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Mahoui Kauie	Posted - 2009.08.12 08:47:00 - [91] Originally by: Omnitron Alpha ty all for the fun read. I'm sure the devs all had a good laugh and went back to playing poker online... I sincerely hope not!! At least not with people posting things like this: Originally by: waruiushiro "....There you have it: noobs are a resource to be consumed. If that doesn't sit well, then either change the way you play the game or change the game you play...." That is the dev's clientele he is talking about!! How do you think they feel about that? tell the new cleints that want to pay them for thier hard and good work to go play a different game? And to Waruiushiro: Moo! this cow bites back, and it left a bad taste in the mouth.
Shooty McBangbang	Posted - 2009.08.12 12:44:00 - [92] Two issues 1. The cost of a wardec is far too low. Any numpty in a 1+alt corp. can pay 1Misk and effectively lock down a larger corp with too great an ease. It should have a higher financial impact, in the same way a full political declaration of war is different to just mooning someone :) 2. Non-mutual agression. What difference (if any) does it make if one side doesn't accept?
Ned Black	Posted - 2009.08.12 13:30:00 - [93] Originally by: Tereliss Verr While not really disagreeing with what you say, although in reality of this world that we call EvE and in any war ever fought anywhere, you have to use what ever tactic's you can use, avalible to you at that time, the idea of a war is to be able to cause more cost to the other side, now if you can reduce your cost by docking or remote repping, albiet non sportman like, you will do it, you can't blame people for using what is readily avalible to them. Your sugestions however do hold merit, but if you are a big nasty merc corp of seasoned PvP experts against an industrial corp, with out the docking or repping tactics they don't stand a chance, well that's their problem I hear you shout, but is it their problem that you can't kill them before they dock or the that you can't break their tank when being aided by a neut player? I think that that maybe your problem, all I'm saying is that people will do anything to survive, be it right or wrong. I did like your sugestion though I would just want anyone helping one side during a war battle would become part of that war, no matter if they are part of the original alliances/corps that started the war or not. If they try to repair an aggressed war target they should get a message saying that this action will bring them into the war and that the other side will see them as war targets until the war ends. From there it is up to the pilot to decide if he wish to do this. If he does that then he will be a target until the war ends.
Spectras Waradian	Posted - 2009.08.12 13:35:00 - [94] Actually, yeah the neutral repping chars is the only problem. Not being able to open fire on people helping your opponent feels just... wrong. It's not unfair though, as both sides can do it.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 14:23:00 - [95] First of all - to the OP, yes - the wardec system is busted. Ignore all the posters who go on about 'it's fine' et al. That just means that it's fine for them. CCP has already identified that the wardec system is busted and is not working as intended. As it is, it's a pay to grief system (CCP's words not mine) and is on the docket to get revamped. Check out the notes from the first CSM for more on this. There are some good notes on how to deal with this in the posts above, btw. The best one being - create a private channel with a password for you and your corpmates and then all leave your corp. Maybe leave an alt or two in the corp to keep it alive. Happily go about your business as the 'l33t' gankers sit outside stations waiting for targets that will never undock shelling out cash for a wardec that is pointless. When they drop the war, rejoin your corp as soon as their kill timer expires. If they restart it just do exactly the same thing again. Eventually they will go bother someone else (and by all means feel free to check to see who they're at war with and pass on the advice to others) or start sending you hate mails which can be fun. If you could fight them, I would suggest you do. That can actually be fun, just remember to only fight with what you can easily afford to lose. One of my first corps was wardecced in this way by someone who thought they were l33t enough. He had two people in his corp and we had around 40. He thought he was good enough - he wasn't and wound up playing station games with his one battleship refusing to fight when we had him surrounded. In the end I'm afraid his intent to grief wound up turned on him and he got griefed. We actually felt a bit bad by it at the end and tried to help him once the war was done. The guys wardeccing you are 'gaming' the current broken system. Feel free to do the same as mentioned above. When it's fixed, hopefully this kind of stupidity will stop. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Fourty Niner	Posted - 2009.08.13 02:18:00 - [96] Edited by: Fourty Niner on 13/08/2009 02:21:50 We could have a "protected by concorod" corp stat, whereby Corps can "optout" of corp wars for a tax of (say) 50% on all transactions. In fact, although I started to post it as a joke, the more I think about it the more is seems like a good idea. If we take ops oringinal claim that corps dont WAR each other in real life, and add the proviso that this is because the police are paid for by the corps taxes, then the anwser to him, is cos he dont pay ANYTHING for state protection. http://BIGLottery.BIG-EVE.com
Shooty McBangbang	Posted - 2009.08.13 12:13:00 - [97] I agree with Jarvis on this one that it is a pay to grief system. Anyone can afford to start a war by "paying concord to turn a blind eye". Simple fix. Bidding. Corp A pays 1m for a wardec. Corp B pays 1m (or more) to cancel it. Want to continue the war dec? Up the ante by another million. Whoever pays the most get's the nod and the war kicks off (24 hours after the last bid) or doesn't. Sorted. :)
Fourty Niner	Posted - 2009.08.13 14:32:00 - [98] Originally by: Shooty McBangbang I agree with Jarvis on this one that it is a pay to grief system. Anyone can afford to start a war by "paying concord to turn a blind eye". Simple fix. Bidding. Corp A pays 1m for a wardec. Corp B pays 1m (or more) to cancel it. Want to continue the war dec? Up the ante by another million. Whoever pays the most get's the nod and the war kicks off (24 hours after the last bid) or doesn't. Sorted. :) The problem with this, is that an industral corp is nearly always gonna have more money. I honestly think the best way is to penalise any corp who want to be a corp but not open to war decs http://BIGLottery.BIG-EVE.com
Tereliss Verr	Posted - 2009.08.13 17:08:00 - [99] Originally by: Ned Black Originally by: Tereliss Verr While not really disagreeing with what you say, although in reality of this world that we call EvE and in any war ever fought anywhere, you have to use what ever tactic's you can use, avalible to you at that time, the idea of a war is to be able to cause more cost to the other side, now if you can reduce your cost by docking or remote repping, albiet non sportman like, you will do it, you can't blame people for using what is readily avalible to them. Your sugestions however do hold merit, but if you are a big nasty merc corp of seasoned PvP experts against an industrial corp, with out the docking or repping tactics they don't stand a chance, well that's their problem I hear you shout, but is it their problem that you can't kill them before they dock or the that you can't break their tank when being aided by a neut player? I think that that maybe your problem, all I'm saying is that people will do anything to survive, be it right or wrong. I did like your sugestion though I would just want anyone helping one side during a war battle would become part of that war, no matter if they are part of the original alliances/corps that started the war or not. If they try to repair an aggressed war target they should get a message saying that this action will bring them into the war and that the other side will see them as war targets until the war ends. From there it is up to the pilot to decide if he wish to do this. If he does that then he will be a target until the war ends. I agree, but at the moment that is a tactic to be exploited, I agree with you totally if someone helps a WT then they should become a WT and their entire corp/ alliance, that way it would diswade them from helping in the first place.
Tereliss Verr	Posted - 2009.08.13 17:14:00 - [100] Originally by: Fourty Niner Originally by: Shooty McBangbang I agree with Jarvis on this one that it is a pay to grief system. Anyone can afford to start a war by "paying concord to turn a blind eye". Simple fix. Bidding. Corp A pays 1m for a wardec. Corp B pays 1m (or more) to cancel it. Want to continue the war dec? Up the ante by another million. Whoever pays the most get's the nod and the war kicks off (24 hours after the last bid) or doesn't. Sorted. :) The problem with this, is that an industral corp is nearly always gonna have more money. I honestly think the best way is to penalise any corp who want to be a corp but not open to war decs Why should a corp be penalized just because they dont wish to fight you? seems rather archaic to me.
Fourty Niner	Posted - 2009.08.13 19:40:00 - [101] Originally by: Tereliss Verr Originally by: Fourty Niner Originally by: Shooty McBangbang I agree with Jarvis on this one that it is a pay to grief system. Anyone can afford to start a war by "paying concord to turn a blind eye". Simple fix. Bidding. Corp A pays 1m for a wardec. Corp B pays 1m (or more) to cancel it. Want to continue the war dec? Up the ante by another million. Whoever pays the most get's the nod and the war kicks off (24 hours after the last bid) or doesn't. Sorted. :) The problem with this, is that an industral corp is nearly always gonna have more money. I honestly think the best way is to penalise any corp who want to be a corp but not open to war decs Why should a corp be penalized just because they dont wish to fight you? seems rather archaic to me. Not really. If a group pays Taxes than thats the group the government will support and protect in a war. Under this proposial, a corp has the option to STAY under the auspise of condord and pay a % of income for protection. So a weak corp with low PVP or lack of isk to buy PVP pays for state protection, (I know I said 50%, but lets say 25%). This would allow new corps to get started, they know they are protected from WAR decs, but equaly that they are not gonna make isk at a rate. Then they can become Non protected, and spend their own isk on protection. Effectivly creating volunteer PVP. http://BIGLottery.BIG-EVE.com
Ollie Cromwell Caldari Seniors Clan	Posted - 2009.08.14 11:29:00 - [102] Originally by: Fourty Niner Originally by: Shooty McBangbang I agree with Jarvis on this one that it is a pay to grief system. Anyone can afford to start a war by "paying concord to turn a blind eye". Simple fix. Bidding. Corp A pays 1m for a wardec. Corp B pays 1m (or more) to cancel it. Want to continue the war dec? Up the ante by another million. Whoever pays the most get's the nod and the war kicks off (24 hours after the last bid) or doesn't. Sorted. :) The problem with this, is that an industral corp is nearly always gonna have more money. I honestly think the best way is to penalise any corp who want to be a corp but not open to war decs IMHO, the fore-mentioned corp in fact does fight you, but not only on your terms... They use the 'weapons' they have which would be money ... It's just a different way of fighting ... What you mean is that you would only like them to be able to fight them on your terms (aka guns & missiles). ----------
Dimitryy Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.14 11:51:00 - [103] Originally by: Vars Shaylo Get killed, it's fun, and no, you're not in a corporation, you're in a game. This. ------------------------------------------ Jack Blackstone > Dimitryy I hope you die.
Mahoui Kauie	Posted - 2009.08.21 04:13:00 - [104] More on Wardec Changes So here is what I have gathered so far: Make no changes: done, but with a broken part of the game left alone. Quick and easy; little to no work load: remove wardecs. (not the best idea, but an idea. I feel this had to be mentioned, as the above idea, which has been defacto since it was implemented, is still in effect; as preposterous as that may seem.) Do a flat ISK increase on wardecs. Not so quick or easy: Separate corporations from "war units". which would only apply to being in high sec areas only, low and 0.0 are free for all, that is a given. Implement an exponential or variable ISK increase on wardecs, based upon opposing parties: ISK ~ Skill points ~ member count ~ kill ratio ~ corp/aliance ~ ...(other variables?) with an exponential cost for concurrent wardecs times the formulated fee 1 thru 3 or 4 or however many you think you can afford to run concurrently (ie: formulated cost for 1 wardec, then the formulated cost for wardec times 2 for the 2nd concurrent wardec and on from there, just like the ranking for training levels.) Use that formula or a certain number of those variables for the aggressor to initiate the wardec AND the aggressed to stop the wardec or hire CCP for a close proximity escort - ie they ride along side me. Preventive measures: corp/alliance that does not want to be war dec'ed at all: pay via tax or what not, a weekly/monthly sum to CCP (read as the dev's coffee fund) to simply forego the wardec altogether. Amount to be determined via the above mentioned formula, that has not yet been entirely worked out. Just as a reminder; I am not asking for people to tell me how to spend my free time; or how to play the game; I AM ASKING for your THOUGHTS on WarDecs, and changes that system may or may not need, as you see it, in YOUR opinion.
Chin Jin	Posted - 2009.08.21 09:00:00 - [105] Concord wants conflicts resolved quickly and without too much hassle. How about in addition to a flat sum of the wardec, you would have to pay concord for each kill in highsec? Also, continuing the war for prolonged periods should have an twofold increase in cost of the flat sum.
Kurfin	Posted - 2009.08.21 11:46:00 - [106] Maybe give new corps a wardec shield for say 3 months to get their act together, if they don't have a plan by then for dealing with wardecs they are doomed anyway.
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.08.21 11:55:00 - [107] Edited by: Rashmika Clavain on 21/08/2009 11:55:36 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom First of all - to the OP, yes - the wardec system is busted. Ignore all the posters who go on about 'it's fine' et al. That just means that it's fine for them. Really? Well the flip side to that is that it's only busted for those who don't like it. You're just saying the same thing but from the opposite side of the coin Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom CCP has already identified that the wardec system is busted and is not working as intended. As it is, it's a pay to grief system (CCP's words not mine) and is on the docket to get revamped. Check out the notes from the first CSM for more on this. Have you got a linky to CCP stating this please? Removed. Please keep your EVE signature related to your EVE persona and not that of a real life politician. Navigator
Torpedo moot	Posted - 2009.08.21 12:57:00 - [108] The war declaration system is just fine, its the cost of wars that are a joke. it should cost a lot more to wage war and wars should take in to account war corporations standing's. why is it that the only faction that matter for warfare is concord, well yes they are the eve universe's answer to to a twisted version of united nations/us/nato force, but they have no soverignity in empire space , it's not concord that lose income on lost trade from wars and that prolly why you can bribe them in to corruption with a candy bar and two stamps a week. The cost of being allowed to break the law should be 20 to 50 times higher than for today, and before you go on with no ability to defend themselves and the no purpose or leadership, remember this without the carebears in empire space most of us would go to our daily wars in our rookie ships since there would be no other supply in eve. So before you start, stop it. no need to declare for the world your uber because you can shoot straight with a bunch of electronic aids bot my and your character have no idea how work and even less clue how to build it. your not a genious cause you know how to fly your ships, the one that built it are!
Mahoui Kauie	Posted - 2009.08.21 23:53:00 - [109] Originally by: Rashmika Clavain Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom CCP has already identified that the wardec system is busted and is not working as intended. As it is, it's a pay to grief system (CCP's words not mine) and is on the docket to get revamped. Check out the notes from the first CSM for more on this. Have you got a linky to CCP stating this please? http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=819325
Cerebrus Moronicus	Posted - 2009.08.22 07:04:00 - [110] After looking at some of the ideas posted for changing war decs I've seen a problem. One of the most often quoted "legitimate" reasons for war decs is to disrupt a corporation's or alliance's trade/transport routes and isk-making abilities. Giving any corp an opt-out would completely ruin this aspect. An alt corp doing trade and research with plenty of money filtered down from the large alliances, make that any alliances, would be completely immune. An increase in corp v corp wardec fees wouldn't be so much of a problem, but there is (imo) already an issue with the fact that corp v alliance fees are so high, as high as alliance v alliance. This can be exploited by having a single corp in an alliance forcing people to pay alliance fees to dec a single corp. My main's corp of 15 has recently decced one such single-corp alliance of 420 members. Again I see the the topic of neutral remote reppers brought up. What a shame these people aren't automatically flagged to you and shootable the moment they do this... oh wait, they are. If neutral repping is not considered a valid tactic, some may argue that neutral scouts are not either. Bah! Thats just rubbish. Its a tactic available to absolutely everybody, whether it be in game or IRL. Unfortunately I have no real ideas myself, I kinda like the way it works now. I do know that it would be a very difficult job to find a happy compromise that cant be exploited. So you think you're being griefed? Are you sure the war isn't being paid for by someone who doesn't like you? Maybe you're selling things in the same area as somebody else, or mining "their" roids. Or maybe you are right. Never, ever bring in any kind of opt-out system. I believe this would be against everything Eve is about. Get in a ship and shoot back, or use some of that isk you've been mining for to pay someone to do it for you.
Eelis Kiy Gallente Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2009.08.22 08:22:00 - [111] Edited by: Eelis Kiy on 22/08/2009 08:24:14 Edited by: Eelis Kiy on 22/08/2009 08:22:39 There are 2 things you should do. 1st. Realise that Eve is a pvp game. The second you undock in Eve, you consent to pvp. It doesn't matter where you are or what your play preference is. You can be shot at any time by any one. High-sec is NOT a pvp free area for you to prance about in with your pants down. Get used to it. 2nd. Accept that you are now at war and start doing something about it. Having been on the receiving end of a war dec whilst a new player and in a carebear corp that had nothing to do with pvp I feel your pain. But you cannot expect the game mechanics to change around you now that you can't afk pick your nose in space when you feel like it. You need to see the bigger picture. There ARE things you can do to help your situation. Whining about it is not one of them. Infact it could make your situation worse. Some ideas for you: - Hire a corp to war dec your war deccers. - Contact the CEO of the war dec corp and open negotiations. They may drop the dec for a fee or they may have some other reason for war deccing you. Word of advice, getting into a ***** fit with them will not do you any favours. EMBRACE THE GAME and start some diplomacy. - Ignore them. Yes thats right Ignore them. They want your easy kills, so don't give them any. Play it safe, even if you have to sit tight in stations for a while. Don't engage in local smack chat with them. Pretend they are not there. If they get bored they will go away. - Start fighting back. Get out your cheap ships and have a pop at them. Yeah you will probably get your ass kicked, but you will learn a few things and omg... you might actually start to enjoy it. Are your war dec corp at war with anyone else that would be willing to join forces with you? If after the war is over you want to continue your peacefull life consider opening diplomatic relations with other corps who are based in your area, having no friends in Eve in fail. Having a close friendship with a pvp corp could mean you have someone to war dec and fight on your behalf should another dec come in. In return you could supply them with ships/equipment/help in some other area. (You don't have to be an an "official alliance" for this to work). Alternatively if after the war is over you have a taste for blood. Get your self some pvp experience, then next time someone bites you you will be ready to bite back. The game works. You just have to learn how to play.
Felix Jugo	Posted - 2009.08.22 09:21:00 - [112] Quote: They are CORPORATIONS, they do NOT engage in WARS. How about the East India Company?
Ganja Ree Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.08.22 17:25:00 - [113] Originally by: Felix Jugo Quote: They are CORPORATIONS, they do NOT engage in WARS. How about the East India Company? Oh those were not wars. Heavens no, those were very proactive security measures. Corporations going to war? Surely thou jest. Nations go to war sir. Corporations protect their bottom line. By any means. Of course, "Retroactively and proactively protecting corporate interests by the enforced retirement of hostile corporate assets and/or employees using unconventional and synergical countermeasures" doesn't fit in the title bar, so Concord just writes War-dec, pockets the paperwork fees and calls it a day. Quote: I feel, I am, I am not. Am I?
Vocco	Posted - 2009.08.22 18:18:00 - [114] Originally by: Wil Stryker If someone can pay concord to turn a blind eye (war dec) then why cant the corp that has been war dec'd pay concord to invalidate the war? There should be a fee for paying concord as there is about war dec'ing a corp. example: corp A war dec's corp B : 2 mil per week Corp B pays concord to invalidate the war : 2 * initial war dec fee (4 mil) Corp A really wants to war dec Corp B : 2 * cancellation fee ( 8 mil) Corp B really doesn't want to fight a war and pay concord again : 2 * war dec fee ( 16 mil) and so on until one of the corps can't afford to pay the war dec or cancellation fee to concord. Love this idea. I think if you are war dec'd you should be able to buy out that contract, and the two Corps, can bid for the right to either not fight or to fight. Who ever really wants it more will win. At least then it would not just be about the physical war it would be a finacial thing too.
Bomberlocks Minmatar Icarus Prime	Posted - 2009.08.23 16:27:00 - [115] To the OP: Either go fight them in a few frigs that you will lose (remember that you lose your implants when you get podded), or, if you don't have a jump clone and don't have enough isk to replace implants etc, then either ignore them or get a throwaway neutral alt to sit around the station and smack talk them the whole day while your main character carries on skill training. It all depends on you. Ignoring them might be the best way to get them to stop, as the psychology of bullies depends on having something to bully and they die a slow death with no reaction, but it can be fun laughing at them in local while they sit around camping a character that is not going to undock the station any time soon. The best thing, if you ask me, though, is to have the insight that EVE is a game that is biased towards long-time subscribers who have been shooting internet space ships for years while the guys in Reykjavik sniff coke off whores' tits with the money they make off the same players. So, either set-up a long term skill to train and take a break from eve, and when you come back a month later (if you can actually care enough to come back, that is) the war dec'ers wil almost certainly be gone, or, just rant here as you have done, and leave the game. It won't be in CCP's interests to see too many n00bs leaving (after all, fast women and drugs are expensive) so they'll eventually do something about it.
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2009.08.23 17:05:00 - [116] I am in a corporation. Let me say that again, a CORPORATION. When was the last time you witnessed, or even heard of McD's gearing up, fighting their way across the street to blow up BK's? you haven't. Because...YES! that's right! They don't! They are CORPORATIONS, they do NOT engage in WARS. you obviously haven't spent quality time in some of the 3rd world holes on this planet.
Isareal Altara	Posted - 2009.08.23 22:03:00 - [117] Originally by: Ehranavaar I am in a corporation. Let me say that again, a CORPORATION. When was the last time you witnessed, or even heard of McD's gearing up, fighting their way across the street to blow up BK's? you haven't. Because...YES! that's right! They don't! They are CORPORATIONS, they do NOT engage in WARS. you obviously haven't spent quality time in some of the 3rd world holes on this planet. de beers!
Mahoui Kauie	Posted - 2009.08.24 07:11:00 - [118] Originally by: Mahoui Kauie "... When was the last time you witnessed, or even heard of...." Originally by: Corduroy Rab Forgive me if someone has pointed this out already. After reading the OPs first paragraph I remembered a time I was in New Mexico...anyhow...this was brought to mind Lincoln County War Originally by: Felix Jugo Quote: They are CORPORATIONS, they do NOT engage in WARS. How about the East India Company? I was unaware of either of these. I did read up on them, briefly, and in the Lincon County War, that is 130+Years ago - The East India Company - is 250+ years ago... Yes, these companies did in fact engage in war(s). I stand corrected. Thank You for bringing them to my attention. Now if I may draw our attention back to the topic - THOUGHTS on WarDec Changes...
Mahoui Kauie	Posted - 2009.08.24 08:12:00 - [119] Including some of the others ideas people posted on changing the wardec system: WarDec IF possible: Agressed is older than 3 months.(or other time frame - not a bad idea- can be based upon account age, skillpoint or something to avoid abuse) Agressed has paid the No War Dec Me Fee. WarDec Fee = Agressor vs. Agressed Skill Points Member Count Kill Ratios Corp or Alliance WarDec Count(s) Length of Wardec(s) Agressed pays an opt out fee; based upon the above variables. In all fairness these ideas have not all been thought out in thier entirity; they are a collection of possible variables that may be used to give the wardec system a positive change.
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.08.24 16:37:00 - [120] I like the war dec system the way it is. If some one day old character in a one day old corp besmirches my epeen-honor in local I want the satisfaction of grinding his corp to dust. You know, show em some manners. Then maybe next time they wont open their mouth in local. You want to smart mouth somebody in local then be prepared to have a command ship shoved so far up your rear you will be coughing ammo for a week. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.

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