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Tallaran Kouros
Caldari Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.08.03 09:27:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Enakaru
And chavs didn't come out of nowhere, they are a product of bad education, destabilized society and families, leaving them without care or attention which leads them out on the street creating havoc
Yep, there are very real social problems that need solved.
Quote: You don't solve crime by putting ppl in prison, you solve crime by giving ppl freedom.. because with freedom comes understanding and with the ability to live a good life without having to screw ppl over to get there comes an actual civilized society.
I'm not sure I really agree with you on this one.
If you walk around any inner-city estate where there are drugs, unemployment, broken homes and lack of opportunity, exactly what "freedom" is it that you think people lack?
The Government needs to work to solve these social problems yes, but on top of that people need a good kick up the arse to encourage them to help themselves too.
It's not easy to get out of a scheme and away from that lifestyle, but if you work hard and save your money then you CAN go to college and get an HNC or an HND and you CAN get a better job that pays more money. Once you have gone that far, you can find a house in a better area and work harder at improving your situation even more.
The problem is that all the above requires HARD WORK. It's not easy to get a job when you live in a scheme and you may have to commute quite a bit. It's not easy to save money in minimum wage either and it's some people have never worked a day in their life.
It's "easier" to live on benefits and let the tax payer pay your way and that's the problem we need to solve. People DO already have the freedom to go out and improve their situation as best they can, but why bother when a minimum wage job will leave you only slightly better off than you would be on benefits?
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TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance
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Posted - 2009.08.03 11:40:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Xen Gin
Originally by: rValdez5987 [UK] Installing cameras aimed into your house
Actually says England on the original express story. They can't actually force this crap onto Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
I love living in wales.
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Munchees
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.03 11:40:00 -
[33]
So how come people in the UK haven't revolted? There's a reason why they aren't an Empire anymore and it's because the government there forgot how to put down revolutions in the 18th century.
The only way to save yourselves is a revolt that lets people have rights of some sort. Hell if you guys say it's "for freedom" etc the US might help you instead of the government currently in power.
Originally by: Mr Reeth
Why is it every time I read somebody call all Americans stupid I hear it in a British accent and think of this |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.08.03 11:42:00 -
[34]
England should apply for stateship in the US. Then we can import some los angles cops and show the chavs what happens when you **** with the man.
Originally by: Vaden Khale He's doing the moonwalk in HEE-hee-hell.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.03 12:04:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Munchees So how come people in the UK haven't revolted? There's a reason why they aren't an Empire anymore and it's because the government there forgot how to put down revolutions in the 18th century.
The empire peaked in size and power around the early 20th century.
The reason it is no more is because (1) empires are expensive and (2) dismantling it was explicitly the policy of the US govt after WW2.
The Chav culture can be prety directly traced back to Thatcherism. Anyone remember "There is no such thing as society"? Well a generation took her at her word.
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Tallaran Kouros
Caldari Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.08.03 12:07:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Munchees So how come people in the UK haven't revolted? There's a reason why they aren't an Empire anymore and it's because the government there forgot how to put down revolutions in the 18th century.
The only way to save yourselves is a revolt that lets people have rights of some sort. Hell if you guys say it's "for freedom" etc the US might help you instead of the government currently in power.
Because it's nothing to do with "freedom".
If you read my response, you will see that it's hard to identify any particular freedoms that everyone seems to think us Brits lack.
This isn't about freedom, it's about failed social policies and how the Government needs to invest real money into improving our communities and getting people away from drugs and crime and into jobs that will help them become productive members of society.
A lifetime on benefits helps nobody, but if you provide the opportunities and clean up our inner city estates then you can start to make a real difference.
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Tallaran Kouros
Caldari Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.08.03 12:08:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Malcanis
The Chav culture can be prety directly traced back to Thatcherism. Anyone remember "There is no such thing as society"? Well a generation took her at her word.
Quoted for truth.
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Iasius
Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.08.03 12:52:00 -
[38]
There has been a report in the UK that says social mobility is the same in 2009 as it was in 1900. That is working class people still have a glass ceiling in breaking into the professional classes.
Though what did happen in the 80's is that a lot of working class people moved up to middle class. People that had skilled crafts like electricians and plumbers. But also a lot of working class people that could not adapt after the decline in mass manufacturing ended up in a rut. The latter has suffered an identiy crisis.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. ~Saint |
Enakaru
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Posted - 2009.08.03 13:04:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Munchees So how come people in the UK haven't revolted?
A revolution is all about the minds of the people, because if the minds of the people are not changed to where they desire to be free and not to control people, then a revolution where you pick up your guns and start shooting will ultimately fail. Why?
Because
a) It makes the government the enemy and allows the government to send in the military with the excuse of the revolutionaries being nutjobs that are insane or crazy or dangerous to society.
b) A revolution has no point if when the dust settles the next generation will simply repeat the same thing if there minds are not changed towards striving for liberty.
d) Nobody wants to die, so there will be many who will be too scared to stand up for it with guns, and will let the few who stand up for it be massacred by the military unless their minds are changed on beforehand to change the system into something better when it is over.
e) You picking up your guns and starting to shoot in an anarchistical fashion without any direction or ideology whatsoever, is the wet dream of any wouldbe dictator. Because you can send in the military mow down the opposition, with the pretense of protecting society. And use it as a pretense to quell any future dissent.
So how will a revolution actually work:
A revolution will actually work when it has:
a) Purpose and a common ideology that benefits people.. striving for something true, rather than another lie.
b) Public support; By non violent and peaceful protesting and spreading information informing the public about what is taking place so that they can not be lied to, or mislead into believing propaganda.
c) By forcing the hand of the wouldbe dictators into hastening their plans to the extent that it becomes so obvious that they are the ones doing it, so that they can not blame the events on others and are forced to admit their agenda, in order to do it quick and dirty. Putting the truth of the matters right in the face of people.
When people have understood what is really going on and understood that it is not in their best interest to the extent that even the military and police understand that they will not be spared, and therefore refuse to carry out the orders.. then no tyranny and no dictatorship can succeed. For facism has only few leaders and humanity are many.
A revolution that works starts by becoming aware of an issue, and pointing it out to such an extent that it becomes so obvious that most people know what is happening, and then the system falls apart because a tyrrany needs its slaves to build their own prison and put it in place, and if the slaves stop doing so before the prison is complete. Then the house of cards falls down harder than a hammer..
Allow me in the lue of the moment to entertain you with an american example of this move towards increased surveillance and government control into things it should have no business in controlling.
Minority Report 2 - Infinite detention
See you can't stop crime by predicting it before it happens, they know this.. it is science fiction of such things.
The reason why they suggest these things is because they know it will fail, its real use will be to detain anyone who they don't like or who wants to speak out. But you see.. they need you to build your own prison, and you can't build your own prison if you refuse to keep building it.
Maybe it's all wrong, maybe it's all mumbojumbo.. but i'd say.. that when you got security cameras so far up your law abiding butt that you can allmost smell it, at one point you must come to realize, that it is not really put there to fight Al Qaeda. And that's exactly when you begin to understand that you can actually do something about it, and understand why they want you to believe that you can't change anything. Not because they are powerful, but because they are afraid of you.
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Iasius
Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.08.03 13:08:00 -
[40]
Problem with revolutions is that you get the idealist air heads who do it. But the corrupt officials of the old regime creep back into power as they have their hands on the lever of power. Its about power networks. This happened particulary in Romania i think. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. ~Saint |
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Ratchman
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Posted - 2009.08.03 14:08:00 -
[41]
Revolution is a big step, and were all still too comfortable to risk losing it all. The same would happen in America too. Who'd want to run the risk of becoming an 'enemy of the state' and ending up on some redition flight bound for a secret torture camp hidden away somewhere. Who's going to revolt and risk that just for some cameras?
And this is the problem.
People don't think enough about the way policy is made, and they don't complain loudly enough when such measures are introduced. But if you slowly let them erode your rights, you'll eventually end up with none. Stand up against such things now, while you can resolve things by debate, and it won't become necessary to take greater risks further down the line. Apathy is the shortest route to being controlled.
CCTV has been used in the UK as a substitute for policemen for a very long time now. The only reason George Orwells vision of a surveillance state never came to pass is that there's nobody watching those cameras. After all, those people cost money too. You watch if this project goes national. The cameras will go up, and nothing will change, because the budget won't stretch as far as employing someone to watch the cameras.
What you need in these areas, are policemen with common sense, and a mandate that doesn't hamstring them from dealing with issues, and allows them to record incidents without drowning them in paperwork and administration work.
Plus, with the growing worldwide population, I think we should seriously consider forms of population control and social engineering, such as introducing a child licence. After all, how many times do you see irresponsible people breeding like rabbits, only to beat and torture their children until they inflict their own pain on the rest of society.
Even if you see the ability to have children as a right, you cannot argue the need to prevent unfit parents from breeding. After all, aren't the rights of the child, even one that hasn't come into existence yet, more important? Better the child not be born, than born into a life of misery.
I'm sure that if the ASBO came with a mandatory sterilisation notice, you'd see far fewer people ever getting them.
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Enakaru
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:25:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Enakaru on 03/08/2009 15:28:09 Ratchman, i liked what you said up till the overpopulation and one child policies rant.
There's certain people i just can't trust, don't mean they're bad just means i don't trust them.
I don't trust anyone who says the world is overpopulated nor do i trust anyone who says that manmade global warming or.. climate change.. or our deteriorating atmosphere as it has now been switched to.. is real.
And i don't because, all the evidence points to the contrary.
Show me the evidence of overpopulation that is a direct result of lack of space rather than poor distribution channels, bad infrastructure or economic reasons, and show me the evidence of manmade global warming on mars saturn and jupiter.. and i might start to take you seriously.
I do however see a lot of ppl trying to make money and gain power by trying to shove a co2 tax down peoples throats and a lot of ppl are wisening up and saying.. hey.. Al Gore you're just doing that cause you're going to make a lot of money from all that carbon credit distribution, and your banker friends just found a neat way to tax the entire population with the excuse of it being for the sake of the planet.
Now why am i saying global warming along with one child policies, because these policies are interconnected and one child policies are being tied into the global warming farce with the pretense of "saving the planet by lowering your carbon footprint", aswell as the overpopulation non issue..
right now there are over 30 THOUSAND scientists saying manmade global warming is a farce.. source because they have their basis in field research and less in scientific models which are inherently flawed and created by someone who hardly get out of their office, and are based far less on the rubbish and fear mongering of doomsday al gore who even purports to have invented the internet.. and has been caught faking temperature from the boyees to have it look like the temperature is increasing more than it is. Give me a break, the guy is a pathological liar who's in it for the money. and all their data points to manmade global warming being a non event.
now i understand they got a lot of the politicians fooled into setting up some form of scientific tyrrany of this sort where they tell them.. "oh yeah we're in trouble, we need to kill most of the ppl and then give us control then we'll manage the ressources centrally and decide who breeds and who don't etc." and that's where the informed citizens come in to help ppl get a clue instead of being swayed by a few madmen with their own zealous eco religion based on presuppositions rather than facts, and fearmongering rather than realism.
Isn't it convenient that just as the world is allmost going to facism in particular in the US and The Great Britain for no good reason whatsoever really, that all of a sudden we have this "global financial crisis" fear mongering, and "swine flu" fear mongering along with a call for one child policies and depopulation plans in the name of saving the planet from manmade global warming that over 30 thousand scientists are allready saying is a non event and that they were misrepresented in the previous studies? it paints an eery picture about where some want us to be heading.
And they've for decades been destroying industry and crushing any chance of 3rd world countries to have proper technology to manage their own ressources properly, and then blaming them for having a lot of children so they can actually get enough buckets of water from the water pool not to thirst to death.
And first it was a global cooling trim.. oh noes we're all going to freeze, then in these days it's a global warming trim oh noes we're all going to fry.. give me a break, look at the data.. and then get smart. So we can get it right, instead of keeping getting it wrong.
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Enakaru
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:44:00 -
[43]
The TL;DR version of the petition signed by over 30 thousand scientists that claim global warming is a hoax says:
"There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other green house gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the earths climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that INCREASES in atmospheric carbon dioxide produces many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth."
Ok? You get it now?
And as for lack of ressources it has a little bit more to do with economic reasons, lack of infrastructure and distribution methods, aswell as some ppl using water to clean their buttocks whilst others thirst to death.
And those who use the water to clean their buttocks or gas to fuel their cars are less concerned with seeking more sustainable methods of propulsion than those who are suffering, and those that are the controllers of the energy ressources are more concerned with monopoly and a continuous steam of money than actual technological progress.
And taxing the entire world on false pretenses won't help solve these problems it will make them worse because innoventions in any field is reliant upon a steady society with healthy smart and well educated human beings in order to produce them and to finance the research into such.
Because you might be the man or woman who could invent a device that would discover a new method of propulsion that was non pollutive and limitless through either using regenerative ressources or even limitless ressources such as electromagnetics.. but if you're uneducated and starving in some random desert cause some bankers screwed your country over for their own benefits, then you aren't going to invent anything of the sort.
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Iasius
Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:49:00 -
[44]
China is coming up to an age problem because of its 1 child policy. There will be far more old people that need looking after than young people that work to fund the old.
The population of Japan is falling due to low birth rate and almost no immigration. If the current trend continues there will be no inhabitants by something like the year 3200.
The main reason behind UK's immigration is simply economics. Bring in working age people for a ready pool of labour thats keeps wage inflation down. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. ~Saint |
Tallaran Kouros
Caldari Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.08.03 16:25:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Enakaru
show me the evidence of manmade global warming on mars saturn and jupiter.. and i might start to take you seriously[/quote[
He can't, because they lack an appropriate atmosphere.
However, he COULD show you an example of what man-made global warming MIGHT look like on Venus - it's long been believed that Venus once had an atmosphere that was Earth-like, but was destroyed naturally in a run away greenhouse effect.
There is plenty literature online about this if you want to look.
Quote: Isn't it convenient that just as the world is allmost going to facism in particular in the US and The Great Britain for no good reason whatsoever really, that all of a sudden we have this "global financial crisis" fear mongering, and "swine flu" fear mongering
Would you like me to pass you your tin-foil hat?
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Enakaru
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Posted - 2009.08.03 16:37:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Enakaru on 03/08/2009 16:38:54
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros
Originally by: Enakaru
show me the evidence of manmade global warming on mars saturn and jupiter.. and i might start to take you seriously
He can't, because they lack an appropriate atmosphere.
However, he COULD show you an example of what man-made global warming MIGHT look like on Venus - it's long been believed that Venus once had an atmosphere that was Earth-like, but was destroyed naturally in a run away greenhouse effect.
There is plenty literature online about this if you want to look.
I think you will find that what i was alluding to was this:
The polar icecaps of Mars are receding at several miles a year, much faster than ours and that the moons of Saturn and Jupiter are melting, in fact several of their moons were ice and are now liquid seas - how are SUV's causing that? Jupiter and Saturn are not closer to the sun than Earth and neither is Mars.
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goodby4u
Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2009.08.03 16:49:00 -
[47]
First off, I was never in Britain before, so if I get something about your laws incorrect I am sorry, but I feel I should put my two cents in...
First off, this law is a breech of everything that is personal privacy, I hold the belief that a person should be able to do anything he darn well pleases in his own home unless it hurts other people, and he should definitely be able to do it in private, the main reason being is because britain is going down the 1984 road because of terrorists and soon big brother might be taking tabs on his political enemies, not to mention sexual behavior.
Chavs, they are if I understand correctly packs of kids that think it will be a good idea to break things and hurt people. Education is part of it, making a kid mentally believe it is useless to do such behavior is a good deterrent but will not help with all. One of the main problems with chavs is if you fight back you are seen as a bully and could be arrested for such actions because of child abuse laws, here lies the problem.
One should be able to issue that whooping the chav needed to get from his/her mother a couple years back, with all of britain's cameras it would be a simple matter of determining self defense.
The people, America ain't perfect, and we are going down this road just the same... But why are people in britain still voting these people in? Further more, why aren't you guys doing something about it?
Again, just the opinion of somebody that lives thousands of miles away across an ocean, if any of this was horribly off I am sorry.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:49:00 -
[48]
Guess you guys are Balls deep here....
They really got the Balls to pull this off.....
I'll get me coat.
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Taua Roqa
Minmatar junQtion
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:51:00 -
[49]
you know all the **** spam lately that's actually the footage they are taking of me
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Munchees
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.03 20:42:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Taua Roqa you know all the **** spam lately that's actually the footage they are taking of me
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fapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfap
I'm trying to derail the thread. --------------------------------------------------
Originally by: Mr Reeth
Why is it every time I read somebody call all Americans stupid I hear it in a British accent an |
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rValdez5987
Amarr Imperial Guard. Soldiers of Solitude
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:24:00 -
[51]
reading through replies in this thread makes me sad.
No one tries to compromise or take the middle ground, and everyone thinks they know best.
I can tell none of you are policymakers. |
Munchees
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:26:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Munchees on 03/08/2009 21:27:20
Originally by: rValdez5987 reading through replies in this thread makes me sad.
No one tries to compromise or take the middle ground, and everyone thinks they know best.
I can tell none of you are policymakers.
There is no middle ground where I cone. It's either you stick to your guns or YOU DIE!!!
Anyway this might be a good idea now that I think about it. We might be able to see people doing stupid things if they are posted to Youtube. I'm trying to derail the thread. --------------------------------------------------
Originally by: Mr Reeth
Why is it every time I read somebody call all Americans stupid I hear it in a British accent an |
goodby4u
Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:48:00 -
[53]
Originally by: rValdez5987 reading through replies in this thread makes me sad.
No one tries to compromise or take the middle ground, and everyone thinks they know best.
I can tell none of you are policymakers.
If you are referring to my reply then there is a reason I don't wish to take middle ground...
It is because I believe the government has no right to spy on it's citizens in their own homes, and to give up such a right as a little privacy is another step in the direction of a 1984 like big brother.
There is an old saying, if you give essential liberties for temporary security you will receive neither.
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Iasius
Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:57:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Iasius on 03/08/2009 21:59:41 Good Benjamin Franklin quotes:-
Mankind naturally and generally love to be flatter'd: Whatever sooths our Pride, and tends to exalt our Species above the rest of the Creation, we are pleas'd with and easily believe, when ungrateful Truths shall be with the utmost Indignation rejected. "What! bring ourselves down to an Equality with the Beasts of the Field! with the meanest part of the Creation! 'Tis insufferable!" But, (to use a Piece of common Sense) our Geese are but Geese tho' we may think 'em Swans; and Truth will be Truth tho' it sometimes prove mortifying and distasteful.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Idleness and pride tax with a heavier hand than kings and parliaments.
Our new Constitution is now established, and has an appearance that promises permanency; but in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.
Human felicity is produced not so much by great pieces of good fortune that seldom happen, as by little advantages that occur every day.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. ~Saint |
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