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Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.03 23:04:00 - [1] ★★★ EVE Central Reserve ★★★ Hello folks. The title should give you a good indication of what this thread is going to be about. I've been mulling over what to write in this thread for a while now, and for once I'm going to keep it short. There's a new bank in town. Well, a bank, virtual stock exchange, IPO and Bond management service, information center and service provider. But I'm trying to keep things short. ★★★ Another bank? What the ... ★★★ A lot of questions should come up immediately. Who's running the bank? What's it going to do? How will it work? What about security? Etc, etc. Instead of making very long posts here in order to answer all of the standard questions, I'm just going to point everyone to some very long posts that I already made on our website: http://www.evecr.com/. Several pages in the 'About Us' section detail a lot of the information interest people will be looking for, and you don't even have to sign up to access those pages. Additionally, I'm pleased to announce that the bank will be entering a closed beta test tonight, with invites being sent out shortly after this post to around 30 people. We will then move to an open beta within a couple of weeks, and allow everyone to muck around for a week or so while we finish our setup and go live. Please refrain from making accounts on the site (forums are free reign: http://forum.evecr.com/) if you are not currently in the closed beta, as they will either not work or will be deactivated for the duration of the closed beta. ★★★ We Like Pretty Section Headers ★★★ Everyone is welcome to join the forums (http://forum.evecr.com/), discuss and give us feedback and critical questions there, and also join us in the in-game channel 'EVECR'. Finally, this thread is for questions, speculation, and discussion concerning this new service, so please, go ahead once you've taken the time to read all of the material publicly available on http://www.evecr.com/. The entire ECR Board of Directors looks forward to working with our future customers and getting some solid feedback on a project that has come a long way in the month or so since we began.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.03 23:05:00 - [2] Edited by: Selene D''Celeste on 03/08/2009 23:17:04 A quick addendum. Many numbers are up for some discussion (rates, fees, etc), as well as the direction that various features will be taken in. While this isn't a publicly-owned bank, there is a focus on transparency and cooperation, so feedback from everyone is going to be pretty crucial.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.03 23:07:00 - [3] Reserved.
ECR Tomw	Posted - 2009.08.03 23:08:00 - [4] Signed, I am one of the ECR Directors Will be posting with my main in just a sec to confirm ownership and involvment in this venture.
tomw Caldari Reikoku	Posted - 2009.08.03 23:09:00 - [5] Edited by: tomw on 03/08/2009 23:09:40 My Main Has Posted. As follow up most people will know me as Manager of EOHPOKER. I do the day to day operations there as i will be doing with the bank. I am also one of the 2 coders on the bank project. So i wait the Comments. _______________________________________________ /me runs through forums naked with pics of david hasselhoff stapled to his nipples. thats normal right?
ECR Niraia	Posted - 2009.08.03 23:17:00 - [6] Hi everyone! I'm Niraia's alt, confirming in a sec.
Niraia Gallente Clown Punchers Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.03 23:18:00 - [7] Confirmed. I'm not sure if anyone around here knows me at all, so hi! I've been working with Selene and Tomw for EOH Poker for a year or so. I'm one of the coders for this project. In my spare time, I like to make people's ships explode. Looking forward to hearing your feedback :)
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.08.03 23:26:00 - [8] Looking good so far, I'm especially interested in ECR's business service and will be the first in line to take advantage of your Information Standardization service. I was just curious if ECR will be charging a fee for those services.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.03 23:30:00 - [9] Edited by: Selene D''Celeste on 03/08/2009 23:30:08 Originally by: Brock Nelson Looking good so far, I'm especially interested in ECR's business service and will be the first in line to take advantage of your Information Standardization service. I was just curious if ECR will be charging a fee for those services. A lot of the information services will probably be free to browse, yes. Discussion on exactly what fees are used for business-side services such as listing on the exchange are currently up for discussion, as a decent balance has to be struck. There are some big future plans for what you mentioned in your post .... but those are some expansions out, so probably not the thing to focus on this minute =) Don't worry, lots of discussion time is planned for all future features as well.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.08.03 23:37:00 - [10] I wouldn't mind paying a fee to use some of those services or even just to view reports. It'll be one way to reduce the demand to generate interest payment.
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics	Posted - 2009.08.04 00:38:00 - [11] I'm really enthused to see a new bank finally emerging! I had hoped something like that was in the works, MD just felt a little too quiet. I look forward to trying all of the services this bank has to provide!
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.04 00:40:00 - [12] "Searchable IPO and Bond Database. All bonds and IPOs listed on the ECR stock market are searchable even after closing or being defaulted. The complete history of transactions, feedback, reports, and other information is available to all ECR users as an informational service to the EVE business community. Eventually ECR hopes to undertake side projects to examine the efforts of EVE players who have compiled old IPO and Bond information, and inforporate that data into our system." Someone with enough time to make my dream a reality
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.04 00:54:00 - [13] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria "Searchable IPO and Bond Database. All bonds and IPOs listed on the ECR stock market are searchable even after closing or being defaulted. The complete history of transactions, feedback, reports, and other information is available to all ECR users as an informational service to the EVE business community. Eventually ECR hopes to undertake side projects to examine the efforts of EVE players who have compiled old IPO and Bond information, and inforporate that data into our system." Someone with enough time to make my dream a reality We've not actually spoken to anyone who's compiled these lists yet, but it's on the big to-do list. Figured we'd get all the basics up and running and in use first =P But yeah, it needs to happen, and it seems useful to merge it into an actual virtual exchange. I am sure if someone else already has or does set up a fancy deal elsewhere, we could talk integration and validation. Who knows. =D
Roquezir Minmatar One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.08.04 01:22:00 - [14] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria "Searchable IPO and Bond Database. All bonds and IPOs listed on the ECR stock market are searchable even after closing or being defaulted. The complete history of transactions, feedback, reports, and other information is available to all ECR users as an informational service to the EVE business community. Eventually ECR hopes to undertake side projects to examine the efforts of EVE players who have compiled old IPO and Bond information, and inforporate that data into our system." Someone with enough time to make my dream a reality Nothing new here, folks. EVE-Trade already has this feature as of beta.
eVaLF Delivery Luck	Posted - 2009.08.04 01:31:00 - [15] Looks good, waiting to see how the reporting is, and playing with the stock market some. ----- POS FUEL DELIVERY & HIGH & LOW SEC FREIGHTER SERVICES
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.04 01:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Roquezir Nothing new here, folks. EVE-Trade already has this feature as of beta. Just to get this out of the way immediately without resorting to trolling: We had talks with EVE Trade a little over a week ago about integrating the their service with ours as our stock exchange didn't exist a week ago. I was hopeful that our coders could save some work by hooking up to their service. After the coders looked at what was there, we had a long discussion. Basically, since we wanted the stock market to have the same interface as ECR -- that is, be part of the ECR site -- and systems such as accounts and loans were already done, there was practically no new code in EVE Trade's current code (as of a week ago). So, there was absolutely no point in integrating the two, as it would have been more work to integrate, and would have been less secure for us having important database resources hosted somewhere else by someone else. Unfortunately, this decision meant that those integration talks didn't end on the best of terms. I won't get into functionality comparisons. There's no point in arguing or trolling. ECR's stock market is going to run differently than EVE Trade's, though I don't know for sure how much overlaps. Either way, if there is competition, go for it. Everyone else can decide as they wish once both services are launched and functioning =)
glas mir Reaction Scientific	Posted - 2009.08.04 01:42:00 - [17] what is the niche? Can we get an executive summary posted here?
Roquezir Minmatar One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.08.04 02:40:00 - [18] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Originally by: Roquezir Nothing new here, folks. EVE-Trade already has this feature as of beta. Just to get this out of the way immediately without resorting to trolling No trolling here. Just a simple businessman pointing out an alternative service, as it were, that, in full disclosure, LadyOfWrath and I have assembled. Quote: Everyone else can decide as they wish once both services are launched and functioning =) Indeed, it's a free market. An informed public is better equipped to make effective decisions, hence my point.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.08.04 03:29:00 - [19] Edited by: SencneS on 04/08/2009 03:32:59 Nice to see EBANKs plans and development placed in another Banks hands LOL Sorry for the small troll, but I can't help but notice a rather large list of things that are already in place or on the table for implementation at EBANK. Not that its a bad thing. Like I have said many times over EBANK is a testament to the fact that there is too much ISK in EVE, and that EVE needs more Banks. I noticed this line here - Bank-Level Deposit Cap: The ability to set a cap on how much ISK can be in interest-bearing savings and CoD accounts, per account type and for the bank as a whole. Care to elaborate on this? The way it reads is you set a limit to say 10b in CoDs and it's whomever gets that 10b in first wins? Because I see this - 12-Month CoD (3.0%): Unlimited This is the same as the 3-month term-limit CoD except it has a 12-month term-limit and pays more interest. And think people would simple invest in the 12-month CoD to fill up the Bank's level and prevent the bank from actually being able to be used for anything else?. Or am I reading this wrong? I assume you're starting small as the Savings account is 1B limit, I assume you're gambling on the fact people will choose 12month Bond for 3% and not worry about anything else. Edit:- Spelling error, could have been confusing. Amarr for Life
Kaladr Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.08.04 04:12:00 - [20] For the record, EVE Central Reserve has absolutely no relation to EVE-Central.com (despite starting with the same first two words). ---- EVE-Central.com - Your EVE economic and corporate site, featuring the inter-region market browser
Sharpclaw Caldari Precision Collision ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.04 05:16:00 - [21] Someone has been busy. Nice, clean site.
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2009.08.04 05:23:00 - [22] Good luck with the bank. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Roric Skogan	Posted - 2009.08.04 05:57:00 - [23] Sorry I am late, I too am on the Director team.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.04 06:58:00 - [24] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 04/08/2009 07:01:52 Commendable idea. Now, a public statement about the following would be welcome: - Available POS structures for the lockdown BPO collaterals. - Due to the current month, liquidity issues may be expected off the possible clients and thus it's possible your institution will be contacted for loans. How large is your self provided capital to front the startup time in case of many loan requests? - Institution facilities if any? - Is the loan rate of interest compatible with 110% collateral? - Is the account rate of interest compatible and appetible, with being a new institution? Basically a corporate prospectus and strategy beyond the welcome message. Edit: I am also interested in details about "Auditor Reports: Basic access to raw API data and some admin controls (view-only) for external auditors." - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.04 07:07:00 - [25] Nice to see some movement in the banking sector. However, I am not too happy with you calling yourself a "central bank", as you do neither have any influence on monetary policy in EVE nor do you have the ressources to act as a lender of last resort - you are just one bank amongst many others. You are arguing that you are as close to a central bank as it is possible in EVE as you focus on setting standards for the financial market (which is (a) not the task of RL central banks but of separate entities concerned with regulation and (b) not enforceable in any way other than posting in MD) and as you have designed your bank with security in mind (however, there is no thing such as "secure" long-term government bonds to back-up loans in EVE, even the market values of hard assets used as collateral can deviate wildly -> e.g. faction ships during the recent weeks). IMHO this mislabeling could create a false sense of security among possible customers. now the interesting parts from the website: Originally by: ECR A unique feature of our interest-bearing accounts is that interest is paid out to sweep, and not back into the account itself. so the effective rate of interest you are paying is lower than that paid by EBANK - nothing wrong with this per se, just wanted to point it out. Originally by: ECR Loan Headhunting is a method for increasing ECR's loan business, thus allowing more deposits to be accepted into interest-bearing accounts. Headhunters are simply EVE players who find and refer loans to ECR -- anyone can become a headhunter. Loan headhunters do not get paid for the first loan they refer (to prevent self-referral-via-alt loan-rate decrease attempts), but will receive a cut of all interest earned by all following loans they prefer. This means that if a loan headhunter recommended five loans to ECR, the first would not benefit them. However, if two of the following four loans were accepted and active, then that headhunter would receive a cut of the interest from those two loans for every day that those loans are active. As long as you are only accepting 110% collateral (with low volatility in market prices), this sounds fine. But you should be aware of the risks of moral hazard you are introducing with this method (you cannot really hold the headhunter accountable for "his" loans defaulting and even if no interest is ever paid on the loans, the headhunter would still get two months worth of comission). A third point: I didn't find any mention of the minimum percentage of deposits you will hold in liquidity to handle withdrawals (and prevent bank-runs) on your website - but maybe I haven't looked hard enough. " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
Ambo I've Got Nothing	Posted - 2009.08.04 07:35:00 - [26] Looks nice. Unfortunatley, the returns are just way too low to justify the risk imo. 3% for the 'about-as-safe-as-you-can-get' ebank is the lowest I really consider worthwhile. With this, I can only get 3% if I leave isk there for 12 months and that won't even be compounded. Otherwise, it's just 1.5%. So if I put 10 billion at risk for a month then I'll earn around 150 mil. Not even enough to cover GTC. The fact that I can only put 1 billion in makes it even more pointless. I'm sure you'll find many who will be happy to throw their isk at you though. Good luck with it. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Drexciyian The Water Margin	Posted - 2009.08.04 10:16:00 - [27] Edited by: Drexciyian on 04/08/2009 10:16:42 Originally by: Ambo Looks nice. Unfortunatley, the returns are just way too low to justify the risk imo. 3% for the 'about-as-safe-as-you-can-get' ebank is the lowest I really consider worthwhile. With this, I can only get 3% if I leave isk there for 12 months and that won't even be compounded. Otherwise, it's just 1.5%. So if I put 10 billion at risk for a month then I'll earn around 150 mil. Not even enough to cover GTC. The fact that I can only put 1 billion in makes it even more pointless. I'm sure you'll find many who will be happy to throw their isk at you though. Good luck with it. I pointed this out before and got told they do it because they can due to theres alot of stupid people with alot of money out there ps Hi Ho
eVaLF Delivery Luck	Posted - 2009.08.04 10:54:00 - [28] Originally by: Roquezir Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Originally by: Roquezir Nothing new here, folks. EVE-Trade already has this feature as of beta. Just to get this out of the way immediately without resorting to trolling No trolling here. Just a simple businessman pointing out an alternative service, as it were, that, in full disclosure, LadyOfWrath and I have assembled. Quote: Everyone else can decide as they wish once both services are launched and functioning =) Indeed, it's a free market. An informed public is better equipped to make effective decisions, hence my point. The difference is they are not in your thread advertising another service, no offense but makes you look desperate. Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 04/08/2009 03:32:59 Nice to see EBANKs plans and development placed in another Banks hands LOL Sorry for the small troll, but I can't help but notice a rather large list of things that are already in place or on the table for implementation at EBANK. Not that its a bad thing. Like I have said many times over EBANK is a testament to the fact that there is too much ISK in EVE, and that EVE needs more Banks. I noticed this line here - Bank-Level Deposit Cap: The ability to set a cap on how much ISK can be in interest-bearing savings and CoD accounts, per account type and for the bank as a whole. Care to elaborate on this? The way it reads is you set a limit to say 10b in CoDs and it's whomever gets that 10b in first wins? Because I see this - 12-Month CoD (3.0%): Unlimited This is the same as the 3-month term-limit CoD except it has a 12-month term-limit and pays more interest. And think people would simple invest in the 12-month CoD to fill up the Bank's level and prevent the bank from actually being able to be used for anything else?. Or am I reading this wrong? I assume you're starting small as the Savings account is 1B limit, I assume you're gambling on the fact people will choose 12month Bond for 3% and not worry about anything else. Edit:- Spelling error, could have been confusing. Per the first part :) EBANK has had those plans for how long now and we have yet to see them, over a year now, maybe even going on 2 years. Can't blame another bank for doing it before you. ----- POS FUEL DELIVERY & HIGH & LOW SEC FREIGHTER SERVICES
ECR Tomw	Posted - 2009.08.04 11:21:00 - [29] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 04/08/2009 07:01:52 Now, a public statement about the following would be welcome: - Available POS structures for the lockdown BPO collaterals. - Due to the current month, liquidity issues may be expected off the possible clients and thus it's possible your institution will be contacted for loans. How large is your self provided capital to front the startup time in case of many loan requests? - Institution facilities if any? - Is the loan rate of interest compatible with 110% collateral? - Is the account rate of interest compatible and appetible, with being a new institution? Basically a corporate prospectus and strategy beyond the welcome message. " 1. Yes POS's will be avaliable for locked down bpo holders. Standings are in place just waiting for the need to have one up. 2. The Starting Capital the directors have put into the bank is quite large. I am not at liberty to say how much but Selene may poke in and say. 3. No clue what this means? 4. Loan intrest rates are computed based on a number of factors and we feel they are the lowest in the market and have the most room for give and take. 5. Our Starting intrest rates on accounts was designed to allow us the ability to function even if we where bringing in 0 Loan intrest.
ECR Tomw	Posted - 2009.08.04 11:30:00 - [30] Originally by: Ambo Looks nice. Unfortunatley, the returns are just way too low to justify the risk imo. 3% for the 'about-as-safe-as-you-can-get' ebank is the lowest I really consider worthwhile. With this, I can only get 3% if I leave isk there for 12 months and that won't even be compounded. Otherwise, it's just 1.5%. So if I put 10 billion at risk for a month then I'll earn around 150 mil. Not even enough to cover GTC. The fact that I can only put 1 billion in makes it even more pointless. I'm sure you'll find many who will be happy to throw their isk at you though. Good luck with it. I am not sure where your getting your information but our basic savings account is the excat same intrest rate as EBANK's Checking account 1.5%. We then go on to offer even higher if your willing to leave the isk with us for longer periods of time up to 3.0%. You have no option of that with ebank. If your one of the lucky ones with a 3% savings account with the 3b cap thats good for you as not many people have them out 3% Account has no cap but does have a withdrawl limitation. But since all your intrest is paid directly into your sweep account you have instant access to your profits. So if you really compare us for the general population we do pay higher intrest rates on our accounts.
ECR Tomw	Posted - 2009.08.04 11:31:00 - [31] Originally by: Drexciyian Edited by: Drexciyian on 04/08/2009 10:16:42 Originally by: Ambo Looks nice. Unfortunatley, the returns are just way too low to justify the risk imo. 3% for the 'about-as-safe-as-you-can-get' ebank is the lowest I really consider worthwhile. With this, I can only get 3% if I leave isk there for 12 months and that won't even be compounded. Otherwise, it's just 1.5%. So if I put 10 billion at risk for a month then I'll earn around 150 mil. Not even enough to cover GTC. The fact that I can only put 1 billion in makes it even more pointless. I'm sure you'll find many who will be happy to throw their isk at you though. Good luck with it. I pointed this out before and got told they do it because they can due to theres alot of stupid people with alot of money out there ps Hi Ho And who from EVCR told you that? We are not here to prey on people we are here to provide people with isk, another isk steam.
ECR Tomw	Posted - 2009.08.04 11:35:00 - [32] Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 04/08/2009 03:32:59 Nice to see EBANKs plans and development placed in another Banks hands LOL Sorry for the small troll, but I can't help but notice a rather large list of things that are already in place or on the table for implementation at EBANK. Not that its a bad thing. Like I have said many times over EBANK is a testament to the fact that there is too much ISK in EVE, and that EVE needs more Banks. I noticed this line here - Bank-Level Deposit Cap: The ability to set a cap on how much ISK can be in interest-bearing savings and CoD accounts, per account type and for the bank as a whole. Care to elaborate on this? The way it reads is you set a limit to say 10b in CoDs and it's whomever gets that 10b in first wins? Because I see this - 12-Month CoD (3.0%): Unlimited This is the same as the 3-month term-limit CoD except it has a 12-month term-limit and pays more interest. And think people would simple invest in the 12-month CoD to fill up the Bank's level and prevent the bank from actually being able to be used for anything else?. Or am I reading this wrong? I assume you're starting small as the Savings account is 1B limit, I assume you're gambling on the fact people will choose 12month Bond for 3% and not worry about anything else. Edit:- Spelling error, could have been confusing. Bank Level Deposit Cap This is our way of controling how much intrest is paying out. Currently the Cap is set at 500b isk. It is an internal control to prevent us from having more intrest bearing isk than we have income to cover it. We have weekly reviews planned for our cap and it should never be bit where it would hinder a users ability to get money into a intrest bearing account of there choice.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.08.04 11:49:00 - [33] Promising. I'm a fan of being agile about things. So pushing out this many services all at once is, to me, worrying. It's nice to see Grendell onboard. I think with him being very visible in the general community through his give-aways and the like is very nice. I wish you good luck.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.04 12:49:00 - [34] Edited by: Selene D''Celeste on 04/08/2009 12:50:07 Originally by: LaVista Vista Promising. I'm a fan of being agile about things. So pushing out this many services all at once is, to me, worrying. It's nice to see Grendell onboard. I think with him being very visible in the general community through his give-aways and the like is very nice. I wish you good luck. Thanks LVV. And yeah I had a nice post in reply and then EVE-O ate it, and now I have to go. Later I guess =(
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.08.04 14:51:00 - [35] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Thanks LVV. And yeah I had a nice post in reply and then EVE-O ate it, and now I have to go. Later I guess =( Hurray for the iPhone. Even it has copy and paste for when EVE-O om nom's your posts
Lecherito	Posted - 2009.08.04 17:09:00 - [36] Edited by: Lecherito on 04/08/2009 17:13:27 Am I the only one who thinks that 1.5% is more than quite a bit low for a new bank, especially considering the incredibly low amount allowed in the savings account? -L Just read the bottom of page 1, apparently I'm not the only one
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.08.04 17:27:00 - [37] Originally by: Lecherito Edited by: Lecherito on 04/08/2009 17:13:27 Am I the only one who thinks that 1.5% is more than quite a bit low for a new bank, especially considering the incredibly low amount allowed in the savings account? -L Just read the bottom of page 1, apparently I'm not the only one I disagree. Did you read the about page? This is clearly not a commercial bank in the same sense that ebank is(e ven if I think it's more the same than they make it out to be, just with more different services) And let's face it. There is plenty of room for competition in the bank market atm. Even at low rates due to dbank and ebanks recent drama. Also the fact that it's fairly trustworthy and wellknown people who's running if justifies if even better
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.08.04 17:31:00 - [38] Originally by: eVaLF Per the first part :) EBANK has had those plans for how long now and we have yet to see them, over a year now, maybe even going on 2 years. Can't blame another bank for doing it before you. I wasn't saying it's a bad thing, just a carbon copy. Actually if Mr.H ever actually completed his side it would have been done a long time ago. Apart from a few bugs here and there, if I was in charge I would have released the Exchange a LONG time ago, like over 12 months ago. It has seen zero development since until recently. None the less, there is nothing wrong with a second bank offering up the same services as the first. Like I have wished in the past for Banks, welcome to the party, please stay awhile :) ECT - Good to see you're starting so small. So the 500B is a bank level cap, I assume this includes all saves, CoDs etc. Is there a 12month Bond cap as well? Because as Selene can tell you, 500b at 3% is a big nut to swallow. Assuming it's non-compounding that's almost 500mil a day every day. I'm more concerned about running yourself into the ground bigger is not really better. I'm a strong believer in More Banks. So please don't consider this a troll in any way. Amarr for Life
ECR Tomw	Posted - 2009.08.04 17:58:00 - [39] Originally by: SencneS Originally by: eVaLF Per the first part :) EBANK has had those plans for how long now and we have yet to see them, over a year now, maybe even going on 2 years. Can't blame another bank for doing it before you. I wasn't saying it's a bad thing, just a carbon copy. Actually if Mr.H ever actually completed his side it would have been done a long time ago. Apart from a few bugs here and there, if I was in charge I would have released the Exchange a LONG time ago, like over 12 months ago. It has seen zero development since until recently. None the less, there is nothing wrong with a second bank offering up the same services as the first. Like I have wished in the past for Banks, welcome to the party, please stay awhile :) ECT - Good to see you're starting so small. So the 500B is a bank level cap, I assume this includes all saves, CoDs etc. Is there a 12month Bond cap as well? Because as Selene can tell you, 500b at 3% is a big nut to swallow. Assuming it's non-compounding that's almost 500mil a day every day. I'm more concerned about running yourself into the ground bigger is not really better. I'm a strong believer in More Banks. So please don't consider this a troll in any way. I dont count you as a troll, We welcome all the feed back from everyone. The 12 month bond is truly cap free with regards to the end user. But it still must fall under the bank cap . Any account that is paid intrest will stay under the cap as a sum of all ammounts in all the accounts. . Is it meor does the stupid text box when full allways flip around while your typing... Stupid forums
Ambo I've Got Nothing	Posted - 2009.08.04 17:59:00 - [40] Originally by: ECR Tomw Originally by: Ambo Looks nice. Unfortunatley, the returns are just way too low to justify the risk imo. 3% for the 'about-as-safe-as-you-can-get' ebank is the lowest I really consider worthwhile. With this, I can only get 3% if I leave isk there for 12 months and that won't even be compounded. Otherwise, it's just 1.5%. So if I put 10 billion at risk for a month then I'll earn around 150 mil. Not even enough to cover GTC. The fact that I can only put 1 billion in makes it even more pointless. I'm sure you'll find many who will be happy to throw their isk at you though. Good luck with it. I am not sure where your getting your information but our basic savings account is the excat same intrest rate as EBANK's Checking account 1.5%. We then go on to offer even higher if your willing to leave the isk with us for longer periods of time up to 3.0%. You have no option of that with ebank. If your one of the lucky ones with a 3% savings account with the 3b cap thats good for you as not many people have them out 3% Account has no cap but does have a withdrawl limitation. But since all your intrest is paid directly into your sweep account you have instant access to your profits. So if you really compare us for the general population we do pay higher intrest rates on our accounts. I am indeed one of those with access to a 3% savings account. If it helps, I have exactly the same opinion of ebank's 1.5% account. It's simply not worth it. Even 3% is pushing it in my eyes. I'm not really interested in you being better or worse than anything else out there. Simply stating that for me, I can't see enough return to entrust you guys with my isk. As I say though, I'm sure you'll find plenty who are willing to do so. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
ECR Tomw	Posted - 2009.08.04 18:00:00 - [41] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Lecherito Edited by: Lecherito on 04/08/2009 17:13:27 Am I the only one who thinks that 1.5% is more than quite a bit low for a new bank, especially considering the incredibly low amount allowed in the savings account? -L Just read the bottom of page 1, apparently I'm not the only one I disagree. Did you read the about page? This is clearly not a commercial bank in the same sense that ebank is(e ven if I think it's more the same than they make it out to be, just with more different services) And let's face it. There is plenty of room for competition in the bank market atm. Even at low rates due to dbank and ebanks recent drama. Also the fact that it's fairly trustworthy and wellknown people who's running if justifies if even better Your right in that sense we are very much a bank at heart, With just alot of things that banks dont currently offer and a allot of new funcaility coming soon that no other banks are offering.
ECR Tomw	Posted - 2009.08.04 18:05:00 - [42] To : Ambo Well it comes down to income vr's outlay. While still in the young building phase conservation is key. While we are ready and finacily able to take on large sum's of isk we wanted to ensure our stability and continued Growth. With that said thought we do offer the 12 month cd with unlimited deposit ability. While this is about 1-2% less then a MD forum Bond now days it seems its a secure investment with no risk to your isk. (Well Almost). We Felt having the CD's Pay high intrest would help to ensure allways being solvent and preventing huge spikes and drops in cash flow while at the same time paying customer what there isk is worth. If you feel the rates are 2 low what would you say they should be at?
Carrie Mehome Misfitz Brigade	Posted - 2009.08.04 19:02:00 - [43] A couple of questions about this. 1. Are you still a member of the Eve Bank's board? 2. How many of these ideas where or still are on Eve Bank's drawing bored? 3. Did you originally think of these ideas or did you appropriate these from Eve Bank? 4. If you did appropriate these ideas, did you do it with Eve Bank's consent? 5. Will you still run you Casino after the bank is open?
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.08.04 19:17:00 - [44] Originally by: Carrie Mehome A couple of questions about this. 1. Are you still a member of the Eve Bank's board? 2. How many of these ideas where or still are on Eve Bank's drawing bored? 3. Did you originally think of these ideas or did you appropriate these from Eve Bank? 4. If you did appropriate these ideas, did you do it with Eve Bank's consent? I think that your questions are irrelevant. No, Selene left EBANK months ago. However, while most of the things that ECR is going to do was either done by EBANK, or under progress, it doesn't matter. What EBANK has done isn't rocket science, and most services have been seen in other shapes and forms. Selene doesn't need consent to do something that wasn't exactly invented by EBANK. And Selene left of good terms with EBANK. So he's a good friend of EBANK, as far as I'm aware. I'd be happy to share my advice with Selene at very least.
ECR Tomw	Posted - 2009.08.04 19:22:00 - [45] Originally by: Carrie Mehome A couple of questions about this. 1. Are you still a member of the Eve Bank's board? 2. How many of these ideas where or still are on Eve Bank's drawing bored? 3. Did you originally think of these ideas or did you appropriate these from Eve Bank? 4. If you did appropriate these ideas, did you do it with Eve Bank's consent? 5. Will you still run you Casino after the bank is open? 1. No Selene Left a while ago on good terms 2. At least half that i know off. But i know some of the things on our list to do are not. 3. Alot of our Ideas came form what we think a bank should have. So while not directly appropriated i am sure a few of them came from his knowldge of ebank. 4. Ideas are just that ide's and its a free market... 5. Oh yes EOH Poker is very much alive and well and is not going anywhere.
ECR Tomw	Posted - 2009.08.04 19:25:00 - [46] Comment Correction. Our Launch Cap will be 200b not 500b. Our current Cap for beta is 20b. Just wanted to ensure everyone knows the real numbers. Thanks...
Daeva Vios New Eden Credit Bureau	Posted - 2009.08.04 19:33:00 - [47] Originally by: Carrie Mehome A couple of questions about this. 1. Are you still a member of the Eve Bank's board? 2. How many of these ideas where or still are on Eve Bank's drawing bored? 3. Did you originally think of these ideas or did you appropriate these from Eve Bank? 4. If you did appropriate these ideas, did you do it with Eve Bank's consent? 5. Will you still run you Casino after the bank is open? I don't think EVE has anything resembling a binding Non-Competition clause. ------------------------------------- NECB
Carrie Mehome Misfitz Brigade	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:16:00 - [48] Originally by: Daeva Vios Originally by: Carrie Mehome A couple of questions about this. 1. Are you still a member of the Eve Bank's board? 2. How many of these ideas where or still are on Eve Bank's drawing bored? 3. Did you originally think of these ideas or did you appropriate these from Eve Bank? 4. If you did appropriate these ideas, did you do it with Eve Bank's consent? 5. Will you still run you Casino after the bank is open? I don't think EVE has anything resembling a binding Non-Competition clause. True enough, However. Morals, ethics?
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:19:00 - [49] Originally by: Carrie Mehome True enough, However. Morals, ethics? In the interest of growth, this would be one of those things that really doesn't matter. It would akin to Rome complaining to Constantinople that they too built roads with bricks.
Daeva Vios New Eden Credit Bureau	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:32:00 - [50] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Carrie Mehome True enough, However. Morals, ethics? In the interest of growth, this would be one of those things that really doesn't matter. It would akin to Rome complaining to Constantinople that they too built roads with bricks. This. When the field is this open, these two banks can exist together without any harm coming to either. They can take lessons from each other and advance together. Even if EVE had too many banks, however, the 'morals' and 'ethics' that would come into play would be which bank is better suited to survive amid the competition? Generally this works in favor of the consumer and is in no way a bad thing, except for those who found that they could not compete. ------------------------------------- NECB
Carrie Mehome Misfitz Brigade	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:51:00 - [51] This is probably why I will never get far ahead in eve lol. To me, I look at it as "stealing" an idea. You where trusted, you where apart of something. I have no idea why he left EBANK, nor does it matter I guess. But, he took the ideas others offered but where not acted upon and he is acting upon them. So, maybe not such a bad thing after all. Good luck, Im sure you will be seeing some of my isk :)
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.04 23:13:00 - [52] Looks like some good discussion and thanks for the positive feedback and useful critiques. Get ready for a very long post of replies, but luckily, Tom answered a bunch today. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Basically a corporate prospectus and strategy beyond the welcome message. Tom answered a bunch but let me expand on that. POS setups are yet to be determined, partially based on expected need, as well as the needs of directors moving their operations to the ECR corporation in order to have BoD BPO lockdown. Remember, this is being designed with security in mind and (trying) to take as little as possible for granted. Further ideas on increasing security without completely nerfing money-making ability are always great to hear. The %s on accounts and CDs are probably going to stay, the caps are likely to come up for discussion in the near future. One concern brought up since yesterday is that without a per-account cap, a small group could fill up the reserve to its current limits, not letting anyone else in. So that can be discussed. Overall though, the design of long-term ISK lockdown with a bank-level cap on all basic interest-bearing vehicles (savings, CDs) means that a minimal amount of ISK is needed in reserve to keep liquidity. Additionally, this means the bank should never have much more ISK that it is paying interest on than it has out in loans, thus preventing a situation where the bank is barely breaking even or losing money. Uncontrolled growth is not a good thing. By "Institution facilities" I am not sure what you mean, so a clarification would be useful. There is a good chance that loan rates will have to be tweaked. However, less than 110% collateral on a loan is foolish for several reasons when the goal is actual security and not hoped-for security. By not taking into account fame and reliability of those we lend to, the system is designed to provide modest loan rates for maximum security. Obviously this rate has to stay above the highest offered to customers, and customers need an inventive above the "baseline" of 1.5% in order to keep their ISK locked down. So it is a fine line to walk in order to be profitable. Obviously this loan setup isn't for everyone, and is probably only for a smaller subset of players. In the end though, we think there will be plenty of business, and future opportunities to make different vehicles or services that deal with less secure loans. Also Tom, your spelling is as terrible as always =P Originally by: LaVista Vista pushing out this many services all at once is, to me, worrying. Honestly, there's not a lot being pushed out at once. At launch there will be basic bank functions: accounts, CDs, loans, and we'll make sure they all function as intended. The stock market won't be good to go with all the bells and whistles for a few more weeks afterwards most likely, since we'll want all bits thoroughly tested. If you think this is a lot then looking at the future to-do list would probably make you pass out. Originally by: LaVista Vista It's nice to see Grendell onboard. I think with him being very visible in the general community through his give-aways and the like is very nice. It's good that at least two of the five are known forum *****s, but the focus here is on the implementation and the utility, not the personalities. While both Grendell and I profit in other businesses that are partly or heavily used purely due to reputation, ECR isn't meant to be such a beast. We have had plenty of businesses and banks run on reputation, and fail due to disappearances and other issues. We want this business to stand on its own merit, and have failsafes at every level. No, it can't be perfect, but god damnit we're going to try. Basically, if I or anyone else can't be replaced by a new face without crippling the reserve in one or more aspects, then we're doing it wrong.
ECR Tomw	Posted - 2009.08.04 23:24:00 - [53] Also Tom, your spelling is as terrible as always =P Best way to tell its me every other word is spelled wrong..
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.04 23:39:00 - [54] Originally by: Ambo Unfortunatley, the returns are just way too low to justify the risk imo. 3% for the 'about-as-safe-as-you-can-get' ebank is the lowest I really consider worthwhile. There are a few bits here I will contest. First, we all know the limitations on the 3% EBANK accounts. EBANK also isn't as safe as you can get. No really, it's not. That's not an insult to EBANK, and I think even most of the current BoD there would admit that. Even without the suggested improvements we're already getting via user feedback, the security design for ECR is beyond what most any other EVE business here has had. I'm not saying this to brag, it's simply part of the design philosophy. And if we're not being as safe as possible in some aspect, then we want to be told, and then try to plug it if it's within our means. That's a huge goal behind ECR. Every business makes assumptions based on reputation and the cleverness of those who run it to make ISK, and that's part of the sell to customers, but ECR wants to minimize that effect in exchange for actual security and transparency. The goal is to have no single point of failure, redundant eyes at every level, and group-secured assets at every level to prevent any possible issue of disappearance, loss of interest, or rogue activity -- all three of which burn MD investors on regular basis. A recent complaint lately by newcomers has been that the established players don't play by the rules they want everyone else to play by. If nothing else, this is an experiment as to the result when that complaint is addressed in earnest. ECR's design isn't to solve everyone's woes, it's designed to do a specific job, and to do it right. And that job is to provide an ultra-secure banking and service institution. I certainly don't begrudge you not wanting to invest for that level of interest, but we both know that EBANK reached a good 2 Trillion or so in 1.5% accounts for the reason that not everyone has that same concern. =D Originally by: Carrie Mehome Questions! A bunch of people, including Tom, already addressed your questions but I can add a little more at least: I'll tackle EOH first. EVE Online Hold'Em is not affected by this business venture, and will continue to run as it has for the last 1.5+ years. Part of moving to this project was that EOH is pretty stable and while there is more to do, some variety is needed to keep things fresh. I don't always want to be "that poker guy" and Tom doesn't want to be stuck developing new EOH admin reports for me forever =P I left EBANK shortly before the Ricdic scandal, and was pretty much inactive for a while before that. As I've told some members of EBANK in private, since several of us still talk, my regrets from that time period were letting apathy get to me in the Ricdic years (I gave up after X number of arguments) and then moreso, coming back earlier this year when I really shouldn't have. I was already disenchanted, and wasn't motivated to do anything on those terms. When I finally quit, I decided it was time to just go back to poker .... but that wasn't to be. I grumbled one day to Tom about how we should find people to start a bank, and later found out that Niraia (who has worked with both myself and Grendell) had been talking to Grendell and Roric about just such a thing. Shortly after the Ricidc incident, our group chatted and hashed out fundamentals to see if this was a viable venture. And things went from there. Now we're here. Obviously a lot of ideas in the initial launch were mentioned at EBANK. And on the MD forums, and in real life, and by the many people we talk about market stuff with. Lots of ideas came from every board member. This initial launch and expansion (banking + exchange) obviously overlaps heavily used ideas a lot because they are fundamental. But, I promise you, a lot of the services we have in the works, are going to be brand new or have a unique twist (I hate emoticons but that one was perfect.)
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.08.05 01:51:00 - [55] On a small note.. Selene.. You and your info on the website need to use headers, for the (tl;dr) crowd.. I like reading forums, but even I sometimes get shocked at your post length. I am looking forward to this novel project. Might want to push a bit in communicating the investment banking aspect more.. ? Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge Got Game? Peak a boo...
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.05 03:15:00 - [56] All in good time. There is a lot to do, so can't do it all at once. But yes, making everything more accessible and user-friendly information-wise is high on the list. Considering how fluid design is now since it's been .... a day since people started playing and giving feedback .... waiting a little bit is probably a good idea!
Ulecese Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel	Posted - 2009.08.05 04:20:00 - [57] I'm one of the closed beta-testers and I must say I have been impressed with this sofar. Uber transparency and accounting is a step in the right direction for the market. Looking forward to Integrating IHAFS. p.s. EOH, mail me ------------------------------------ CEO, Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel Banking and 3rd Party Transaction Service : http://ihafs-eve.co.uk/
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.08.05 04:38:00 - [58] Originally by: Ulecese I'm one of the closed beta-testers and I must say I have been impressed with this sofar. Uber transparency and accounting is a step in the right direction for the market. Looking forward to Integrating IHAFS. p.s. EOH, mail me Uh Oh.. I sense the coming together of the great bankers... On that note is Bohemian Grove meeting still the same location? Seriously. More transparency and cooperation between the financial groups is really a huge benefit.. Now the natural next step is "delegating" and helping each business to stand out with the product line they are servicing.. As I see it Ebank is the old institution, with all the known features and functions.. Ithalo is the novel transactions and payments wiz? EVECR will be a universal bank with a high degree of shared information and obviously much transparency. The days of new stuff in EVE surely isnt over yet... Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge Got Game? Peak a boo...
Mynxee Minmatar Hellcats The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.08.05 05:18:00 - [59] Edited by: Mynxee on 05/08/2009 05:18:58 As one of the more recent senior bankers at EOH and now a closed beta tester for EVECR, gotta say I'm very impressed with the vision, organization, management, responsiveness, and customer focus that I've observed on the part of everyone involved in both projects. I'm proud to be associated with them and glad I'm able to contribute in however small a way to the success of both EOH and EVECR. All good wishes for success in this venture, guys. Based on what I've seen so far, I think it's going to be pretty special. Bump It! \| My Blog: Life in Low Sec
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:41:00 - [60] Here confirming my involvment as a director, sorry for the late post, I am away for work in japan and have been for the last 2 weeks. Incase anyone is interested Japan is a beautiful country!
zos23	Posted - 2009.08.05 14:06:00 - [61] I only know these guys from EOH Poker, but they are trustworthy and capable of managing big projects. Good luck.
Niraia Gallente Clown Punchers Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.05 19:00:00 - [62] Thanks! :]
AdmiralDovolski Gallente Nutz N Boltz	Posted - 2009.08.05 21:01:00 - [63] ive been a senior banker at EOH for over a year now, and i cant wait to see this thing get going. as a beta guy, i just want to say that it is looking very epic EOH poker Senior banker, currently suffering from signerfitis
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.05 22:10:00 - [64] Originally by: Grendell Here confirming my involvment as a director, sorry for the late post, I am away for work in japan and have been for the last 2 weeks. Incase anyone is interested Japan is a beautiful country! Fail Grendell. Get your ass over to the forums pronto =D
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2009.08.06 02:15:00 - [65] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Originally by: Grendell Here confirming my involvment as a director, sorry for the late post, I am away for work in japan and have been for the last 2 weeks. Incase anyone is interested Japan is a beautiful country! Fail Grendell. Get your ass over to the forums pronto =D Omw as we speak Can`t wait to see all my evemails when I log back in on the 15th, will be like reading the encyclopedia lol.
eVaLF Delivery Luck	Posted - 2009.08.06 13:00:00 - [66] So far liking thelayout a lot. Security measures are good other than password issue I already brougtup to tomw. I am working on putting my bonds into the system to see how the stock market works. ----- POS FUEL DELIVERY & HIGH & LOW SEC FREIGHTER SERVICES
Seraph Castillon Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.06 20:17:00 - [67] Edited by: Seraph Castillon on 06/08/2009 20:18:23 As been pointed out by other people: I'm wondering what should motivate us to deposit Isk at your bank for the same interest rate as we get on EBANK but with more restrictions (not compounded interest, etc.) and while I'm not really doubting you, less guarantee on security.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.06 20:37:00 - [68] Originally by: Seraph Castillon Edited by: Seraph Castillon on 06/08/2009 20:30:51 Edited by: Seraph Castillon on 06/08/2009 20:18:23 As been pointed out by other people: I'm wondering what should motivate us to deposit Isk at your bank for the same interest rate as we get on EBANK but with more restrictions (no option for compounded interest, etc.) and while I'm not really doubting you, less guarantee on security. Granted EBANK doesn't allow anymore 3% accounts to be opened so that's something. You really did just answer your own question. Of course, if EBANK, furious with this little upstart, re-opens 3% accounts, that's another matter.
Seraph Castillon Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.06 20:42:00 - [69] I answered part of my own question. 12 months for "just" 3% is something I'd only go for if I really didn't know what else to do with my isk. Ofcourse I imagine that there are people who really don't know what to do with it.
Otto3d Caldari Galactic Shivan Republic Corporation	Posted - 2009.08.06 20:53:00 - [70] Fascinating! A virtual bank, stock exchange, and everything from real life to a virtual world. Amazing of how many things this game offers. "I came, I saw, I conquer." - Julius Caesar
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.07 03:05:00 - [71] Just wanted to add that beta testing is going very well so far. We need a couple of days to redo a bunch of features and smooth them out, and then will probably invite another wave of closed beta folks. I'll try to get some executive summaries of what we will be offering in the reserved posts below the OP in the near future as well. =D
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.08 02:18:00 - [72] A bit slow on getting up those executive summaries, but did a bit of a reorg on the BoD forums today. If anyone already has an ECR account but isn't on the forums as a beta tester (even if you weren't invited), just post on http://forum.evecr.com and we'll hook you up since we need more people. Also could we get say 5 more random volunteers to post here and also on the forums? More Beta Volunteers 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Also, we're going to need interested auditors to talk to us, so please also post here and on the open forum, so we can start to get auditors in looking at our interface, and figure out where to take development there. Thansk folks, appreciate all the help we've gotten so far!
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.08.08 05:08:00 - [73] Alrite Selene, hook me up as a beta tester
Aelisha Gallente Nisaba Syndicate New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.08.08 07:58:00 - [74] May I also participate in the beta Test on behalf of Nisaba corporation? We have been looking for a place to put some of our passive isk to work for a while, and I am intrigued in the way your stock market will work. Aelisha - CEO of NISYN New banner soon!
Reginald Rartan More Money Ltd Neutrino Technologies	Posted - 2009.08.08 08:34:00 - [75] Signing up as beta tester. Now MML bonds have a homepage. Subscribe, reserve and order bonds
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2009.08.08 09:23:00 - [76] Edited by: Grendell on 08/08/2009 09:24:00 Originally by: Aelisha I am intrigued in the way your stock market will work. Aelisha - CEO of NISYN Consider the spot yours, as for the workings of the stock market as a beta tester, you will be able to help us play with it and adapt it to what you want out of the system. Were very open to feedback and suggestions. * As for the rest that leaves 2 spots open for this batch of beta testers. EDIT: spelling
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.08 12:31:00 - [77] Okay, so if you don't already have a flagged forum account, ask for one on the open forum. And if you don't have an EVECR account yet, just look at the FAQ in the Closed Beta forum and it should help you out =D
Tekota legion industries ltd Veni Vidi Vici	Posted - 2009.08.08 14:05:00 - [78] Edited by: Tekota on 08/08/2009 14:06:22 Edited by: Tekota on 08/08/2009 14:05:48 This is going to sound like a troll, for which I apologise. I just wanted to square something which struck me as odd. 3rd August: "There's a new bank in town" 24th June: "Selene, are you planning to open an EBANK competitor, and using this thread to help flesh out your processes?" 24th June: "No..." http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1104392&page=3 Now, everyone is entitled to change their mind of course, and likewise there's nothing wrong with hiding plans which are not yet ready for launch. I'm just, well a little confused by the change in six weeks from "no" to "launch". How long has Eve Central Reserve been planned? Longer than six weeks? I apologise if this comes across as trollish, it just struck me that such a seemingly direct answer was given to a direct question and the opposite transpires just six weeks later. EDIT: linkified the link
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.08.08 14:28:00 - [79] Originally by: Tekota Edited by: Tekota on 08/08/2009 14:06:22 Edited by: Tekota on 08/08/2009 14:05:48 This is going to sound like a troll, for which I apologise. I just wanted to square something which struck me as odd. 3rd August: "There's a new bank in town" 24th June: "Selene, are you planning to open an EBANK competitor, and using this thread to help flesh out your processes?" 24th June: "No..." http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1104392&page=3 Now, everyone is entitled to change their mind of course, and likewise there's nothing wrong with hiding plans which are not yet ready for launch. I'm just, well a little confused by the change in six weeks from "no" to "launch". How long has Eve Central Reserve been planned? Longer than six weeks? I apologise if this comes across as trollish, it just struck me that such a seemingly direct answer was given to a direct question and the opposite transpires just six weeks later. EDIT: linkified the link Wow.. Just wow.. What a coincidence. The op in the linked thread doesn't at all look like he was gathering ideas for what the best set of services for his new bank would be. sigh
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics	Posted - 2009.08.08 15:09:00 - [80] I'd like in on the closed beta if there is still a slot open.
Tekota legion industries ltd Veni Vidi Vici	Posted - 2009.08.08 15:12:00 - [81] No need to descend into this tone already, was a simple question asked in as polite and troll free manner as I could envisage about an apparent change of heart. An opportunity for the OP perhaps to explain deeper their thought process. Not an attack, a simple question by a customer of your bank and a potential customer of this bank.
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics	Posted - 2009.08.08 15:23:00 - [82] You didn't really seem trollish, you just said something irrelevant. Yes, we remember Selene's thread and him declining that he would be creating a bank. Yes he created a bank 6 weeks later. This a bad thing? Well, no, not really. After all, how long should it take to create a bank? No only that, but wouldn't his past experience with Ebank allow him to move forward faster that someone starting from scratch? I, for one, am pretty damn happy that he's decided to launch a bank. I'm sure that Selene knows that I'll be griping at him after I've had a chance to use the bank and heckle him over any problems I see.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.08 15:58:00 - [83] Can't enter the site any more, even copy pasting off the mail with the activation. Too bad, I wanted to check the auditor parts. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.08 16:08:00 - [84] Selene I was able to log in initially and then reset the password, but since I've had issue as its no longer accepting logon. The initial impression is slick though I could see some interesting things if you could integrate all this together with the other upcoming back and the various services like EOH. It could provide a blueprint for nearly every out of game service based business. Things like site design, teamspeak hosting, etc...
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.08.08 16:13:00 - [85] Originally by: Tekota No need to descend into this tone already, was a simple question asked in as polite and troll free manner as I could envisage about an apparent change of heart. An opportunity for the OP perhaps to explain deeper their thought process. Not an attack, a simple question by a customer of your bank and a potential customer of this bank. Dont get me wrong. I like Selene. But Im not impressed with how he denied doing a bank and then does it some weeks later. But we all make mistakes.
ECR Tomw	Posted - 2009.08.08 18:02:00 - [86] Since i was directly involved in this i can say for a fact no we had no intentions of opening a bank when that was said. It was about 1 week later when me and selene started to talk about the possibility. Ruffly 3 days later we had our 5 memeber board and coding started. So while opening a bank was thought of in the past no choice to acctully start one and get it going was made till a week after his comments. Hope that awsners your questions and when selene gets back into tonight i am sure he will expand in his usuall wall O text fashion.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.09 14:49:00 - [87] Solisk, added to the list. VV, you haven't made an account in ECR yet, so you might want to make an account on the forums and get flagged so you can see the account-making instructions. Kazzac, we don't do password resets, and can't see your password either. It's set up to allow all users to recover their own password as long as they use a legitimate email address. We can update the email address for you, then you can use that feature to recover the password. I might still have your email from before .... can you evemail it to Selene again just to be sure? Tekota, no worries, that isn't an attack or troll at all. =) I admit, it was a misleading answer, but my intention for that post on page 3 was to only address the idea mining comment and how I wasn't idea mining for my own project. At the time, whether ECR was going to happen or not was still debatable, so I certainly couldn't say yes or no without going into details that weren't ready to be discussed. However, most of the basic banking framework we have now was already formed in my head from previous experience and discussion. I consider my reply there to have been honest -- I couldn't confirm/deny a bank so I avoided it, and I said that I wasn't idea mining for myself, but that I wanted the community to think about these things. Whether or not ECR was to happen, I believe that there is a certain direction MD needs to go in in order to improve the player-run market. Even if I'm not the one working on such things, I still would like to see it happen. To be fair, there were some self-serving bits, since getting people to think about those issues makes me bringing it up later in a possible bank launch less "out of the blue" and hearing some of the same ideas echoed back makes sure that the entire basis of ECR isn't bat **** crazy. So, sorry if that was misleading in a way that offends someone, but there's the why and such of that post. Obviously some people will still consider it blatant idea mining no matter what I say, which I knew could happen when posting it initially. That was my decision at the time though.
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics	Posted - 2009.08.09 19:18:00 - [88] Having trouble with the main website too.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.09 22:32:00 - [89] Originally by: Solisk Having trouble with the main website too. Forums are working again. They're on a separate (and less impressive) host than the bank, and that host was having issues I guess. I've been on/off the bank all day and haven't had any issues. Can you let me know if it's not loading or another error? Consistently? Only once, or once in a while? There have been updates going on, and quite often that breaks the site temporarily, in case you're getting funky yellow code error pages =P
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.10 00:40:00 - [90] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Kazzac, we don't do password resets, and can't see your password either. It's set up to allow all users to recover their own password as long as they use a legitimate email address. We can update the email address for you, then you can use that feature to recover the password. I might still have your email from before .... can you evemail it to Selene again just to be sure? Will do
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.11 00:23:00 - [91] Looking for a couple of known, capable MDers to check out and help us develop the auditor section. We've had one private discussion as to filling one of the three slots, so we will need at least two more seriously interested parties. Please let me know so we can hook you up with access.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.11 07:54:00 - [92] Quote: VV, you haven't made an account in ECR yet, so you might want to make an account on the forums and get flagged so you can see the account-making instructions. I had my account created by the developer, on the main site, why should I register twice? I don't know about Ruby but with PHP I always managed to integrate the various sub-softwares I installed and avoided a tedious chain of registrations to the users... Quote: Looking for a couple of known, capable MDers to check out and help us develop the auditor section. I'd suggest inquiring with one of the 2-3 remaining active auditors. Being a "capable MDer" does not make an auditor imho. Too many babies and finer details to be thrown with the wash water. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Niraia Gallente Clown Punchers Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.11 19:06:00 - [93] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I had my account created by the developer, on the main site, why should I register twice? I don't know about Ruby but with PHP I always managed to integrate the various sub-softwares I installed and avoided a tedious chain of registrations to the users... Security. We don't have the time to invest into developing our own forums at this stage, so we're relying on third party software. If anyone actually managed to compromise those forums, they still wouldn't have access to your bank account. We don't use Ruby, by the way. Eww :p
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.12 01:56:00 - [94] I don't see VV with an account in ECR, which means it never existed since I don't think any have been wiped yet. And we need 3 auditors, so and I have already spoken to the regular suspects at least a little bit, or they've at least posted here. At this point I'm interested in knowing if anyone else who knows their way around public business and reporting from experience has any interest.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.15 13:50:00 - [95] Still looking for auditors =D Also, a lot of updates to the banking side of things, so if any closed beta folks haven't checked in this week, please check the forums for updates and give the site another once-over since the list of changes from all of your feedback is about done. The stock market change list will begin shortly, once we give you guys a day or two for feedback on this stuff. If you need any enticements, the updates include gems such as notes that you can add/edit on any transaction entry on any account, and some enhancements to shared account functionality!
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.16 13:48:00 - [96] For clarification, we need auditors to help us develop the auditor interface -- you don't necessarily have to end up being one of our auditors post launch. Additionally, you also don't have to be a paid auditor in MD, you just have to be familiar with business reporting so that you can suggest additions and changes that are useful. Also, we need some more closed beta testers for the bank part. So if another 5 people or so are interested, please post here and register on the forums, and we can flag you =)
Nemi Lethal Gallente DarkStar Armada One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.08.16 20:15:00 - [97] Ill help out if you need an extra body, just registered on your forums. o7
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.17 01:13:00 - [98] Originally by: Nemi Lethal Ill help out if you need an extra body, just registered on your forums. Thanks, added. Just play around with accounts and such, and post in the forums letting us know what could be improved.
Hel O'Ween Academy of Truth	Posted - 2009.08.17 16:30:00 - [99] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Also, we need some more closed beta testers for the bank part. So if another 5 people or so are interested, please post here and register on the forums, and we can flag you =) Would give it a try, if you still need testers. Registered on the forum. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.17 16:46:00 - [100] Might try and check the auditor part if I get invited before I go for surgery (2 weeks) - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
ECR Grendell	Posted - 2009.08.17 18:14:00 - [101] Originally by: Hel O'Ween Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Also, we need some more closed beta testers for the bank part. So if another 5 people or so are interested, please post here and register on the forums, and we can flag you =) Would give it a try, if you still need testers. Registered on the forum. Added you. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Might try and check the auditor part if I get invited before I go for surgery (2 weeks) Go ahead and register, we will get you sorted.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.18 02:59:00 - [102] Edited by: Selene D''Celeste on 18/08/2009 03:04:48 Yep VV, just sign up on the forum and we can flag you, and point you towards making an ECR account. And Kazzac, I never got that evemail =P I also updated the second post in this thread. Expect the first few posts to get rewritten soon, right after I also rewrite a bunch of our website pages to reflect recent changes.
General Skystrider	Posted - 2009.08.18 03:05:00 - [103] i also would like to check you guys out/help if you need another
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.18 03:08:00 - [104] Originally by: General Skystrider i also would like to check you guys out/help if you need another Sure, just register on the forum and I'll flag you for access. Since we're getting close to open beta, we'll probably flag anyone who takes the time to apply to the forum so they can poke around and give feedback, unless we get like 30 signups a day =D
General Skystrider	Posted - 2009.08.18 03:10:00 - [105] im up on the forums will post there also same name as here
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.19 02:35:00 - [106] Updated the https://www.evecr.com/ site's static pages with up to date information. Details in the post below the OP in this thread.
Prodigal Caldari New Genesis Project	Posted - 2009.08.19 19:14:00 - [107] Good luck with the exchange. Personally I have stayed away from any IPOs or opportunities of this type in the past few years as there is NO ACCEPTABLE standard for reporting Financial Statements in Eve. More to come on that statement at another time.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.20 01:53:00 - [108] Just a quick daily update, but it looks like we're on track for Open Beta this weekend, and a full launch the week after that.
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2009.08.23 16:16:00 - [109] Will have more updates posted here shortly, and for those who don't already know from another thread. EVECR has merged with EVE-Trade, in a common effort to provide the best possible stock exchange.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.24 12:37:00 - [110] Second post updated with new happenings.
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2009.08.24 18:37:00 - [111] Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 24/08/2009 18:43:14 1.5% interest is just ridiculous. There is no security for us. Names and reputations might be the only thing we really have in EVE, but don't try and convince me that I have no or little risk by loaning you my money. You are paying 1.5% to use my money and then requiring 110% collateral for you to loan that isk to someone else on top of the interest you are charging? Interest rate is way too low for a new bank and not worth the risk. The financial services seem very worthwhile though and I would suggest you just roll out a financial services institution if you are not sure you can cover more than 1.5% interest. Good luck with the new "bank". -GV
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.24 21:44:00 - [112] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus 1.5% interest is just ridiculous. For some, for others not so much. EBANK has over 1.5 Trillion in 1.5% accounts. It may not be for you, but it is a very useful service for others. Originally by: Gabriel Virtus There is no security for us. Names and reputations might be the only thing we really have in EVE, but don't try and convince me that I have no or little risk by loaning you my money. Actually there is far more security in this venture than in almost any other venture or business proposed in MD to date. All of the details of which are available on the "Why Use ECR?" page on our website. Such things as locked down collateral by board and staff, no single point of failure in technology, staff, or decision making, and lots of transparency and controls to prevent the bank from losing money. Reputation has always been a big part in public money handling in EVE, but this is an attempt to go beyond that and make a system that works without even taking reputation into account. Originally by: Gabriel Virtus You are paying 1.5% to use my money and then requiring 110% collateral for you to loan that isk to someone else on top of the interest you are charging? Interest rate is way too low for a new bank and not worth the risk. The financial services seem very worthwhile though and I would suggest you just roll out a financial services institution if you are not sure you can cover more than 1.5% interest. Thanks for the feedback, but anyone who thinks that a new institution has to offer high rates to succeed is mistaken in what the priorities of an EVE bank should be. High rates paid out simply lure people in as investors, and actually hurt the ability to make money and to be a stable business. No collateral on loans is simply inviting people to steal from you, when dealing with the general public. Having growth for growth's sake is useless unless that growth is as safe as possible, otherwise both customers and bank owners will just suffer later. Would you rather have a business that is stable and successful, or one that grows until it collapses? We've had plenty of the latter, and need more of the former.
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:44:00 - [113] Currently looking for another auditor or 2. Post your interest here or on our forums.
Jin Nib	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:16:00 - [114] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Originally by: Gabriel Virtus 1.5% interest is just ridiculous. For some, for others not so much. EBANK has over 1.5 Trillion in 1.5% accounts. It may not be for you, but it is a very useful service for others. TBH, given the problems running banks in EVE 1.5% is not at all tempting. Low rates are what kept me from depositing in E-Bank (not that they needed small ISK's at that point). It's a rate where you can take it or leave it for a personal account, but at least if the ISK is sitting in ones own wallet its relatively secure. Given the low returns on most bonds it's hard to compete I would think, and while no one expects bond rates from a bank it needs to be at least worth while to deal with the hassle and risk of keeping ones money off character. Still I wish you success in your venture. Good, strong, banks can only enrich the financial futures of EVE. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
Xelios Xarxes	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:19:00 - [115] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste EBANK has over 1.5 Trillion in 1.5% accounts. It may not be for you, but it is a very useful service for others. Had. Well maybe still has, but now there's a freeze on all withdrawals. Good luck earning trust at this time.
Trustworthy Joe	Posted - 2009.08.26 02:40:00 - [116] Originally by: Xelios Xarxes Originally by: Selene D'Celeste EBANK has over 1.5 Trillion in 1.5% accounts. It may not be for you, but it is a very useful service for others. Had. Well maybe still has, but now there's a freeze on all withdrawals. Good luck earning trust at this time. this is a very interesting development tbh, as there is little competition with you now selene. also, xelios, arent you that guy spamming ravens in jita local all day? _______________________ want a sig? thats great! post it in response to my posts!
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.08.26 02:44:00 - [117] Originally by: Grendell Currently looking for another auditor or 2. Post your interest here or on our forums. Grendell, I'm interested. Could you message me ingame as to what's involved. Thanks
Scotia ovBurnhaven	Posted - 2009.08.26 03:05:00 - [118] I am intrested in helping out with the Audits I've eve-mailed Selene D'Celeste. Feel free to eve-mail me back if you would like my help.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.26 12:07:00 - [119] Edited by: Selene D''Celeste on 26/08/2009 12:07:14 I will try to get together with Grendell tonight and we will contact you guys to chat if we can. Also, given the EBANK announcement, if there are any questions, concerns, or really anything that wants to be said on the topic of ECR in light of this announcements (i.e. how will ECR prevent X, did you consider Y, how will Z affect you?) then please post here for discussion! Edit: I don't think anyone will be available to reply until tonight, but feel free to post anyway.
Marcus Baltar	Posted - 2009.08.26 12:17:00 - [120] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Also, given the EBANK announcement, if there are any questions, concerns, or really anything that wants to be said on the topic of ECR in light of this announcements (i.e. how will ECR prevent X, did you consider Y, how will Z affect you?) then please post here for discussion! Originally by: https://www.evecr.com/info/whyuseecr.aspx ... Internal Theft or Disappearance ... For BoD members, access to the main wallet of liquid ISK is only done by those directors who have secured some of their personal BPO collections via ECR to the tune of 100 B + per person, making it unprofitable and unwise to attempt any kind of theft. Additionally, all BoD members will have varying amounts of liquid invested into ECR and more or less locked down via the CoD accounts. While this may not cover any loss at 100%, especially if ECR becomes very large, this is a particularly large hedge against theft or disappearance by a core member. I hope that these securities and deposits will be validated regularly by independent auditors. Or maybe a real-time system like AATP/Ray's iCEO page here. (Hopefully with better uptime ). -- --
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.26 12:58:00 - [121] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 26/08/2009 12:59:36 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 26/08/2009 12:58:49 Quote: Also, given the EBANK announcement, if there are any questions, concerns, or really anything that wants to be said on the topic of ECR in light of this announcements (i.e. how will ECR prevent X, did you consider Y, how will Z affect you?) then please post here for discussion! There's really little to be concerned about: DBANK is conceptually the first generation "all one man wonder" attempt at EvE banking (almost an evolution off a renewing bond). EBANK is the second generation "copy from RL banking with BoD, committees and boreaucracy and tricks". ECR third and hopefully finally working descendant off the experiences above, with the good sides (agility of one man, but control of a BoD etc) and not the bad sides (with higher control and transparency since day zero). - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Scotia ovBurnhaven	Posted - 2009.08.26 16:12:00 - [122] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 26/08/2009 12:59:36 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 26/08/2009 12:58:49 Quote: Also, given the EBANK announcement, if there are any questions, concerns, or really anything that wants to be said on the topic of ECR in light of this announcements (i.e. how will ECR prevent X, did you consider Y, how will Z affect you?) then please post here for discussion! There's really little to be concerned about: DBANK is conceptually the first generation "all one man wonder" attempt at EvE banking (almost an evolution off a renewing bond). EBANK is the second generation "copy from RL banking with BoD, committees and boreaucracy and tricks". ECR third and hopefully finally working descendant off the experiences above, with the good sides (agility of one man, but control of a BoD etc) and not the bad sides (with higher control and transparency since day zero). Hopefully the third time is the charm. Hopefully things work out, as this is a great idea, however it is difficult to implement in a way that can be successful over time.
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2009.08.26 16:24:00 - [123] Originally by: Brock Nelson Originally by: Grendell Currently looking for another auditor or 2. Post your interest here or on our forums. Grendell, I'm interested. Could you message me ingame as to what's involved. Thanks Hey brock, Selene and I will be having a meeting on thursday, but before that meeting I'll be able to message or convo you ingame and get you more information regarding the auditing. I will keep you posted. Originally by: Marcus Baltar Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Also, given the EBANK announcement, if there are any questions, concerns, or really anything that wants to be said on the topic of ECR in light of this announcements (i.e. how will ECR prevent X, did you consider Y, how will Z affect you?) then please post here for discussion! Originally by: https://www.evecr.com/info/whyuseecr.aspx ... Internal Theft or Disappearance ... For BoD members, access to the main wallet of liquid ISK is only done by those directors who have secured some of their personal BPO collections via ECR to the tune of 100 B + per person, making it unprofitable and unwise to attempt any kind of theft. Additionally, all BoD members will have varying amounts of liquid invested into ECR and more or less locked down via the CoD accounts. While this may not cover any loss at 100%, especially if ECR becomes very large, this is a particularly large hedge against theft or disappearance by a core member. I hope that these securities and deposits will be validated regularly by independent auditors. Or maybe a real-time system like AATP/Ray's iCEO page here. (Hopefully with better uptime ). hey marcus, We plan to be as transparent as possible with our inner workings. This will include roughly 2 independant auditors, with access to see everything coming in and out. So nothing will go unnoticed, which is exactly what we want. We are more then happy to hear any and all suggestions, that you, our clients would like to see, no suggestion is a bad one.
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2009.08.26 16:30:00 - [124] Originally by: Scotia ovBurnhaven Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 26/08/2009 12:59:36 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 26/08/2009 12:58:49 Quote: Also, given the EBANK announcement, if there are any questions, concerns, or really anything that wants to be said on the topic of ECR in light of this announcements (i.e. how will ECR prevent X, did you consider Y, how will Z affect you?) then please post here for discussion! There's really little to be concerned about: DBANK is conceptually the first generation "all one man wonder" attempt at EvE banking (almost an evolution off a renewing bond). EBANK is the second generation "copy from RL banking with BoD, committees and boreaucracy and tricks". ECR third and hopefully finally working descendant off the experiences above, with the good sides (agility of one man, but control of a BoD etc) and not the bad sides (with higher control and transparency since day zero). Hopefully the third time is the charm. Hopefully things work out, as this is a great idea, however it is difficult to implement in a way that can be successful over time. That I can completely agree with you, as this is by no means an easy task we are undertaking. As previously stated, our plan is to take things slowly, and grow modularly with growth control. We've have learned a lot from the banks of the present and past, and have adapted our strategy accordingly. But we are always lookign for ways to improve, so please ask any questions or bring up any areas you feel might need calrification or improvment, we encourage it!
Tekota legion industries ltd Veni Vidi Vici	Posted - 2009.08.26 16:39:00 - [125] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Also, given the EBANK announcement, if there are any questions, concerns, or really anything that wants to be said on the topic of ECR in light of this announcements (i.e. how will ECR prevent X, did you consider Y, how will Z affect you?) then please post here for discussion! Big news day so thoughts aren't exactly well formulated. This next bit is going to sound a bit harsh to EBank staff; now hell, I'm sure they're used to that at the moment, but I'd hope I can make this sound constructive and relevant to ECR rather than yet another bank slam. Basically we've seen a new dimension to worry about. Trust has always been a known risk - the "will (s)he/they do a runner" element. This has been dealt with arguably well with risk spreading. What we as investors/depositors haven't really given much thought to in the past is, how can I put this nicely, how competent are those involved at doing their job; are they doing the job of oversight on the board or not, are they making money, do they even know if they're losing money. I suppose what I'm saying is imagine a hypothetical situation in the future when the CEO of ECR does a runner with a sizeable but potentially survivable (thanks to risk spreading) chunk of cash. I as a hypothetical investor in ECR would not want to learn at that point that no-one other than afore mentioned light fingered CEO had much of a clue as to the underlying economics, whether the enterprise was profitable or not, what or where the liabilities are. I'd want to see a business where everyone was enabled to and actually did perform oversight, that we knew that fundamentals were still sound and that those employees left could continue to effectively run the operation if slightly shook by a limited internal theft (and that is something that can never be eliminated with current game mechanics). In short, game mechanics can't eliminate scam but players (and I certainly think EBank deserve some significant credit in developing this) can devise methods to limit the risk. Similarly, game mechanics can't ensure that player run business models are working as they are stated to be, and we the players need to devise methods to ensure that this risk is also limited. I believe the simplest method, and the cheapest method, is to provide as much live accounting information as is humanely possible. Start with "books are wide open" and remove the bits which are commercially sensitive rather than starting with closed books and releasing odd bits of info which could have been plucked from thin air for all we know. The reason for this is you instantly enlist an army of spreadsheet geeks who provide their oversight, their time and their varying degrees of skill for free. Bingo, you get an army of free auditors; now sure some of them will be trollish but if you can rise above that you'll find some people will notice things you may not have and enable you to quickly plug holes. Communication really does work wonders, the way Hexx & lately Ray communicated bad news and by and large kept calm under the onslaught is notably good. The quantity of that information was perhaps a little lacking although it seems Ray is working to address that. The forums abhor a vacuum :D If not filled with constructive, calm & informative posting it'll be filled with poison and trolls.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.08.26 16:40:00 - [126] first point: this isn't a dig at you Selene Do you think that people will be interested in investing in banks with the current EBANK issue. EBANK is looking like an oversight disaster from the BOD. I can't see how much trust there is in banks at present, especially if EBANK goes the ISK hostage route and locks people ISK up for a year. They might get out of the hole in the end but they will be pariah's in the game.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.26 17:37:00 - [127] Quote: But we are always lookign for ways to improve, so please ask any questions or bring up any areas you feel might need calrification or improvment, we encourage it! When I was testing the auditor addy, I and Selene went to talk about the tools we are given to keep your institution under control. I noticed a big issue and we could not really solve it: auditors have to believe in your self-generated accounting. Of course, customers and business privacy has to be defended but this removes us the only way to make sure everything is always in check. Quote: I can't see how much trust there is in banks at present, especially if EBANK goes the ISK hostage route and locks people ISK up for a year. They might get out of the hole in the end but they will be pariah's in the game And the peculiar thing is when you make them notice how they are self neutering in the long run, they get hissy fits :S - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Brian Kwok	Posted - 2009.08.26 23:18:00 - [128] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha And the peculiar thing is when you make them notice how they are self neutering in the long run, they get hissy fits :S I think we'd all appreciate it if you kept the ebank fun in the ebank threads unless it actually relates to how Selene's bank can do a better job, which the above comment cannot.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.27 02:25:00 - [129] Originally by: Marcus Baltar I hope that these securities and deposits will be validated regularly by independent auditors. Or maybe a real-time system like AATP/Ray's iCEO page here. (Hopefully with better uptime ). The initial plan is 3 auditors and basic anonymized data, and from there having all three help us develop a more complete and robust auditing system.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.27 03:38:00 - [130] Edited by: Selene D''Celeste on 27/08/2009 03:42:25 Originally by: Tekota In short, game mechanics can't eliminate scam but players (and I certainly think EBank deserve some significant credit in developing this) can devise methods to limit the risk. Similarly, game mechanics can't ensure that player run business models are working as they are stated to be, and we the players need to devise methods to ensure that this risk is also limited. That was a pretty awesome post, but I'll focus mainly on this part, as most of the security and transparency issues are already in consideration and listed on a couple of static pages on our website ("Why Use ECR?" primarily). EBANK has done a lot in advancing business past where it was before if in no other way that the ideals held by the majority of its board and where they wanted to take it (as opposed to where it ended up). There is also a lot we can do within the limited mechanisms that CCP has provided us. The major solutions to these risks as I have seen them (and tried to incorporate them into ECR) are: - Reputation/security of directors. As opposed to relying simply on reputation (such as my customers do with me for EOH), the goal with ECR is to actually secure against director theft by having the directors heavily invest in the bank and/or secure hundreds of billions in collateral by the group. Obviously this isn't an option for most EVE players, but as of right now, four of our five board members are in the multi-hundreds-of-billions club, so being able to appropriately secure each other isn't too difficult. - Transparency and accounting. A lot was learned in the year and a half that EOH has been around about accounting and tracking the finances for thousands of accounts (currently almost 7000 accounts in the EOH system). Between trying to make robust reports and having three auditors help us develop a set of reports and tools for them to analyze our security and profitability from, we should be prevented from both intentional accounting errors and accidental ones. - Risk segregation. Instead of having all deposits pooled into one pile and invested in both high and low risk operations, ECR splits this up among its accounts/CoDs, as well as in stocks. This means that investors are only exposed to the risk, and benefit from the return, that they have chosen. This also has the benefit of allowing customers to choose and accept risk, as opposed to the current model where any loss is a loss for the bank itself. This is not a healthy way to due business, and being able to simultaneously empower customer choice and avoid collapse from a single large failure is a pretty nice design choice in my opinion. Originally by: cosmoray Do you think that people will be interested in investing in banks with the current EBANK issue. I can't see how much trust there is in banks at present, especially if EBANK goes the ISK hostage route and locks people ISK up for a year. They might get out of the hole in the end but they will be pariah's in the game. Right now it's hard to make a fair assessment of what the investment community will accept since the EBANK freeze has just been announced. ECR should be primarily unaffected by this for several reasons: - There is still a huge demand for investment despite the risk, as we see time and time again. I don't think that even a total collapse of EBANK would cause this to stop forever. - ECR is not designed to grow as much as possible, only as much as needed. The bank portion of it could probably be totally funded by the BoD for at least the first half a year of its growth. Most of the focus post-launch will be on services that don't specifically involve ISK staying within the bank for very long, such as the virtual stock market. - Despite recent events, many people still have faith in both EBANK and banking. Given our focus on security and transparency, even if many have been turned off to banking, I think we will be able to offer something to a significant portion of EVE investors.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.27 08:04:00 - [131] Since we are also talking of the grand themes, I think that there's one place where all of the EvE issues have been met and dealt with: real life. I read that there are people who are able to convince their wealthy friends to partly acquire EBANK debt. I read that you and your BoD are able to field hundreds of billions. At this point, I suggest to create a new thread and start organizing the next step in EvE: an independent, high level money fund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_fund) whose BoD are all those guys. The only way to even hope to put those chaps together is to have a Selene+ sized big player willing to act as catalyzer. EvE is not better than RL (some would argue for worse, but it's not. They only see "law" and "rights" because that's what's teached and show to the small fries that fill our planet). So, EvE could use a simplified-yet-working version (I know I am putting great "freedom" and the RL institutions are not exactly like that) of: - an independent underlying fund that maintains stability on the high level heavy weigtht financial entities. These could include banks, but also giant IPOs / bonds. The fund has NO "end user" clients. It'd be the safe hold of banks. - a FDIC-alike structure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fdic) also managed by the above people (yes, there's a risk of a mega-cartel but I can't see these guys parting off their hundreds billions "for the greater good"). Any new, bigger than 10B NAV entity would subscribe to this FDIC in the form of collateralized security to be held till successful maturity. Sure, some investees would refuse. Investors would have the choice to go "raw money" or choose the "this is an FDIC insured investment" prestige label for similar returns. Guess the result. Banks too could ask their clients: want 1.5% interest with no FDIC insurance or 1.4% with insurance? Or have a paid package to implement the insurance. The money fund and "FDIC" would have cross checks and need cross voting to unlock capital and / or some structure akin to Bad Bobby's investment. By spreading capital and responsibilities, the risk of individual defaults, scams and so on WILL possibly increase but they would have less weigth than when "the one miracle man" disappears with all the cash. Sorry for posting this very confused and hasty stuff, I am at work running like crazy and just have time to press a key every now and then. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council Seposita Astrum	Posted - 2009.08.27 17:51:00 - [132] Reserved Please re-size your signature to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes.Applebabe
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:00:00 - [133] I have a very simple pair of questions: 1. At this time, what is the cap (maximum) amount of isk that this bank is willing to be responsible (liable) for? 2. Assuming you are at that maximum, if you were to pick the weakest link (even yourself) in the organization to go rogue, get hacked, whatever: how much of that isk would be lost? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Johnny ReeRee The ReeRee Brigade	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:45:00 - [134] I'm baffled that anyone who has been through the ISS / EBank and other experiences would think this is a good idea. Is this just some weird social experiment? Masochistic impulse? This cannot and will not work, long-term. Build all the apparatus you like -- the game won't support this, and in fact it works against you. You can't even make the social contracts work in your favor here. Why does Eve need banks so desperately? I don't understand the impulse to keep trying to build them, when these things have been much always been disastrous failures.
Tekota legion industries ltd Veni Vidi Vici	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:18:00 - [135] Originally by: Johnny ReeRee I'm baffled that anyone who has been through the ISS / EBank and other experiences would think this is a good idea. Is this just some weird social experiment? Masochistic impulse? This cannot and will not work, long-term. Build all the apparatus you like -- the game won't support this, and in fact it works against you. You can't even make the social contracts work in your favor here. Why does Eve need banks so desperately? I don't understand the impulse to keep trying to build them, when these things have been much always been disastrous failures. Good idea, I genuinely think banks are a fantastic idea. Only problem it would seem is that no-one's ever really gotten one to work. As for why people keep trying to build them, ostensibly it's due to demand. Secondary markets as a whole provide options that individuals can't - it's in essence the same idea as a corporation - the organisation as a whole can achieve things individuals can't. Individuals would struggle to survive a run of bad luck inventing jump freighters, or copying titan BPOs - however with secondary markets it becomes a possibility. Game mechanics can improve, in reality they really can't get any worse for securing secondary markets. Meanwhile, over many years I'd like to think that the player base is working round the obstacles.
Johnny ReeRee The ReeRee Brigade	Posted - 2009.08.27 20:35:00 - [136] Edited by: Johnny ReeRee on 27/08/2009 20:39:04 I don't see any evidence of progression. I mean, that was cited, but in an odd way, by pointing to a long history of failure and saying See! NOW we've figured it out! Not only are banks in Eve pretty much a non-starter, but "public" corporations and bonds are also going nowhere. Sure, there are honest people, and if you can find someone you think is honest, invest away. Plenty of IPOs have received money and diligently paid out (including ISS). Good for them! But there is no system of reporting, business plan, management apparatus, or any other mechanism that gives you any inkling of a better idea that you won't be ripped off. All that stuff is a total waste of time, for producer and consumer. In fact, if history is a guide, the more complicated and grandiose the Eve business apparatus, the more likely there is to be abuse and graft. All there is, is reputation, which is a thin reed in the Eve Universe.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.27 20:47:00 - [137] Originally by: Johnny ReeRee Edited by: Johnny ReeRee on 27/08/2009 20:39:04 I don't see any evidence of progression. I mean, that was cited, but in an odd way, by pointing to a long history of failure and saying See! NOW we've figured it out! Not only are banks in Eve pretty much a non-starter, but "public" corporations and bonds are also going nowhere. Sure, there are honest people, and if you can find someone you think is honest, invest away. Plenty of IPOs have received money and diligently paid out (including ISS). Good for them! But there is no system of reporting, business plan, management apparatus, or any other mechanism that gives you any inkling of a better idea that you won't be ripped off. All that stuff is a total waste of time, for producer and consumer. In fact, if history is a guide, the more complicated and grandiose the Eve business apparatus, the more likely there is to be abuse and graft. All there is, is reputation, which is a thin reed in the Eve Universe. You and many others are blinded by the supernova effect caused by the recent events. There is demand for financial services and there is higher to lower quality of offer. Can't cry if going for the unsecured 10% bond when there's a much more secure for 5%. IF it's too low or risky for you, then just don't invest and let others do it. Same for the banks. Feel it's too risky? Then don't open an account. Feel it's too low interest? Same as above. If the banks did not get thousands of accounts requests and thousands of people ok with 1.5% this is not going to suddenly stop. And until there'll be demand, someone will invent ways to provide for an offer. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Scotia ovBurnhaven	Posted - 2009.08.27 21:39:00 - [138] Looking back over the last few posts there seems to be a common concern over the issue of banks. In my opinion the largest issue with all of the banks in the past is there lack of public report and auditing. This is an issue that Selene and the directors have addressed and are working to come up with an auditing tools to allow people to come in and audit the bank at any time. Also there was a question regarding the maximum amount of isk the bank is willing to take on. Currently it appears to be 20 Billion ISK, I am not sure if this number will change when the bank is open to the public. ~Scotia ovBurnhaven
Amarr Citizen 155 Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.27 23:35:00 - [139] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha IF it's too low or risky for you, then just don't invest and let others do it. Funny seeing you give the above advice considering all the *****ing you did about my bond. So what you're saying is that if its too risky then simply don't invest but if you can accept the risk then its ok to invest. This seems like the very same idea I stated in my bond offering. Glad to see you agree with me now. What a douche. <Amarr's signature>
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.28 00:02:00 - [140] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha IF it's too low or risky for you, then just don't invest and let others do it. Funny seeing you give the above advice considering all the ****ing you did about my bond. So what you're saying is that if its too risky then simply don't invest but if you can accept the risk then its ok to invest. This seems like the very same idea I stated in my bond offering. Glad to see you agree with me now. What a douche. The difference, in a ECR thread, is that they are striving for transparency and real time auditing (even if with limits I did not spare to talk about), while you leveraged on a bank's name and role and gave no sign of even accepting a check. The above people, instead, are scared to even approach a fully audited and collateralized business now, due to the recent events. It's why imho they should calm down and let waters clear up and then think with a colder mind. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read* http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.28 00:46:00 - [141] Edited by: Selene D''Celeste on 28/08/2009 00:54:52 A bit busy tonight, so pardon if I skim through posts here. Originally by: Dzil 1. At this time, what is the cap (maximum) amount of isk that this bank is willing to be responsible (liable) for? 2. Assuming you are at that maximum, if you were to pick the weakest link (even yourself) in the organization to go rogue, get hacked, whatever: how much of that isk would be lost? The initial bank cap is going to be 200 B. A decent chunk of this will be director money, and that cap will only adjust as the demand for secure loans changes. Basically, the bank should only take on more ISK if it can support paying out via business. This leads into question #2, and the answer there is "hopefully 0". Initially we're looking at around 70-100 B in collateral for the 3 board members who will be having main wallet access. This will probably grow with time, but so will the money supply. The hope is that, especially with help from auditors, we will be able to balance the movement of ISK and collateral from loans and services with our own collateral, so even in a worst-case hacking scenario, no more can be taken than is securely locked down by the group. This will be far from perfect early on, but we're already talking with multiple auditors and among outselves to plan how we want this aspect of ECR to develop (that of total collateral and security). Originally by: Johnny ReeRee I don't see any evidence of progression. I mean, that was cited, but in an odd way, by pointing to a long history of failure and saying See! NOW we've figured it out! There has been progression, it just isn't obvious since most major ventures have met with failure on some level. Originally banks were little more than spreadsheets or one person saying "Hey, I can invest your money". EBANK pushed this forward with the board concept, but accounting was lacking. While not a bank, we have done a lot on the internal accounting level with EOH, which has survived its fair share of disasters and continued on. With ECR we want to not only see what happens when we open the doors on transparency and involvement, but to see how far we can push the security end of things. Originally by: Johnny ReeRee But there is no system of reporting, business plan, management apparatus, or any other mechanism that gives you any inkling of a better idea that you won't be ripped off. All that stuff is a total waste of time, for producer and consumer. In fact, if history is a guide, the more complicated and grandiose the Eve business apparatus, the more likely there is to be abuse and graft. All there is, is reputation, which is a thin reed in the Eve Universe. This is only partly true, and that's true in the sense that to date, EVE business has mostly fallen under the above rules. However, this does not have to be the case. While some IPOs have been fully secured by third parties, there has never been a group of business owners who have secured each other, collectively, as we plan to do by having every director with main wallet access keeping ISK or locked BPOs in the bank, making theft pointless and correcting for disappearances or hacking. I have also pointed out the difference between transparency and security before. Transparency allows others to be more aware of what they are investing in (which makes them happy) and prevents business owners from cutting corners or being shady (which is good). Security however is only real security, as in "we can get all of our money back if **** hits the fan" security. The collateral component of ECR is part of this. The fact is that once the bank and stock exchange are complete, we will probably mostly focus on services that don't involved ISK staying in the system for very long. Uncontrolled growth is bad. Growing to grow is bad. Perhaps we have had a "bigger is better" mentality, but in the wrong way. Bigger is better should apply to profits generated for owners and customers, not the amount of money being invested.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.28 00:59:00 - [142] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha At this point, I suggest to create a new thread and start organizing the next step in EvE: an independent, high level money fund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_fund) whose BoD are all those guys. It's an interesting idea, and one that Hexxx has always had in mind when he talked about what EBANK could become (read his past posts and you will see the theme). The difficulty is that the number of wealthy EVE players who run public business or who care to deal with it are pretty small. Most players in the secondary market are here because they enjoy playing EVE this way, or they really believe they can start their fortune with a public enterprise (some do, others do not). But yes, in order for this to work, a lot of very wealthy people have to put their money on the line in order to make something like this work. We're doing this in a "small" way with our collateral. Maybe it can grow with time to become what you describe, maybe not. Maybe a separate entity will emerge with such goals in mind. I don't know. The concept does merit some thinking about, because I'll be damned if we've already squeezed all the new ideas we can out of this sandbox. I don't think we're even close.
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2009.08.28 03:58:00 - [143] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Initially we're looking at around 70-100 B in collateral for the 3 board members who will be having main wallet access. To clarify, that's 70-100b each.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.28 07:04:00 - [144] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 28/08/2009 07:08:16 I still see two outstanding questions. One is easily solved by just being better, the other is hairy: 1) Will you hide behind the "we are a private entity and thus <insert here a joke of sad excuse not to explain WTF is going on>" 2) There's an urgent - more than ever - to physically demonstrate you are not out to scam people and that your accounting as as clear as baby's water. You have to find out a way to give an external 3rd independent party technical means to independently and directly confirm your statements, ledgers and whatever. If till 1 week ago this was advisable (Selene is hammering the head against this issue since a while), now imho it's almost a priority. Trust is hard to come by these days and it's a scarce commodity already even without making 100,000 privacy issues. Edit: in case the above nonsense is not clear, I thought over and over this thing. Providing for a proxy, "moderated" auditing is fine for a random customer to "check the situation out", but you have to get trusted independent external people and toss them the actual API keys so they can brutally and objectively gauge the situation. Any lesser solution is a farce and an huge falsity bubble waiting to burst since day 1. And we have seen with recent examples what happens when transparency and profitability issues start at day 1. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.28 12:29:00 - [145] The use of the API brings up one of the most difficult questions to answer, as you said above. First, on a trivial level, when there are limits on API pulls and API pulls are the engine on which a business runs, having additional pulls used for verification alone can be wasteful, if not a nuisance. The real questions comes down to verifiability of the information versus customer privacy. The concept of a board is key to a business like a bank simply because of the ability for multiple players to keep each other in check, if done properly. This does already raise the number of people who can see customer data, but this is unavoidable. Auditors play a role where they need to verify the information given by the business owners, but at some point you have to exchange verification with privacy. Especially when you realize that auditors are nothing more than other players, just like the business owners, and aren't guaranteed to be some privacy specialists. Consider: Case 1: 5 board members + 0 auditors can see data Here, privacy is preserved, which allows customers to do business without needing to let their information be visible to more than the minimum number of individuals. This also means that auditor data needs to be taken along with business data, and all such data handed off to auditors by the board (the current approach). This can be carried to the extent where all raw data, reports on each aspect of the bank, and downloadable versions of such would be available to auditors, with the one change being that all names are removed and replaced with ID numbers for anonymization. Pros: privacy preserved, API pulls not obstructed Cons: potential for doctoring of data by 1 or more BoD Case 2: 5 board members + 3 auditors can see data Pros: more difficult for data to be doctored Cons: potential API issues, privacy is weakened Case 3: 5 board members + everyone can see data (100% public) Pros: basically impossible for data to be doctored Cons: privacy does not exist, business becomes non-functional due to API cap In conclusion, the entire point of auditors is to have eyes looking over the data that are not invested in the business so that a "neutral party" can keep things in check to some degree. However, there are obvious drawbacks to allowing actual API access, and it becomes a customer tradeoff between privacy and reassurance of validity. Without releasing the raw API to auditors, we can present such a complete picture of data via reports and downloadable wallet feeds that it should be ridiculously difficult to change data without it being noticed, and without losing customer privacy or causing API issues. This whole trade-off is very much up for discussion right now, but especially after talking with you before VV, it seems that if we can provide all of our data in the proper formats for auditors to not only search through on our site, but to download and run their own reports on, then that should get us very close to what we want without the drawbacks that come with actually letting others do pulls on the API. Annoyingly this is one aspect where it's nigh impossible to give perfect insurance. Even if auditors could see raw API, customers still have to be concerned about them being on the take, or having an unknown stake in the business, or even just not paying attention. No matter what, we will end up with a finite number of people looking over the business data, and whatever that number ends up being, it is going to be impossible to convince everyone things are exactly as they seem.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:14:00 - [146] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste First, on a trivial level, when there are limits on API pulls and API pulls are the engine on which a business runs, having additional pulls used for verification alone can be wasteful, if not a nuisance. I use an API cache because of this. It stores the last pull and just presents that if the actual API is not available. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.28 14:01:00 - [147] Quote: Auditors play a role where they need to verify the information given by the business owners, but at some point you have to exchange verification with privacy. Especially when you realize that auditors are nothing more than other players, just like the business owners, and aren't guaranteed to be some privacy specialists I fully agree with what you say and I am honest to say I don't know how to get out of this circular cluster*k situation where you must have privacy but you can't have privacy. But I can safely argue that less than full disclosure = a farce that none customers will believe. It's just bound to happen that things will diverge between real and "projected" accounting. I want to be far, far away for when this will* happen. Because (assuming I was given the task) I'd be immediately called accomplice of a scam. I am not compatible with scamming so I'd have to just refuse to ever take any job involving an half control. As for the point about people having to rely on auditors not being "bought in", I can't help either. Even giving API keys around I could not prove I did not get ISK on an undisclosed alt. I fear we are imposing a wrong approach to the whole matter and that is what introduces all these issues. Need to find an approach that makes inconvenient to anyone in the chain to use weighted dices, not justs a matter of "reputability". By the way this issue is also shared by Hexxx insurance idea. Assuming he can still gather popular support after what happened, he has to explain why on Earth he's allowed to take every precaution and impose every kind of disincentiving downside onto the subscribers to play dirty, when they could just ask him WHY they should trust him their money without a guarantee or collateral. It'd take a lot of persuasion to put enough "perceived risk feeling" in people to have them give unsecured hundreds of millions like that. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.28 22:22:00 - [148] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Selene D'Celeste First, on a trivial level, when there are limits on API pulls and API pulls are the engine on which a business runs, having additional pulls used for verification alone can be wasteful, if not a nuisance. I use an API cache because of this. It stores the last pull and just presents that if the actual API is not available. I'm talking about the ability to process deposits in as close to real time as possible, primarily. We already have a setup for doing multiple pulls on corporate transactions every hour, reducing the deposit time from an hour to as low as say 10 minutes. Originally we made such a mechanism for deployment in the upcoming upgrade to EOH's websites, but also realize that this can be very useful for a bank as well. Besides, aside from wallet movement, assets are a big part of audits, and those do have very tight restrictions which could mean delayed updating of data in the business service itself if there were a series of active pulls by external auditors. That's the real concern on a technical level, though I think that customer privacy is a more serious issue.
Glarion Garnier The Scope	Posted - 2009.08.29 21:51:00 - [149] Few toughts that instantly merge when i hear the name central reserve. To think that a palyer would run a bank .. there is lot's of work involved to run a bank specially when you consider the external web sites and all. So why would anyone one do it for few petty billions if he wasnt aiming for an allout major scamm. And the wording selection it self points to the IRL biggest "legalized" scamm of all times. So has the creator knowingly set the stage for the rest of us as a laughing warning sign. Should anyone be stupid enough to fall for it, is welcome to fall for it. He's honest about the fact that he's going to scamm the rest of you just to be a gentlemanly open about it - "the name should have warned you all" Is that what he's going to say few years from now. Who knows. Perhaps he aims to form a bank IRL and needs some practice by doing it virually. Who knows. Well Selene D'Celeste knows. _________________________________ -be vary of the men behind the curtain-
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2009.08.29 22:59:00 - [150] Originally by: Glarion Garnier Few toughts that instantly merge when i hear the name central reserve. To think that a palyer would run a bank .. there is lot's of work involved to run a bank specially when you consider the external web sites and all. So why would anyone one do it for few petty billions if he wasnt aiming for an allout major scamm. Well I don't speak for the rest of the board, when I explain why for myself, but I'd imagine their intentions would not be far from my own. Personally I've played eve since 2003, and have met every goal I've set for myself. For me this is a challenge, one I haven't had in this sector in EVE. Especially now when many are saying a proper bank can't be run, it just fuels my desire to be the one to prove the masses wrong. I've always been the type of person who likes to create, not only in game but out of game as well, as I'm sure many males really enjoy creating things of their own they can be proud of. Apart from that I enjoy giving back to the community we have here in EVE, yes it sounds really corny, but it's how I feel about it. I like being able to help people and being able to improve the way things are done. Like my T2 BPO assessment service or my free isk giveaways, those were never my money trains nor were they ever started for personal gain, other then that of my own satisfaction. My T2 BPO assessment service I've run for quite some time now, and only recently had to implement fee's to try and reduce my workload from the service to deter people from abusing my time. My isk giveaway's well those are just pure isk sinks that I enjoy running. There's enough cruelty and bad in EVE, why not shake peoples beliefs and do something genuine and nice with no strings attached. I love to see people going nuts in those threads for the free stuff Much like this development of ECR it will by no means be my money train, but another challenge and way of giving back to the community, and showing people that it is possible to run a bank in eve. I've been a customer of Ebank, Dbank, and BMBE. I'm by no means trying to impugn their hard work they've done with my next comment, as I feel they have each made monumental progress for the community, regardless of their outcomes. By being a customer of everyone of those banks/instituations, I've always felt that things could perhaps be done better, in one way or another. Well it feels like I might be rambling now, but you get the picture I guess. If you would like clarification on anything, all you have to do is ask, i'll be more then happy to answer.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.30 01:44:00 - [151] Originally by: Glarion Garnier To think that a palyer would run a bank .. there is lot's of work involved to run a bank specially when you consider the external web sites and all. So why would anyone one do it for few petty billions if he wasnt aiming for an allout major scamm. Since you probably haven't taken the time to read about how ECR plans on running, nor the security measures in place, there's not a lot to say in response to your post. You've also gone ahead and projected your assessment of what is or isn't worth someone's time onto others. However, you are right about one thing. Banking doesn't make a lot of money. This is exactly why banking is only the foundation of ECR, and certainly not the focus. It's almost a side-effect of having financial accounts for use with a set of user and business services (stock market, unannounced projects, etc.). I consider a successful business to be a business that adds value by allowing other players to do things they couldn't otherwise do, and at the same time being financially successful with said business. EVE Online Hold'Em is held to these standards, and so is EVE Central Reserve.
Varo Jan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.30 02:55:00 - [152] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Banking doesn't make a lot of money. This is exactly why banking is only the foundation of ECR, and certainly not the focus. It's almost a side-effect of having financial accounts for use with a set of user and business services (stock market, unannounced projects, etc.). I consider a successful business to be a business that adds value by allowing other players to do things they couldn't otherwise do, and at the same time being financially successful with said business. EVE Online Hold'Em is held to these standards, and so is EVE Central Reserve. Banking is not the focus? Then change the name. No, I¦m not being facetious. I think that¦s a very dangerous thing to say on your part, especially in the current circumstances. Potential customers of your side-effect bank will not be comforted at all by that. Random observations: 1. Yes, a glossy forum/website helps you market your product. Yes, IT is important. But it is not the be-all and end-all. Ultimately it¦s about good, in-depth management. 2. Are you giving up your poker? If not, that would be a concern. 3. If your BoD of 5(?) is the main management team, it is too small for what you¦re planning to do. 4. You¦re planning to do too much at once, and run the danger of falling between the stools, especially if your BoD members plan to maintain existing activities. 5. There¦s a potential conflict of interest with your proposed auditing service. I don¦t agree with that at all. It¦s open to abuse or, at least, peer pressure from the bank on the auditor. 6. An independent auditor of any of your activities needs, must have, full raw API access, not filtered information. Period. No arguments. So far, I¦ve seen talk about auditing customer deposits, none about auditing the other side of the balance sheet - whatever revenue generation activities you plan. The latter is far more important, in my view. Your expenses would also need to be audited. 7. Do any of your BoD members or management team have RL operational experience in the following fields: auditing, accounting, banking?
Amarr Citizen 155 Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.30 03:05:00 - [153] Edited by: Amarr Citizen 155 on 30/08/2009 03:05:15 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha The difference, in a ECR thread, is that they are striving for transparency and real time auditing (even if with limits I did not spare to talk about), while you leveraged on a bank's name and role and gave no sign of even accepting a check. The above people, instead, are scared to even approach a fully audited and collateralized business now, due to the recent events. It's why imho they should calm down and let waters clear up and then think with a colder mind. Actually no, I didn't and never have had to leverage on a bank's name or role. That is the part you always missed about my bond offering. I mentioned ebank in my offering for the sake of full disclosure in regards to where the isk could be at any time, not why people should invest. I mentioned ebank because I wanted to make sure that potential investors understood that not only would they have to trust me with their isk but they also might have to trust ebank because I would likely deposit some of the idle bond isk in ebank. You never got that point and you still don't. But obviously you are more intelligent than I am and this thread isn't about either of us so I'm going to make my exit now. Please feel free to get the last word in and "wtfpwn" me. Edit: fixed quoting mistake. <Amarr's signature>
species2143	Posted - 2009.08.30 06:34:00 - [154] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Edited by: Amarr Citizen 155 on 30/08/2009 03:05:15 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha The difference, in a ECR thread, is that they are striving for transparency and real time auditing (even if with limits I did not spare to talk about), while you leveraged on a bank's name and role and gave no sign of even accepting a check. The above people, instead, are scared to even approach a fully audited and collateralized business now, due to the recent events. It's why imho they should calm down and let waters clear up and then think with a colder mind. Actually no, I didn't and never have had to leverage on a bank's name or role. That is the part you always missed about my bond offering. I mentioned ebank in my offering for the sake of full disclosure in regards to where the isk could be at any time, not why people should invest. I mentioned ebank because I wanted to make sure that potential investors understood that not only would they have to trust me with their isk but they also might have to trust ebank because I would likely deposit some of the idle bond isk in ebank. You never got that point and you still don't. But obviously you are more intelligent than I am and this thread isn't about either of us so I'm going to make my exit now. Please feel free to get the last word in and "wtfpwn" me. Edit: fixed quoting mistake. Yes, you did... at least that's exactly the impression it gives when reading your thread
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.30 06:54:00 - [155] Can we please not derail? Originally by: Varo Jan Banking is not the focus? Then change the name. No, I¦m not being facetious. I think that¦s a very dangerous thing to say on your part, especially in the current circumstances. Potential customers of your side-effect bank will not be comforted at all by that. At the center of everything is the banking functionality. My point was that ECR isn't meant to make tons of money from banking, nor to hoard tons of money in accounts. Banking is simply the obvious base where the most fundamental functionality lies. So it is, in fact, a bank. Originally by: Varo Jan 1. Yes, a glossy forum/website helps you market your product. Yes, IT is important. But it is not the be-all and end-all. Ultimately it¦s about good, in-depth management. This will come as we can get the proper talent to spruce things up. The forum is quite fine already, but the website and logo need some love. It's not exactly our highest priority right now, but it is on the list. Originally by: Varo Jan 2. Are you giving up your poker? If not, that would be a concern. No and I don't see why this would be an issue. Originally by: Varo Jan 3. If your BoD of 5(?) is the main management team, it is too small for what you¦re planning to do. Not at all. Employees will come later, and everything is based around security and automation to the point where ECR should never be more than maybe twice the work it takes to run EOH, and there're only two of us on the management level there. Originally by: Varo Jan 4. You¦re planning to do too much at once, and run the danger of falling between the stools, especially if your BoD members plan to maintain existing activities. A valid opinion, but I disagree. You also might not have read the website documents, and there are lots of timelines and such that we haven't published yet. Nothing is being rushed, and it will all happen in due time. Originally by: Varo Jan 5. There¦s a potential conflict of interest with your proposed auditing service. I don¦t agree with that at all. It¦s open to abuse or, at least, peer pressure from the bank on the auditor. I don't really understand this comment at all. As of now the only auditor involvement with ECR is to be auditing it. There are currently no auditing services planned. I think some may have been mentioned with the EVE-Trade merger, but this hasn't even come up to board discussion yet. Originally by: Varo Jan 6. An independent auditor of any of your activities needs, must have, full raw API access, not filtered information. Period. No arguments. So far, I¦ve seen talk about auditing customer deposits, none about auditing the other side of the balance sheet - whatever revenue generation activities you plan. The latter is far more important, in my view. Your expenses would also need to be audited. The first part of this observation is an opinion that not everyone is going to agree. Auditing at this point is definitely going to include: all wallet traffic, asset pulls, all loan status information, and the current synopsis of the bank's status/profits/risk levels based on collateral vs ISK vs locked assets. Originally by: Varo Jan 7. Do any of your BoD members or management team have RL operational experience in the following fields: auditing, accounting, banking? This question is useless, no offense. It doesn't take an accounting major to make money in EVE, or to learn how to deal with customers. I know far more EVE players with RL degrees and skills in these areas who fail at EVE money making than those who do. This question and any possible answer don't actually mean anything.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.30 06:55:00 - [156] And just to add that discussions with several auditors (IG and IRL) are still in the early phases, so this area is probably going to be looked at dramatically differently before too much longer.
Nuzzy Futs Amarr Hedion University	Posted - 2009.08.30 07:23:00 - [157] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste And just to add that discussions with several auditors (IG and IRL) are still in the early phases, so this area is probably going to be looked at dramatically differently before too much longer. Spend more time thinking about how this would work. the controls and reporting have to be better than the benchmark ebank. That said since you were involved in auditing ebank and didn't blow any whistles are you sure you know what your looking at/for? Awww Nuts.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.30 08:12:00 - [158] Originally by: Nuzzy Futs Originally by: Selene D'Celeste And just to add that discussions with several auditors (IG and IRL) are still in the early phases, so this area is probably going to be looked at dramatically differently before too much longer. Spend more time thinking about how this would work. the controls and reporting have to be better than the benchmark ebank. That said since you were involved in auditing ebank and didn't blow any whistles are you sure you know what your looking at/for? An auditor does his / her job and at the end you can have some of those possible outcomes: - A report is succesfully produced - It's impossible to produce a result due to too much wiry accounting. EvE API has many limits in this respect, from not supporting contracts to only keeping 1000 records and with a cooldown. - It's impossible to produce a result due to internal investee resistances to the audit. I was not here to see how it went at the time, but AFAIK the auditors just bounched off EBANK and ended up resigning their assignment. This is all the "whistle" you should seek for, an auditor is not going to create an irate crying thread about how they made his job impossible. He'll just duly note how he could not proceed beyond the initial steps. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Varo Jan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.30 08:51:00 - [159] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Originally by: Varo Jan 6. An independent auditor of any of your activities needs, must have, full raw API access, not filtered information. Period. No arguments. So far, I¦ve seen talk about auditing customer deposits, none about auditing the other side of the balance sheet - whatever revenue generation activities you plan. The latter is far more important, in my view. Your expenses would also need to be audited. The first part of this observation is an opinion that not everyone is going to agree. Auditing at this point is definitely going to include: all wallet traffic, asset pulls, all loan status information, and the current synopsis of the bank's status/profits/risk levels based on collateral vs ISK vs locked assets. No accountant worth his salt would accept anything less than full access. Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Originally by: Varo Jan 7. Do any of your BoD members or management team have RL operational experience in the following fields: auditing, accounting, banking? This question is useless, no offense. It doesn't take an accounting major to make money in EVE, or to learn how to deal with customers. I know far more EVE players with RL degrees and skills in these areas who fail at EVE money making than those who do. This question and any possible answer don't actually mean anything. Why so defensive? And your point about making money is irrelevant. Neither your accountant nor your auditor are there to make money. Their function is completely different. You wouldn¦t have a non IT bod do your website, would you? Then apply the same simple logic to doing your accounts. Banking in Eve has little in common with banking RL. Nevertheless, I¦d suggest that the opinions of a RL banker would be worth listening to. Am I right in assuming from your answer that none of your people have RL experience in any of those three fields?
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.31 00:30:00 - [160] Originally by: Varo Jan Why so defensive? I wasn't being defensive, I was saying that that's an irrelevant question to ask. Originally by: Varo Jan Banking in Eve has little in common with banking RL. Exactly, they have little in common, so why does it matter? Does telling you that both RL banking and auditing experience exists among the current BoD and the auditors we're in talks with really mean anything? It's true, but if it doesn't really matter, so why ask in the first place? Anyway, a lot of what is planned for ECR is well beyond what we have seen to date, but several parts are still very rough. I'd much rather have useful discussion trying to iron those parts out than go on tangents like the above. That's all =D
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.08.31 01:41:00 - [161] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Originally by: Varo Jan 7. Do any of your BoD members or management team have RL operational experience in the following fields: auditing, accounting, banking? This question is useless, no offense. It doesn't take an accounting major to make money in EVE, or to learn how to deal with customers. I know far more EVE players with RL degrees and skills in these areas who fail at EVE money making than those who do. This question and any possible answer don't actually mean anything. Does the idea of incorporating fundamental accounting principles when starting a bank seem "useless"? The current eBank issues have been highlighted in part due to the release of a long overdue profit & loss statement / balance sheet. You don't need an accounting degree to produce those. If people start to demand better standards of reporting, why not employ people who do it for a living? I assume you had your website designed by someone with RL website experience? At the very least don't dismiss it out of hand. No-one is questioning your ability to make isk, your success or your personal integrity (well, I'm not anyway). If you want to create the next generation of financial service in Eve at least consider some of the oversights that have been made by previous offerings. PS. How many of your team do have RL financial experience? You didn't answer that question.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.31 02:48:00 - [162] Edited by: Selene D''Celeste on 31/08/2009 02:48:45 Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Does the idea of incorporating fundamental accounting principles when starting a bank seem "useless"? No, but again, this has almost nothing to do with RL financial experience. A small amount of common sense will give you more than what you need to handle all accounting necessary for a venture in EVE, or anything basic in RL (maybe I presume too much here?). While we do have financial experience among at least three BoD and auditors to my knowledge, there is very little that comes from said experience that wasn't already thought of. Such experience is very useful for checking ideas against, but this isn't rocket science. Also I'm well aware of precisely how extensive our accounting is, and since we aren't open yet nor have a page to show off at least images/descriptions of internal controls (I'd like to see this done once the website gets redesigned post-launch), you're not really going to know what we have. Sufficed to say, it's good. And for the moment you just have to take my word for that. More will come later though, I promise =) Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel At the very least don't dismiss it out of hand. No-one is questioning your ability to make isk, your success or your personal integrity (well, I'm not anyway). If you want to create the next generation of financial service in Eve at least consider some of the oversights that have been made by previous offerings. Precisely. My original post was simply saying that RL financial experience has very little to do with this. It's not a bad addition (and one we've followed up on), I'm just being honest and saying it's not particularly useful in my opinion. The only place I've really felt wrong about this concerns some of the information pouring in from our auditors now, as it actually does go beyond what we had already planned, which is why they were originally contacted =) Edit: Instead of talking about who has a background, I would be much more interested in the kinds of issues that anyone thinks need to be brought up with the auditors and with the auditing process.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.31 10:32:00 - [163] Quote: PS. How many of your team do have RL financial experience? You didn't answer that question. Let me have a bite to this. I am not on Selene's team but I have tested the new system a bit and given some info about RL financial software and its indicators. They took what I said pretty seriously, they are trying. The results have to be seen, so far the auditing system is quite in its infancy to form any opinion about it. But there are 3 basic and HARD walls to climb: 1) Privacy vs full auditing. This is the though one, so far they have not found an acceptable solution giving auditors a direct access to their accounts that also won't heavily harm investors / clients privacy. 2) API limitations. This is also not exactly soft to deal with. The API got a cooldown and only the last 1000 transactions are stored. Now, the first issue can be fixed by using an API proxy, but then who guarantees against such cache not being tampered with? The second can be partially fixed by imposing EMMA or another similar transactions saving software, but then the bank must stay below 1000 transactions a day (spread them across accounts?) and such software MUST be run every day with no fail nor vacation. Who is going to take this responsibility? 3) RL financial knowledge helps just so much. EvE lacks of basic features, from short selling to stop loss, EvE only got the CCP reports as only real Fundamental Analysis source, EvE's Technical Analysis tools are a joke (I am talking for the stocks part here). We have talked about some workarounds, but the work involved is going to be massive and possibly complex. More in general, RL financial knowledge is welcome but RL practices (very, very important) cannot be 1:1 applied to this venture. The most "life critical" RL financial tools, like controlled loss management are not present. I'll need to talk with Selene for a long time about these, because they are a godsend when stocks are not managed in real time. But now, tomorrow I got some stupid surgery to do so we have to talk later :S Finally, imho the most important part of RL finance is long term survival. Not making huge money NOW. It's generally accepted that 95% of the exchange traders accrue negative income and fail within the first months. The 5% who succeed, do that because of their capital safety practices and this is another long, long theme I could talk about with Selene. So, as you can see, there's still a lot of meat to cook, and asking a lot of questions is fine but do not turn them into suspicious claims because it's just too early for that and they are listening to suggestions so far. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Atima Minmatar House of Marbles	Posted - 2009.08.31 10:39:00 - [164] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: 1) Privacy vs full auditing. This is the though one, so far they have not found an acceptable solution giving auditors a direct access to their accounts that also won't heavily harm investors / clients privacy. Give each account a primary key that is unassociated to the owner, and therefore making all the data anonomous. If a problem with an account is found simply give this key to the database admin and they can address it with the account owner without there being any privacy issues.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.08.31 12:24:00 - [165] Originally by: Atima Give each account a primary key that is unassociated to the owner, and therefore making all the data anonomous. If a problem with an account is found simply give this key to the database admin and they can address it with the account owner without there being any privacy issues. This is actually what we have right now. Auditors can see the full wallet data but all names are replaced with keys so that if you can pull the data and put it into a program (we still have to decide on data formats), it should be easy to look at individual cases and do other analysis. All without affecting privacy. As VV mentioned, this still doesn't change the discussion over direct API access vs an interface such as this. Even using something like the API cache in order to get around limits violates the concern over not having direct API access as that data could potentially be affected. Unfortunately, it will be impossible to both preserve privacy and have the perfect auditing scenario. Most likely we will have to end up somewhere in the middle, but precisely where I do not know.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.31 13:25:00 - [166] The problem is: what auditor wants to compromise his/herself with statement made on synthethic data? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.08.31 13:54:00 - [167] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Unfortunately, it will be impossible to both preserve privacy and have the perfect auditing scenario. Most likely we will have to end up somewhere in the middle, but precisely where I do not know. I think you'll find if you cannot trust your auditor with the privacy of your customer's data, you need a different auditor. This is why this is an underserved profession, there are very few people in EVE where a customer feels safe trusting them with information that could do billions/trillions of isk in damage to them. VV is right: without actual API access for at least ONE auditor, there's nothing stopping you from fabricating financials, and there's no guarantee historical records are being created properly to trace back in the event of a screw up. That may be your compromise: one auditor trusted with everything, two more to challenge any math errors. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Anansi Ink'Tmi In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2009.09.02 18:39:00 - [168] So who do I talk to to apply for employment or where do I sign up to get involved in the beta. I have intense experience in the Real-time stock exchange and it would be interested to see how it works here. Maybe my input might be valuable to some degree. You can contact me ingame @ this character. Lots of luck, Anansi
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2009.09.02 20:18:00 - [169] Originally by: Anansi Ink'Tmi So who do I talk to to apply for employment or where do I sign up to get involved in the beta. I have intense experience in the Real-time stock exchange and it would be interested to see how it works here. Maybe my input might be valuable to some degree. You can contact me ingame @ this character. Lots of luck, Anansi Please register on our forums here: ECR Forum Then post to apply for beta, I will then approve you for the beta discussion forum. To create an account to start using our website, you may follow the instruction in the FAQ once you've been approved for the beta.
Clara Mismer Minmatar Gulfonodi Industries	Posted - 2009.09.02 22:52:00 - [170] Edited by: Clara Mismer on 02/09/2009 22:53:37 Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Edited by: Selene D''Celeste on 31/08/2009 02:48:45 Edit: Instead of talking about who has a background, I would be much more interested in the kinds of issues that anyone thinks need to be brought up with the auditors and with the auditing process. As an auditor you missed the ebank meltdown - what will keep your auditor(s) from missing something similar? I would suggest that the P&L statements be backed up by the statistical sampling method - it would have to be late month items due to how the api and extract timing works. These should be published in their high level condensed form with the monthly reports. At any point if the auditor feels that the reporting cant be verified by extract/api/ logs all of that type transaction will be routed and timed to allow for a full extract to be had to verify results. Yes, that does empower your auditors and create a level of interference but I cant see any other way inside of game mechanics to get numbers verified without taking an 'unnatural' effort. Banks make their money by using the fractional reserve system what will be your reserve/float percent and will that vary by loan risk/collateralized amount? How will you deal with the inefficiencies of size and is there a pool to draw on s they are reached by employees trading?
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.09.03 01:52:00 - [171] Originally by: Clara Mismer As an auditor you missed the ebank meltdown - what will keep your auditor(s) from missing something similar? I wasn't a regular auditor, it was a one time request to audit, which I abandoned due to lack of information. The issue there was lack of information, period. Every transactions, fee charge, and wallet deposit is going to be stored forever and available to both BoD and auditors with ECR. This will end up being a completely different animal. Originally by: Clara Mismer Yes, that does empower your auditors and create a level of interference but I cant see any other way inside of game mechanics to get numbers verified without taking an 'unnatural' effort. I'm still not convinced this is the way to go on the privacy issue alone. That said, it's still on the table, and some way to avoid hindering normal bank operations could probably be arranged. We've even talked of a weekly downtime for upgrades, etc. Originally by: Clara Mismer Banks make their money by using the fractional reserve system what will be your reserve/float percent and will that vary by loan risk/collateralized amount? How will you deal with the inefficiencies of size and is there a pool to draw on s they are reached by employees trading? I don't think any of this applies to ECR how you think it does. There are answers on how we plan operations so far on the website, it's far too much to reiterate here.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.09.03 02:12:00 - [172] To briefly expand on that last part (might as well), all ISK in savings/CDs is only used for 110% collateral loans, nothing else. We'd monitor needs to pull ISK out, but overall the term-limit for deposits prevents it from being very volatile, so we could probably safely utilize up to 80-90%. Also the bank cap on how much can be put in such accounts, with all interest paying out to sweep, keeps over-extension under control. If we did anything else (trading, unsecured, etc) that would be a set of separate stock offered through the virtual stock market once it's up.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.03 04:12:00 - [173] People say that there is no need to have a connection between RL and Eve banks. I think this statement has proved to be NOT TRUE. I have served on the BOD of a RL credit union, I have some but not a massive amount of experience of bank finances. The bank only had $9M in assets, but was fun for the 2 years I was with it. EBANK was very big about running a fractional reserve bank (kept a minimal liquid capital base to allow for daily withdrawals and deposits). In RL life the capital reserve only needs to be 8-12%, as most money is tied up in a traditional loan portfolio. In EVE the monthly accrual of interest REALLY adds up. If you think that of the 2T capital base of EBANK 450B was interest. It was in fact money THAT NEVER existed. The net deposits were about 1.5T and the rest was the database adding numbers to the accounts. It is clear in EVE that you need to keep a much higher capital reserve to deal with deposits / withdrawals. This leaves a much smaller net deposit base to use to pay that compounding interest. I think at least 30% reserve is required to allow for runs and large fluctuations in the account balances. This leaves a too small a pot to make a decent return. I personally can't see how compounding interest can EVER work in EVE as the amount of money required to finance the debt keeps rising. The only way is to have fixed bonds or CD's (USA). These accounts pay fixed interest for one year (or other time limit) and are then redeemed. So the only way banks will work in the future is to launch fixed interest bonds. More can be sold as needed. The good news about bonds,is that you know EXACTLY what your cost of capital is. If you pay 3% interest per month as long as you make 3.1% interest or better you are profitable. I think this would be the best way to run a loan operation, raise bonds to sell as loans where the bank keeps the difference or scripts. With the need for ultra safe investments to safeguard against customer loss, I think only collateral backed loans work. Investing in the secondary market is too risky for a bank where the number one goal is to protect the investor. Personally the only bank model I like to a degree is now BMBE but that could be improved for the shareholders with all earnings paid as dividends. I don't want to see any more banks in EVE wiith or without flashy websites. The fact is the people running them don't have the skill set to do so (I would include pretty much everyone without RL banking experience, including myself) unless the operation was very simple with clear profits and cost of capital.
Drab Cane Killer Breeze Dread Carbon Initiative	Posted - 2009.09.03 07:05:00 - [174] cosmoray, thanks for the above post. Very educational (for me, anyway). Its easy for people to say in hindsight "yeah, that's common sense" when noting that a bank needs to make more on its loans/investments than its customers are accruing interest, but its exactly that kind of thing that EBank was having a difficult time doing. ----------------------------------------------- - Who Dares, Wins
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.09.03 21:13:00 - [175] Originally by: cosmoray People say that there is no need to have a connection between RL and Eve banks. I think this statement has proved to be NOT TRUE. I have served on the BOD of a RL credit union, I have some but not a massive amount of experience of bank finances. The bank only had $9M in assets, but was fun for the 2 years I was with it. My opinion is that in the current environment, the failure of proper bookkeeping is being mistakenly attributed to RL financial experience. The goal is to have solid bookkeeping and enough people watching the records that nothing gets missed or manipulated. A complex internal bookkeeping system arose from EOH without any real-life financial experience to back it, and we've not taken any losses since that was implemented last February. EOH has had at least two or three major screwups with accounts when something in the system broke (not to mention various attempts to compromise by players, which have all failed), but even with only two of us watching the accounting, these were immediately caught and fixed with the reports and safeguards we have in place. While we are retrofitting advances from ECR to EOH right now, EOH is still going to be pretty "fly by the seat of your pants" in comparison to where ECR should end up. Originally by: cosmoray It is clear in EVE that you need to keep a much higher capital reserve to deal with deposits / withdrawals. This leaves a much smaller net deposit base to use to pay that compounding interest. I think at least 30% reserve is required to allow for runs and large fluctuations in the account balances. This leaves a too small a pot to make a decent return. I agree but this only applies to the specific bank setup we have seen so far, which is uncontrolled ISK in (no input cap), and uncontrolled ISK out (no risk segregation). With the current plan that we have on paper, ECR would be paying 1.5-2.5% out and charging 4-6%. Those rates are low since you simply cannot charge higher rates on fully backed loans. At this point, given an average depositor with ISK at 2% and loans at 5%, you still need 40% to break even. In a worst case, there is a 1.5% profit margin, which means that 62.5% would have to be invested to break even. Not that I expect the loan business to be very profitable, but there isn't a lot of wiggle room here. Instead of increasing liquid ISK on hand to deal with demand (which ends up being a liability due to it being an ISK drain and theft possibilities), the better approach is to make almost all investments term-based, with loss of interest and fees for early withdrawal. This keeps ISK mobility down, and there is also less need to keep a lot of extra liquid around. Honestly, I've half considered dropping the 0-term Savings accounts entirely, and -only- having CDs.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.09.03 21:15:00 - [176] Originally by: cosmoray I personally can't see how compounding interest can EVER work in EVE as the amount of money required to finance the debt keeps rising. The only way is to have fixed bonds or CD's (USA). These accounts pay fixed interest for one year (or other time limit) and are then redeemed. So the only way banks will work in the future is to launch fixed interest bonds. More can be sold as needed. The good news about bonds,is that you know EXACTLY what your cost of capital is. If you pay 3% interest per month as long as you make 3.1% interest or better you are profitable. I think this would be the best way to run a loan operation, raise bonds to sell as loans where the bank keeps the difference or scripts. Compounding is bad, which is why it doesn't exist in ECR. Everything is daily paid to sweep. Additionally, as I stated above, any kind of venture or partially/unsecured loan would be offered as a stock on the virtual stock market. This is important for two reasons. First, it allows investors to choose their risk/reward without forcing everyone to suffer in case an investment goes sour. Secondly, the institution itself isn't screwed as soon as bad investments occur because the risk is part of the terms of each stock offered. Full coverage would only apply to the basic accounts/CDs which are only used for fully secured loans anyway, and to any stocks that the board feels safe in launching with that option. Basically, by offering customers the choice of risk (which people prefer), you also negate a major weakness of a financial institution (one major loss and it's over).
Craig Skyle Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.03 22:26:00 - [177] Well, this makes interesting reading, and I will look into your forums. I have some specific questions. Of course the thing that most interested me is the stock market angle. Craig Skyle SkyleTech R&D SkyleTech R&D, for quick turn around time on your research projects, contact us.
Lao Dok Monolith Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.18 20:26:00 - [178] Are there any news about ECR? Still testing?
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.10.18 22:47:00 - [179] Originally by: Lao Dok Are there any news about ECR? Still testing? Yeah. There was a bit of reorganization to do when we absorbed LoW and EVE-Trade, and then people decided to move around the country and get new jobs, and all the timeouts that involves. I also hijacked our coders last month for the EOH website upgrade. Right now we've gotten some board collateral locked down, and are re-reviewing the pre-launch bug list as well as more changes to how accounts are handled and what is offered. There's a decent amount of news, I've just not updated the site with too much since none of it is exciting in and of itself, and I'd rather wait to post it all with an actual launch announcement. For now, all I can promise is Soon (tm).
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2009.10.19 06:41:00 - [180] Isn't this the same Selene D'Celeste that was involved in EBANK failscade? Wasn't she the auditor that didn't bother to mention to anyone that the bank was short about 1.4T isk? Maybe I am mistaken and it was someone else that didn't have the sense to somehow sniff out 1.4T deficit. Probably not. She is clearly a competent manager and auditor. Would definitely invest in her bank. rofl? Yes, there is sarcasm kids. -GV
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.19 07:08:00 - [181] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 19/10/2009 07:10:01 Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Isn't this the same Selene D'Celeste that was involved in EBANK failscade? Wasn't she the auditor that didn't bother to mention to anyone that the bank was short about 1.4T isk? Maybe I am mistaken and it was someone else that didn't have the sense to somehow sniff out 1.4T deficit. Probably not. She is clearly a competent manager and auditor. Would definitely invest in her bank. rofl? Yes, there is sarcasm kids. -GV More than 1 month ago, a guy posted the same thing above already... Edit: ECR and everything else are a mirror of our society: on one side the doers, with all their errors and headbutting. On the other, the criticists who never do anything but blah blah blah "I'd be smarter", "I'd be honest" blah blah but guess what, from Blah blah to => Facts There is a sea between. A sea you never crossed. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.10.19 12:57:00 - [182] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Isn't this the same Selene D'Celeste that was involved in EBANK failscade? Wasn't she the auditor that didn't bother to mention to anyone that the bank was short about 1.4T isk? Maybe I am mistaken and it was someone else that didn't have the sense to somehow sniff out 1.4T deficit. Probably not. She is clearly a competent manager and auditor. Would definitely invest in her bank. rofl? Yes, there is sarcasm kids. -GV Typically, I'd want to disagree with GV first just on principle, and second because he's being an ass. But there's a shred of a good point here that I don't think we should so easily disregard. In the current picture drawn by ebank's directors, (which may improve with their promised upcoming announcement) there is an undisclosed failure by ebank management to properly account for the funds which lead to a sudden freeze of 2+ trillion in EVE assets. Since then e-bank has found a few BoD members guilty of either negligence or fraud and has kicked them off the board; however they have not yet cleared anyone as innocent, including Selene. If Selene is confident she'll come away clean from ebank's audit, she should certainly continue to vest her time in this. But I would be very cautious about investing any money in this until ebank is able to account for its remaining losses. To those that would say Selene had limited involvement with ebank, I disagree based on the following: Selene D'Celeste05/09 - 112,500K - P04/09 - 37,500K - P03/09 - 75,000K - P02/09 - 112,500K - P11/08 - 150,000K - FR+P (2 months)09/08 - 150,000K - FR08/08 - 150,000K - FR07/08 - 1,200,000K - FRBPTotal - 1,987,500K over 18 months (Average 111M per month) http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1176892 Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Johnny ReeRee The ReeRee Brigade	Posted - 2009.10.19 21:22:00 - [183] There is no assurance Selene can make that this thing won't be a disaster. The mechanisms like the one Mr. Horizontal used to rip-off EBANK are completely invisible to investors who have absolutely no ability to gauge the risk -- and ZERO recourse if it happens. So there's an unknown probability of total loss, the demonstrated failure of every single comparable enterprise -- including the ones Selene was involved with, and absolutely no safety net or punishment mechanism. Investing here is simply not rational. But, if you really want to role-play Investment Tycoon (zomg!), knock yourself out. ----------------- Join the ReeRee Brigade!
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.19 22:31:00 - [184] Originally by: Johnny ReeRee There is no assurance Selene can make that this thing won't be a disaster. The mechanisms like the one Mr. Horizontal used to rip-off EBANK are completely invisible to investors who have absolutely no ability to gauge the risk -- and ZERO recourse if it happens. So there's an unknown probability of total loss, the demonstrated failure of every single comparable enterprise -- including the ones Selene was involved with, and absolutely no safety net or punishment mechanism. Investing here is simply not rational. But, if you really want to role-play Investment Tycoon (zomg!), knock yourself out. I noticed you like to add inane observations here and there. If investing here is not rational and role playing is out of question, what about you go and post on something like Facebook or something? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2009.10.20 02:05:00 - [185] Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 20/10/2009 02:07:15 Originally by: Dzil Typically, I'd want to disagree with GV first just on principle, and second because he's being an ass. But there's a shred of a good point here that I don't think we should so easily disregard. In the current picture drawn by ebank's directors, (which may improve with their promised upcoming announcement) there is an undisclosed failure by ebank management to properly account for the funds which lead to a sudden freeze of 2+ trillion in EVE assets. Since then e-bank has found a few BoD members guilty of either negligence or fraud and has kicked them off the board; however they have not yet cleared anyone as innocent, including Selene. If Selene is confident she'll come away clean from ebank's audit, she should certainly continue to vest her time in this. But I would be very cautious about investing any money in this until ebank is able to account for its remaining losses. To those that would say Selene had limited involvement with ebank, I disagree based on the following: Selene D'Celeste05/09 - 112,500K - P04/09 - 37,500K - P03/09 - 75,000K - P02/09 - 112,500K - P11/08 - 150,000K - FR+P (2 months)09/08 - 150,000K - FR08/08 - 150,000K - FR07/08 - 1,200,000K - FRBPTotal - 1,987,500K over 18 months (Average 111M per month) http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1176892 I donÆt mind the personal insults Dzil, especially from someone like you or VV. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha More than 1 month ago, a guy posted the same thing above already... Edit: ECR and everything else are a mirror of our society: on one side the doers, with all their errors and headbutting. On the other, the criticists who never do anything but blah blah blah "I'd be smarter", "I'd be honest" blah blah but guess what, from Blah blah to => Facts There is a sea between. A sea you never crossed. VV proves that persistence is most important in EVE, above intelligence, common sense, or integrity. Thanks for that lesson VV. As to your point, I am not claiming she is directly responsible, I am asking that she be held accountable for her part in the failscade. Maybe if the both of you (Dzil and VV) could kiss these peopleÆs asses a little bit more they might accept you. Watching the lot of you defend these people is like watching a puppy go back to its owner after the owner beat the crap out it still wanting to be loved and accepted. It is just pathetic frankly. Of course I am being an ass. It is warranted. EBANK is, at best, the most epic failscade in the history of EVE. None of them claim any blame for anything. They somehow collected 75Bl isk in salary to oversee a colossal fail and none of them had anything to do with why it failed. It is entirely on other people that are not here to defend themselves for whatever reason. Literally up until 2 weeks before the 1.4t deficit is ôdiscoveredö by Ray, the EBANK BoD would chastise others for even questioning their integrity or the integrity of the bank. Am I the only one that sees this as somewhat suspicious? I donÆt know if Selene is to blame for anything. What I do know: -Selene was charged as an auditor -Selene is paid quite a bit of money to do so -She quits and a month later the failscade begins. [sarcasm]I cannot believe anyone would every question the competence or integrity of such a player [/sarcasm]. If as an auditor, when she was paid for MONTHS of work, she never caught on to the fact that more than 50% of the deposits were missing, I think I and most people should have serious questions about her competence as a bank manager, or frankly if she can dress herself in the morning. The least she could do is seriously address the question instead of insulting the questioner or side-stepping. Flame as much as you want, points are valid. Besides, I suppose my humor is lost in translation.
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.10.20 02:34:00 - [186] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Rampant hostility Cripes man, what's with all the anger and hostility towards everyone disagreeing with you? Things going badly at home or something?
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2009.10.20 02:56:00 - [187] Originally by: Solisk Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Rampant hostility Cripes man, what's with all the anger and hostility towards everyone disagreeing with you? Things going badly at home or something? I respond to hostility with hostility. Besides, I think you might be reading anger into my words without me trying to put it there. -GV
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.20 07:47:00 - [188] Quote: VV proves that persistence is most important in EVE, above intelligence, common sense, or integrity. Thanks for that lesson VV. As to your point, I am not claiming she is directly responsible, I am asking that she be held accountable for her part in the failscade Let me have a primer for you: unlike RL, no one can do anything to Selene or even to Ricdic. No one. They will keep posting their initiatives, that will be good or bad (and market discounts everything in price, including economic proposals). They will keep posting and people will keep want to join them, despite scarecrows crying foul. Because for some reason there's a demand for banks, a demand for "someone that does something" beyond whining. If you don't like it, you can go and mourn in the RP forum, there's NO common sense or integrity in a market or market related forums. Just money and business. Money and not you or me or Selene are the judge that makes markets move. You keep at beating on those who did not disappear and are trying to build something new or different. Thru massive trial and error, but they try. This is the step you won't go beyond, and take the too much comfortable seat of ambulance chaser. As for integrity, prove I am stealing the tens of billions I had held as collateral or STFU. Quote: Maybe if the both of you (Dzil and VV) could kiss these peopleÆs asses a little bit more they might accept you. Watching the lot of you defend these people is like watching a puppy go back to its owner after the owner beat the crap out it still wanting to be loved and accepted. It is just pathetic frankly I have not to answer to your pathetic claims. I want to setup a secondary market (as in the RL definition of secondary market) which is hard enough as is. Selene is the medium that could help me, I am not wedding her. They work on a new site, I try to tell them hints how it's done IRL. I have not even got 1 ISK for doing so. But wait, I suppose that having long breath plans is beyond your comprehension. Cry me 2 rivers. Quote: Am I the only one that sees this as somewhat suspicious? I donÆt know if Selene is to blame for anything. What I do know: -Selene was charged as an auditor -Selene is paid quite a bit of money to do so -She quits and a month later the failscade begins So, let's see: someone is charged as auditor but leaves because it's just pointless (proof is how long is Ray taking to even begin to understand the intricacies in EBANK accounts). Like Shar did. At the same time, she leads a very successful EOH activity. Continued...5 minutes timer at work - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.20 07:58:00 - [189] This TOTALLY means Selene is bad and will suck and steal all, right? It's set in stone proof, innit? I mean, who does not see it's all a plan, and black dressed men are going to take us in an area 51 facility? I mean, you got her API keys and fairly calculated profit graphs that clearly point out how it's all a failure, right? Or is that hot air that I see? The market will judge, not me or you. You are not relevant (nor am I, nor Selene is), the market is the little god or MD. If Selene attracts interest, good for her. It's not like critics will suddenly stop having a watchful eye. Quote: If as an auditor, when she was paid for MONTHS of work, she never caught on to the fact that more than 50% of the deposits were missing, I think I and most people should have serious questions about her competence as a bank manager, or frankly if she can dress herself in the morning As auditor she got circumvented by someone smarter than them all: Ricdic. I can't prove it because I don't have any API keys, but my gut feeling is positive that he created a "synthetic environment" where disorder was due to a long term plan. A RL enterpreneur I know did the same: he built a credible reality where all his associated and workers believed but it was a 5 years long term plan to an huge fraud. Imho Ricdic used them all (the RL economic excuse is kinda... weak. Like General Newbold's epic computer failure). Selene happened to be there and has been outdone, outplayed, put in a soup where nothing was clear. This does not mean Selene is a sh!t person or dishonest though (that is what you believe). There's always someone taller or bigger than you, and that one happened to found EBANK and to use a lot of "star names" to make it more credible. To be frank I don't care if Selene could not keep head onto Ricdic, because that's not the quality needed to hold a succesful EvE activity. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.10.20 13:21:00 - [190] Originally by: "GV" Originally by: "Dzil" Typically, I'd want to disagree with GV first just on principle, and second because he's being an ass. I donÆt mind the personal insults Dzil, especially from someone like you or VV. That's good, because it wasn't really meant as an insult, or even a direct address to you. You had a good point about Selene's history having some dirt on it: after the whole Mr. H surprise I think waiting until that audit clears/nails the rest of the directors in ebank is due diligence to investing further money in them. Unfortunately, by being a complete ass about it, you erode that position by associating it with belligerence and unyielding hostility. Which brings us to: Originally by: "GV" Originally by: "Dzil" In the current picture drawn by ebank's directors, (which may improve with their promised upcoming announcement) there is an undisclosed failure by ebank management to properly account for the funds which lead to a sudden freeze of 2+ trillion in EVE assets. Since then e-bank has found a few BoD members guilty of either negligence or fraud and has kicked them off the board; however they have not yet cleared anyone as innocent, including Selene. If Selene is confident she'll come away clean from ebank's audit, she should certainly continue to vest her time in this. But I would be very cautious about investing any money in this until ebank is able to account for its remaining losses. Maybe if the both of you (Dzil and VV) could kiss these peopleÆs asses a little bit more ... You sound illiterate calling me an ass kisser while quoting that block of text. But please: enlighten me how you got to that conclusion. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Johnny ReeRee The ReeRee Brigade	Posted - 2009.10.20 15:29:00 - [191] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: Johnny ReeRee There is no assurance Selene can make that this thing won't be a disaster. The mechanisms like the one Mr. Horizontal used to rip-off EBANK are completely invisible to investors who have absolutely no ability to gauge the risk -- and ZERO recourse if it happens. So there's an unknown probability of total loss, the demonstrated failure of every single comparable enterprise -- including the ones Selene was involved with, and absolutely no safety net or punishment mechanism. Investing here is simply not rational. But, if you really want to role-play Investment Tycoon (zomg!), knock yourself out. I noticed you like to add inane observations here and there. If investing here is not rational and role playing is out of question, what about you go and post on something like Facebook or something? Hmmm... Are you aware there are markets in Eve that do not involve either player-run banks or player-run corporations? It appears you aren't. Where might be a good place to discuss markets? How about...a Market Discussion forum? Perhaps the banking role-players can move on to some other forum. I suggest Crime & Punishment. ----------------- Join the ReeRee Brigade!
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.20 16:51:00 - [192] Quote: Hmmm... Are you aware there are markets in Eve that do not involve either player-run banks or player-run corporations? It appears you aren't. Where might be a good place to discuss markets? How about...a Market Discussion forum? So you ask for player run IPOs and bonds that happily default and cause drama and RP like banks? Or for people creating involving discussions at how trade goods used to sell well? Or about noobs posting because the one market they ever watched is being manipulated? Or what? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2009.10.20 21:57:00 - [193] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha nerdrage Secondary markets exist because of nothing other than trust in this game. TRUST is what drives the EVE secondary market. I think that where a person is proposing a bank, after being involved in the collosal failscade of another bank, is quite relevent to the discussion. As always VV, you read some random argument into someone's post and then argue against it. Generally, that person never made that argument. There is a nice, simple summary of my posts for you. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha So, let's see: someone is charged as auditor but leaves because it's just pointless (proof is how long is Ray taking to even begin to understand the intricacies in EBANK accounts). Like Shar did. Time matters VV. Selene could claim she couldn't make a complete audit of EBANK. That is fine, but if her level of competence is so low that she cannot see the "slight" discrepency of 60% of deposits missing I think there should be questions of her competency, integrity, or both. She did, after all, accept an decent EBANK salary. If she cannot uncover 60% discrepency between actual assets and what is on paper during all the time she was an "auditor" at EBANK, then I do not think anyone should trust her with anything. Flame on! -GV
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2009.10.20 22:13:00 - [194] Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 20/10/2009 22:15:01 Eve ate my post in response to you Dzil. I guess I don't care enough to retype the whole of it. Of course what you said was directed at me and a plain reading of the language would point towards it being an insult. If you do not mean to insult, you shouldn't write insults. Some actions deserve hostility. What EBANK has done to its depositors and continues to do to its depositors is unexcusable. You are right, maybe I should wait for Ray to finish his full audit of the situation before I so boldly accuse them all of incompetence or worse. Obviously, I think most should question an investigation performed by people with a clear incentive to not find any misdeeds, negligence or otherwise, of the people currently still sitting on the BoD or ones that left on good terms. I am not claiming that it will be false, but think it people should understand it for what it is. Originally by: Dzil You sound illiterate calling me an ass kisser while quoting that block of text. But please: enlighten me how you got to that conclusion. Because my entire perception of you is formed by those two paragraphs, amiright? -GV
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.10.20 22:16:00 - [195] You can all stop being ridiculous in our thread anytime now, thanks =D Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Selene could claim she couldn't make a complete audit of EBANK. That is fine, but if her level of competence is so low that she cannot see the "slight" discrepency of 60% of deposits missing I think there should be questions of her competency, integrity, or both. She did, after all, accept an decent EBANK salary. If she cannot uncover 60% discrepency between actual assets and what is on paper during all the time she was an "auditor" at EBANK, then I do not think anyone should trust her with anything. Two things. First, I posted the full story on what happened with the audit in the very same original EBANK threads that you were trolling. You didn't take the time to do anything other than hurl insults then, so why would now be any different? I don't have nor care to reiterate things for those who can't be arsed to read. I don't even do this for my customers (I tell them to go read the damn website). To give you the gist: Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Selene could claim she couldn't make a complete audit of EBANK. This is precisely what I stated both to the EBANK board when I resigned, and to the public when the original Ricdic issue happened. The record-keeping was abysmal to non-existent, and without ability to get direction or to give meaningful direction, I quit. Second, you really shouldn't focus on that "significant EBANK salary" as it makes your entire argument pretty shoddy. I'm among the lowest paid on that list, primarily because I quit once before due to inactivity and other than selling ads and my attempted audit, my activity consisted of minor tellering and yelling at Ricdic back in early '08 before I decided he was hopeless, and more or less went inactive. That salary is a pittance, and rightly so. If the current EBANK cared and desired to ask for it back, I would gladly hand that over.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.10.20 22:25:00 - [196] Additionally! This thread will probably be closed soon since we're still waiting for launch and we'll make a new one at that time. Bumping this one constantly is probably a bit confusing. If you want to continue this elsewhere, I suggest another thread and/or in-game. If you cry enough we could even make another pre-launch thread and link this one, but I reeeeeally don't want to update this one or do that yet =P
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2009.10.20 22:42:00 - [197] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste You can all stop being ridiculous in our thread anytime now, thanks =D Two things. First, I posted the full story on what happened with the audit in the very same original EBANK threads that you were trolling. You didn't take the time to do anything other than hurl insults then, so why would now be any different? I don't have nor care to reiterate things for those who can't be arsed to read. I don't even do this for my customers (I tell them to go read the damn website). To give you the gist: Thank you for responding. IÆm sorry I didnÆt read 20+ pages of posts diligently enough to find a couple paragraphs. Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Second, you really shouldn't focus on that "significant EBANK salary" as it makes your entire argument pretty shoddy. I'm among the lowest paid on that list, primarily because I quit once before due to inactivity and other than selling ads and my attempted audit, my activity consisted of minor tellering and yelling at Ricdic back in early '08 before I decided he was hopeless, and more or less went inactive. That salary is a pittance, and rightly so. If the current EBANK cared and desired to ask for it back, I would gladly hand that over. Do you think the relative position of your salary as compared to other employees is relevant? I think my main point is that your were paid to do an audit and your salary was not some nominal sum. How do you defend your inability to detect 1.4T isk (approx. 60% of the net asset value of the bank)? I think the claim that the records were not there isnÆt enough of an excuse to completely invalidate my question. I think Do you think you have any responsibility for what happened at EBANK? If not, who are all the people you think were at fault. If so, what do you think you could have done better and will do in this to insure against the failscade?
Reilly Duvolle	Posted - 2009.10.20 22:47:00 - [198] Another bank attempt. Wow. After the debackles of failbanks in EVE, I'd really thought that people would wisen up. Trusting other people with your ISK in a system with no authority to intervene against banks not upholing their part of the bargain, is like jumping out of airplanes without a parachute. Banks in EVE are scams. Period. And they will remain scams until CCP devise a system which can allow for a proper banking system to be established.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:58:00 - [199] Quote: Secondary markets exist because of nothing other than trust in this game. They exist because people see money to be made and investors actually trust little enough to sometimes ask for auditing and almost always for collateral and / or lockdown. That's all the trust is in the secondary markets you got. Quote: Selene could claim she couldn't make a complete audit of EBANK. That is fine, but if her level of competence is so low that she cannot see the "slight" discrepency of 60% of deposits missing I think there should be questions of her competency, integrity, or both What if having to deal with a top scammer made the accounting so nebulous and inconsistent that the person would try and give up? After all I don't see Selene certifying EBANK's wellness. On the contrary, when 1 and then 2 auditors quit and show a white flag that is an horripilant sign. As for the discrepancies, it's like RL trading: all are oh so gods at seeing all the signs that made the trends go up and down. But getting them when they developed is the hard part. I recall pretty well being one of the voices calling for transparency while a wall of laugther was thrown around because "LOL the unknown nub, these are the elite GODS, how do you dare to say the king is naked?" I don't recall you nor the other ambulance chasers. Quote: I didnÆt read 20+ pages of posts diligently enough to find a couple paragraphs So you never stop mudding people's reputation around when you CBA to even read the relevant thread? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.21 01:04:00 - [200] I really think what we need more of is syndicates of the older, richer, players making pooled investments into ventures. And less of this bank stuff.
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2009.10.21 02:06:00 - [201] Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 21/10/2009 02:09:36 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 21/10/2009 01:07:41 Originally by: Gabriel Virtus pure genius They exist because people see money to be made and investors actually trust little enough to sometimes ask for auditing and almost always for collateral and / or lockdown. That's all the trust in the secondary markets you got. In all honesty VV, are you really arguing this or is it a joke? Secondary markets only exist through trust. Profit incentives are irrelevant without the trust to physically (in game obviously) exchange anything to anyone with the promise that you will get it back. Trust is necessary for all aspects of secondary market transactions. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: Gabriel Virtus A few more tidbits of genius What if having to deal with a top scammer made the accounting so nebulous and inconsistent that the person would try and give up? After all I don't see Selene certifying EBANK's wellness. On the contrary, when 1 and then 2 auditors quit and show a white flag that is an horripilant sign. As for the discrepancies, it's like RL trading: all are oh so gods at seeing all the signs that made the trends go up and down. But getting them when they developed is the hard part. I recall pretty well being one of the voices calling for transparency while a wall of laugther was thrown around because "LOL the unknown nub, these are the elite GODS, how do you dare to say the king is naked?" I don't recall you nor the other ambulance chasers. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha So you never stop mudding people's reputation around when you CBA to even read the relevant thread? Maybe you should take your own advice. If you cannot detect that 60% of the paper assets are missing and you are still accepting a salary as an auditor, then you are a complete incompetent fool. Do you think that an auditor that cannot detect that 1.4T isk is missing (60% of assets) should be allowed to continue to audit without question? -GV

CCP Applebabe	Posted - 2009.10.21 06:18:00 - [202] Locked as user requested. Applebabe Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us


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