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Why local will never be removed

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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.06 18:51:00 - [61] Originally by: Shadowsword tl,dr version: - carebear pirate: "WHAAAA, I can't roam freely in other's people empires, they are blobbing, NOT FAIR!" - random reader: "You're alone, they're ten camping that gate, why shouldn't they catch you?" - carebear pirate: "BECAUSE THEY'RE TEN! They blob! They're carebears!" Joke aside, here's the previsible consequence of just removing local: - Raomers have a field day. Because they know where the good ratting systems are, no local advantage them big time. - Ratters do a quick calculation, find out that grinding missions in empire bring decent money, without the chore of updating the scanner every 5 seconds. - 0.0 become mostly empty except in alliances peak times, pirates have the choice between wandering around without any prey in sight, or being chased by large gangs of bored pvpers. - High-sec become even more populated, null-sec even more empty. CCP doesn't want that. Translation: I'm a 0.0 carebear who's terrified of not having local to allow the use of my ratting bots. Fail more please. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Tasha Voronina Caldari Caldari Navy Reserve Force	Posted - 2009.08.06 22:37:00 - [62] Hmm, having read all the thread, it seems that, imo, the best solution would be to put 0.0 local into delayed mode and give alliances a means to putting local back into instant mode. Now, how that tool should look like is up to debate, here's what I'm thinking though: full-blown POS tower with serious fuel requirements. Has to be offlined for an hour per day. Only one can be anchored per system. Has really low hitpoints, so a single ship and/or a small gang could put it into reinforced (no intel for at least one stront cycle) within minutes (5 minutes for one cruiser is a reasonable timeframe, imo). Now, what this would give is that all you 0.0 carebears () have an early warning system, so to speak, but if your enemy is serious about attacking your space, they'll first disable your intel network, then move in their force without you noticing. Or, a single ganker () could disable the comm relay first and prey on the people in the system later. Eventually, someone will have to refuel/repair the comm relay, so at least there you have a window of opportunity. Small gang objective? Hell yeah. Helps invading forces conceal their location and numbers? Check. Works for me Discuss --- Sig will be updated shortly
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.08.07 01:20:00 - [63] Always the "It work good in W-Space" to justify the "Remove Local"... Same if W-Space != High-Sec/Low-Sec/0.0 either, as the risk to encounter someone in a wormhole is lower than a null-sec. Same 20 Thousands years in the future, stargates don't move, etc... And the "Blob" argument too... No intel means bigger blobs, as there will have bigger risks. Remember : People hate lose. Or missioning in a PVP fitted ship... Sure that all Caldari players will love that, indeed. _______ Local is fine, period.
Ecco Storm	Posted - 2009.08.07 02:41:00 - [64] I'm all for a compromise that will actually put control of local ultimately into players hands. High Sec: Status quo, empires dictate how all traffic is accounted for as they come and go. Low\Null Sec: Holding corporations and alliances ultimately dictate control of local. Switched on or off, its up to them but the gates would now be hackable by any attacking force. Gates under attack can be set to report to local commanders so they can respond. Attacking forces can now do preemptive strikes to disable the gates reporting effectively blinding their targets. In addition to blinding your enemies you can also use this as a new tool to make feints with. I think that no one will ever fully agree on what to do with local. Some folks want it kept as is for their own safety while others want it shut down so they can either pirate easier or have true sneak attacks. I agree with both sides actually. So? Put it in our hands. Let us decide. Random idea #1734 ... :\
Liz Laser Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.08.07 02:42:00 - [65] The fact that w-space is a spectacular failure that 95% of the players haven't entered this week should tell you that it would be corporate suicide for CCP to spread the game mechanics of w-space any further.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.08.07 03:06:00 - [66] Originally by: Liz Laser The fact that w-space is a spectacular failure that 95% of the players haven't entered this week should tell you that it would be corporate suicide for CCP to spread the game mechanics of w-space any further. Post the source of that statistic, assuming it's work-safe?
Liz Laser Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.08.07 03:14:00 - [67] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Liz Laser The fact that w-space is a spectacular failure that 95% of the players haven't entered this week should tell you that it would be corporate suicide for CCP to spread the game mechanics of w-space any further. Post the source of that statistic, assuming it's work-safe? It's just my impression, oh corp-mate, from discussions with pilots and from reading the forums. I suspect CCP is too embarassed to publish any stats, and when they do, it will be from week 1 of the expansion (when people didn't know w-space sucked yet), and not THIS week.
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2009.08.07 03:18:00 - [68] Originally by: King Rothgar Local is so powerful that guys in Pandemic Legion are using ratting bots in their own space so they can farm isk without even being at their computer. How do I know? Real players don't warp to a safe spot, cloak and stay there for an hour because of a neutral shuttle, bots do and I've tested it a few times. You have of course petitioned this, right? /Ben
Apurimac	Posted - 2009.08.07 03:23:00 - [69] I can't believe i'm replying to such an emo post, and this has been said before, but here goes: We all know that EVE is one of the hardest MMOs out there, let alone one of the hardest games. Its notoriously noob-unfriendly and heavily favors players who have been in it for years. We all know PVPers also have the advantage in almost any engagement with PVEers and miners, and hence removing local chat, while being a greifer's dream would make the game even harder to play and it would discourage more people from grinding it out. Even in 0.0, which is supposed to be noob-free the removal of local would make life very hard for some people and an absolute blast for others. Hence, its a major balance issue. Personally, I'd like to keep local, but i would like to see the introduction of a cloaking device that removes you from chat specifically geared towards cloaky ships of the SB/Cov Ops/recon/black ops flavor. I reckon the big reason CCP would never make the belts scannable in 0.0 is because it would overload their servers with bookmarks in the same way instas did in the old days. You could say then everytime the belts reset CCP just deletes the BMs relating to those belts but that would mean more work for them. Frankly, if you really feel like greifing hard, you could always go jihading or start an alt for that purpose. Which personally looks like good fun.
Liz Laser Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.08.07 03:28:00 - [70] Edited by: Liz Laser on 07/08/2009 03:29:20 Edited by: Liz Laser on 07/08/2009 03:28:35 Originally by: King Rothgar Local is so powerful that guys in Pandemic Legion are using ratting bots in their own space so they can farm isk without even being at their computer. How do I know? Real players don't warp to a safe spot, cloak and stay there for an hour because of a neutral shuttle, bots do and I've tested it a few times. Why wouldn't a real player do this? Real players can be just as cowardly as bots. Especially since a real player could then go get a sandwich, web surf, watch videos, etc. while waiting for you to leave.

Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.07 03:28:00 - [71] Originally by: Ben Derindar Originally by: King Rothgar Local is so powerful that guys in Pandemic Legion are using ratting bots in their own space so they can farm isk without even being at their computer. How do I know? Real players don't warp to a safe spot, cloak and stay there for an hour because of a neutral shuttle, bots do and I've tested it a few times. You have of course petitioned this, right? /Ben If he did he'd have to petition half of the 0.0 population... Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Ningishzida Amarr Continuum Crew	Posted - 2009.08.07 03:31:00 - [72] So, local needs to be removed so King Griefer can gank people easier. Ok..
Liz Laser Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.08.07 03:36:00 - [73] Edited by: Liz Laser on 07/08/2009 03:36:28 edit, made no sense without the quote. LOL.
Spurty Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.08.07 03:54:00 - [74] Originally by: Liz Laser Edited by: Liz Laser on 07/08/2009 03:38:20 Originally by: Ningishzida So, local needs to be removed so King Griefer can gank people easier. Ok.. Why should w-space be the only part of the game abandoned by the players? :-) Spread the shunning! I see whatcha did there. Removing local will just 'mildly' buff gate camps and massively kill the game as whats the point in a second account for scouting? The scenario I fear with this change is: We'll see values of character transfers tank (everyone cashes in their alts causing an excessive flood on the market), shortly followed by buddy accounts being abandoned out of lack of any really good reason to keep em. Scenario I really want to see though is 100 man fleets roaming about looking for people doing gate camps. Drop a drake on gate for bait, wait for pirates to decloak and agro, warp 99 friends on top trying their best to get on a kill mail. Rinse and repeat! Invasions of SOV holding alliances get a fantastic boost though. Imagine trying to track a fleet of 400 people, coming from 2 different directions into a system that already has 400 people in it. You'll have no idea if the ships you have scanned (pages and pages of them) are friends or foes. Be chaos. Love it! Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails i for one, like 8's that look like 9's lol
rubico1337	Posted - 2009.08.07 04:05:00 - [75] Originally by: Liz Laser Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Liz Laser The fact that w-space is a spectacular failure that 95% of the players haven't entered this week should tell you that it would be corporate suicide for CCP to spread the game mechanics of w-space any further. Post the source of that statistic, assuming it's work-safe? It's just my impression its my impression that 95% of 0.0 pilots like you are carebears. does that make it true?
rubico1337	Posted - 2009.08.07 04:06:00 - [76] Edited by: rubico1337 on 07/08/2009 04:08:22 Originally by: Liz Laser Edited by: Liz Laser on 07/08/2009 03:29:20 Edited by: Liz Laser on 07/08/2009 03:28:35 Originally by: King Rothgar Local is so powerful that guys in Pandemic Legion are using ratting bots in their own space so they can farm isk without even being at their computer. How do I know? Real players don't warp to a safe spot, cloak and stay there for an hour because of a neutral shuttle, bots do and I've tested it a few times. Why wouldn't a real player do this? why would you automate anything? so that you dont have to do the manual clicking by yourself and still get the benefit.
rubico1337	Posted - 2009.08.07 04:07:00 - [77] Edited by: rubico1337 on 07/08/2009 04:08:35 Originally by: Liz Laser Edited by: Liz Laser on 07/08/2009 03:38:20 Originally by: Ningishzida So, local needs to be removed so King Griefer can gank people easier. Ok.. Why should w-space be the only part of the game abandoned by the players? :-) Spread the shunning! it isnt, if you knew anything about wormhole space you would know that people and entire corps live out here. stop talking out your backside its making the thread smell funny
Mors Magne M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.08.07 04:33:00 - [78] The added danger of removing local would make it more fun.
King Rothgar Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.07 05:03:00 - [79] In regards to reporting bots; once upon a time I reported that there were 100+ bots in inguin. A year later they were still there. A few months ago the Chinese government threatened to put them into slave labor camps, suddenly they vanished. CCP doesn't care about bots for the most part. There is no sense in reporting them. One of my most epic suicide ganks in high sec was when my corp went and suicided 15 hulks in high sec all run by the same guy. There is no way you can control that many ships at once, he was clearly using some sort of macro. He was reported after we ganked his hulk fleet and guess what, he's got 15 hulks out there as I type this. That gives me an idea of what to do after posting this... In regards to the ultimate effects of removing local, I don't think it would result in more blobbage. It would force more emphasis on cloaky ships and I've seen that in w-space. My favorite w-space ship is the pilgrim and with good reason. Bombers with a bomb launcher can also be highly effective. I found that out as the victim. W-space is also heavily populated, you just don't notice cause they are cloaked and there is no local. Go to any class 1 through 3 wh and there will be a whole corp living there with a POS or three. Hell, I've even seen guys taking down a competitors POS in w-space. W-space is very dangerous and full of people. But you don't know who they are and that's the way they want it. In regards to all belts requiring probing, it would require a dramatic change over the current system because having 20 belts in a system that move around every 2-3 days would kill the servers. They would need to make a change like what was made in w-space, combine 20 belts into just 3 or 4. You wouldn't go to the gravitational sites (aka hidden belts) to rat, you would go there to actually mine ore. For ratting purposes you would go to combat plex's. These could be simple anomalies or the more interesting gated plex's and profession sites. Obviously their numbers and spawn rates would need to be increased since belt rats would cease to exist. Having such sites spawn randomly throughout the day would help greatly rather than having them only spawn at dt. I am opposed to giving the sov holders of any system the ability to turn on or off local at will. A POS module with huge fuel and fitting requirements would be acceptable if it only provided a snapshot every half hour or so. The idea keeping local but making cov ops cloak equipped ships able to not show up in local is a half-*ssed solution, but it's certainly better than what we've got. -----------------------------------------------------
Siona Windweaver	Posted - 2009.08.07 05:34:00 - [80] Wormhole space is an exception. Not many people visits them and only very few people actually lives in them. The randomness of the entrance point also makes it harder to find, so you'll have even less people using the same one. 0.0 on the other hand, is different. Large number of players use them, they are fixed points in space, anyone can enter them any time they want, provided they can get past the gate camps. Everything has been built around this from the very beginning. Sovereignty, local, directional scanner, probes, belts, moons, everything. You can't just pull the local out or switch it into delayed mode, you have to make extensive modifications and improvements on other systems before you can even try that. Basically, this requires extensive planning and re-designing even the most basic elements of the 0.0 space. We already know CCP is working on a new sovereignty mechanic, unless they design it with removing local in mind, I'd say chances of removing the local is slim to none.

Bestofworst Worstofbest Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.08.07 06:13:00 - [81] Edited by: Bestofworst Worstofbest on 07/08/2009 06:14:31 How about we have an actual DELAY on local. If you are in the system more than 5-10 minutes than you show up like normal in local. This will give emphasis to more hit and run tactics and legging it to the next system. However the obvious exploit to this change would be to jump in the next system and back, but how about you keep it on a shared timer, like sec status updates via rats. Each system has a timer for when you show up in local depending on how long you are in there, and it resets every half hour. Edit: This way, people who are foolish enough to stay in one system (macro ratters) will be easy to kill while keeping relative saftey for more of the smarter ratters and gives a bonus to some of us trying to farm sec status ________________________________________________ Am I an alt, main, or both? You decide!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.07 06:44:00 - [82] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 07/08/2009 06:46:58 Originally by: King Rothgar In regards to all belts requiring probing, it would require a dramatic change over the current system because having 20 belts in a system that move around every 2-3 days would kill the servers. They would need to make a change like what was made in w-space, combine 20 belts into just 3 or 4. You wouldn't go to the gravitational sites (aka hidden belts) to rat, you would go there to actually mine ore. For ratting purposes you would go to combat plex's. Great suggestion. What is "Ratting ships can fire back, I want only mining ships in the belts"? If there is something you wouldn't do in static belts with no local is to mine. BTW: no mineable roids in the static belts in WH space. Originally by: Bestofworst Worstofbest Edited by: Bestofworst Worstofbest on 07/08/2009 06:14:31 How about we have an actual DELAY on local. If you are in the system more than 5-10 minutes than you show up like normal in local. This will give emphasis to more hit and run tactics and legging it to the next system. However the obvious exploit to this change would be to jump in the next system and back, but how about you keep it on a shared timer, like sec status updates via rats. Each system has a timer for when you show up in local depending on how long you are in there, and it resets every half hour. Edit: This way, people who are foolish enough to stay in one system (macro ratters) will be easy to kill while keeping relative saftey for more of the smarter ratters and gives a bonus to some of us trying to farm sec status Another one for the "mining in 0.0, no way" crowd.
Amitious Turkey Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.08.07 06:47:00 - [83] Many people in this thread, however, do agree that the local mechanic in 0.0 as it is now must be changed, whether it be like w-space, getting it as a sov thing, or whatever. Amirite? I support any change to 0.0 local, if it helps me, as a casual, lone-wolf player, to have a piece of the action. And if the consequences ar undesirable? Move on and tinker with it until we find something that works. shrugs My sig was fail, but now it isn't. Originally by: CCP Navigator We love you all as well <3 GO NAVIGATOR <3
Bestofworst Worstofbest Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.08.07 06:49:00 - [84] Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 07/08/2009 06:46:58 Originally by: King Rothgar In regards to all belts requiring probing, it would require a dramatic change over the current system because having 20 belts in a system that move around every 2-3 days would kill the servers. They would need to make a change like what was made in w-space, combine 20 belts into just 3 or 4. You wouldn't go to the gravitational sites (aka hidden belts) to rat, you would go there to actually mine ore. For ratting purposes you would go to combat plex's. Great suggestion. What is "Ratting ships can fire back, I want only mining ships in the belts"? If there is something you wouldn't do in static belts with no local is to mine. BTW: no mineable roids in the static belts in WH space. Originally by: Bestofworst Worstofbest Edited by: Bestofworst Worstofbest on 07/08/2009 06:14:31 How about we have an actual DELAY on local. If you are in the system more than 5-10 minutes than you show up like normal in local. This will give emphasis to more hit and run tactics and legging it to the next system. However the obvious exploit to this change would be to jump in the next system and back, but how about you keep it on a shared timer, like sec status updates via rats. Each system has a timer for when you show up in local depending on how long you are in there, and it resets every half hour. Edit: This way, people who are foolish enough to stay in one system (macro ratters) will be easy to kill while keeping relative saftey for more of the smarter ratters and gives a bonus to some of us trying to farm sec status Another one for the "mining in 0.0, no way" crowd. You could have static belts in systems with standard set of Minerals based on region with standard rats. And then you can have mining sites scannable just like complexes that can contain much better ores or officer spawns. (If this is already the case, increase the amount of plex spawns) ________________________________________________ Am I an alt, main, or both? You decide!
Hrodgar Ortal	Posted - 2009.08.07 06:56:00 - [85] And still no good reason why killing off ALL activity in 0.0 is good for anyone. Removing local means: Noone ratting and noone mining. Noone doing that means people do lvl4's in high sec insted since you won't lose your expensive ships without any possibility to do anything. Why should 0.0 only be dangerous for the people living there and not the people attacking? Defenders usually have the advantage but not so much in a environment where they have no ability to do anything.
Tamahra Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.08.07 07:15:00 - [86] Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal Why should 0.0 only be dangerous for the people living there and not the people attacking? Defenders usually have the advantage but not so much in a environment where they have no ability to do anything. Pretty much this. Removing local would overpower the attackers and griefers to much, while at the same time it would nerf every single non-pvp activity in low sec or 0-sec to hell and back.
Bestofworst Worstofbest Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.08.07 07:23:00 - [87] Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal And still no good reason why killing off ALL activity in 0.0 is good for anyone. Removing local means: Noone ratting and noone mining. Noone doing that means people do lvl4's in high sec insted since you won't lose your expensive ships without any possibility to do anything. Why should 0.0 only be dangerous for the people living there and not the people attacking? Defenders usually have the advantage but not so much in a environment where they have no ability to do anything. How about players in Alliances or in high standing with alliances that have a certain sov can get instant local in that system, while the attacks don't have instant local, gives a slight advantage of intel. ________________________________________________ Am I an alt, main, or both? You decide!
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.08.07 07:25:00 - [88] Argh is the dirty pirates who want local removed from 0.0! And... I agree with them. I don't think Rothgar is entirely correct on local not being removed because too many people want it to stay. Most of the people who would want it to stay, are the ones who hardly go there. What I have noticed in the past in threads like this, is that the people who harbor some kind of weird "kill everything that moves for the killboard (all hail the killboard!)" are the ones who tend to be against the removal of local. No local means you actually have a chance to scan a system, get to a SS in cloak, or just get to the other side of it and jump to the next system, without every bored ganker or Jan Brady and his brother coming after you. Heck you get a better chance in the real world having your car break down in South Bronx. Removal of local will turn blobs and camps, which as just as bad for the blobbers and campers as such tactics are for the blobbees and campees, into actual combat patrols and real challenging warfare. This would be better for everybody. As for most of the 0.0 inhabitants being carebears, real carebears won't go into 0.0. Those people in 0.0 who want local to stay are really griefbears. They like local, because they can use it as their intel tool. A loner comes in, it's gank time. King Rothgar comes in, it's dock time (lest they be ganked). Thus from my point of view, removing local makes it easier for everybody to survive, but harder to get a target. The lazy ganker and missioner is the one who loses. But most people are lazy, and so perhaps it's possible that local will never be removed. Given the chance to vote, I say, remove local. For a game that lacks "Arenas", Local sure makes every system act like one. And that is just stupid.
Sileam Caldari NosferaTech	Posted - 2009.08.07 07:30:00 - [89] Edited by: Sileam on 07/08/2009 07:31:02 I have some balancing idea: - local in HIGHSEC still as it is. - local in LOWSEC shows you only when you're uncloaked on the same grid as any sentry gun (so close to stations/gates). - local in NULLSEC as in W-Space. How about that?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.07 07:33:00 - [90] Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal And still no good reason why killing off ALL activity in 0.0 is good for anyone. Removing local means: Noone ratting and noone mining. Noone doing that means people do lvl4's in high sec insted since you won't lose your expensive ships without any possibility to do anything. Why should 0.0 only be dangerous for the people living there and not the people attacking? Defenders usually have the advantage but not so much in a environment where they have no ability to do anything. Lol. Don't be so dramatic. Putting local into delayed mode won't 'kill off all activity'. It will only reduce the activities of stupid and inept players who can't seem to understand the value of team play and the ability to take an active part in their own protection. Other than that, it's a two way street. Attacks won't know the true strength of the defenders and vice versa. Fast hit and run attacks would be commonplace. Traps would be easier to enact, from both sides. What is to stop an alliance from running a mining op and having 20+ recons cloaked in the belt with them? With no local it's impossible for the attackers to know otherwise. Your post is a perfect example of all of the people who can't figure out how to make it work to their advantage and therefor don't want anything to change. In short: you fail. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting



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