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Havohej
Minmatar
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
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Posted - 2009.08.26 19:23:00 -
[121]
 Originally by: lucifers widow
I not posted on this page even
The three threads are closely related, you can be sure anyone following this one is also following the other two. And you're not the proxy posted I was referring to, Corporate Thief is... you're not important enough to reference twice in one post, pilot, so don't flatter yourself.
"You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
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Vendrin
Caldari
Veto.
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Posted - 2009.08.26 19:37:00 -
[122]
If an orbital bombardment happens to take out a village of these salvation converts, will you pay the bounty for each head that is routinely seen attending one of their little chapels or is more indepth "proof required"?
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Havohej
Minmatar
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
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Posted - 2009.08.26 20:10:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Vendrin
If an orbital bombardment happens to take out a village of these salvation converts, will you pay the bounty for each head that is routinely seen attending one of their little chapels or is more indepth "proof required"?
A claimant needs to be a Minmatar citizen of the Minmatar Republic and provide direct evidence of involvement in religious insurrection taking place. They also need to provide proof that they were responsible for the termination of the enemy personnel.
This reward is intended, of course, to benefit the common Minmatar non-capsuleer, but if someone were to somehow gain access to that sort of firepower I suspect the Republic government would be all over it before we could get anywhere near investigating the legitimacy of the claim.
Which, really, is just as well... that sort of an attack would almost certainly kill a large number of innocent Minmatar and that is the last thing Du'uma Fiisi wants to see happen.
"You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
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Vendrin
Caldari
Veto.
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Posted - 2009.08.26 20:16:00 -
[124]
Pity
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Sauli Keskinen
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Posted - 2009.08.26 20:28:00 -
[125]
Just a question to Captain Havohej; out of curiosity since you don't appear to obey the Republic's current laws as being that of "Midular the Appeaser", what are your views of the laws of your tribal leaders, or your clan's leaders? Isn't the essence of Matari society the importance of group loyalty, whether that group is your local clan, village elders, tribal chiefs or the Sanmatar?
If this is so, and you were ordered by say your clan's head, the chief of the Sebeistor Tribe/chief of the Thukker or Sanmatar Shakor himself to cease your campaign, would you follow their orders or not? Just wondering sir, not intending to start a fight, nor insult you. |
Havohej
Minmatar
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
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Posted - 2009.08.26 20:46:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Sauli Keskinen
Just a question to Captain Havohej; out of curiosity since you don't appear to obey the Republic's current laws as being that of "Midular the Appeaser", what are your views of the laws of your tribal leaders, or your clan's leaders? Isn't the essence of Matari society the importance of group loyalty, whether that group is your local clan, village elders, tribal chiefs or the Sanmatar?
If this is so, and you were ordered by say your clan's head, the chief of the Sebeistor Tribe/chief of the Thukker or Sanmatar Shakor himself to cease your campaign, would you follow their orders or not? Just wondering sir, not intending to start a fight, nor insult you.
Minmatar preaching the Amarr Empire's religious doctrine of slavery are no longer loyal to clan or tribe. Like the Ammatar generations ago, they made their choice.
The leaders of the Sebiestor tribe, so far as I can tell, have been supportive of the 'democratist' point of view and it is my sincere hope that when the Tribal Assembly is brought together they will be persuaded to see the light of reason and acknowledge that the Gallente political model is not the model that will best see our people into the future. Chief Aeboul of the Thukker Tribe has not publicly commented on the 'democratist' bloc or their wishes that I have seen, but given that he has made his primary concern the autonomy of the Thukker Tribe, I can't imagine he would approve of the Salvation Crusade's quest to convert all of the Minmatar population into willing, 'god' fearing slaves who believe in the 'divine' right and superiority of the Amarrians as told in their scriptures.
If Sanmatar Shakor himself bespoke a desire to see the Salvation Crusade's religious insurrection continue I would indeed question the honesty of everything that he has said and done leading up to this point. Fortunately, I don't believe my faith in Sanmatar Shakor will be tested in that way. If Sanmatar Shakor were to condemn our methods, I am confident that condemnation would be followed by an announcement of an official and probably more humane way of dealing with the problem... and above all else, I am a reasonable man, open to compromise.
"You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
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ChipMo
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.26 21:04:00 -
[127]
Isn't you or Shakor for that matter, dictating what Minmatar people can and cannot believe just another form of slavery?
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Havohej
Minmatar
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
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Posted - 2009.08.26 21:10:00 -
[128]
Hm... On the one hand, we have the option to believe there is a supreme, omnipotent being who says that everyone in the universe should submit to enslavement by the Amarr because they are the master race. On the other hand, we have the option to say, "Listen guys, you can believe in anything but that."
I'll take the lesser of those two evils: "You can believe in anything but that."
"You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
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Louella Dougans
Amarr
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
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Posted - 2009.08.26 21:16:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Havohej
supreme, omnipotent being who says that everyone in the universe should submit to enslavement by the Amarr because they are the master race.
I'd point out that God doesn't say that, the Scriptures don't say that, Amarr doesn't say that. Only Idiots say that.
But you've already made up your mind about it, and nothing anyone can say would change it.
You're still one of God's creatures though. Maybe you'll find peace and joy some day. Preferably without killing others.
Mother used to disapprove of my lifestyle.
Now I disapprove of hers.
The Circle is Complete. |
Sophie Starsparrow
Minmatar
Starfish Operating Syndicate
Independent Faction
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Posted - 2009.08.26 21:19:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Sauli Keskinen
Isn't the essence of Matari society the importance of group loyalty, whether that group is your local clan, village elders, tribal chiefs or the Sanmatar?
Sauli, I realize your question was posted to Pilot Havohej, and I certainly have no intention of speaking for him, however, you seem to be confusing us with Caldari. A Tribal leader's job is to be the voice of the tribe, to represent an individual clan's concerns to the larger community, not the other way around. I know Sanmatar Shakor has been portrayed as a tyrant and as a dictator. Whether he becomes this or not remains to be seen, but all he has done to this point is what the tribe wishes. Our voices travel up to the heavens, not down from them, as the Amarr society is structured. We do not split into teams to see who's bigger to see who gets their way as the Gallente do, bowing to the herd while pretending to be on the side of the individual. We do not expect blind loyalty and fealty to a larger group as the Caldari do. Only by understanding and dealing with the concerns of the individual can the group expect loyalty in return. When our leaders or governance methods are no longer reflecting the wishes of the tribe, they are removed, as Midular was removed, as the Parliament was removed. The debate you see raging between Pilots Havohej and Wildfire is a vital part of this process. This is how differences are settled among us, and sometimes, how new tribes are born.
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Havohej
Minmatar
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
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Posted - 2009.08.26 21:19:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Havohej on 26/08/2009 21:21:53
You'll forgive me if I take the actions of your people over the last few hundred years over the lies of a self-proclaimed space nun.
e: Pilot Starsparrow, you are a credit to our people. It is a pity we were unable to convince you to join us before.
"You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
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ChipMo
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.26 21:20:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Havohej
Hm... On the one hand, we have the option to believe there is a supreme, omnipotent being who says that everyone in the universe should submit to enslavement by the Amarr because they are the master race. On the other hand, we have the option to say, "Listen guys, you can believe in anything but that."
I'll take the lesser of those two evils: "You can believe in anything but that."
The first sounds more like the 24th Crusade than a cult of Jarek. The crime of the Amrrians is not in their arrogance, it is in the execution of this arrogance. Holding an opinion and holding a slave are two extreams and should be treated as such.
If I were in your shoes I would look to social exclusion or ridicule to deal with any remnants of Jarek's followers within the Republic. Save your capital punishment for those who truly deserve it - Those who actively attack the republic or its people.
It would be a great shame for the Minmatar Republic to turn into the conditional Republic.
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Havohej
Minmatar
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
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Posted - 2009.08.26 21:28:00 -
[133]
Originally by: ChipMo
The first sounds more like the 24th Crusade than a cult of Jarek.
The "Cult of Jarek" idea is an Amarrian lie; Jarek and his religious insurrection were not an independant, random Minmatar cult of Amarr faith with no Imperial involvement. I'll quote myself from the other thread:
Originally by: Havohej
At his inauguration speech, Sanmatar Shakor said that we are, "a race of warriors, not slaves," and stressed the importance of clan unity - he said nothing about the importance of allowing outsiders like Abel Jarek to begin religious insurrections on behalf of the Amarr Empire. Or did you forget that Jarek was a Cleric in the Salvation Church of Blessed Servitude, an authorized branch of the Amarrian Church serving slave populations? An official Amarrian slave preacher!
Jarek's insurrection isn't a simple cult of misguided kids, it is a calculated attack born in the Amarr Empire.
Originally by: ChipMo
If I were in your shoes I would look to social exclusion or ridicule to deal with any remnants of Jarek's followers within the Republic. Save your capital punishment for those who truly deserve it - Those who actively attack the republic or its people.
That is exactly what these traitors are doing, they merely use poisoned scriptures rather than firearms, targeting the cultural identity crisis forced upon our people since the Yulai convention in the form of politicians like Midular the Appeaser telling us that our ways were wrong and we should be more like the Gallente in order to make the Amarr and Caldari think more highly of us.
"You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
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ChipMo
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.26 21:51:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Havohej
That is exactly what these traitors are doing, they merely use poisoned scriptures rather than firearms, targeting the cultural identity crisis forced upon our people since the Yulai convention in the form of politicians like Midular the Appeaser telling us that our ways were wrong and we should be more like the Gallente in order to make the Amarr and Caldari think more highly of us.
If your proud of your culture, share it, celebrate it! Gratuitous violence against men whose only weapons are words... What kind of culture is that? It is not the Matari I know.
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Louella Dougans
Amarr
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
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Posted - 2009.08.26 21:55:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Havohej
You'll forgive me if I take the actions of your people over the last few hundred years over the lies of a self-proclaimed space nun.
Hurr, asking forgiveness of an Amarrian? You should stand in the corner and think about what you just did, no?
Humour aside. It's the Truth.
What's been done in the past has been done by idiots who like to wallow in material wealth, rather than accept their proper role in the scheme of things. Hence, invasions, slavery, etc, etc. Rather than living a decent godly life and so on.
Mother used to disapprove of my lifestyle.
Now I disapprove of hers.
The Circle is Complete. |
Havohej
Minmatar
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
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Posted - 2009.08.26 22:06:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Louella Dougans
Originally by: Havohej
You'll forgive me if I take the actions of your people over the last few hundred years over the lies of a self-proclaimed space nun.
Hurr, asking forgiveness of an Amarrian?
I didn't ask. I told.
"You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
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Arnulf Ogunkoya
Minmatar
The Causality
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Posted - 2009.08.26 23:15:00 -
[137]
One point.
In offering these bounties you are relying on the judgement of whoever decides to go collect on them not to kill the wrong people.
If this group of converts is a threat to the Minmatar people how long before one of your amateur headhunters kills an Republic Security Services undercover agent?
Regards,
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Havohej
Minmatar
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
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Posted - 2009.08.27 00:04:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Arnulf Ogunkoya
One point.
In offering these bounties you are relying on the judgement of whoever decides to go collect on them not to kill the wrong people.
If this group of converts is a threat to the Minmatar people how long before one of your amateur headhunters kills an Republic Security Services undercover agent?
If a claimant murders a Minmatar - that is, kills someone without sufficiently proving that the target was involved in the insurrection - that claimant will not be paid and will be turned in to his or her local planetary police agency, of course.
I would expect an RSS agent to be sufficiently trained that your average citizen would find it quite difficult to get the drop on one.
"You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
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Arnulf Ogunkoya
Minmatar
The Causality
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Posted - 2009.08.27 08:30:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Havohej
If a claimant murders a Minmatar - that is, kills someone without sufficiently proving that the target was involved in the insurrection - that claimant will not be paid and will be turned in to his or her local planetary police agency, of course.
I don't think much of this program for more than one reason but it's good to see you have some restraint.
Originally by: Havohej
I would expect an RSS agent to be sufficiently trained that your average citizen would find it quite difficult to get the drop on one.
Anyone can be unlucky, even trained agents. Also, I doubt anyone who can stalk a target well enough to gather the sort of proof that you require could be described as an average citizen.
My main point is that such an agent would seem, by your standards, to be one of your targets. I'd say leave this sort of thing to professionals and defend our people in a way you are trained for.
Regards,
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