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GTN
tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.07.28 11:38:00 -
[1]
tried it this morning, and in my opinion there isnt enough fuel bay, and too much ammo bay, too much ammo bay means im not gonna use all the ammo before i run out of stront. whats going to happen when this is introduced in TQ: dreadnoughts will run out of stront very soon in capital fleet fights and will stop shooting, defenseless and bubbled cant do anything but die to carriers, and if both fleet have carriers well, no one is going to die cause of insane RR and poor dps. or someone will have to risk a capital industrial ship to bring in strontium (ammo is not a problem).
pos bash is gonna become expensive as ppl will have to jump out, refuel, and jump back in often
thanks ccp, now dreadnoughts are a finger in the *** :P
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FlameGlow
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.28 13:30:00 -
[2]
What are the current bay sizes on dreads, carriers and blackops? _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
Krem daBrut
Marquie-X Corp Atropos.
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Posted - 2009.07.28 14:22:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Krem daBrut on 28/07/2009 14:24:52 Carrier have 3000 m^3 Fuelbay = 20k Isotopes
Blackops 1000 m^3Fuelbay
Dread 7000 m^3 (examp. 20k isotopes + 1200 Stontium) Naglfar have 2250m^3 Ammo Hold, the other dreads have less
edit: all those ships have now less normal cargo bay. the fuelbay is accessible in space
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Vrenth
Gallente Lightning Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.28 16:16:00 -
[4]
Originally by: GTN
thanks ccp, now dreadnoughts are a finger in the *** :P
hmm, I seem to remember a time where they had 0m3 fuel bay.... oh wait... that is NOW.... --------------------------------- Let's make CLONE VATS useful! |
Hoshi
Eviction.
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Posted - 2009.07.28 16:55:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Hoshi on 28/07/2009 16:57:04 Fuel bay + normal cargo hold = old cargo hold (more or less). So you can still have as much stront as before while getting a dedicated ammo bay as a bonus.
Edit: But it is a heavy nerf to Chribbas veldnough. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Vrenth
Gallente Lightning Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.28 17:13:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Hoshi Edited by: Hoshi on 28/07/2009 16:57:04 Fuel bay + normal cargo hold = old cargo hold (more or less). So you can still have as much stront as before while getting a dedicated ammo bay as a bonus.
Edit: But it is a heavy nerf to Chribbas veldnough.
Or any capital ship that is used for something other than combat...
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.07.28 17:15:00 -
[7]
tbh I'm all for this change as the changes have far more positive impact than the cargo size of the Veldy, ofc it's sad to see it's large hold go, but for the better I think. Just means more trips to the station to offload
Unless it magically stays at its current size hehe
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Sera Ryskin
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Posted - 2009.07.28 19:20:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 28/07/2009 19:23:02 Oh FFS, does anyone even bother thinking before they post? If you don't have enough fuel in the fuel bay, then put some more fuel in the cargo bay. Seriously, this is not complicated. You can move fuel from the cargo bay into the fuel bay while in space, so what exactly is the problem? You now have more total cargo space, so this is a boost with no drawbacks.
The only "loss" here is a bit of hauling ability, but carriers used most of their cargo space for fuel anyway (hauling with the maintenance bay and corporate hangars), and I don't really see any reason to care about a nerf to cargo expanded hauler dreads.
For example, my carrier:
Pre-boost: 3475m3 cargo bay.
Post-boost: 870m3 cargo bay + 3000m3 fuel bay = 3870m3 total, a gain of 395m3.
Since most of the time I would carry at least 3000m3 of fuel anyway, this is a pure boost. ==========
Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
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Vrenth
Gallente Lightning Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.28 21:07:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Vrenth on 28/07/2009 21:08:24
Originally by: Sera Ryskin Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 28/07/2009 19:23:02 Oh FFS, does anyone even bother thinking before they post? If you don't have enough fuel in the fuel bay, then put some more fuel in the cargo bay. Seriously, this is not complicated. You can move fuel from the cargo bay into the fuel bay while in space, so what exactly is the problem? You now have more total cargo space, so this is a boost with no drawbacks.
The only "loss" here is a bit of hauling ability, but carriers used most of their cargo space for fuel anyway (hauling with the maintenance bay and corporate hangars), and I don't really see any reason to care about a nerf to cargo expanded hauler dreads.
For example, my carrier:
Pre-boost: 3475m3 cargo bay.
Post-boost: 870m3 cargo bay + 3000m3 fuel bay = 3870m3 total, a gain of 395m3.
Since most of the time I would carry at least 3000m3 of fuel anyway, this is a pure boost.
I do agree that it is technically a boost, but it's also a nerf. I think with a feature added like this, it should be purely an addition. If they are going to take away our cargos, which are expandable, they need to add a bit more of a fuel bay to the ship. It was my understanding the PURPOSE of the fuel bay was to free up room in the cargo for other things. Doing it this way was just a smack in the face saying "You don't need any other things in that ship, you must follow the path we have layed out for you. You are a mindless PvP monkey."
I personally usually end up filling most of my corporate hanger with fuel as well, as I use triage with my carrier. That goes to say that carriers need a larger fuel bay if we are being forced to put fuel in other places. If we need more fuel to function, we need more space to put it.
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Sera Ryskin
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Posted - 2009.07.28 21:30:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 28/07/2009 21:30:52
Originally by: Vrenth I do agree that it is technically a boost, but it's also a nerf. I think with a feature added like this, it should be purely an addition. If they are going to take away our cargos, which are expandable, they need to add a bit more of a fuel bay to the ship.
1) Can we please limit this discussion to real setups, not comedy setups (cargo expanders on a capital ship)?
2) You DO get more space than before. Maybe not as much as you'd like, but this is a net gain in most cases. ==========
Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
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Issea
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Posted - 2009.07.28 22:01:00 -
[11]
The fuel bay on the black ops is barely enough to bridge a single stealth bomber - it's not enough to bridge ONE reconship. I overcame this by using 5 T2 cargo expanders and 2 cargo rigs. That gave enough cargohold to bridge 3 recon's and 3 bombers before i had to refuel. This is not even possible now, the fuel bay cannot be expanded by the new design.
The black ops can jump it self, fine - but the bridge option really need alot of work. Either drop the fuel need to 10% or increase the fuel bay to 10000 m3.
The fuel bay need alot of love, that's for sure!
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GTN
tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.07.28 22:28:00 -
[12]
you lose about 1800m3 of space with this patch cause u cant have giant containers in cargo anymore
and btw i used to haul stuff with my naglfar pre-patch: 44k m3 cargohold with t2 expanders avatar (i dont fly it) could carry 480k m3 pre-patch with 3 t1 rigs: its like 2 JF in 1
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Aramith
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Posted - 2009.07.28 22:39:00 -
[13]
Originally by: GTN you lose about 1800m3 of space with this patch cause u cant have giant containers in cargo anymore
and btw i used to haul stuff with my naglfar pre-patch: 44k m3 cargohold with t2 expanders avatar (i dont fly it) could carry 480k m3 pre-patch with 3 t1 rigs: its like 2 JF in 1
oh darn you cant use your combat ship to out preform a non-combat ship anymore. Last time i checked, combat ships were designed to be used in combat, not turned into glorified haulers because some of the requirements for them to actually be used in combat also allowed for certain set-ups that would allow them to out perform the ships actually designed to haul stuff.
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achoura
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Posted - 2009.07.28 22:52:00 -
[14]
Well bops arn't a fair comparison to caps. The redeemers 1k fuel bay is great on paper but it's fuel use is still chronic, may as well not be there until that gets fixed. Dreads, well no one want to try shifting fuel from one bay to another under pos lag, it's just asking for an extremly expensive loss you have no control over. Carriers are catch 22. On one hand jf are the haulers of choice but for smaller amounts carriers have sufficed. Aside from being 6/7 times cheaper to loose They're actually capable of defending or at least surviving an assault long enough to receive aid. The first one is basically a worthless change (currently) where as the latter pair are going to cause irritation to players.
Unfortunately the general populous has reached the stage where they've realised just how vulnerable jf are, being ganked by moms at pos beacons. It would be nice knowing what criteria ccp used when selecting the fuel bay sizes, obviously it's a change that will take time to adjust too, but it may ease the irritated ones into understanding why.
***The EVE servers and their patches*** |
GTN
tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.07.28 23:08:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Aramith
Originally by: GTN you lose about 1800m3 of space with this patch cause u cant have giant containers in cargo anymore
and btw i used to haul stuff with my naglfar pre-patch: 44k m3 cargohold with t2 expanders avatar (i dont fly it) could carry 480k m3 pre-patch with 3 t1 rigs: its like 2 JF in 1
oh darn you cant use your combat ship to out preform a non-combat ship anymore. Last time i checked, combat ships were designed to be used in combat, not turned into glorified haulers because some of the requirements for them to actually be used in combat also allowed for certain set-ups that would allow them to out perform the ships actually designed to haul stuff.
so now for hauling 30k m3 i cant use my dread anymore, i must buy skills, train skills, and buy a 5 billion JF that im gonna use once in a month? kill yourself
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Vrenth
Gallente Lightning Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.28 23:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: GTN
so now for hauling 30k m3 i cant use my dread anymore, i must buy skills, train skills, and buy a 5 billion JF that im gonna use once in a month? kill yourself
QFT
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Mona X
Caldari Polish Task Forces C0VEN
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Posted - 2009.07.29 01:03:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Mona X on 29/07/2009 01:04:46 Edited by: Mona X on 29/07/2009 01:04:36
Originally by: Aramith
oh darn you cant use your combat ship to out preform a non-combat ship anymore. Last time i checked, combat ships were designed to be used in combat, not turned into glorified haulers because some of the requirements for them to actually be used in combat also allowed for certain set-ups that would allow them to out perform the ships actually designed to haul stuff.
Giants are't used only for simple hauling. 1800m3 is a lot additional fuel, stront and ammo.
Originally by: Vrenth
Originally by: GTN
so now for hauling 30k m3 i cant use my dread anymore, i must buy skills, train skills, and buy a 5 billion JF that im gonna use once in a month? kill yourself
QFT
Or you could buy skills, train skills, and buy a 1.5 billion Rorqual. :P
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Rhohan
Minmatar Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2009.07.29 01:21:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Issea The fuel bay on the black ops is barely enough to bridge a single stealth bomber - it's not enough to bridge ONE reconship. I overcame this by using 5 T2 cargo expanders and 2 cargo rigs. That gave enough cargohold to bridge 3 recon's and 3 bombers before i had to refuel. This is not even possible now, the fuel bay cannot be expanded by the new design.
The black ops can jump it self, fine - but the bridge option really need alot of work. Either drop the fuel need to 10% or increase the fuel bay to 10000 m3.
The fuel bay need alot of love, that's for sure!
Sounds like you need to train the Jump Fuel Conservation skill. It does affect the efficency of the Jump Bridge.
You should be able to jump 4 Recons nearly max range with JFC IV with the current 1000m3 Fuel Bay.
You can jump approx 8 CovOps per Recon, since fuel usage is based upon Mass, and Recons have apporx 8 times the Mass of CovOps.
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Aukre
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Posted - 2009.07.29 07:42:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Rhohan
Originally by: Issea The fuel bay on the black ops is barely enough to bridge a single stealth bomber - it's not enough to bridge ONE reconship. I overcame this by using 5 T2 cargo expanders and 2 cargo rigs. That gave enough cargohold to bridge 3 recon's and 3 bombers before i had to refuel. This is not even possible now, the fuel bay cannot be expanded by the new design.
The black ops can jump it self, fine - but the bridge option really need alot of work. Either drop the fuel need to 10% or increase the fuel bay to 10000 m3.
The fuel bay need alot of love, that's for sure!
Sounds like you need to train the Jump Fuel Conservation skill. It does affect the efficency of the Jump Bridge.
You should be able to jump 4 Recons nearly max range with JFC IV with the current 1000m3 Fuel Bay.
You can jump approx 8 CovOps per Recon, since fuel usage is based upon Mass, and Recons have apporx 8 times the Mass of CovOps.
Seems that if a Black Ops is going to be bridging anything other than itself around, someone's going to need to fly a Blockade Runner alongside it just to hold the fuel.
Out of curiosity, what is the average fuel requirement to bridge a bomber/covops/recon/blockade runner?
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Rhohan
Minmatar Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2009.07.29 09:03:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Aukre
Out of curiosity, what is the average fuel requirement to bridge a bomber/covops/recon/blockade runner?
All of these are with JFC IV Bridging 1 Light Year. Max distance is 4.5 ly with JDC V.
CovOps/Bomber: ~45 Iso (7m3) Recon: ~375 Iso (56m3) Blockade Runner: ~325 Iso (48m3) Another BlackOps: ~4850 Iso (725m3)
A Black Ops jumping 1 ly: 180 Iso (27m3)
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Rivqua
Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2009.07.29 11:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Rhohan
Originally by: Aukre
Out of curiosity, what is the average fuel requirement to bridge a bomber/covops/recon/blockade runner?
All of these are with JFC IV Bridging 1 Light Year. Max distance is 4.5 ly with JDC V.
CovOps/Bomber: ~45 Iso (7m3) Recon: ~375 Iso (56m3) Blockade Runner: ~325 Iso (48m3) Another BlackOps: ~4850 Iso (725m3)
A Black Ops jumping 1 ly: 180 Iso (27m3)
You would nearly never bridge another blackops, as it could just jump to the same cyno you are using yourself. _________________ - Rivqua - --- R.E.P.O. --- |
Nhaz
Foundation Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.07.29 13:47:00 -
[22]
I have to agree that this is a nerf. I currently can carry more fuel in isotopes and stront with a giant secure and the regular cargo bay, then I can with the fuel bay setup on the test server. _____________________________________________
It's NOT paranoia, If they REALLY ARE out to get you! |
Grez
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.07.29 14:08:00 -
[23]
At about 6k, the fuel bay would be perfect. 40k fuel is enough to last a few jumps at max range. ---
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Rhohan
Minmatar Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2009.07.30 05:42:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Rivqua
You would nearly never bridge another blackops, as it could just jump to the same cyno you are using yourself.
That's correct, it was added for comparison only. It gives you an idea of the inefficiency of the Jump Bridge.
As it is, the max range you could bridge another BlackOps with the current 1000m3 fuel bay is approx 1.3 ly, yet with its own jump drive, it can go nearly 40 ly with the same amount of fuel. Approx 30 times the distance.
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Tairon Usaro
The X-Trading Company RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.30 08:09:00 -
[25]
the whole concept is CRAP !!! ________________________________________________ Some days i loose, some days the others win ... |
Alexander Knott
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:55:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Sera Ryskin 1) Can we please limit this discussion to real setups, not comedy setups (cargo expanders on a capital ship)?
2) You DO get more space than before. Maybe not as much as you'd like, but this is a net gain in most cases.
(1) I've done it in certain extreme circumstances. You wouldn't do it in a combat fit, but when moving ships around it's perfectly valid.
(2) No, you really don't. Prior to this people kept fuel in GSCs which they can no longer do.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.07.30 15:39:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Tairon Usaro the whole concept is CRAP !!!
I agree. I can't tell yet whether Dreads will be about the same, a little better, or a little worse. Many dread pilots use 2x GSC.
Carriers are being nerfed again, though. The BS-sized cargo hold is a complete joke. Also, I normally take 24K isotopes in my current carrier setup (Thanatos with Huge Secure), along with enough ozone for a cyno activation or two, and a couple non-capital mods all in the cargo hold.
The problem with these changes comes when you want to move extra capital ship modules. Currently, you can choose to cargo expand a dread or carrier to do so if you wish. If the sisi changes go live, you won't be able to use a dread for that, and you're severely cutting into the carrier's ability to use cargo expanders to haul extra anything.
Increase Carriers' CHA to 15K-20K, and I wouldn't have a problem with it. Dreads might be ok as proposed.
In general, I saw no need to change anything in current stats as far as capitals go. If they wanted to add a fuel bay to blackops and cyno ships without screwing around with capitals, I wouldn't oppose that.
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Sertan Deras
Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.07.30 17:09:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Sertan Deras on 30/07/2009 17:10:25 This is actually a net gain from the Dread perspective (at least for the Revelation, which is what I fly), but all the Carriers are getting utterly creamed.
Carriers did not all the sudden start using half the fuel, and even if you say "Carriers don't use as much stront", pro Carrier pilots also have liquid ozone on them at all times for cynos, so the total space used should all but even out. There is no logical reason that the carrier should have half the fuel bay of a Dreadnought.
It's a sad joke that capitals can no longer carry their own mods in their cargo hold.
As someone said in one of the other fuel bay threads. Do the designers even play this game or fly capital ships?
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