechanics and incentives of Eve in mind instead of trying to mirror what you see in the real world. Much of the discussions of "innovation" on here are just people making cheap cargo cult copies of what they see in the real world. These are easy to knock out in theory because everyone thinks they understand how they work, but then they quickly fall apart in practice when faced with the realities of social interaction in Eve.
If people really want to create an interesting and compelling knowledge community out of the market discussions subforum, then they need to get over the mirroring and start serious discussions about the nature of social interaction in Eve, the progress so far in organizations and collective action, and where we might be able to go from here. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 18:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
SetrakDark wrote:Durin Sarga wrote:Does that make sense a bit? Absolutely. The main point I keep parroting on here is to shape your innovations with the actual mechanics and incentives of Eve in mind instead of trying to mirror what you see in the real world. Much of the discussions of "innovation" on here are just people making cheap cargo cult copies of what they see in the real world. These are easy to knock out in theory because everyone thinks they understand how they work, but then they quickly fall apart in practice when faced with the realities of social interaction in Eve. If people really want to create an interesting and compelling knowledge community out of the market discussions subforum, then they need to get over the mirroring and start serious discussions about the nature of social interaction in Eve, the progress so far in organizations and collective action, and where we might be able to go from here.
Your cargo cult analogy is spot on, but I think we might differ in why these things fail..
The mimicry of real life often discussed in here, tend to make RL financial products way more exotic and advanced, then they actually are..
The missing parts is how simple and basic these things are, and that its only interpersonal features and mechanics that generate all the layers on top.. That is why I tend to always ask for something that sound a lot off topic, but fundamentally these things and features is exactly what will give these ideas a potential reality, and not these cargo cult non flying versions of it..
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SetrakDark
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
21
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Posted - 2012.05.25 18:36:00 -
[24] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:The missing parts is how simple and basic these things are, and that its only interpersonal features and mechanics that generate all the layers on top.. That is why I tend to always ask for something that sound a lot off topic, but fundamentally these things and features is exactly what will give these ideas a potential reality, and not these cargo cult non flying versions of it.
Actually couldn't agree more.
If you want to take apart the fundamentals of a banking system, for example, and then attempt to adjust them to the realities of Eve, then I think you're absolutely on the right track.
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Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
62
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Posted - 2012.05.25 18:52:00 -
[25] - Quote
I was actually thinking that if some of those people that keep experimenting with setting up these services, would actually consider involving a trusted 3rd party, like maybe collaboration with Chribba or similar, we might be able to get more traction..
Or even having some sort of 3-4 mirror services running for verification purposes, and hit by truck and scam securitization?
Personally I dont trust most services that arise, even if they have no intention of scamming. The point is as time goes by solo projects always end up at some burn out, even the most succesful ones, and they often then opt to scam instead..
I think that is the biggest challenge to the MD, to actually come together and consider building something as a group that would last beyond hit by truck, burn out, and similar issues.
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Durin Sarga
Lionhearted Investment Services and Planning
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 20:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
Yeah,
The reason Block's exchange is attractive for something similar to what I proposed above is:
1. Block controls the 'stocks'. If for some reason we choose to buy out a member because they are no longer with the corp we can cash them out through the exchange and have the 'shares' returned to our BSAC Exchange account. You can't do that in EVE. The party holding the shares has to 'give' the shares back. Which is not ideal.
2. Payments from the parent corp could be made to the exchange and then distributed to the members via their shares in the form of exchange ISK. Then members could choose to use that and invest in other things on the exchange or pull it out, and back into the game. Thus the company as a whole maintains it's wallet, Block isn't given more than a single disbursement at a time to limit his exposure, and the players get their ISK.
3. We (MD) could work with Block and set up a check on the corporation to make sure that members of a particular corporation are getting their 'fair' dividend/bonus/ whatever through the use of audits and the exchange.
Just some additional thoughts. |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
206
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 21:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
OK, let me beat this ex-horse once again. (It's only pining for the fjords)
The only way it would work would be within a large player-run organization.
There must be consequences for default that are painful. The only way that could be effective would be in something like the Goons where they can kick you out, or just kill the crap out of you in their null space. Also, until we can kill people in-station, you have no ability to punish the station traders/perma-docked.
STOCK MARKETS DON'T WORK WITHOUT ENFORCEMENT. CCP WON'T DO STOCK MARKET ENFORCEMENT.
End of Story. |
Durin Sarga
Lionhearted Investment Services and Planning
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 22:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ollie,
I'm assuming you're talking about the public stock exchange that everyone in this thread has pretty much shot down as well.
I'm talking about a private stock ownership plan using a 3rd party as manager and auditor. Thus there is no need for 'consequences' as there are NO PUBLIC INVESTORS. The individual members of corporation X already are a part of the corporation. They have a vested interest in seeing corporation succeed because they themselves wish to succeed. The dividend paid out each quarter is based on the success of the corp, and the stocks are held within the confines of corp members ONLY.
When a member leaves corporation X they are 'cashed out' by the corporation and the stocks they held redistributed among the remaining members. Thus you build an internally circular model which does not depend on outside investment at all.
I see this as a half-step to a fully public corporation. Think of this more like an ESOP (ala Proctor and Gamble). This is not an IPO.
Does that make sense? |
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