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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
claire xxx
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
33
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:30:00 -
[91] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:claire xxx wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:claire xxx wrote:
Again, I'm not saying what CCP Sreegs wrote is actually true, or that I agree with the punishment, but if they're making that determination with Hydra/Outbreak and PL/Your Votes Don't Count then the punishment should be equal for both groups. To do otherwise absolutely goes against being impartial and fair. Either everyone is held to the same standard or no one.
No, because the Hydra/Outbreak teams were actually colluding together in a single wormhole, PL/YOURVOTESDON"TCOUNT were NOT. That's not the point. The point is that CCP made the determination that PL/Your Vote Doesn't Count were in fact an A/B team, just like Hydra/Outbreak, but both sets of teams received different punishments. Ignoring the fact that the determination was made doesn't make it go away. I'm not saying PL is in the wrong, I'm saying CCP isn't being impartial with their ruling. They (CCP) stated if that an A/B scenario came up then the main alliance would be banned, which is what they did with Hydra. If they're going to stand by the determination that PL/Your Vote Doesn't Count are an A/B team then the rules and punishment should be the same. CCP shouldn't, in good conscience, half assed follow their own rules. So you honestly can't see the difference between us being very open an honest about every single dealing we've had, opening everything for them to see, and them coming back and going ok this looks too close we can't allow this other team since thats the one you've made obvious to us won't be competing if you CCP see a problem. And Hydra going "NO we're not 2 teams" then piling everybody into one corp and one wormhole and testing like one team? Those 2 instances in your mind both deserve the same punishment? I mean a simple yes or no will easily determine the validity of having a conversation with you, because they're not even close to the same thing.
Yes. I do see a difference.
But, again, that is not the point I'm making.
CCP has said that if they determine it's an A/B team scenario that they will ban the teams, including the main alliance.
CCP made the determination that PL/Your Votes Don't Count are, indeed, an A/B team (whether I agree is a moot point).
CCP then banned the team they decided was the "B" team, but not the main alliance. This goes against what they previously stated.
I'm saying I don't agree with CCP setting a standard and a punishment, making a determination that two entities have violated that standard, but not giving them equal punishment.
If CCP is going to make the determination that PL violated the same rule as Hydra (which is what CCP has stated in the original post here) and not apply the same punishment then they should unban Your Vote Doesn't Count.
Either apply the rules-determination-punishment equally, or not at all.
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
713
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:30:00 -
[92] - Quote
Duncan Tanner wrote:
All of this is very clearly outlined in Garmon's post or can be easily infered from it. However, I guess the prospect of not having to worry about us is too appealing for you.
No I think you should be in the tourney, but you were trying to be greasy and got caught, and I'm not going to let you just 'oops' your way out of it.
I would have loved to see you fight us in the tourney, you are one of the teams that challenge the field, but you should have just done that instead of trying to game the system AGAIN in the exact same way after being told you couldn't from the start.
I don't like to see you get **** on, believe it or not I was pretty happy with last years outcome, nobody told you that you couldn't do what you did and you gamed the system and won.
Only this year they put in a thing to stop you from doing that, and you HAD to try and do it anyway.
Now the rest of us have to suffer a lesser tournament because you couldn't just do it right.
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Duncan Tanner
Genos Occidere
207
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:30:00 -
[93] - Quote
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:No believe it or not I prefer a better tournament, which it obviously would be with you in it. (assuming we didn't have a repeat of last year's finals anyway)
However you're wrong about them saying you could test "like this", a senior GM said you could test against each other, nobody said that you could in effect be the same team right up until tourney starts.
Please address this point then:
Duncan Tanner wrote:Any two teams that test against each other regularly will know the exact setups of the other team anyway. Setting up two POS in the same wormhole is going to prevent this somehow? - |
Raivi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
130
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:30:00 -
[94] - Quote
Duncan Tanner wrote:@ Grath/Tyyrax/Raivi
Any two teams that test against each other regularly will know the exact setups of the other team anyway. Setting up two POS in the same wormhole is going to prevent this somehow?
Why test against each other to begin with? Unlike you or Darkside we are both actually small alliances (the same types of alliances that Sreegs claims he is championing) and we do not have enough to do full tests as separate groups.
If CCP had said you cannot test like this when we asked we could've joined into a single group or come to some other arrangement. The fact is that they did not communicate anything with us even though we approached them multiple times. In fact, the only official communication we received said we could test like this.
All of this is very clearly outlined in Garmon's post or can be easily infered from it. However, I guess the prospect of not having to worry about us is too appealing for you.
If you want to compete against each other you'd keep at least some setups in reserve for when you face each other.
There's a big difference between two teams that "test with each other on Singularity for times when more numbers are needed." and teams sharing 100% of their ships and setups and relying on each other for logistics.
If you had asked the GM if you could 100% unify your testing, logistics and theorycrafting, I have a feeling he would have given a different answer.
I do agree that CCP should have responded earlier, but honestly if you had given them the whole story you should have known the answer would have been no. |
Fish Mittens
0utbreak Outbreak.
0
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:31:00 -
[95] - Quote
The point here is that both Outbreak and Hydra sent petitions and emails asking if it would break any rules by practicing together on the Test server BEFORE we started training.
We received a fairly clear Senior GM response saying as long as we compete as separate entities in the tournament we would not be violating any rules.
If CCP had responded to our queries and told us there is a rule banning two teams from practicing together on the Test Server, we would not have done this.
Quote: Question : "I would like to be clear as to what constitutes a GÇ£BGÇ¥ team. For example, are 2 alliances sparring against each other and testing out ship setups before the tournament itself classed as breaking this rule?"
SENIOR GM RESPONSE : NO
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
713
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:32:00 -
[96] - Quote
claire xxx wrote:
Either apply the rules-determination-punishment equally, or not at all.
I guess the term "Let the Punishment Fit the Crime" is a lost concept on you.
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Duncan Tanner
Genos Occidere
207
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:34:00 -
[97] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: No I think you should be in the tourney, but you were trying to be greasy and got caught, and I'm not going to let you just 'oops' your way out of it.
I would have loved to see you fight us in the tourney, you are one of the teams that challenge the field, but you should have just done that instead of trying to game the system AGAIN in the exact same way after being told you couldn't from the start.
I don't like to see you get **** on, believe it or not I was pretty happy with last years outcome, nobody told you that you couldn't do what you did and you gamed the system and won.
Only this year they put in a thing to stop you from doing that, and you HAD to try and do it anyway.
Now the rest of us have to suffer a lesser tournament because you couldn't just do it right.
I don't seeing being completely open with them in our communication and outlining our full intentions as being greasy. A simple "no you can't practice like this" could've avoided all of this. - |
Rojo Mojo
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
5
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:35:00 -
[98] - Quote
Fish Mittens wrote:The point here is that both Outbreak and Hydra sent petitions and emails asking if it would break any rules by practicing together on the Test server BEFORE we started training. We received a fairly clear Senior GM response saying as long as we compete as separate entities in the tournament we would not be violating any rules. If CCP had responded to our queries and told us there is a rule banning two teams from practicing together on the Test Server, we would not have done this. Quote: Question : "I would like to be clear as to what constitutes a GÇ£BGÇ¥ team. For example, are 2 alliances sparring against each other and testing out ship setups before the tournament itself classed as breaking this rule?"
SENIOR GM RESPONSE : NO
What you should of asked was: "Are 2 alliances that condense into 1 corp within one of the alliances to allow for easier logistics and theory crafting considered breaking this rule?
Dont think you would of gotten the same answer. |
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
69
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:35:00 -
[99] - Quote
Duncan Tanner wrote:Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:Please address this point then:
[quote=Duncan Tanner]Any two teams that test against each other regularly will know the exact setups of the other team anyway. Setting up two POS in the same wormhole is going to prevent this somehow?
I think it's irrelevant, only thing that matters here is what it looks like to whoever's enforcing/interpreting the rules. |
Rrama Ratamnim
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
40
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:38:00 -
[100] - Quote
Kudos for catching them, i mean daymn already practicing the A-B team crap and they told you not to ....
But On that note if your going to leave Pandemic Legion in, you should leave one of the teams from Hydra or Out in...
I would say it best to have them choose which of them will be the real A team and which will stand disqualified. |
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claire xxx
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
33
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:39:00 -
[101] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:claire xxx wrote:
Either apply the rules-determination-punishment equally, or not at all.
I guess the term "Let the Punishment Fit the Crime" is a lost concept on you.
That's not the point.
The point is that CCP made a rule and said PL violated the rule then didn't apply the punishment that CCP stated they would.
CCP didn't state that there would be a lesser punishment for a lesser crime. CCP didn't even say there was a lesser crime.
It was 'if you're doing it then this is what will happen, end of story.'
Either apply the rule 100% or unban the alleged B team.
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Lazarus Telraven
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
14
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:40:00 -
[102] - Quote
Raivi wrote:Duncan Tanner wrote:@ Grath/Tyyrax/Raivi
Any two teams that test against each other regularly will know the exact setups of the other team anyway. Setting up two POS in the same wormhole is going to prevent this somehow?
Why test against each other to begin with? Unlike you or Darkside we are both actually small alliances (the same types of alliances that Sreegs claims he is championing) and we do not have enough to do full tests as separate groups.
If CCP had said you cannot test like this when we asked we could've joined into a single group or come to some other arrangement. The fact is that they did not communicate anything with us even though we approached them multiple times. In fact, the only official communication we received said we could test like this.
All of this is very clearly outlined in Garmon's post or can be easily infered from it. However, I guess the prospect of not having to worry about us is too appealing for you. If you want to compete against each other you'd keep at least some setups in reserve for when you face each other. There's a big difference between two teams that "test with each other on Singularity for times when more numbers are needed." and teams sharing 100% of their ships and setups and relying on each other for logistics. If you had asked the GM if you could 100% unify your testing, logistics and theorycrafting, I have a feeling he would have given a different answer. I do agree that CCP should have responded earlier, but honestly if you had given them the whole story you should have known the answer would have been no.
i agree 100% with Raivi, there is absolutely no plausible reason that you could have thought that it would be ok to combine everything into a single entity and still appear to be two team.
Would the tournament be better with one of the teams. Yes, but as a collective group of individuals couldnt have thought this unity would have been ok. |
Duncan Tanner
Genos Occidere
207
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:41:00 -
[103] - Quote
Raivi wrote: If you want to compete against each other you'd keep at least some setups in reserve for when you face each other.
There's a big difference between two teams that "test with each other on Singularity for times when more numbers are needed." and teams sharing 100% of their ships and setups and relying on each other for logistics.
If you had asked the GM if you could 100% unify your testing, logistics and theorycrafting, I have a feeling he would have given a different answer.
How can you claim to know how much we've shared with each other and what we haven't discussed with each other unless you are in the leadership of either group (which is actually separate this year). - |
Nex apparatu5
Fweddit
279
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:42:00 -
[104] - Quote
This is pretty bullshit, not going to lie |
Jolan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
4
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:42:00 -
[105] - Quote
hahaha... I don't even care about this... better chances for everyone else |
Zowie Powers
Hole in the wall
80
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:43:00 -
[106] - Quote
Darkside are the chief benefactors here by the looks of it, I saw a bit of faffy's hydrahate campaign, he must be feeling pretty smugdog at manipulating CCP so easily right now, I sure would be. Kudos all the way man... |
Fish Mittens
0utbreak Outbreak.
0
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:43:00 -
[107] - Quote
Rojo Mojo wrote: What you should of asked was: "Are 2 alliances that condense into 1 corp within one of the alliances to allow for easier logistics and theory crafting considered breaking this rule?
Dont think you would of gotten the same answer.
We are completely separate entities in eve, this was on the Test server remember not the actual live server. A quick look at each of our killboards and our members corp histories shows this.
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Luis Graca
14
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:43:00 -
[108] - Quote
I may be wrong but since they didn't break any rule CCP just decided to kick them because they wanted and then gave some stupid explanation
Summary: CCP being CCP |
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CCP Loxy
C C P C C P Alliance
102
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:47:00 -
[109] - Quote
Everyone, the GM response to the petition was not brought to the attention of the Alliance Tournament team and should not have been sent, this was an error that we will investigate further.
This does not change the violation of the rule by the teams Hydra Reloaded and Outbreak and the ruling will stand. We are watching teams that enter the tournament closely and in the spirit of the b and c team rule if we deem you as essentially the same "team" with two entries you will be removed from the Tournament.
The team considers this matter closed and not up for debate. Video Producer & Director of EVE Tv |
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Jolan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
4
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:48:00 -
[110] - Quote
one might say:
EVE ATX is Easy? |
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Hungry Ghost
War Tactical Groups SOLAR FLEET
9
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Posted - 2012.05.24 20:59:00 -
[111] - Quote
I really dont get it. Why exactly teams feel the need to test in a wh? Once you get an answer to that, why hydra&outbreak didnt care if they are testing in same system, but obviously do care enough about every other team to actually do testing in a wh? After answering both - can you really still go for: "We are two different teams and not at all like last year"?
As for different treatment for PL & Hydra. I will try to translate a joke form russian. Sorry if i kill it in process, but you will get the point.
Guy gets banned from swimming pool. He goes: -Why am i banned? -For pissing in a pool. -But a lot of people doing that. Maybe most. Why not ban them all? -That may be so, but you were the only one pissing from a diving board. |
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