Dradis - BSG

also

Image

You aren't really adding anything to the game, just giving it a more convenient means of display.
I would think this would be fairly easy to put in, because of that. Maybe I'm wrong?

The toggle on D-Scan is a nice touch, how often would it cycle?

I like having a reason to train up sensor skills. That electronics suite is neglected unless people care about probing usually...

I think you may be right about it being easy to put in, only the guys coding can say for certain though.

I don't think calling it a cycle makes sense in this context. It is a constant active item. Folks in wormholes think in cycles because they manually trigger it, like a camera taking a still shot. This is more like a live video feed than a still image, to further that analogy.

I think ships in your corp / alliance should automatically ID themselves once in range too, based on the friendly IFF concept.
This means you know if something is unspecified beyond ship type or model, you should be wary if in dangerous space...

Adds difficulty (which despite the protests of so, so many people, EVE needs.), and doesn't completely destroy any intel gathering. infact I think it makes intel gathering more useful, which it SHOULD be. Intel is one of the main components of war, after all. having easy intel just makes it a bash eachother until we're all dead game.

I keep hearing arguments on different threads, things that imply EVE players hate taking the effort to do things.

Some might say players want a first person shooter, where they can look at a menu roster and see everyone on both sides at a glance.
In some games, it even tells you what kind of role they are playing.

WH pilots have shown we can play without local.

Is everyone else trying to say these pilots are that much better, and only they can do this?

Bump for a great idea

The cloaking/scanning change would have to be evaluated more closely. Specifically, this would severely impact the effectiveness of the Pilgrim due to its short engagement range, and would practically render cloaks on black-ops, tackle stealthbombers and haulers as useless.

The cloaking/scanning change would have to be evaluated more closely. Specifically, this would severely impact the effectiveness of the Pilgrim due to its short engagement range, and would practically render cloaks on black-ops, tackle stealthbombers and haulers as useless.

Now where is the Good stuff for this. Advanced Skill module for this.
IFF Newtorking. US airforce using something similar to this to create a battlefield view.

You put on a module that sends information to your Squad, of what you see while you are Scanning,Either Active or Passive. Since this is D-scan and limited range. You spread forces out. Think of it like this Your Ships become the probes themselves. But Do not give you enough information to ever Warp to. just gets you down to about 1AU.

Once you get updated Radar information from the network drop probes have fun ;)..

Soo you get 2-3 Active scanning ships supporting your cloakly fleet. So cloakly fleet gets and idea of where to put eyes. Since Active scanning in from a Cloaky would basicly Say, "OHH HEy i'm here, please shoot me" when on grid. Remaining Passive on cloaky would help you maintain your cloak.

Mesh Networking of sensors for fleeted ships, limited to local system only.

Possibly a module, it might also need a function of a coordinating command ship.
(It looks at a map the same way a prober does, but sees what the ships detect instead of the probes)
Each ship linked by the module feeds back it's local sensor data, giving the command ship a combined sensor map of the system.
(Imagine how computers take several pictures and combine them into one panoramic view, same idea)
Said command ship can make bookmarks off of the locations the fleet ships occupy, on their behalf. Even while they are warping.
The net effect is that the command ship can coordinate and analyze data to hunt targets faster and more efficiently than any single ship, so long as they have good scouts working with them.

Command sensor ship (Cloaky?!? maybe.)
Scout ships x4 with active Sensors + Uplinks
Covert ops Scan Frig

Whoa... I sense a role for Black Ops ships here...

Intel and front line combat have never been aspects that mixed well, and it is a given the BLOPS is not a front line ship.

Add this intel coordinator function to it, and you just created the full package!

BLOPS bridges over it's intel fleet, and sets up surveillance. Quietly they map out locations for the regular fleet, and set up watching posts.

Total spy novel feel to it!

So we get a spaceship with working sensors, that we actually rely on to know whats going on?

How did we end up with local for this instead?

Cloaking should be effectively a contest of skills. The detection abilities of the target versus the cloaking abilities of the hunter.

Agreed as long as the result of the contest with maxed out skills is in favour of the cloaked ship. The issue with it being the other way around is everyone would just max out the skill required to see cloaked ships as quickly as possible and then cloaks would become pointless.

Other than that, great idea.

Sounds to me like a nerf to cloaking. The rest of the idea is alright as long as it leaves cloaking alone.

Maxxed out skill points and fitted ships will always take a backseat to actual pilot skills.

The cloaking ship will know who is looking for it. At that point, it becomes a choice as to whether they try to engage. A ship specifically fitted to hunt cloaked vessels is most practical to be avoided, and will be active scanning persistently.

Broadcasting active sensor scans lights up your ship, which is exactly why cloaked vessels would rely on passive or probes. The invisible object holding a searchlight is not covert so much as confused.

A predatory cloaked ship doesn't necessarily hunt the most difficult target, either. There are plenty of targets less challenging who are not going to active scan for fear of attracting attention.

Yeah, ok, you make some fair points. Because you can't actually find a cloaked vessel, only tell it's there, it's basically an equivalent, albeit not as powerful, intel tool to Local.

It would change wormholes though. I can see some people would say it would "ruin" wormholes but I wouldn't agree with that. It would mean you couldn't go into a WH in a cov ops cloaked tengu and be basically immune from detection. You couldn't be hunted down but someone could potentially know you're there.

Agreed as long as the result of the contest with maxed out skills is in favour of the cloaked ship. The issue with it being the other way around is everyone would just max out the skill required to see cloaked ships as quickly as possible and then cloaks would become pointless.

Other than that, great idea.

Because you can't actually find a cloaked vessel, only tell it's there, it's basically an equivalent, albeit not as powerful, intel tool to Local.

I would say it is more powerful than local. All local will tell you is something is in the system with you, and provides absolutely no other context. You could have a huge list in local, but almost all docked up in a station.

Unless you know who was in the station, that info isn't much use.

This sounds like you can run silent with passive sensors, and avoid contact unless you are willing to risk it. And that IFF thing lets you know friendly targets, so you know not to worry about them.

I would rather mine with this than local.

A couple thoughts that I'd like clarification:

1.) It sounds like: You're removing local in place of a radar-like intel system. The scan range of your ship is based on its sensor strength. All scanned information is loaded into your overview (I'd prefer to have a second overview I so I can monitor long range on side of the screen and on-grid stuff on the other, but that's not terribly relevant atm).

2.) I don't understand what you mean by active scanning verse passive scanning. Passive means you get to see what is within radar range automatically. Active means what? Does active scanning require a you to press a button for each active sweep? Active scanning appears to have benefits, but can you explain what the pros AND cons of active scanning are?

3.) Cloaking: You mentioned you can scan a cloaked ship when actively scanning, but not when you are passively scanning? Can you please elaborate. Assume max skills on both pilots (because people will max their intel gathering skills if they are important). Now if there is a drake ratting in a belt, and an enemy arazu comes into system from a distant gate. When does the ratter know that there is a new ship in system? When do they know its an enemy? How does this change change when the ratter is active scanning vs passive scanning? Also, from the Arazu's perspective, when does the arazu know there is a target in system? When would an arazu pilot fear being detected? When would an arazu pilot fear being decloaked?

4.) I would highly recommend you leave WH's alone. Leave delayed only chat, and make it so this intel system doesn't working in W-space for whatever lore reason.

A couple thoughts that I'd like clarification:

1.) It sounds like: You're removing local in place of a radar-like intel system. The scan range of your ship is based on its sensor strength. All scanned information is loaded into your overview (I'd prefer to have a second overview I so I can monitor long range on side of the screen and on-grid stuff on the other, but that's not terribly relevant atm).

2.) I don't understand what you mean by active scanning verse passive scanning. Passive means you get to see what is within radar range automatically. Active means what? Does active scanning require a you to press a button for each active sweep? Active scanning appears to have benefits, but can you explain what the pros AND cons of active scanning are?

3.) Cloaking: You mentioned you can scan a cloaked ship when actively scanning, but not when you are passively scanning? Can you please elaborate. Assume max skills on both pilots (because people will max their intel gathering skills if they are important). Now if there is a drake ratting in a belt, and an enemy arazu comes into system from a distant gate. When does the ratter know that there is a new ship in system? When do they know its an enemy? How does this change change when the ratter is active scanning vs passive scanning? Also, from the Arazu's perspective, when does the arazu know there is a target in system? When would an arazu pilot fear being detected? When would an arazu pilot fear being decloaked?

4.) I would highly recommend you leave WH's alone. Leave delayed only chat, and make it so this intel system doesn't working in W-space for whatever lore reason.

I can see scouting for fleets becoming more of a skilled job from this, and more in demand.

A fleet doesn't want to broadcast it's size and location to possible enemies, so they send out scouts to active scan and report.

A fleet wanting to make a false impression of their location can also send scouts to be spotted in other systems by possible enemies.

The strategies and tactics feel more real.

Black ops Ships would become a Scanner IFF Hub to display information coming in from Active and Passive information.

Also Command Ships, would be good in this role as while For the non Cloakly Fleets. For once the Cloak Fleet has found target and set information back to Engaging fleet, The Command Ship would be good to Recieve and transmite the Fleets Information from sensors to create an overall tactile system view.

One big note i would like to through out there is, A sensor System like this would be used to generate a System Tactical overview. It would not be Grid Overview!

I can certainly see command ships or black ops coordinating intel like this. It feels like a natural progression.

For this level, I think they might use the system map instead of the overview.
The same way it displays contacts from probe information, it could be displaying information periodically updated from reports by the field ships active scanning.
Your would want dedicated ships for those roles, with best possible sensor ability and pilot skills.

Intel would become a valuable asset even more.

There is a potential synergy effect to consider, if we follow the path of fleets using Intel Coordinating Command, (ICC), ships.
(Just came up with the name, open to suggestion if anyone has better version)

The inputs, as received from multiple scanning vessels able to cross reference and triangulate, could be capable of generating warp capable points of reference.
This is based off of similar behavior with ships using probes. The scanning ships basically act as the probes here.

The difference is that the linked ships, regardless of what scanning mode, can provide multiple aspects of reference to an active scan broadcast.
This, if enough are able to provide data, can allow the ICC ship to generate a bookmark to the active scanning ship's location at time of scan.

Just like probes, the linked ships can coordinate their active scans to locate objects in overlapping range if enough contribute data.

Unlike probes, pilot coordination is required, causing this to be more involved for group effort.

I like the Intel Coordinating Command, ICC, Ships. sounds fitting.

Basically this is what i have been getting at. Is the ships themselves at as probes.

BUT with this being said there NEEDS to be 1 major draw back, with the network of ships in support of ICC, you could never get a bookmark using this method (Can never get a pin point position).

Do threat though Why ?!?
With the ICC Wing it can get you with 1-2 AUs of a ship or Fleet you are trying to scout out, Close enough to Drop probes and Make 1-2 Sweeps with the Probes to GET the bookmark..

The Sweeps done by the Probe are uploaded to the ICC Ship (For Detailed Exact Location, Which becomes the bookmark, and transferred to the rest of the ICC Wing. IF there is an ICC Mother Ship/Titan then it will be pushed out to the rest of the fleet ;)

Combat probes still need to have a use!! Granted at 1-2 AUs mean about 30-45sec of Scanning,
Its a last line of Ohh **** someone knows where i'm at. (If the pilot is paying attention)
Its not really enough time though for someone to go **** probes, gotta move, unless they are in something FAST and Agile.

For those who believe that Local Chat is needed for intel, please ask yourself this:

Is it telling you who is attacking you?
Of course not.
Your overview does that.

Ok, then does it at least tell you when someone is on grid with you, and possibly going to attack? (Cloaked)
Of course not. At best you can see there is a pilot who is not blue to you in system.
My idea would give you a chance.

Does it tell you who is near your grid, scanning your location and possibly going to attack?
Of course not. At best you can see there is a pilot who is not blue to you in system.
My idea would give you a chance.

Does it give you information about who is at least near you in the system, so you know your surroundings?
Of course not. At best you can see there is a pilot who is not blue to you in system.
My idea would give you a chance.

If you are in high sec, the strategy changes.

They can easily use an out of corp alt to scout you down, and prep a group out of system to overwhelm you. Group then warps directly to you thanks to the scout.

In low or null, every non blue pilot is a threat already. A war dec has no impact except to remove security hits or responses.
They knew you were in system to be hunted the moment they saw you on that local chat menu.
Since you are limited to reactive options by local, you can choose to run, fight, or ignore them.

IF they actually needed to search the system to just find if you were present, that would be different.
Those agent finders might be more useful even.

Agent finders are useful in highsec war times, though, if this was to be put in place it would make agent finders work even harder. Though if i still think we should go to a Delayed Local if not remove it altogether. It would less the server load.

Delayed local would likely be less server load, although I don't know if it would make a big difference.

Still, it might just counter the load for the toggled active sensor use, which makes sense.

Best version of true sensor use I seen yet.

We aint playin some cheesecake Team Halo Fortress whatever.

Best version of true sensor use I seen yet.

We aint playin some cheesecake Team Halo Fortress whatever.

So the whole streetlamp broadcastin point is just to let pilots have a home system advantage.
Since the invaders can't see anything but the lamps, they either active scan or stay blind.

Sounds simple enough. I am assumin that these lamps would be a target for attackers then.

I like all of your ideas and I like the depth and rigor that the idea is taking on.

May I suggest that you write up a composite description that captures all of the things you have stated or mentioned in a bit more detail and then post that single long summary in this thread. If it is well received here, then i would take it to a new thread, link to this thread for reference, and then continue the discussion there.

It tends to keep things simple, easy to understand the current state of the idea, and it facilitates future discussions.

This is the third "lets add sonar to eve" topic in the last three months, and I agree with all of them.

This is the third "lets add sonar to eve" topic in the last three months, and I agree with all of them.

I have an issue with it being called sonar because of what that actually is but the concept Nik has suggested I certainly can get behind.

+1

I see something on sensors, unidentified vessel nearing our grid.

Enabling active shield hardeners, launching drones. Fleet stand by to deliver that welcome basket....

(Now doesn't that sound better and more interesting than: Hey look, some neut just showed up in local!)

Well duh!

It sounds like you are playing a spaceship game when you talk about sensors and unidentified vessels.

The welcome basket part, I dunno there....

+1, has my endorsement.
Would give more meaning to the sensor strength value and modules like backup arrays and sensor boosters.

Friendly bump in sensor range!

I know you probably don't care about it, but:

D-SCAN .... [...] D-SCAN,

is not a funny nor a gameplay-enhancing feature, and although Intel through local is OP, I can't support a "feature" forcing players to do so. It's flawed mechanic in WH allready, no need to enhance this.

TL;DR: Add passive / active D-Scan information to the overview as an option.
Passive would be no effort, active would be toggled on to give a possible chance to detect if a cloaked vessel is in range, as well as boost effective range

...

Active scans can be toggled on, but need to be reset after anything that moves you off your current grid, like undocking / changing systems / warping to another spot in system.

...

Active scanning is similar to the current D-Scan, except it should be able to auto-cycle at user set speed.

Oh well, I should read first :D

Actually, what's the difference between local and a system which scans the system every 0.5 seconds ( if you let players do this, they will do ) and warns you if there's someone dangerous?

Difference to local?

Strategic value of information has quality levels.
Someone traveling through a system will be reported by local as in the system, alongside the gank minded fellow hunting for PvE fitted targets.

You can configure your sensors, and note the relative direction and distance to know them apart, at least to the degree possible.

The guy two asteroid belts over and getting closer probably is not just passing through, while the guy moving between gates is.

End of the line - consider the whole picture, instead of "how to make my playstyle easier". This is what happened with your suggestion, and it's a bad suggestion because of it.

You misunderstand me.

I mine more than anything else, mostly on my alts. I also fly Logis, and CovOps up to and including black ops.

Parts of my "playstyle" would be changed, definitely.

The part you find me not agreeing with you about, is this:

This will give both miners and your piwates the ability to put in more effort, in exchange for better results.
Miners are not delicate flowers. Played properly, they are the backbone of many corps and alliances with the ability to draw out the foolish into exposing themselves to local fleets.

Teamwork, combined with the intel that I suggested in the OP, would make mining ops the worst target to consider in low or null.

Now, if you refer to solo players without support, they will always be at a disadvantage outside of high sec. This idea hardly makes that any worse, and in fact gives them the chance to use their wits to better survive.

Try not to make so many assumptions on my motivations.
If you have questions or points to raise, I will be happy to respond.

First of, I appologize if you are not that kind of "piwate" ( Those are the peeps most upset about local, usually coming up with "remove Intel so I can haz more miners on KB, because it bugs me that they are warping off!").

Actually, what you really want to do is more effort for less reward.

Currently, all you need is local and a quick D-scan to know whats going on. It is easy enough - you see a neut in local - you hit D-Scan - you see how many (local) and which ships (D-SCAN). If it's a cloacky - you won't see any unfamiliar ship.

Your suggestions will result in less reward, for more effort. I have to upgrade my ship's sensor strength, or add additional effort in form of dedicated scan-ships/pilots, for a "oh, there might be something" on my overview?

On the other side, cloaky's won't be detectable in a reasonable timeframe (i.e - you can't detect them before it is too late)?

srsly?

Actually, what you really want to do is more effort for less reward.

Currently, all you need is local and a quick D-scan to know whats going on. It is easy enough - you see a neut in local - you hit D-Scan - you see how many (local) and which ships (D-SCAN). If it's a cloacky - you won't see any unfamiliar ship.

Your suggestions will result in less reward, for more effort. I have to upgrade my ship's sensor strength, or add additional effort in form of dedicated scan-ships/pilots, for a "oh, there might be something" on my overview?

On the other side, cloaky's won't be detectable in a reasonable timeframe (i.e - you can't detect them before it is too late)?

[quote=Hans Momaki]
This is a space ship game with a social aspect.
Not a social network game using space ships.

Liked

YES!

(bump)

+1
Immersive intel gathering/ships sensors
vs
CHATBOX

do it ccp

I like the idea of 'sonar in space'. I think that it opens some possibilities that haven't previously been available.

I do understand the rudimentary laws of physics, including no sound in a vacuum. It was meant as an analogy. Energy waves seem the most likely candidate, totally with you on that one.

You gave me an idea though. It's probably come up before, but how about removing cloakers from local? Not only could no-one tell if they were there, but they can't see anyone else either. Cloaky Intel gathering would be a lot harder.

4.) Wormholes are a unique experience in EVE, and I have not spent enough time in them to say whether or not this would be a good fit for them. Unless CCP felt otherwise, I would leave them as is.

This would be terrible for w-space. See, for example, how to hunt in w-space using d-scan. Passive d-scan would not offer enough information to hunt a target, and any active ping would immediately reveal your presence.

Yes, it is possible to use probes, but the whole concept revolves around using d-scan to know where to put your probes so that they are visible for as short a time as possible.

This active/passive radar would fundamentally change w-space for the poorer.

This would be terrible for w-space. See, for example, how to hunt in w-space using d-scan. Passive d-scan would not offer enough information to hunt a target, and any active ping would immediately reveal your presence.

Yes, it is possible to use probes, but the whole concept revolves around using d-scan to know where to put your probes so that they are visible for as short a time as possible.

This active/passive radar would fundamentally change w-space for the poorer.

The OP here: This this this!!!

Someone please raise the bar on intel, this is really dumbing down the game to levels of duhhhh...

Seriously, it's like local blurts out: Simon says GET SAFE every time the wrong pilot enters. Where is the effort being made to earn that intel?

Agreed as long as the result of the contest with maxed out skills is in favour of the cloaked ship. The issue with it being the other way around is everyone would just max out the skill required to see cloaked ships as quickly as possible and then cloaks would become pointless.

Other than that, great idea.

edit: also to the OP, I abhor people who bump their own threads. If people care about what you posted or what you have to say, then your thread will live on organically without you having the need to bump it.

Aw heck no!

Most pilots have just gotten so used to the idea that local hands them free intel, that they are simply resisting change.

Everyone resists change, otherwise life would be chaos...

eve is already submarines in space, makes sense to add sonar type sensors.

I really really like the idea. I mean, let's face it, people that usually use D-Scan will mash the button every second causing unnecessary traffic/load (as little as it might be) and it's an artificial hindrance - make it cycle at regular intervals.

I also agree with the proposed changes to interaction with allies, cloaked ships and local (that needs to lose it's free-intel role).

Bump for an awesome idea, one of the better ones around to actually make gathering intel more interesting. Paired with delayed local in null it would make using sensors a lot more important than currently.

For WH space it would save a lot of hassle of spamming the scan button although as for cloaking it'd have to be very carefully balanced not to make it useless.

+1 for a great system idea.

Furthermore, similar to how submarines rely on passive sonar rather than passive sonar for obvious reasons, going active would make you easier to find, because all the energy involved in active sweeps is easy to track.

Where would combat probes figure in to this?

Bumping for blueberry muffins.

What? Pilots need more than just burritos and hot pockets... just sayin!

this is one of the better ideas i have seen in regards to intel. i love it!
i hope ccp would put this or something similar into the game.

Passive would emit no energy, and only receive energy from natural and artificial sources. Near a star, where energy is all over and bouncing off of everything, it can be both easier and harder to figure out what you are seeing. Like trying to hear a conversation at an airport, the background noise keeps drowning out what you are looking for.
In those circumstances, using an active scanner would be harder for another ship to notice. The artificial signal is buried underneath the wash of energy naturally present.

I would have detection of warp energy, at the entry and exit points of warp tunnels, give a non specific energy wave to any passive sensor in range. (No significant range here, but if you are close to it you know someone warped in or out close by)
(You may not be able to determine if it was coming or going, just a warp burp)

+1 I dont care for most peoples anti-local ideas, but yours op is pretty good. Im game!

i know i m a carebear in your eyes i dont like the idea since i mine and 2-3 sec delay means death without exeption even skiffs are spacedust

and not all people have x accs or are in corps with 100 active members
and no pvp guy i know would protect a mining ship while mining never ever
and i play 4 years eve mostly in 0.0

This thread is from 2012 and it's somehow still unlocked? I'm impressed.

Anyway, I looked over the OP and I like the general premise.

(Did I already post in this? I'm not going to read 10 pages from two years ago..)

I'm not saying this thread doesn't have value, just that it's dead, Jim, and it's painful to see a dead horse resurrected like this. All that can be said has been said- the last post of any substance was 4 months ago.

I don't know when the thread was locked, but the fact that the OP had the thread restored and then proceeded to fail to add new content adds weight to the fact that this thread isn't going anywhere. It should have never been unlocked and needs to go back in the archives where it belongs.

Radar/Sonar... it's a nice idea, plenty of people are in favour of it in a vague sense and have wonderful ideas about how it might work and how cool it might be, but nobody knows how to turn it into a solid, balanced game mechanic and we're hoping developers will be inspired by this thread and one day come up with something like it.

/thread

It's the same than having the d-scan auto-refresh.

But to easy to avoid fight.

Mmmh yeah, see like that, It could be a solution.

The pilot will still need to be active and refresh the dscan when non moving.