How are PL allowed but 1 of Hydra or Outbreak not?

How are PL allowed but 1 of Hydra or Outbreak not?

PL dont train with waffles.. as waffles is generally not trusted at all(they are a feeder corp but is full of spys and whatnot). p big difference. compared to working together.

While I understand the rational for both Outbreak and Sniggwaffe not being allowed to compete, I feel banning Hydra is mistake. Hydra is a fantastic team, and puts a ridiculous amount of work into the alliance tournament. banning Hydra does not improve the quality of this tournament, drastically it reduces it.

Either ban PL too or allow hydra/outbreak to enter a single team and declare the other the B team. Or at least have the decency to admit that this entire decision is based on a grudge...

no defending champion to beat is p. lame :O

Perhaps you should have answered our multiple petitions and e-mails asking whether we were allowed to test together before we even started testing?

Will Goons and TEST also be disqualified because they also test together and are blue to each other?

Will the multiple other teams that test against each other on SiSi also be banned?

Please help me out here. Thanks.

Perhaps you should have answered our multiple petitions and e-mails asking whether we were allowed to test together before we even started testing?

Will Goons and TEST also be disqualified because they also test together and are blue to each other?

Will the multiple other teams that test against each other on SiSi also be banned?

Please help me out here. Thanks.

So two alliances create "alt teams".

Pandemic Legion - Pandemic Legion/YOUR VOTES DONT COUNT

HYDRA RELOADED - HYDRA-RELOADED/Outbreak.


Yet you ban both HYDRA teams, but only one Pandemic Legion team, meaning all the "A" rank players from both of their teams will just join up into one team.

I personally hold no "beef" with Pandemic Legion, but it appears that CCP is applying different punishments for the same offense.

That will surely provide a more competitive Alliance Tournament, where you ban all the competition to one of the highest ranked teams who is guilty of the very same things you punished the other teams for.

Wow.

I'm rather speechless.


P.S. My condolences to the HYDRA team(s), you guys are a step above the rest, too bad you don't have Dev alts in your alliance.

I would appreciate some direction and clarification regarding the roles for this yearGÇÖs alliance tournament GÇô specifically GÇ£We will be actively removing those alliances that try and add a GÇÿBGÇÖ or GÇÿCGÇÖ team. We want everyone to have a fair chance but stacking the deck in this manner will not be permitted. This removal will also include the main alliance if we detect anyone trying to field more than one team.GÇ¥
I cannot disagree with the policy, but I would like to be clear as to what constitutes a GÇ£BGÇ¥ team. For example, are 2 alliances sparring against each other and testing out ship setups before the tournament itself classed as breaking this rule?

Thanks for your time.
xxxxx

Hi,
No, as long as those alliances are not working for the same team, so to
speak. If we find out that these 2 alliances are pretty much the same
people, but created a second alliance to try and stack the deck then both
will be removed.
With kind regards,
Senior GM xxxxxxxx
The EVE Online Customer Support Team

Unfortunately Hydra and Outbreak are working from the same playbook as last year, practicing together in a single corporation on the test server in a single wormhole. We view them as they represent themselves, which mirrors how they represented themselves last year, as a single entity. For that reason they are barred from competition having entered the tournament masquerading as two units while functioning in reality as one.

Regarding Hydra and 0utbreak, our only intention this year in terms of working together is to test with each other on Singularity for times when more numbers are needed.

Last year, the relationship between the two of us was much closer than what we intend for this year. Last year, both teams acted as one entity. We created two teams for the primary purpose of having enough to practice and the secondary purpose of winning first and second together so that PL could not. Once we got to the final we made several mistakes and against our intentions the finals as a spectator event were ruined.

However for this year, even before the rules were announced, we have wanted to do things differently. Hydra and 0utbreak have been different groups on TQ for the past year and will have different people leading the teams this year. We do not intend to work together or colaborate in any way in the tournament matches starting on June 30th. We only intend to test together in the preparation through the medium of testing on SiSi. Even this we wouldn't do if getting 24 people on the test server wasn't difficult as a result of our alliances being much smaller than the large ones.

Assuming that there's no collaboration between our alliances in any way in the actual tournament, apart from testing, are we classed in the A/B team criteria?

Thanks for your time

Hello CCP Loxy,

We are putting a lot of effort in our tournament run this year. However we are very concerned that we might be breaking CCP's interpretations of certain rules without being aware of it. We want to follow the rules completely and contribute to making it an event that the Eve community appreciates and looks forward to.

We have described our intentions to CCP in our previous e-mail and we would like to know as soon as possible if what we are doing is alright. Specifically the rules are vague about how much collaboration constitues an A and B team situation. We suspect that there is no issue with testing against another team since multiple other hopeful entrants have been practicing together on SiSi this year. Again, however, we want to be sure.

If we could get a response as soon as possible it would put all of our minds at ease.

Thanks,
Hydra Reloaded

Hi,
I would appreciate some direction and clarification regarding the roles for this yearGÇÖs alliance tournament GÇô specifically GÇ£We will be actively removing those alliances that try and add a GÇÿBGÇÖ or GÇÿCGÇÖ team. We want everyone to have a fair chance but stacking the deck in this manner will not be permitted. This removal will also include the main alliance if we detect anyone trying to field more than one team.GÇ¥
I cannot disagree with the policy, but I would like to be clear as to what constitutes a GÇ£BGÇ¥ team. For example, are 2 alliances sparring against each other and testing out ship setups before the tournament itself classed as breaking this rule?

Thanks for your time.

GM xxx Sent - 5/14/2012 10:39:00 AM Hi,

No, as long as those alliances are not working for the same team, so to speak. If we find out that these 2 alliances are pretty much the same people, but created a second alliance to try and stack the deck then both will be removed.

With kind regards,
Senior GM xxx
The EVE Online Customer Support Team

In the interest of fairness shouldn't the punishment for both Hydra and Pandemic Legion be equal?

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with what's happening, but if teams are being banned because of A-B team scenario then the punishment should be the same for all.

If you're going to ban one team then ban one team from both alliances. If you're going to ban two teams then ban two teams from both alliances. Doing otherwise smacks of favoritism and doesn't leave CCP looking impartial or fair.

Just my 0.02 Isk

Case in point:

GÇ£We will be actively removing those alliances that try and add a GÇÿBGÇÖ or GÇÿCGÇÖ team. We want everyone to have a fair chance but stacking the deck in this manner will not be permitted. This removal will also include the main alliance if we detect anyone trying to field more than one team.GÇ¥

So two alliances create "alt teams".

Pandemic Legion - Pandemic Legion/YOUR VOTES DONT COUNT

HYDRA RELOADED - HYDRA-RELOADED/Outbreak.

you misunderstand the PL situation.

Sniggwaffe is a recruitment/feeder corp for PL - people spend 3 months to a year in Sniggwaffe before "graduating" into PL, this structure has been in place for a very long time and was not set up with the alliance tournament in mind.
Sniggwaffe is never part of the PL alliance as it is generally not trusted (due to low recruitment standards, op-sec concerns, etc), waffles change their alliance name every now and then for giggles but are never part of any "real" alliance.

As graduations had been held off until after the alliance tournament no waffles can just "join up into one team" and many of the AT pilots for Sniggwaffe are far from graduation anyways - even leaving CCP's restrictions on alliance changes aside there is no way PL would let them into their team.

PL members don't have access to the forum used by Sniggwaffe for AT coordination. Waffles naturally don't know anything about PL's preparations.

This decision by CCP is not entirely surprising and understandable - the division between training corp and actual alliance is not everywhere as clear as it is in PL and a precedent (with the new rule in place) could have led to exploits in future tournaments.

The decision sucks as a lot of time, effort and hopes had already been invested into AT preparation but I don't think there's any point in raging over a decision by CCP that is both reasonable and final (even if it doesn't feel fair).

Removal of the main alliance would be unfair as clarification to this rule was submitted before signups began. Since there was no response we signed up anyways hoping to get in and be ruled eligible.

Rojo,

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the actual punishment. Just saying if CCP isn't going to follow through and ban PL (as the "main alliance") (or Goons and any of their A-B teams, and anyone else doing it) then they shouldn't be banning Hydra as the "main alliance."

CCP needs to be 100% impartial and enforce rules and punishment equally.

I found your mistake Garmon!
"Of course we will get everyone in one corp for the training in Sisi because of the logistical nightmare it is."

that's not a very "seperate teams" kinda thing to do
nobody to blame but yourself really

Rojo,

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the actual punishment. Just saying if CCP isn't going to follow through and ban PL (as the "main alliance") (or Goons and any of their A-B teams, and anyone else doing it) then they shouldn't be banning Hydra as the "main alliance."

CCP needs to be 100% impartial and enforce rules and punishment equally.

Just to clarify, GSF has only entered a single team into the alliance tourney it is hard enough for us to get a single team into the tourney (see last year)

"we cannot consider them anything other than a B team for Pandemic Legion"

From the first post in thread.

Good job quoting out of context. Still mad about getting outplayed for your Adrestia I see.

Any training done in a wormhole requires everyone to be in the same corporation for using the hangers. All of PL is in one corp on SiSi all of Darkside is in one corp on SiSi.

However you miss the point entirely where we ASKED if we could do this BEFORE we did it and they said NOTHING apart from the GM who said that we could do it.

Good job quoting out of context. Still mad about getting outplayed for your Adrestia I see.

Any training done in a wormhole requires everyone to be in the same corporation for using the hangers. All of PL is in one corp on SiSi all of Darkside is in one corp on SiSi.

However you miss the point entirely where we ASKED if we could do this BEFORE we did it and they said NOTHING apart from the GM who said that we could do it.

I don't agree that it's out of context but OK

I read all your correspondence and nowhere did he say you could use the same corp for both teams on SiSi
you do realize PL is one alliance right ? it's not two alliances testing against each other and sharing logistics / theorycraft / planning
same with Darkside.

are goons and test alliance using the same corp on sisi ? or are they you know actually seperate teams doing their own logistics, theorycraft and preparation in general

but yeah obviously I'm just buttmad about an adrestia (lol)

Rojo,

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the actual punishment. Just saying if CCP isn't going to follow through and ban PL (as the "main alliance") (or Goons and any of their A-B teams, and anyone else doing it) then they shouldn't be banning Hydra as the "main alliance."

CCP needs to be 100% impartial and enforce rules and punishment equally.

I don't agree that it's out of context but OK

I read all your correspondence and nowhere did he say you could use the same corp for both teams on SiSi
you do realize PL is one alliance right ? it's not two alliances testing against each other and sharing logistics / theorycraft / planning
same with Darkside.

are goons and test alliance using the same corp on sisi ? or are they you know actually seperate teams doing their own logistics, theorycraft and preparation in general

but yeah obviously I'm just buttmad about an adrestia (lol)

I can't speak for what information Hydra gave CCP, but I can speak on the situation with the Waffles.

Both YOUR VOTES DONT COUNT and PL have been completely aboveboard with CCP from the start about the nature of our relationship and how we are connected, even going so far as to tell CCP things they might not have otherwise known about us (even if that information might encourage them to disallow the entry) so that they wouldn't discover anything later that puts our statements into doubt. Everything we asserted about our teams could be backed up by logs on the test server.

We were never attempting to represent our relationship as anything other than what it is, from start to finish.

Understand that testing in regular space is different than testing in a wormhole. Explain to me how you can test with two teams in a wormhole?

Are you seriously arguing that we should've had two corps in the wormhole with two pos and two sets of everything as proof of being separate?

That we tested together isn't even the issue.

Again, I'm not saying what CCP Sreegs wrote is actually true, or that I agree with the punishment, but if they're making that determination with Hydra/Outbreak and PL/Your Votes Don't Count then the punishment should be equal for both groups. To do otherwise absolutely goes against being impartial and fair. Either everyone is held to the same standard or no one.

I expected CCP to pull this, but not to do it while simultaneously green lighting PL to do it's A-B team thing again. That bit did surprise me.

Understand that testing in regular space is different than testing in a wormhole. Explain to me how you can test with two teams in a wormhole?

Are you seriously arguing that we should've had two corps in the wormhole with two pos and two sets of everything as proof of being separate?

That we tested together isn't even the issue. The issue is that we asked for clarification and outlined our full intentions before we did ANYTHING and received no response until now.

Understand that testing in regular space is different than testing in a wormhole. Explain to me how you can test with two teams in a wormhole?

Are you seriously arguing that we should've had two corps in the wormhole with two pos and two sets of everything as proof of being separate?

That we tested together isn't even the issue. The issue is that we asked for clarification and outlined our full intentions before we did ANYTHING and received no response until now.

No, because the Hydra/Outbreak teams were actually colluding together in a single wormhole, PL/YOURVOTESDON"TCOUNT were NOT.

You dont seem to understand. The rules are not the same for everyone, regardless if you are told what you are doing is ok

That's not the point. The point is that CCP made the determination that PL/Your Vote Doesn't Count were in fact an A/B team, just like Hydra/Outbreak, but both sets of teams received different punishments.

Ignoring the fact that the determination was made doesn't make it go away.

I'm not saying PL is in the wrong, I'm saying CCP isn't being impartial with their ruling. They (CCP) stated if that an A/B scenario came up then the main alliance would be banned, which is what they did with Hydra. If they're going to stand by the determination that PL/Your Vote Doesn't Count are an A/B team then the rules and punishment should be the same.

CCP shouldn't, in good conscience, half assed follow their own rules.

Not the happiest about this decision, but the logic makes sense.

HYDRA and Outbreak making the argument that they're not going to collude, but is it ok if they test all their fits and fleets against each other in the same manner as last year? Seems fishy to me.

And all this because they decided to show boat in the finals.

So you honestly can't see the difference between us being very open an honest about every single dealing we've had, opening everything for them to see, and them coming back and going ok this looks too close we can't allow this other team since thats the one you've made obvious to us won't be competing if you CCP see a problem.

And

Hydra going "NO we're not 2 teams" then piling everybody into one corp and one wormhole and testing like one team?


Those 2 instances in your mind both deserve the same punishment?

I mean a simple yes or no will easily determine the validity of having a conversation with you, because they're not even close to the same thing.

All of this is very clearly outlined in Garmon's post or can be easily infered from it. However, I guess the prospect of not having to worry about us is too appealing for you.

No believe it or not I prefer a better tournament, which it obviously would be with you in it. (assuming we didn't have a repeat of last year's finals anyway)

However you're wrong about them saying you could test "like this", a senior GM said you could test against each other, nobody said that you could in effect be the same team right up until tourney starts.

Any two teams that test against each other regularly will know the exact setups of the other team anyway. Setting up two POS in the same wormhole is going to prevent this somehow?

@ Grath/Tyyrax/Raivi

Any two teams that test against each other regularly will know the exact setups of the other team anyway. Setting up two POS in the same wormhole is going to prevent this somehow?

Why test against each other to begin with? Unlike you or Darkside we are both actually small alliances (the same types of alliances that Sreegs claims he is championing) and we do not have enough to do full tests as separate groups.

If CCP had said you cannot test like this when we asked we could've joined into a single group or come to some other arrangement. The fact is that they did not communicate anything with us even though we approached them multiple times. In fact, the only official communication we received said we could test like this.

All of this is very clearly outlined in Garmon's post or can be easily infered from it. However, I guess the prospect of not having to worry about us is too appealing for you.

Question : "I would like to be clear as to what constitutes a GÇ£BGÇ¥ team. For example, are 2 alliances sparring against each other and testing out ship setups before the tournament itself classed as breaking this rule?"

SENIOR GM RESPONSE : NO

Either apply the rules-determination-punishment equally, or not at all.

No I think you should be in the tourney, but you were trying to be greasy and got caught, and I'm not going to let you just 'oops' your way out of it.

I would have loved to see you fight us in the tourney, you are one of the teams that challenge the field, but you should have just done that instead of trying to game the system AGAIN in the exact same way after being told you couldn't from the start.


I don't like to see you get **** on, believe it or not I was pretty happy with last years outcome, nobody told you that you couldn't do what you did and you gamed the system and won.

Only this year they put in a thing to stop you from doing that, and you HAD to try and do it anyway.

Now the rest of us have to suffer a lesser tournament because you couldn't just do it right.

The point here is that both Outbreak and Hydra sent petitions and emails asking if it would break any rules by practicing together on the Test server BEFORE we started training.

We received a fairly clear Senior GM response saying as long as we compete as separate entities in the tournament we would not be violating any rules.

If CCP had responded to our queries and told us there is a rule banning two teams from practicing together on the Test Server, we would not have done this.

I guess the term "Let the Punishment Fit the Crime" is a lost concept on you.

If you want to compete against each other you'd keep at least some setups in reserve for when you face each other.

There's a big difference between two teams that "test with each other on Singularity for times when more numbers are needed." and teams sharing 100% of their ships and setups and relying on each other for logistics.

If you had asked the GM if you could 100% unify your testing, logistics and theorycrafting, I have a feeling he would have given a different answer.

I do agree that CCP should have responded earlier, but honestly if you had given them the whole story you should have known the answer would have been no.

If you want to compete against each other you'd keep at least some setups in reserve for when you face each other.

There's a big difference between two teams that "test with each other on Singularity for times when more numbers are needed." and teams sharing 100% of their ships and setups and relying on each other for logistics.

If you had asked the GM if you could 100% unify your testing, logistics and theorycrafting, I have a feeling he would have given a different answer.

What you should of asked was: "Are 2 alliances that condense into 1 corp within one of the alliances to allow for easier logistics and theory crafting considered breaking this rule?

Dont think you would of gotten the same answer.