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[REWARD] Salvation Crusade Offenders Wanted

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Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.20 17:26:00 - [1] Edited by: Havohej on 20/08/2009 17:29:26 http://eve-dfias.com/Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.[/url] 1,000,000.00 ISK REWARD For the disciples of the late Abel Jarek At this time, Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics is offering a 1,000,000 (1 Million) ISK bounty for confirmed followers of the late traitor Abel Jarek's so-called Salvation Crusade. Proof of a bounty's involvement with the traitor's "church" will be required in the form of photographic (preferably videographic) evidence. Proof of death will be required in the form of photo/videographic evidence of a bounty being either beheaded or burned to death. These methods have been decided upon and approved by Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics based on their being difficult for the average citizen to falsify on visual media. We fully accept that today's legal and political climate is not necessarily hospitable to openly identifiable vigilante elements, and so to preserve the sanctity of claimants' personal lives, Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics has made preparations with several intermediaries to handle these private transactions in such a way that will not require a claimant to openly reveal their identity. In this way, Du'uma Fiisi ensures that patriotic Minmatar will not find themselves unduly targeted for illegal and unjust retribution by the followers of the traitor's bastardized Amarrian faith or beset by ill-informed law enforcement personnel following an out-dated and obsolete code of standards set during the regime of Midular the Amarrian Appeaser. In most cases, a claimant will make contact with Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics to request a consultation regarding a gravimetric find as per our usual business practices. A Du'uma Fiisi representative will contact the claimant and on discerning the reason for the claimant's contacting our corporation our representative will give specific instructions for the claimant to follow in order to securely transmit his/her photo/videographic data for confirmation. This confirmation will be carried on in two ways: first, the photo/video data will be analyzed for authenticity and second, the bounty's death will be confirmed through official sources such as police reports and obituaries. After confirmation, further instructions will be delivered for the claimant to receive his/her reward. We trust that one million ISK is more than many Minmatar citizens will ever see in their entire lives and sincerely hope that, through our offer, not only will quality of life improve for the average Minmatar as the voices spouting vile lies of Amarrian scripture preaching openly and within earshot of our young people are quieted, but also those Minmatar of particularly strong heart will find for themselves the financial means to make a better life for their families in a more direct way.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.20 17:29:00 - [2] Disgusting.
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.08.20 17:35:00 - [3] Originally by: Rodj Blake Disgusting. So is your practice of slavery, so this should smell like roses to you.
Jack Leo	Posted - 2009.08.20 18:12:00 - [4] What give you the right to prosecute people who chose to exert the freedom of speech? I am no fan of the amarrian religion but because you disagree with what they preech doesnt give you the right to hunt the people down.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.20 18:23:00 - [5] Originally by: Jack Leo What give you the right What gave the Amarr Empire the right to enslave our entire race? What gives the Amarr Empire the right to continue to hold not less than one third of our entire race in bondage? What gave Abel Jarek the right to preach the slaver's religion to our free children in our cities on our worlds? What gives his disciples the right to continue to do so? Do not speak to us of 'rights'. When these traitors took up the slaver's cause, they renounced their blood, their people, their right to the glory of Minmatar. When they took up Jarek's unarmed insurrectionist crusade, they may not have fired a shot against our people but they've made no secret of their goal: to convert the entire Minmatar race and return it to bondage to the Amarr Empire. These criminals are enemies of the Minmatar Republic but more importantly they are enemies to the Minmatar people, whether the laws of the Appeaser's dead regime accurately reflect this fact or not. 1,000,000.00 ISK Reward in effect, citizens of Minmatar. Do the right thing, for your and your peoples' future. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Shern Minmatar Ammatar Free Corps Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.20 18:26:00 - [6] I am very glad that I live in the Mandate, where the Governer's laws stop people like Havohej levying blood money on people they disagree with.
Shirley Serious Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra	Posted - 2009.08.20 18:43:00 - [7] As I understand things: Abel Jarek's 'Crusade' was intended to convert the people in the Republic to that Church, a sect that the Theology Council approves of. Which would make the people of the Republic freemen believers. And the Theology Council would not allow free believers to be enslaved. Not even if the Empress ordered it. So if Abel Jarek's 'Crusade' succeeds, then the Republic citizens will never be under the threat of being enslaved. (Except for criminals) And with the Empress's pronouncements relating to the end of slavery being within her sight. (i.e. a few centuries from now), then the currently enslaved people that the Republic claims as their own (debatable), would be freed. The zealots and fundamentalists in the Empire would be sidelined, and the moderates and liberals would make progress, and bring reform. Everyone benefits. Exterminating the 'Crusade' followers, therefore means: The people in the Republic will never now be willing converts. So they remain 'legitimate' subjects for enslavement. So the billions of Republic citizens will now forever live under the shadow of enslavement. And the enslaved people have no hope of freedom. Religious moderates get the rug pulled from under them, and the zealots and fundamentalists return to the fore, bringing destruction to the rest of the galaxy, and the Republic will pay the majority of the cost. Everyone loses. So, as I understand things, you, Capt. Havohej, are effectively acting as a recruiter for the most fundamentalist and zealous of the Amarr, and bringing fear and destruction onto the Republic and the people in it, and denying the enslaved people any hope of real freedom. How much were you paid by the zealots to do this?
Halunoto Vankaalen	Posted - 2009.08.20 18:50:00 - [8] Well, somewhat refreshing I guess, to see that the call for constant violence and depravity still flickers back and forth between our southern neighbours.
Lord Maximullis Amarr Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.20 19:02:00 - [9] Edited by: Lord Maximullis on 20/08/2009 19:13:52 Marius appears onscreen, a cigarette hanging loosely out of the side of his mouth, the smoke curling up around him. He smiles. "Excellent.."
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.20 19:08:00 - [10] Originally by: Shirley Serious ... That's not worth the dignity of a considered reply. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Lord Maximullis Amarr Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.20 19:17:00 - [11] Originally by: Shirley Serious So the billions of Republic citizens will now forever live under the shadow of enslavement. And the enslaved people have no hope of freedom. This is where you are wrong my dear. The Empire will burn, in the fires of it's own hubris. That day, I will buy Mr Blake a drink before he is dragged to the gallows.
Shirley Serious Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra	Posted - 2009.08.20 19:52:00 - [12] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Shirley Serious ... That's not worth the dignity of a considered reply. Predictable. Every time my esteemed cousin-through-marriage says something along the lines of: "You know, the Minmatar aren't savages, they can be reasoned and debated with. Don't believe every horror story those fundamentalists would tell you." Someone like you comes along to provide evidence to the contrary. Yes. Yes, I am.
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:37:00 - [13] The Amarrian 'religeon' declared war against us ten centuries ago. To this day, those vile people continue their war under cover of various diplomatic smokescreens; continue to abuse our brothers and sisters, continue to perform horrific acts on our children and cousins. They know how to end the war when they decide they truly want peace. Until then, those who continue to support the Reclaimation have chosen to make themselves targets. -- Becq Starforged The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
Zuzanna Alondra Gallente Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.20 22:47:00 - [14] Originally by: Shern I am very glad that I live in the Mandate, where the Governer's laws stop people like Havohej levying blood money on people they disagree with. It isn't Havohej, read again Parjure, it is the corporation as a whole. If we didn't like it, we would leave- I personally plan on extending my employment contract and sticking around for awhile.
Drakonus Laerdon Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.20 22:53:00 - [15] Every time that the sub-human Tribals open their mouths, they make the case for their own enslavement... --------------- Non Nobis, Domine, Non Nobis, Sed nomini tuo da gloriam.
Lord Maximullis Amarr Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.21 00:17:00 - [16] Edited by: Lord Maximullis on 21/08/2009 00:17:45 Originally by: Drakonus Laerdon Every time that the sub-human Tribals open their mouths, they make the case for their own enslavement... Sub-human...how ironic coming from a man who places his faith and justifies his wrongdoings with a myth. You have much to learn boy, when you have seen what I saw within the evil ranks of PIE. Such as PIE members shooting each other, and a PIE member addmiting that she did not follow Jamyl's emancipation declaration, instead executing her 9th generation slaves. Then you will be able to talk about sub-human. (The PIE member to which I am refering is Arline Kley. Who addmited to me that she had disobeyed Empress Jamyl's order and who shot then PIE leitenant Koronakesh over an affair with a Matari woman"
Drakonus Laerdon Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.21 00:57:00 - [17] Originally by: Lord Maximullis Sub-human...how ironic coming from a man who places his faith and justifies his wrongdoings with a myth. You have much to learn boy, when you have seen what I saw within the evil ranks of PIE. Such as PIE members shooting each other, and a PIE member addmiting that she did not follow Jamyl's emancipation declaration, instead executing her 9th generation slaves. Then you will be able to talk about sub-human. (The PIE member to which I am refering is Arline Kley. Who addmited to me that she had disobeyed Empress Jamyl's order and who shot then PIE leitenant Koronakesh over an affair with a Matari woman" Those who embrace the Lord And walk in light Shall be saved by His grace For we are the shepherds in the dark His Angels of Mercy Those who turn away from the light And walk in darkness Shall be stuck down by His wrath For we are retribution incarnate His Angels of Vengeance - Scriptures. Book of Reclaiming 4:45 Keep your forked tongue behind your teeth, traitor. You will one day answer to a Judge higher than us all. Enjoy your eternal damnation. --------------- Non Nobis, Domine, Non Nobis, Sed nomini tuo da gloriam.
Vikarion Caldari White Rose Society	Posted - 2009.08.21 03:42:00 - [18] "The only thing worse than an Amarrian is a Matari And the only thing worse than a Matari is an Amarrian."
Lord Maximullis Amarr Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.21 06:45:00 - [19] Originally by: Drakonus Laerdon Those who turn away from the light And walk in darkness Shall be stuck down by His wrath - Scriptures. Book of Reclaiming 4:45[/i] I'm still waiting...if we are honest, your God's "wrath" is frankly a little weak. I mean, i've killed some many hundreds of thousands of his 'holy warriors' surely he would have noticed...but no, no lighnting from the sky or angels...it's very dissapointing.
Ardaeus Gallente Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.21 14:39:00 - [20] Originally by: Drakonus Laerdon Those who embrace the Lord And walk in light Shall be saved by His grace For we are the shepherds in the dark His Angels of Mercy Those who turn away from the light And walk in darkness Shall be stuck down by His wrath For we are retribution incarnate His Angels of Vengeance - Scriptures. Book of Reclaiming 4:45 Keep your forked tongue behind your teeth, traitor. You will one day answer to a Judge higher than us all. Enjoy your eternal damnation. I find it quite interesting that you have chosen this piece of scripture to represent your faith, Mr Laerdon. Someone trying to speak against the Amarrian religion may indeed select the same quote. One cannot rob another of their most basic rights and claim to do it out of concern for that person's well being. Your holy book says you are angels of both mercy and vengeance. I prefer historical records to holy writ, personally, and history shows me that you are not shepherds or angels, but rather more akin to wild dogs. For centuries you ran free and bit at those who were unable to defend themselves from your viscious, rabid teeth. Now you've been collared and put on your leash, and all your able to do is growl and bark. Perhaps in time you truely can be shepherds in the dark, but a good sheep dog needs to be loyal and kind. It seems you still need to be broken and trained. I'm sure my Minmatar friend would be more than happy to oblige. As a side note, to those of us who are not of your faith - threats of eternal damnation mean little. Personally I follow Ida. It teaches us to consider all things. This is a lesson you should take to heart. Consider your words before you speak, and your actions before you act, lest the leashed dog finds itself put down.
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2009.08.21 17:34:00 - [21] In an odd way, I'm always impressed when someone manages to wrong the Amarr.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.21 21:54:00 - [22] I think you need some more lesson on how to start a proper Inquisition mr. Havohej I have no doubt a few Caldari entrepeneurs with the right equipment can manage a few shots of your family following the late Abel Jarek. For a couple of million isk reward, I don't think it should be a problem. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.21 23:12:00 - [23] Originally by: Merdaneth I think you need some more lesson on how to start a proper Inquisition mr. Havohej I have no doubt a few Caldari entrepeneurs with the right equipment can manage a few shots of your family following the late Abel Jarek. For a couple of million isk reward, I don't think it should be a problem. Abel Jarek is dead, as are what blood relations I had; I've been a capsuleer for quite some time, pilot. A part of our agents' confirmation duties includes verifying the identity and background of the claimant so that we do not end up paying monies to Republic law enforcement personnel and directly incriminating our own people... you can be sure that those same precautions would reveal attempts by Caldari (or any other corporations) to defraud our good will for profit. I thank you for raising your concern, though, as you have given me an opportunity to address a concern that I am sure many of our Minmatar brethren have also felt. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.22 10:43:00 - [24] Mr. Havohej, With your highly volatile opinions of brethren and our people and willingness to have Matari people turn each other in and have them slaughtered for isk, you've certainly cast the Matari warcry 'We come for our people!' in a very different light to me. I truly think that a few centuries hence 'We come for our people!' will feature prominently in bogeyman tales known to induce nightmares in children. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Alica Wildfire Minmatar Federal Investigations Agency	Posted - 2009.08.22 12:10:00 - [25] In fact the boogieman for Minmatar children is "The Priest". If you want to scare Minmatar children to death you just have to tell them the legend about the dark hooded priest that is coming at night to steal the children and put them under the whip. Forever, until they die. Ironically this is not a fairytale, this is the world we live in. -- FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
Crevo Helion Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.22 14:32:00 - [26] Mr. Havohej, what are your motivations behind this æbounty huntingÆ? Revenge? Bloodlust? I fail to see how killing our own people, who have made a choice on what to believe, will solve anything. Will it save someone from capture? Will it free a single slave from bondage? Originally by: Havohej Abel Jarek is dead, ... And as far as IÆve heard, no one has taken up his mantle. There is no resurgence of pro-Amarr preaching where I have been. Quite the opposite. If you are worried about our Matari youth as you say, I think a better use of your words is teaching them that freedom runs both ways, not just for those who agree with what you personally believe. Originally by: Havohej What gave Abel Jarek the right to preach the slaver's religion to our free children in our cities on our worlds? The same freedom that gives you the right to preach against his words. Originally by: Havohej These criminals are enemies of the Minmatar Republic but more importantly they are enemies to the Minmatar people, whether the laws of the Appeaser's dead regime accurately reflect this fact or not. This would be more accurate directed at yourself and your corporation. What's next? Someone is seen wearing Amarrian clothing, 1 million isk for the first person to burn them alive? Originally by: Havohej 1,000,000.00 ISK Reward in effect, citizens of Minmatar. Do the right thing, for your and your peoples' future. I truly hope they do.
Alica Wildfire Minmatar Federal Investigations Agency	Posted - 2009.08.22 16:07:00 - [27] Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 22/08/2009 16:21:35 I can only pprove to this. To live our free choice is the right we are fighting for. To hunt down Matari by putting a bounty on their head is in absolute contrast to the things we are fighting for. I never liked Abel Jarek and his mission, to be blank. But I always respected his way. I respected his freedom. What is the worth of free speech if you get a bounty on your head by the people who don't like that? What is the worth of free speech if you get bullied away by security everywhere you want to express your opinion? There was made an experiment in a Gallentean city. Just stand in a shopping mall with a sign that says: "Everything is okay". And it just needs a few minutes until private security arrives to drive them off. And a few minutes more until the police comes to represent the interests of some corporations, not the intrests of the public nor of the constitution. What do you think? Freedom is a fragile plant that is stomped by the boots of the careless easily. It needs a lot of protection, love and devotion. There are more experiments by that group of activists. Just take a look and think about it. This happens if the people do not protect freedom in a free country for -say- ten to twenty years. We do not let that happen in Minmatar. I will protect the followers of Abel Jarek myself if they face any more threads. Even if I do not like their message nor their leader. I like their freedom. And this I'm fighting for all day. And ever will. -- FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.08.22 16:47:00 - [28] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Jack Leo What give you the right What gave the Amarr Empire the right to enslave our entire race? What gives the Amarr Empire the right to continue to hold not less than one third of our entire race in bondage? What gave Abel Jarek the right to preach the slaver's religion to our free children in our cities on our worlds? And what gives YOU the right to behave exactly like them? - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.22 18:00:00 - [29] Originally by: Merdaneth Mr. Havohej, With your highly volatile opinions of brethren and our people and willingness to have Matari people turn each other in and have them slaughtered for isk, you've certainly cast the Matari warcry 'We come for our people!' in a very different light to me. I truly think that a few centuries hence 'We come for our people!' will feature prominently in bogeyman tales known to induce nightmares in children. This offer isn't so much a "We come for our people." This is more of a "We burn out our cancers." Originally by: Crevo Helion Mr. Havohej, what are your motivations behind this æbounty huntingÆ? Revenge? Bloodlust? To burn out the cancer that is spreading among our people. Originally by: Crevo Helion Originally by: Havohej Abel Jarek is dead, ... And as far as IÆve heard, no one has taken up his mantle. There is no resurgence of pro-Amarr preaching where I have been. Quite the opposite. Really? You're not paying attention. As reported by the Scope: Minmatar Converts Deeply Concerned by Jarek Killing, Political Rights Demanded. They're becoming 'increasingly vocal' demanding political rights now, you fool! It didn't end with Jarek's death. It won't end until all of those who would preach the slaver's religion of oppression to our children are purged. I envy you your prettied up mental image of a safe, secure, peaceful republic but the reality is we're not safe from the slaver yet. Originally by: Crevo Helion Originally by: Havohej What gave Abel Jarek the right to preach the slaver's religion to our free children in our cities on our worlds? The same freedom that gives you the right to preach against his words. Nonsense; nobody is free to preach the slaver's religion (which is the basis for the slaver's justification of slavery itself!) to Minmatar children on Minmatar worlds. Nobody. Originally by: Crevo Helion Originally by: Havohej These criminals are enemies of the Minmatar Republic but more importantly they are enemies to the Minmatar people, whether the laws of the Appeaser's dead regime accurately reflect this fact or not. This would be more accurate directed at yourself and your corporation. What's next? Someone is seen wearing Amarrian clothing, 1 million isk for the first person to burn them alive? Clothing can't enslave a third of our race (indeed, our entire race at one time). That you would even make that comment says to me that you don't understand the danger Jarek's little religious insurrection poses to our people; it is because of Minmatar like you that Jarek was able to gain a foothold at all. Originally by: Stitcher And what gives YOU the right to behave exactly like them? My favorite IGS blowhard, so good of you to weigh in. Originally by: Alica Wildfire Concerns You don't just let a cancer spread wildly. Did you also disagree with the Elders' fleet launching their suprise attack? You're absolute right, Pilot, freedom IS fragile. It DOES need a lot of protection. So why would you allow people to preach the religion of slavery to a nation of people that still desperately seeks stability in the conflict enveloping New Eden and particularly the Republic? Why would you let these Amarrian preachers in Minmatar skin walk among our children planting mental, emotional and spiritual seeds of slavery like the wolves in sheeps' clothing that they are? It's saddening that there are any Minmatar who can't see the truth of the matter... but that is why Du'uma Fiisi has made this offer. Already we have received a transmission through our intermediaries that is being investigated for authenticity. Fly free. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.08.22 18:45:00 - [30] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Stitcher And what gives YOU the right to behave exactly like them? My favorite IGS blowhard, so good of you to weigh in. I'm used to pilots dodging the question less blatantly than that. At least you're forthright. I was not, however, being facetious. you're acting exactly like the worst kind of Amarrian. if imitation genuinely is a sincere form of flattery, then you are heartily singing the praises of the Empire this second. I do not expect you to even listen to me, however, much less understand. you are a tyrant, a fool and an embodiment of everything that the Minmatar should fear becoming. I should have known that my opening challenge to you was a waste of time when I wrote it. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.22 19:07:00 - [31] Edited by: Havohej on 22/08/2009 19:06:41 Originally by: Stitcher Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Stitcher And what gives YOU the right to behave exactly like them? My favorite IGS blowhard, so good of you to weigh in. I'm used to pilots dodging the question less blatantly than that. At least you're forthright. The Thukker-Sebiestor's chest trembles with laughter he struggles to contain. Dodging the question? Why, pilot, to 'dodge' your questions would require that I respected you or your opinions at all. In short, I don't... so I didn't really give it any serious consideration - I didn't see a need to answer it. Now he chuckles openly, saying to someone just off screen, "That Hakatain guy, what a card..." before the transmission terminates. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2009.08.22 19:47:00 - [32] Originally by: Stitcher you are a tyrant, a fool and an embodiment of everything that the Minmatar should fear becoming. Now this raises an interesting question: should the Minmatar indeed fear becoming like Mr. Havohej, and, if so, why? The Gallente embrace diversity, or at least they used to. It's less convenient now. The Caldari tolerate it disapprovingly; being jaalan can seriously hurt your chances for promotion, if only because placing malcontents in a position to spread discord is not a good idea from the megacorps' managerial perspective, but dissenters and nonconformists are broadly tolerated if not actually embraced. Then again, the State has recently undergone severe upheaval that may have had a form of cultural corruption as one of its roots: creeping individualism, much of it imported from the Federation. The Amarr seem to really dislike diversity beyond their cultural norms, and actively crush it where it crosses outside of accepted bounds. Of course, of all empires outside the Jove, theirs has had the greatest longevity. How should any of us treat those we consider to speak with the voice of the enemy? Mr. Havohej's answer seems straightforward enough: crush them. So: is he wrong?
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.08.22 21:44:00 - [33] Wrong? That's for history and the spirits to decide. The best I can do is judge him to be a hypocrite who fights for "freedom" with his hands while his feet ruthlessly kick freedom in the ribs. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Seriphyn Inhonores Gallente Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.22 23:40:00 - [34] Religious persecution? Nice.
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2009.08.22 23:57:00 - [35] Originally by: Stitcher Wrong? That's for history and the spirits to decide. The best I can do is judge him to be a hypocrite who fights for "freedom" with his hands while his feet ruthlessly kick freedom in the ribs. Now there's a dodge I didn't expect from you, Verin. One of the fun things about history and the spirits is that we're constituent parts of both.
KillJoy Tseng Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.23 00:45:00 - [36] All right, let's look at a few points here. First, rule of law. Ever heard of it? As much as I may not much like this "crusade" either, they immigrated legally, are allowed to practice whatever faith they want, and all the rest. And guess what; this hasn't changed under Shakor. Or would you really like, say, practices and rites that are and aren't legal to be dictated by whoever's in power? Second, by throwing this out, you're doing more to support their cause than they would have ever accomplished. That people are seeing it as such a threat that they're willing to go against our own laws to hunt out remnants of a crusade that was more or less doomed at the unlawful death of a skilled orator in charge of it... are you that insecure in our ways? Do you think us that weak?
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.23 01:28:00 - [37] Originally by: KillJoy Tseng All right, let's look at a few points here. First, rule of law. Ever heard of it? As much as I may not much like this "crusade" either, they immigrated legally, are allowed to practice whatever faith they want, and all the rest. And guess what; this hasn't changed under Shakor. Or would you really like, say, practices and rites that are and aren't legal to be dictated by whoever's in power? Second, by throwing this out, you're doing more to support their cause than they would have ever accomplished. That people are seeing it as such a threat that they're willing to go against our own laws to hunt out remnants of a crusade that was more or less doomed at the unlawful death of a skilled orator in charge of it... are you that insecure in our ways? Do you think us that weak? To assume that the 'rule of law' is superior in judgement to yourself is not only intellectually lazy, it is morally dishonest and ultimately a cop-out; a means by which one may shirk responsibility for their and their peoples' well being, foisting it off instead on the government. Look at how well that worked out for the Republic up to and including Midular the Appeaser's regime, and look at how far the Minmatar people have come since someone mustered the strength to take initiative and deliver the Minmatar from the oppression by proxy that was Karin Midular. What if the Elder's hadn't acted and Sanmatar Shakor hadn't taken control of the Republic, simply because it was 'illegal'? As to 'supporting their cause'... by continuing to practice slavery, the Amarr Empire gives credence and support to our cause. What's your point? I have little patience for rhetorical arguments and circular logic, Mister Tseng... at the end of the day, they don't mean anything. But what does mean something is another Minmatar being persuaded to take up the religious yoke of the slaver. The Empire's religious insurrection, in the forum of Abel Jarek's so-called crusade does not carry with it the heat of tachyon beams, but it is no less an attack on our people and our well-being. It is the instability of this age that makes it possible for their lies to take root in the minds of our people and it is wrong for the strong among us to ignore our kinfolk as they sink in the mire just because the government hasn't passed a law permitting us to help them. I understand your position; Electus Matari has a long-standing history of doing what they feel is best for the Minmatar Republic by the letter of its laws and if I did not respect you for it, I wouldn't have ever pursued a positive relationship with you. Du'uma Fiisi, however, is in the process of establishing a similar history... of doing what we feel is best for the Minmatar people, whether the Republic's laws and politicians approve of our means or not. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
KillJoy Tseng Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.23 02:15:00 - [38] So you're telling me, in effect, that your judgement is superior to that of the clan and tribal heads who decide the policies of the Republic? That your vision for what the Republic should be is clearer than that of Shakor or anyone else? Pull the other one. The rule of law is there for a reason; in this instance, there's the minor factor that by the exact same reasoning I, or anyone else, could start having Matari citizens killed. Shall I start wondering about the safety of myself or my corpmates; after all, who knows what bounties you're talking to people about in private? How far, would you say, have we come? In this proxy war, our staunchest ally's systems are being put up for sale to Caldari megacorporations, and two of our own systems are likewise "occupied". Through the strike by the so called Elder Fleet, we burned most of a previously unknown force in a one-off strike, lost most of the Defiants as well... to rescue a few thousands of a tribe thought lost and who have so lost their traditions that many of them still cling to the Amarrian faith (and will you be offering bounties on them as well?) at the cost of... oh, I think by now we're probably well into the hundreds of millions of crew.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.23 02:30:00 - [39] Originally by: KillJoy Tseng So you're telling me, in effect, that your judgement is superior to that of the clan and tribal heads who decide the policies of the Republic? That your vision for what the Republic should be is clearer than that of Shakor or anyone else? I'm telling you, in effect, that politicians are limited by external pressures; anything Sanmatar Shakor says or does in an official capacity must by its nature be held to the scrutiny of the other nation states - for good or ill. Du'uma Fiisi is not limited by such pressures. Originally by: KillJoy Tseng Shall I start wondering about the safety of myself or my corpmates; after all, who knows what bounties you're talking to people about in private? If Electus Matari pilots began practicing the slaver's faith en masse, then diplomatic contact would be made and we would discuss the best course of action for our organizations' relationship. I doubt such an unfortunate circumstance would ever come to pass, however... for all that -EM- might be too wrapped up in doing whatever the government says for my tastes, you're also firm, loyal Minmatar (and friends). Originally by: KillJoy Tseng How far, would you say, have we come? Through the strike by the so called Elder Fleet, we burned most of a previously unknown force in a one-off strike, lost most of the Defiants as well... to rescue a few thousands of a tribe thought lost and who have so lost their traditions that many of them still cling to the Amarrian faith (and will you be offering bounties on them as well?) at the cost of... oh, I think by now we're probably well into the hundreds of millions of crew. The Amarrians have lost people as well; you don't think their entire crews are comprised of slave laborers, do you? What the Elders did was they saw the remaining tribes fractured, with leaders who were unwilling to stand up because Amarrian gold was filling their coffers. They saw a Minmatar people powerless to stand up for themselves because for so long our own leaders had held us down. So they stood up for us. And now, it is up to us to remain standing, not to allow the Amarrians to send preachers with Minmatar faces to plant and cultivate the seeds of their slaver's faith and win a quiet cultural victory where so many of our people believe in their scriptures that there will be nobody left to fight them when the slave ships darken our skies again. You fight the slaver's influence your way... we'll fight it our way. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Anabella Rella Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.23 07:06:00 - [40] Edited by: Anabella Rella on 23/08/2009 07:10:34 Originally by: Havohej You fight the slaver's influence your way... we'll fight it our way. I'm afraid that doing things your way will lead us down a dark path we dare not tread, Pilot. When fighting monsters we should guard against becoming the very thing we fight against.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.23 07:08:00 - [41] Fortunately, there are those of us who dare. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Anabella Rella Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.23 07:14:00 - [42] I'm not sure that I care for your insinuation Pilot, but I'll leave this alone.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.23 07:23:00 - [43] Edited by: Havohej on 23/08/2009 07:24:06 The Thukker-Sebiestor chuckles. I've insinuated nothing; you say you don't dare take the actions that we are taking and I said fortunately there are those who do. Those words have but one definition, pilot, there's no use in trying to twist them to create conflict where there is none. I said very clearly what I think and feel about Electus Matari in my replies to Pilot Tseng - that is, that I understand and respect -EM-'s unwillingness to go against Republic Law; please don't attempt to stir up drama by implying otherwise. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer*
Crevo Helion Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.23 13:49:00 - [44] Edited by: Crevo Helion on 23/08/2009 13:54:21 Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Crevo Helion Mr. Havohej, what are your motivations behind this æbounty huntingÆ? Revenge? Bloodlust? To burn out the cancer that is spreading among our people. You donÆt have much faith in the Minmatar people do you? I think they know what is good for them, and what is not. Do you really think this æcancerÆ will spread much further than some small township on Matar? If youÆre bitten by a mosquito, are you going to burn away all the surrounding flesh just to æcleanseÆ it? Originally by: Havohej Really? You're not paying attention. As reported by the Scope: Minmatar Converts Deeply Concerned by Jarek Killing, Political Rights Demanded. They're becoming 'increasingly vocal' demanding political rights now, you fool! It didn't end with Jarek's death. It won't end until all of those who would preach the slaver's religion of oppression to our children are purged. Did you actually read that (3 week old) report? Originally by: ISD Nestor Pelagius/The Scope Minmatar converts to the Amarrian faith have become increasingly vocal about their fears and grievances in the days since the murder of Abel Jarek, leader of the Salvation Crusade, by unknown attackers in the religious township he established near ancestral Krusual lands on Matar. Soàsome misguided people decide they want to follow this Abel Jarek. They join him in this religious township. Their leader is killed by masked gunmen, they are harassed and persecuted and they believe their lives are in danger as well. And youÆre shocked that they are speaking up about their fears and asking the Republic they live in to defend their right to freedom of religion? I may not have liked Abel Jarek or what he preached. But I do have a duty to protect the rights of all Matari citizens, despite what they personally believe. Originally by: ISD Nestor Pelagius/The Scope While members of the Salvation Crusade were highly-visible, the majority of Minmatar followers of the Amarrian religion have sought to remain unobtrusive and keep their faith a private matter. Yeah, that sounds pretty scary to meà Originally by: Havohej I envy you your prettied up mental image of a safe, secure, peaceful republic but the reality is we're not safe from the slaver yet. IÆm going to ignore this statement based on the fact that you do not know me, or my background, and are purely speculating on what you think my æmental imageÆ of the Republic is. Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Crevo Helion Originally by: Havohej What gave Abel Jarek the right to preach the slaver's religion to our free children in our cities on our worlds? The same freedom that gives you the right to preach against his words. Nonsense; nobody is free to preach the slaver's religion (which is the basis for the slaver's justification of slavery itself!) to Minmatar children on Minmatar worlds. Nobody. If this is what you believe, then bring it to the attention of our leaders the appropriate way and not through pointless headhunting. Originally by: Havohej Clothing can't enslave a third of our race (indeed, our entire race at one time). That you would even make that comment says to me that you don't understand the danger Jarek's little religious insurrection poses to our people; it is because of Minmatar like you that Jarek was able to gain a foothold at all. From what IÆve seen, his little religious insurrection is about as dangerous as Amarrian clothing is. Are his beliefs being forced upon me? No. Are his beliefs being forced into our government? No. Are his beliefs being forced upon anyone? No. Show me the real and immediate danger this poses and IÆll stand beside you. Otherwise, IÆll continue to put my time, effort, and ISK into combating the real threats to my people.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.23 15:53:00 - [45] That's all good and well and I would love to continue to argue right and wrong with you, but I'm afraid I have an official statement to release...
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.23 15:57:00 - [46] As the feed comes alive, the viewer is presented with the Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics logo. A narrator says... "At approximately 02:00 hours Y111.08.21, a Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics call center received a message from someone claiming eligibility for the one million ISK offer extended by the corporation. After a thorough background check, this individual was contacted and given instructions to meet with a representative in person to discuss the matter in depth." The Du'uma Fiisi trademark is replaced by a series of still photos. The first image is of a small gathering of people in what seems to be a small room in some kind of industrial building, possibly a factory or warehouse; judging by the slightly elevated perspective, the viewer is able to infer that the photograph was taken through a window. It is poorly lit, this gathering clearly conducted in secrecy. There are no more than a dozen, gathered before a figure standing behind a podium on a raised dais. The figure to whom the audience raptly listens is clothed in a flowing robe cut in the traditional style of Amarrian clergy, though not as ornately decorated. Although the robe's hood casts his face in shadow, the clergyman's right fist is upraised giving the viewer the impression that he is making some dramatic, stirring point or another. After 20 seconds, the focus begins to zoom in on one particular face in the crowd. The new focus is a Minmatar man, Vherokior judging by his features and perhaps in his early twenties. The narrator continues... S'sor Dukath. A student enrolled at Republic University majoring in Theology and minoring in Political Science. Son of a factory worker and a seamstress, born and raised in Ingunn. Practitioner of the Amarrian faith. As the narrative proceeds, this original image is replaced first by another image taken through the same window, this time of the congregation breaking up. It is still not possible to make out the preacher's face beneath his hooded robe. The next photo shows the people filing out into a dark alley, visible only by the light spilling out through the building's open door. The fourth image in the series shows the S'sor Dukath getting into a late model 4x6; the first 5 digits of the MRDPV (Minmatar Republic Department of Planetary Vehicles) plate are visible. The next image shows what appears to be the same vehicle in front of an apartment building that it's unlikely a struggling college student would be able to afford. A sixth image shows the same vehicle from the rear, this time with the entire license plate visible and S'sor Dukath's MRDPV file overlaid verifying that this is in fact his 4x6. "The claimant asserted that Mister Dukath was not only a student interested in the Amarrian faith, but that his schooling was also being funded by investors within the Amarr Empire. The claimant believed that Dukath's choice of major and minor made him particularly interesting to the Amarr, expressing their opinion that in a few years, after graduating with a degree in Theology, a native educated* Minmatar taking up the Amarrian Church's cause would be quite a cultural victory for the Empire. As a matter of due diligence, Du'uma Fiisi launched a discrete probe into S'sor Dukath's college funding via an intermediary; while we did not find anything incriminating in his financial records at the university, we didn't expect to and it didn't matter. We had verified his identity through the MRDPV and the claimant presented clear photographic evidence of his involvement with the Salvation Crusade's religious insurrection." A final image: S'sor Dukath tied to a chair in what seems to be a posh living room. His face is bruised. There is a wicked gash across his throat and the front of his shirt is soaked in blood. "By the time this reaches the Summit, the claimant has received 1M ISK in untraceable bearer bonds issued by several reputable corporations." "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer*
Crevo Helion Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.23 16:22:00 - [47] Originally by: Havohej That's all good and well and I would love to continue to argue right and wrong with you, but I'm afraid I have an official statement to release... Convenient... Well I hope you enjoy your second-hand murder. Doesn't get much more pathetic than that.
Kazuma Ry Amarr Ebon Seraph	Posted - 2009.08.23 17:00:00 - [48] Originally by: Havohej images of a poor man murdered While I most likely will be ignored, I must say that senseless death of a young man, even Minmatar is disturbing since he was practicing in private, not hurting anyone. Mr Havohej, your methods will not stop this, it will only make them more vocal, make them demand for protection from the Minmatar government, and ultimately, you will be the one that is cast as being evil.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.23 17:05:00 - [49] We've got plenty of first-hand blood on our hands as well. It wasn't about 'conveniently' avoiding your remarks - truth be told, I know that we are not going to convince -EM- that it's time to stop clinging to the rule of law and trusting that the Republic's political figures will do the right thing. Just as I'm sure you know that you're not going to convince us to put our trust and faith in the politicians as you do. And since I've already made it quite clear that I understand and respect Electus Matari's position, there's really no point in arguing back and forth with you about whether this is 'right' or not; if we didn't feel it was right, we would not be doing it. But this topic isn't about Du'uma Fiisi or Electus Matari; this topic is about the Minmatar people and Du'uma Fiisi is heartened that we have been able to make good on our offer at least once. We hope that seeing a responsible Minmatar being able to step forward and do his civic duty without fear of undue legal repercussions will embolden other strong, loyal Minmatar to do their part. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Kazuma Ry Amarr Ebon Seraph	Posted - 2009.08.23 17:22:00 - [50] Originally by: Havohej The more vocal they become... the more they show themselves... the more our people will be confronted with the truth of the threat they represent. The threat of being peaceful, threat of just wishing to practice in peace. The only thing your people will see is how they are being persecuted by their own kin. That their freedoms are being removed by bullies and thugs that claim to know better then their own government.
Alica Wildfire Minmatar Federal Investigations Agency	Posted - 2009.08.23 17:48:00 - [51] I won't react to this act of cowardly murder until official media confirm this. I said this will have personal consequences for me if something like this happens. Until then I handle it as a bad joke. One that befudges the image of the Republic and helps the Amarr with their propaganda. -- FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.23 18:11:00 - [52] Originally by: Alica Wildfire I won't react to this act of cowardly murder until official media confirm this. I said this will have personal consequences for me if something like this happens. Until then I handle it as a bad joke. One that befudges the image of the Republic and helps the Amarr with their propaganda. Are you implying a threat toward my corporation, pilot? "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.23 19:15:00 - [53] IÆm not sure I understand why this person's bleating about God is such a big deal. Why does this planetboundÆs little life and his followers matter?
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.23 21:42:00 - [54] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss IÆm not sure I understand why this person's bleating about God is such a big deal. Why does this planetboundÆs little life and his followers matter? Because it doesn't matter how many Amarrian capsuleer ships are destroyed in space if we allow our people to lose what's left of their sense of self; if they can achieve cultural victory on the ground by subverting what half-remembered remnants of Minmatar culture and tradition survived through a thousand years in chains by converting hungry, young idealists the the slaver's faith, then it's all for nothing. I can't be the only one who understands just how close our culture came to extinction. The Elders understood the danger. The Defiants understood the danger. Sanmatar Shakor understands the danger; whether or not his seat of power is stable enough to do anything about it remains to be seen and likely won't be known until the Tribal Assembly is able to convene. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Gottii Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.24 03:17:00 - [55] Havohej, its not just that we disagree with you just on legal, moral and ethical grounds, which we do, its that we also disagree with your actions because youre hurting the Minmatar cause and aiding the Amarr. You're acting exactly as the Empress and her cronies hoped you would when they sent Jarek off to die into Republic space. Don't you think the Amarr knew they damn well that Jarek would almost certain suffer violence and quite likely death when they indoctriated him with their nonsense and sent him into Republic space? Don't you think they knew there are more than enough angry and desperate Minmatar in the Republic to practically guarantee that Jarek would suffer some kind of violence once he goaded them on? Why do you think his mission got so much media attention in the first place? They sent Jarek into Republic space as a PR stunt, with a virtual target on his back, to "prove" that the Minmatar are hypocritical, vengeful and uncivilized. They WANTED him to suffer violence, preferably killed, and if his followers suffered, all the better. Because it made the Minmatar the bad guys, it fed into their world view, it justified their actions, and it alienated our allies. And now, not only did their tool meet his preferred end, youre giving their victory added emphasis. And thus youve become an Amarrian tool as well... So thats our problem with your actions Havohej, its not that they're just unethical and evil, its that they're clumsy and stupid and hurt the Minmatar people while aiding our enemy. Youve given the Amarr exactly what they wanted, allowed yourself to be manipulated into carrying out the Empress's whim, become the "mindless ape" they preach that we are. I thought you would have enough of Minmatar carrying out Amarrian wishes...
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.24 03:29:00 - [56] Originally by: Gottii to "prove" that the Minmatar are hypocritical, vengeful and uncivilized. It's only hypocritical if you choose to speak one path and act another. Du'uma Fiisi acts the same path it speaks: the Minmatar people will not tolerate the slaver's religion any longer. To let you tell it, the best way to beat the Amarr in their little plot is to pick up my own copy of Pax Amarrifilth and start attending these little religious services myself to prove them wrong? 'Cause if we just stand by and let them preach the superiority of the Amarr and their 'god' to our next generation then we might as well go all the way and surrender to them altogether. It is for politicians to worry about the schemes and plots of other politicians; this is why I have expressed my concern that Sanmatar Shakor, while in no way as weak in his motivation has Midular the Appeaser was, might still be forced to make compromises for the sake of the Republic's military security by way of long-standing political connections - with the Federation, for example. Let the Republic do what the Republic must... let the people do what the people must; nothing 'mindless' about it. At this point, I'll say again what I've been saying to Electus Matari's pilots this entire time: we must agree to disagree as to how our people's struggle must be fought. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.08.24 07:40:00 - [57] If there is one thing I hate about being a capsuleer, it's how impotent we are to actually do anything about monsters like Havohej here. What's to be done? Shooting him won't work, he'll just come back, angrier than ever before. The most painful wound pilots ever feel is damage to our wallets, and even that will be repaired with time. Iif I could kill this idiot, permanently, then I would. I cannot. The only recourse open, therefore, is debate, and he exists in that frustrating category of being simultaneously too blind, too extreme in his ideals, too arrogant and too stupid for that to have a hope in hell of working. I refuse to waste my time on it any longer. My advice to those who stand opposed to this man is simple: fight money with money. another bounty on the head of any individual who claims the Du'uma Fiisi bounty sounds like a good start. I'd do it myself, but it would seem that I am an enemy of the Republic right now, and could credibly be called an ally of the Amarr - not the best person to be offering such bounties in this circumstance, I feel. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.24 07:53:00 - [58] Originally by: Stitcher I refuse to waste my time on it any longer. And yet, here you are. Originally by: Stitcher My advice to those who stand opposed to this man is simple: fight money with money. another bounty on the head of any individual who claims the Du'uma Fiisi bounty sounds like a good start. Have fun identifying our claimants, whose identities you may have noticed we are taking great pains to protect. Why don't you cut straight to the source, though, and place a bounty on my own head? After all, you seem to think that I'm the root of all this evil. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
lucifers widow 3rd Kador lancers	Posted - 2009.08.24 10:08:00 - [59] Originally by: Havohej Have fun identifying our claimants, whose identities you may have noticed we are taking great pains to protect. Why don't you cut straight to the source, though, and place a bounty on my own head? After all, you seem to think that I'm the root of all this evil. So someone murders an random person who was pictured in the crowd at a particular religious event, with no more evidience than that someone was tied to a chair and tortured to death and then you protect the identity of the victims assailant from the Matari justice system ? I think you are on very thin ice indeed, must just be a matter of time before the proper authorities get fed up of you making martyr's out of Amarrian students. You are doing more harm than all the Amarrian religious fanatics in history have ever done to the Matari cause and we Amarrians thank you for that
Simon Coal Gallente The Grass Spiders	Posted - 2009.08.24 11:37:00 - [60] Havohej, you seem like a murderous jerk. I hope you wake up more grounded some day. Originally by: Stitcher And what gives YOU the right to behave exactly like them? This is normally where I'd jump in to needle your conscience, but I'm starting to think we're shoulder to shoulder on some of this stuff. So much for knee-jerk reactions. Originally by: Aria Jenneth One of the fun things about history and the spirits is that we're constituent parts of both. This is an aside, but I'd like to say that when you're not being a terrifying post-human pirate goddess, you seem very wise to me.
Hooch Flux Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.24 12:29:00 - [61] Havohej, why your at it why don't you have this kids Professors investigated and killed? I mean they obviously got him into this, or what about his fellow students they could be involved too... Hell, may as well start having people killed at random, your sure to catch others who may disagree with something you think! I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit... Only way to be sure!
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.24 15:38:00 - [62] Originally by: lucifers widow Amarrian students You're not paying attention. Originally by: Hooch Flux Havohej, why your at it why don't you have this kids Professors investigated and killed? I mean they obviously got him into this, or what about his fellow students they could be involved too... What makes you think we aren't investigating them as persons of interest? Unfortunately, there are simply too many students to investigate with the resources available to us without drawing attention to our agents. We would like to take this time to note that we place particular value on the leaders of these little slaver prayer groups and as such will double the reward for Salvation Crusade preachers. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Hooch Flux Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.24 15:59:00 - [63] Originally by: Havohej What makes you think we aren't investigating them as persons of interest? Unfortunately, there are simply too many students to investigate with the resources available to us without drawing attention to our agents. We would like to take this time to note that we place particular value on the leaders of these little slaver prayer groups and as such will double the reward for Salvation Crusade preachers. No reason, just confirming! I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit... Only way to be sure!
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.08.24 18:14:00 - [64] Edited by: Sky Grunthor on 24/08/2009 18:15:30 Despite the manner in which he prosecutes the war with the Amarr empire, Havoheh does have a very valid point. Amarr aggression is both an aggression of military and cultural power. The battlefront is not only in the skies or on the planets below between ground troops but also within the hearts and minds of our own people. Abel Jarek was as much a weapon as the Terran weapon fired off by Sarum. One cause physical destruction, the other caused spiritual destruction. They where both aimed at the Matari people. Objects and people are far easier to combat than ideas however. Don't get me wrong, this is not an endorsement of Havahej's methods nor the killing of Abel Jarek. But... Do these actions really hurt the Minmatar cause? Don't be ridiculous, of course they don't. One evil does not make another evil right or just. It is merely another evil. And truthfully, while the legality of Du'uma Fiisi's actions are not in question, the rightness of them, the justice of them... I'm not so sure. We are at war, and the moralities of war are different from peacetime. Murder isn't always murder during prosecution of a war. The question is, was this Murder or was this the killing of the enemy? I do not know. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor
Gottii Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.24 18:36:00 - [65] You're right Grunthor, we are at war, and on many levels its a war of ideas and propaganda. The idea we are most at war with is that the Minmatar are barbaric and subhuman and need to be controlled for our own good and for the good of those around us. Call me crazy, but I think the best way to fight the idea that the Tribes are barbaric and subhuman is to not act in a barbaric and subhuman way. Killing Jarek's former followers will do nothing to combat the central ideas were at war with, in fact it would strengthen it.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.24 18:45:00 - [66] Originally by: Gottii You're right Grunthor, we are at war, and on many levels its a war of ideas and propaganda. The idea we are most at war with is that the Minmatar are barbaric and subhuman and need to be controlled for our own good and for the good of those around us. Call me crazy, but I think the best way to fight the idea that the Tribes are barbaric and subhuman is to not act in a barbaric and subhuman way. Killing Jarek's former followers will do nothing to combat the central ideas were at war with, in fact it would strengthen it. I will not have a manual for behavioral culture dictated to me by the expectations of the Amarr Empire or anyone else. That you are so concerned with earning the approval and good opinion of the slavers is sad. I care nothing for the opinions of the Empire or their slaves and allies. I care for the impressionable young Minmatar who might be persuaded by these religious insurrectionists that the slaver's religion really is the one true way and that submission to the superiority of the Amarr is the correct path. As Minmatar, we should all be so concerned. The idea we are most at war with as a people is NOT that we are subhuman barbarians; as a Minmatar you should even give that Amarr trash a second thought - the rest of civilized New Eden outside of the Empire and its religion of slavery, the Mandate and the Khanid Kingdom (which all might as well be one and the same, to be quite bloody honest) knows there's nothing "subhuman" about our people. No, the idea we are most at war with is the idea that the slaver's religion most espouses: that the Amarrians are superior to all of the rest of Humanity and that submission and service to them as slaves as dictated by their god figure is the way to salvation. THAT is the idea that we are most at war with and THAT is the idea these religious insurrectionists are trying to teach our peoples' children! But you don't even recognize the danger your Republic and our people are in. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
lucifers widow 3rd Kador lancers	Posted - 2009.08.24 19:01:00 - [67] Originally by: Havohej S'sor Dukath. A student enrolled at Republic University majoring in Theology and minoring in Political Science. Son of a factory worker and a seamstress, born and raised in Ingunn. Practitioner of the Amarrian faith. The claimant asserted that Mister Dukath was not only a student interested in the Amarrian faith, but that his schooling was also being funded by investors within the Amarr Empire. Oh I was paying attention.
Gottii Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.24 19:23:00 - [68] I see exactly the danger my people are in. Minmatar who believe like you. You're as much a slave as any still trapped in the Empire. Hasn't it dawned on you that the three Brutor from EM arguing with you are all Slave Children, and have actually suffered slavery's pain through something more than second-hand accounts? Spare me your outrage. You're paying for the murder your own wayward kinsman, mostly likely young, poor and uneducated, simply because they were duped by a charismatic charlatan who fed and sheltered them. Are so you that afraid that mere words can drive you to the murder of your own kin? Those kin who are obviously the most vulnerable of us? Have you that weak of a heart? What Im fighting is the Amarrian want to strip from us our humanity. Slavery is the refusal to acknowledge another's humanity, to strip another of his identity. In your case they've succeeded admirably. I pity you for the same reasons I pity Jarek's followers, all of you have had what it is to be Minmatar stolen from you by the robed ones and their lies. I pity too your ancestors, the generations who suffered in bondage, for the family lines and traditions they sacrificed to maintain you now stain with kinslaying. You've let the Amarr convince you to throw away your loyalty to kin, clan and Tribe. And to do that makes you something less than Minmatar. The Amarr want you to be a murderer, and like the dutiful slave you are, you carry out your masters' wishes. You're right, we will have to agree to disagree.
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.08.24 19:32:00 - [69] I do not know why we Matar continue to judge our actions by what the Amarr want or think. Please excuse me, but who give a flying slavish hound what the Amarr think of us. They have already made their decision. By continuing to fall prey to the argument of "don't do it because they want you to do it" YOU are making yourself a slave to them by thought. In this Havohej is in the right. Our morality is not based upon what the Amarr say or think of us. It sickens me to hear that drivel. And no that is not a defense of Havohej, it is a task taking to slavish thought being practiced. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor
Gottii Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.24 19:43:00 - [70] You dont get it, Grunthor. Im not doing anything because of the Amarr, one way or another. To be Minmatar is to defend your people, and maintain oath to kin and clan. So thats what we do.
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.08.24 19:53:00 - [71] Originally by: Gottii You dont get it, Grunthor. Im not doing anything because of the Amarr, one way or another. To be Minmatar is to defend your people, and maintain oath to kin and clan. So thats what we do. Apologies Gottii, that was not directed towards you personally. I do get it. However, your arguments and others are structured in a way that reflects my objection. This may be unintentional and I may be over reading them, but that is how I read them. When someone says don't do something because it plays into the Amarr hands, and that is all they are saying, then that comment is worthless. Do or do not do something because it is right and worthwhile or necessary in itself, not for any consideration of whether that will make the Amarr think we are barbaric or not. And your wrong, it is not a war against the Amarr's thought of us being barbaric (paraphrased), its a war against the Amarr enslaving us. I would be happy to have them think us barbaric for a thousand years if they would respect our freedom and sovereignty. I would be happy to be a barbaric as it is necessary to be in order to free my brethren and ensure my childrens continued freedom. I would kill a thousand Abel Jareks if it ensured that the cancer of the Amarr empire left me and mine alone. As I do not believe that is all necessary, I do what I think is necessary. But in the end, how the Amarr think of me and my people has no bearing on my decisions. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor
Gottii Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.24 20:27:00 - [72] Edited by: Gottii on 24/08/2009 20:30:50 Edited by: Gottii on 24/08/2009 20:28:24 My argument is this Grunthor. We are Minmatar. We are loyal to tribe and kin and clan. We help our kin who need it, we instruct those who are ignorant. We look to our clan and tribe, and own clan and tribe looks to us. To do otherwise is to be less than Minmatar. I will not let them make me less than Minmatar. What do I care about the words that come from Jarek's mouth? Yes, he preaches nonsense, but they are words. It wasnt the missionaries the Amarr sent that enslaved our people in the past, it was the so-called Golden Fleet and their cowardly surprise attack. Are Jarek's words and ideas troubling? Certainly, but I think you and Havohej are forgetting something. These fools preached at us before. There is nothing new to their lies. For over ten centuries, they preached to us. Under their lash, under their thumb, every day. Our food was dependent upon reciting back the proper passage, they would whip us if we couldn't name the right saint, for us to sing to their false view of divinity. And even then...we...did...not...break. We did not buy the lies. We are here. We are still the Tribes. We still have many of our traditions. We are used to brushing aside the lies of false prophets, for it is what we have done for over a millennium. Do those of weak mind follow them? Of course, but if it wasnt the Amarrian "faith", it would be the Angel's drugs, True Sansha's seductive inhumanity, or only spirts know what. If they follow, it is because of the weakness in their mind or lack of proper teachings, not because of the strength of the message. It is the way of things that we have to face such trials as individuals. Some fail. But we, as a people, have not. Nor will we ever. And if they are weak of mind and chose to repeat Amarrian lies, then they need instruction, perhaps even punishment. But I will not treat them as an enemy because of the nonsense that fills their head, a nonsense that was planted in their heads by our enemy, because our enemy hoped it would make us what they want us to be. Jarek threatened us with a blunted knife, his preachings are a worn knife that wasnt able to kill us off for over a thousand years, no matter how many times they stabbed us with it. Do you really think Jarek would be more persuasive than a thousand year sermon delievered to a literal captive audience? I fight the only things that can truly enslave our people again. One is the Golden Fleet and CVA and P.I.E. and their ilk. The other is that we allow ourselves to lose ourselves to hatred and vengence, to believe that being Minmatar has anything at all to do with the Amarr. The Amarr are just another evil and hardship in this world to overcome, no more and no less. I will not be so scared and frightened of them that I kill my very kinsman because he repeats the failed and weak words my ancestors heard preached to them for generations. If our ancestors could endure listening to it and not become less than Minmatar, we owe it to them and ourselves not to do the same. Mere words didnt steal their heart, it shouldnt ours. And murdering our kin certainly makes us less than Minmatar...
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.24 21:00:00 - [73] Originally by: Gottii You've let the Amarr convince you to throw away your loyalty to kin, clan and Tribe. On the contrary. It is because of my loyalty to kin, clan and Tribe (rather than to the Republic government and laws) that I have chosen to do what needs to be done that others cannot or will not do, whether because of political pressure or unwillingness to risk the 'bad' side of the law. If I have to be a lightning rod for my brethren's rage then so be it - as long as the end result is freedom for the Minmatar people in mind, body and soul. For as long as the slaver's religion is tolerated on our planets, in our cities, that freedom will elude our people no matter how many we manage to free from the Empire's grasp. While Pilot Grunthor does not agree with our means, I think she understands and agrees with the end we hope to achieve through our actions. Everyone keeps saying things like, "You can't do that, they'll think we're barbarians! They'll say we're sub-human! Evil!" The Republic needs people like me. You need people like me so you can point your fingers and say, "That's the bad guy." So what does that make you (not you, specifically Gottii/-EM-)? You, who would allow the insurrectionists to teach our children how to properly submit to the Empire? What does that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie. Me, I don't have that problem. Me, I always tell the truth. Even when I lie. But I'm not unreasonable, Gottii. You speak of a desire to protect our people, but you can't agree with the methods that Du'uma Fiisi has chosen. Okay, a suggestion then. Maybe Electus Matari can allocate some resources to fight the problem from the opposite direction. Maybe Electus Matari or anyone else who disagrees with the way we have chosen to deal with the problem can set up and fund their own propaganda campaign to expose for our young people the lies in the slaver's faith. Save who you can using the same weapon the Amarr are using: ideas. The rest, the ones who are already so deeply held by the slaver's lies, our people will give to us. Perhaps you can pass that idea up -EM-'s chain of command... who knows, with the Electus Matari name behind it maybe such a campaign would even be more successful than the "burn them out like cancer" approach; maybe not. At any rate, it surely wouldn't hurt. Anything is better than ignoring the problem and hoping it rights itself simply because to do otherwise would give the Amarr Empire reason to criticize and scold the Republic and its citizens. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.24 21:37:00 - [74] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 24/08/2009 21:38:18 Originally by: Havohej It is because of my loyalty to kin, clan and Tribe (rather than to the Republic government and laws) Your tribe is loyal to the Republic. Do not try to soothe your conscience by lieing to yourself about how you are loyal to your tribe when you are breaking Republic laws. You aren't. Also, you give more attention to these pitiful fools of Jarek's than they deserve. First and last involvement of myself in this silly thread.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.24 21:44:00 - [75] Edited by: Havohej on 24/08/2009 21:45:21 Originally by: Arkady Sadik Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 24/08/2009 21:38:18 Originally by: Havohej It is because of my loyalty to kin, clan and Tribe (rather than to the Republic government and laws) Your tribe is loyal to the Republic. Do not try to soothe your conscience by lieing to yourself about how you are loyal to your tribe when you are breaking Republic laws. You aren't. Also, you give more attention to these pitiful fools of Jarek's than they deserve. First and last involvement of myself in this silly thread. There are many Minmatar who've posted in this topic the sentiment that it is more 'loyal' to let the religious insurgents spread their poisonous faith. Who is lying to themselves? The Thukker-Sebiestor coughs to clear his throat as the transmission ends. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer*
Vikarion Caldari White Rose Society	Posted - 2009.08.24 23:56:00 - [76] The Amarr enslaved the Minmatar, we know this to be true. You are killing Minmatar, we know this also to be true. Why? The Amarr did what they did because they believed that they had the responsibility to induct the Matari into the kingdom of god. If this takes a few lives, a bit of warfare, very well. The Matari at large do not understand what they need, so the Amarr will do what is necessary for them. It is for the good of the Minmatar. They do not know what is best for them, so the Amarr do it. And Matari die. You do what you do because you believe that you have the responsibility to safeguard the religion, culture, and nation of the Minmatar. If this takes a few lives, a bit of warfare, very well. The Matari at large do not understand what they need, so you will do what is necessary for them. They do not know what is best for them, so you do it. And Matari die. There were many other ways to attack the ideals of Abel Jarek, but you chose none of them. You chose the most violent means possible, and clothed it in the colors of your nation. You betray your country. You are Amarr. This is your spirit, your defining force: tyranny, control, arrogance. If men like you are allowed to define or control the Matari, you will crush their spirit more than the Amarr ever could. Tyrant.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 00:08:00 - [77] Originally by: Vikarion the colors of your nation I haven't got the time to go back and count how many times I have said, very plainly, that Du'uma Fiisi does what it does for our people, not for the Republic government. Anyway, remarks like yours are why we chose the "burn them out like cancer" approach. It doesn't matter what verbal argument one takes up against the slaver's rhetoric, the slaver will turn it against you - it's what he does. When we realized how concerned we were as a people with the opinions of the slaver and his allies, we finally saw just how deeply he had wounded our people. We finally realized that we were continuing in Midular the Appeaser's footsteps, begging for the slaver's approval and "good will." People like you would have us sit on our hands, because it is the 'proper, polite thing to do' in the eyes of the slaver. If we do that, the slaver wins. But if we do what Du'uma Fiisi is doing, and remove the traitors from our midst, then we are forced to kill Minmatar so the slaver wins. You see how rhetoric works? It's pretty interesting that way, how you can take any set of words and make them sound favorable to people who care. We used to care... But no longer. At this time, Du'uma Fiisi's intermediaries are investigation a particularly promising lead... "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Vincent Death Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.25 01:22:00 - [78] It continues to amaze me that people deride Jarek and his followers as deluded non-entities who spouted nonsense with one breath and with the other set plans in place to murder them. The proper name for a social system based on political freedom is capitalism.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 01:40:00 - [79] Originally by: Vincent Death It continues to amaze me that people deride Jarek and his followers as deluded non-entities who spouted nonsense with one breath Cite me an instance in which I said anything of the sort. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Lord Maximullis Amarr Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 02:41:00 - [80] Edited by: Lord Maximullis on 25/08/2009 02:46:43 The Matari have fought for hundreds of years to liberate thier brothers enslaved within the Empire. It was only with the Elder Fleet's attack that the Republic has actually made any progress, sinse then the Republic has made little real effort to free the remaining slaves within the Empire, to be honest, the Republic is currently still to unstable to mount a real attack. We at Du'uma Fiisi are dealing with this problem by simply burning out the destabalising elements such as Jarek the fool's Enslavement crusade. Then, once the cancer within has been purged, then the real problem can be properly dealt with.
Vikarion Caldari White Rose Society	Posted - 2009.08.25 04:26:00 - [81] Originally by: Lord Maximullis Edited by: Lord Maximullis on 25/08/2009 02:46:43 The Matari have fought for hundreds of years to liberate thier brothers enslaved within the Empire. It was only with the Elder Fleet's attack that the Republic has actually made any progress, sinse then the Republic has made little real effort to free the remaining slaves within the Empire, to be honest, the Republic is currently still to unstable to mount a real attack. We at Du'uma Fiisi are dealing with this problem by simply burning out the destabalising elements such as Jarek the fool's Enslavement crusade. Then, once the cancer within has been purged, then the real problem can be properly dealt with. Idiocy comes easily to you, doesn't it. The Minmatar Republic isn't trying to free the slaves because it cannot. One-third of the Elder fleet was destroyed personally by Jamyl Sarum. The Amarrian Navy was barely diminished. The success of the Elder fleet was entirely dependent upon surprise. This isn't to say that the effort was not brave or somewhat successful. But many Matari seem to have the idea that since they spit in the face of the lion, the lion must be harmless. Were the Amarrian military actually to cross the border, it is unlikely that the Republic would survive. Only the threat of the Federation, the Nation, the State, and the Blood Raiders attacking during such an invasion is a deterrent...that, and that such a war might well be too costly. But the idea of the Minmatar Republic simply crossing the border en-masse and taking back their kin is simply foolish. The Minmatar ships are weaker, less in number, and their fleet does not possess the logistical capabilities needed. The Minmatar government has placed its future in the hands of its pod pilots. You are the soldiers, you are the invaders and defenders...and so far, you've proved yourselves singularly unable to maintain a strategic advantage. So now, you turn on your own. Well done, fool.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 04:45:00 - [82] He said himself that the Republic is too unstable for such right now, yet you seem not to have comprehended his comments - to whom does idiocy easily come? "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Vikarion Caldari White Rose Society	Posted - 2009.08.25 04:52:00 - [83] Edited by: Vikarion on 25/08/2009 04:52:14 I said "many Minmatar". He is Amarrian. Your court.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 05:04:00 - [84] He is Du'uma Fiisi. Derp. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Vikarion Caldari White Rose Society	Posted - 2009.08.25 06:08:00 - [85] Originally by: Havohej He is Du'uma Fiisi. Derp. Does that involve genetic treatment, or just a faux-family relationship?
lucifers widow 3rd Kador lancers	Posted - 2009.08.25 06:41:00 - [86] Originally by: Havohej He is Du'uma Fiisi. Not a lot to be proud of though is it. Better to be loyal to a empire than a bunch of loons who go around killing people without any solid proof, but then looking at the kill stats for you're rather inept corp suppose you have to make a mark somewhere.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 06:44:00 - [87] We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he today that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile, This day shall gentle his condition; And gentlemen in Matar now-a-bed Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here, And hold their manhoods cheap while any speaks That fought with us against the slaver's faith. But I wouldn't expect you to understand. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 06:46:00 - [88] Originally by: lucifers widow kill stats All bow before the might of 3rd Kador lancers. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Elmo Vormar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 06:52:00 - [89] Originally by: Vikarion Originally by: Havohej He is Du'uma Fiisi. Derp. Does that involve genetic treatment, or just a faux-family relationship? Marius Mullis is more minmatar than other matari will ever be. And if you ask me, every minmatar that helps or agrees with any amarr enslaver can be shot this instant.
Vikarion Caldari White Rose Society	Posted - 2009.08.25 07:33:00 - [90] Originally by: Elmo Vormar Originally by: Vikarion Originally by: Havohej He is Du'uma Fiisi. Derp. Does that involve genetic treatment, or just a faux-family relationship? Marius Mullis is more minmatar than other matari will ever be. And if you ask me, every minmatar that helps or agrees with any amarr enslaver can be shot this instant. Ah, so you do agree that it is not blood, nor culture, nor tribe that makes a man "Minmatar", but whether he agrees with your ideas and ideals. Just like it is not whether a person is Minmatar, or Gallente, or Amarr that determines whether they are worthy of heaven and status within the Empire, but rather whether they agree with the ideals and ideas of the Amarr. Precisely what is the difference here, save who is making the determinations and the minutia of the dogmas?
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 07:45:00 - [91] Originally by: Vikarion Ah, so you do agree that it is not blood, nor culture, nor tribe that makes a man "Minmatar", but whether he agrees with your ideas and ideals. Just like it is not whether a person is Minmatar, or Gallente, or Amarr that determines whether they are worthy of heaven and status within the Empire, but rather whether they agree with the ideals and ideas of the Amarr. Precisely what is the difference here, save who is making the determinations and the minutia of the dogmas? The servants of Amarr that the Federation dubbed "Ammatar" are Minmatar by blood, but they are not Minmatar. I would ask you what your point was, but frankly it doesn't concern me. You seem to be trying very hard to prove... something. Whatever it is, though, it doesn't matter; it's not going to make the slaver's religious insurgency any less of a threat and Du'uma Fiisi is not going to withdraw its offer to continue rewarding the Minmatar people for carrying out their civic duty regardless of who does or doesn't feel it is 'right'. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Alica Wildfire Minmatar Federal Investigations Agency	Posted - 2009.08.25 08:03:00 - [92] Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 25/08/2009 08:05:07 To be precise the traitors and collaborateurs that once have been the Nefantar were extinguished as a Minmatar tribe. The proud tattoos were cleaned and they were outcast of the Minmatar and suffer their miserable existance as the pawns and willing servants of the Amarr in the bufferzone Delerik that was established between the Republic and the Amarr Empire by the Amarr to be the first under the sword if we should one time decide to come for them because their crimes against our people are enough. The Ammatar may not carry the name of the Nefantar anymore and may their tattoos are forbidden by law in our Republic for the shame of their treason has befudged their tribe forever. But the slaves of the nineth generation that got freed are no Nefantar. They are all in all no willing servants and even the Salvation Crusade does not want again beeing enslaved by the Amarr nor do they actively force Minmatar into slavery like roaming gangs of the Ammatar do since then, criminals on their own kind. The Salvation Crusade is a nauseable thing that warships the Amarr god but it is still their choice to do this. If the Minmatar as a whole decide to outcast them by law this it is the time when we are standing shoulder to shoulder and kick them out of our Republic. But until then they are citizens and accepted inhabitants with all rights that a Minmatar Republic citizen can have. And this means that we Militia pilots have to protect them. Not set bounties on them and let them kill by criminals. This is inverse of what your task is, soldier. This is the way of autocracy, the way of the Amarr Empire. This is the way of despotism. This is the way without the law of the tribes. It is exactly the opposite for what we are fighting for and what is our commission. Stop that. Now. -- FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 08:15:00 - [93] Edited by: Havohej on 25/08/2009 08:16:51 Originally by: Alica Wildfire by law There's that word again... I won't waste my time explaining Du'uma Fiisi's objectives or our position regarding the laws established during Midular the Appeaser's regime. Originally by: Alica Wildfire And we will break you too As much as I found your CEO to be a reasonable man... you're pushing it. Originally by: Alica Wildfire Stop that. Now. Make us. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Alica Wildfire Minmatar Federal Investigations Agency	Posted - 2009.08.25 10:09:00 - [94] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Alica Wildfire Stop that. Now. Make us. You are using violence on Matari, not me. I just started to move myself between your guns and the bodies of the Minmatar you are threatening. This is full defensive measure. If you want to harm them anymore, you have first to shoot me. In Empire space this will mean that CONCORD will gonna crush you. You will find some civilians on board of my ships where I have given them asylum. My ships are no assets of the FIA corporation and I can do with them what I want. And I decided to protect the freedom of choice with them which is nothing new for me. So if you want to stop me, you have to break lose a war between brothers, not me. For I am not the offender I try to protect my kind. Anyone of them, those I like and those I dislike as well. I am not willing to shoot at you before you fire first. Deal with that now as you wish. -- FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
Lord Maximullis Amarr Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 11:07:00 - [95] Originally by: Alica Wildfire CONCORD will gonna crush you. CONCORD? you must be joking my dear. CONCORD couldn't even defend their own station, it couldn't stop the Caldari invading Luminare, it couldn't stop the Elder fleet invading the Empire. And it won't stop us.
Math'ra Hiede Amarr Ordo Nigrorum Susurri Ordo Magna	Posted - 2009.08.25 11:33:00 - [96] Originally by: Lord Maximullis Originally by: Alica Wildfire CONCORD will gonna crush you. CONCORD? you must be joking my dear. CONCORD couldn't even defend their own station, it couldn't stop the Caldari invading Luminare, it couldn't stop the Elder fleet invading the Empire. And it won't stop us. Ah Marius. This would seem to imply that you and your feeble bretheren hold the same earth shaking power as the Elder Fleet, The Caldari Invasion forces or even the might of the Empresses Fleet. I would wonder if your recent trials and tribulations has started to affect your mind. As your powers of logic appear to have escaped you here. As for your "bounty". It is a savage and barbaric act of ruthless agression against men and women who did nothing more than use their voices in the freedom, you and your fabled "Republic" gave them. As such, I condemn you and yours. I thought there was a chance for you once apon a time. Now I see you a merely a dog that has gone feral, and must be put down. ------------------------------------------------ Geburah Archon Princeps "Innocence Proves Nothing" -Solen Sean ------------------------------------------------
Elmo Vormar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 12:06:00 - [97] Ms Wildfire, you are clearly blinded by compasion for the amarr loyalists we are hunting. All we do with Du'uma Fiisi is for a better life for the Minmatar people, we are just doing what the laws and governement fail to do. I wouldnt care if caldari or gelentean faith was spread through the republic, i couldnt care less about someones religion. But Amarr's religion represents everything the amarrs have done to the minmatar. And you may think that Abel Jarek's believes and spreading of the Amarr religion is innocent but it isnt, it's brainwashing of the masses untill they find it normal to be the Amarrians their lapdog. Just like those lowlife Ammatars. Quote: Ah Marius. This would seem to imply that you and your feeble bretheren hold the same earth shaking power as the Elder Fleet, The Caldari Invasion forces or even the might of the Empresses Fleet. I would wonder if your recent trials and tribulations has started to affect your mind. As your powers of logic appear to have escaped you here. As for your "bounty". It is a savage and barbaric act of ruthless agression against men and women who did nothing more than use their voices in the freedom, you and your fabled "Republic" gave them. As such, I condemn you and yours. I thought there was a chance for you once apon a time. Now I see you a merely a dog that has gone feral, and must be put down. this (look at the bold text) coming from someone who has slaves who did no harm to anybody...
Math'ra Hiede Amarr Ordo Nigrorum Susurri Ordo Magna	Posted - 2009.08.25 12:24:00 - [98] Originally by: Elmo Vormar Ms Wildfire, you are clearly blinded by compasion for the amarr loyalists we are hunting. All we do with Du'uma Fiisi is for a better life for the Minmatar people, we are just doing what the laws and governement fail to do. I wouldnt care if caldari or gelentean faith was spread through the republic, i couldnt care less about someones religion. But Amarr's religion represents everything the amarrs have done to the minmatar. And you may think that Abel Jarek's believes and spreading of the Amarr religion is innocent but it isnt, it's brainwashing of the masses untill they find it normal to be the Amarrians their lapdog. Just like those lowlife Ammatars. Quote: Ah Marius. This would seem to imply that you and your feeble bretheren hold the same earth shaking power as the Elder Fleet, The Caldari Invasion forces or even the might of the Empresses Fleet. I would wonder if your recent trials and tribulations has started to affect your mind. As your powers of logic appear to have escaped you here. As for your "bounty". It is a savage and barbaric act of ruthless agression against men and women who did nothing more than use their voices in the freedom, you and your fabled "Republic" gave them. As such, I condemn you and yours. I thought there was a chance for you once apon a time. Now I see you a merely a dog that has gone feral, and must be put down. this (look at the bold text) coming from someone who has slaves who did no harm to anybody... Mr. Vormar I see that you are not well versed on myself or what I stand for, although that may in part be my own fault. I shall attempt to correct you on this point then. I myself hold NO slaves, I liberated these men and women and offered them payed employment, far above what they would find elsewhere in the Empire or even the Republic. However I make no claims about not hurting people, as a capsuleer we sow more death and destruction per individual than any else in this cluster, excepting the heads of major factions. I do not however, believe in needless slaughter of people of any race. The men and women you choose to hunt caused you no harm and wished only peace, yet you would hunt them down like a pack of savage slaver hounds and tear them limb from bloody limb for no other reason than they opened their mouth to voice their ideals. It is a shame and a poor reflection on the Republic if this is what you strive to become. ------------------------------------------------ Geburah Archon Princeps "Innocence Proves Nothing" -Solen Sean ------------------------------------------------
Elmo Vormar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 12:33:00 - [99] Thats my fault, i didnt inform myself enough on that mather. My appologies. Maybe those men/women dont deserve to die, but they surely dont belong in the republic. If any minmatar want to convert to the amarr religion they would live in ammatar space, where they can be the free slaves they want to be. But as a capsuleer you know that sometimes sacrifices must be made for the greater good, so i couldnt care less if they got killed or go live with their amarr friends. Every amarr loyalist will get their punishment, if its not now it will come soon enough.
Aleczander Kerr Epitoth Guard	Posted - 2009.08.25 12:35:00 - [100] Originally by: Elmo Vormar Originally by: Vikarion Does that involve genetic treatment, or just a faux-family relationship? Marius Mullis is more minmatar than other matari will ever be. And if you ask me, every minmatar that helps or agrees with any amarr enslaver can be shot this instant. Impressive. Your view that this man is better than any of your race is quite remarkable. You must really feel inferior to put yourselves below the value of such a creature. Now do you see the value of the Reclaiming? We are here for your salvation.
Elmo Vormar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 12:45:00 - [101] Originally by: Aleczander Kerr Impressive. Your view that this man is better than any of your race is quite remarkable. You must really feel inferior to put yourselves below the value of such a creature. Now do you see the value of the Reclaiming? We are here for your salvation. Any person who works for/puts effort in a better republic is better than any minmatar who just stands idle by and looks how their people get enslaved by amarr scum. And i dont feel inferior, i just know my place in our corporation. This man, marius mullis, has done more then i did for the good cause, and herefor he has my respect just like any other member of Du'uma Fiisi gets my respect for their work.
Lord Maximullis Amarr Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 13:23:00 - [102] Originally by: Math'ra Hiede It is a savage and barbaric act of ruthless agression And you are going to tell me that the day of darkness and the hundreds of years of slavery that followed arn't? If the loyalists and the Empire think that the Matari are barbaric savages,fine we will show them what savages can do. This is war...there's no morality in it, the aim is simply to kill as many of your enemies as possible while protecting our friends. That is what Du'uma fiisi does...to put it simply, we kill loyalists.
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.25 13:45:00 - [103] Two wrongs don't make a right.
Math'ra Hiede Amarr Ordo Nigrorum Susurri Ordo Magna	Posted - 2009.08.25 14:03:00 - [104] Originally by: Lord Maximullis Originally by: Math'ra Hiede It is a savage and barbaric act of ruthless agression And you are going to tell me that the day of darkness and the hundreds of years of slavery that followed arn't? If the loyalists and the Empire think that the Matari are barbaric savages,fine we will show them what savages can do. This is war...there's no morality in it, the aim is simply to kill as many of your enemies as possible while protecting our friends. That is what Du'uma fiisi does...to put it simply, we kill loyalists. Your misguided rage will be your undoing Marius. Time and time again you display your lack of control and discipline. As for these past events, I cannot make ammends for things myself or my forfathers had no part in. You deal with your own demons, your fathers history alone should shame you. Now your own is simply grinding whatever may have once stood proud into dust. Originally by: Elmo Vormar Any person who works for/puts effort in a better republic is better than any minmatar who just stands idle by and looks how their people get enslaved by amarr scum. And i dont feel inferior, i just know my place in our corporation. This man, marius mullis, has done more then i did for the good cause, and herefor he has my respect just like any other member of Du'uma Fiisi gets my respect for their work. You put your faith in respect in animals Vormar. Your leader has publicly displayed his willfull intent to show no regard for life of any kind, let alone those of your own kind I thought for a moment there that you might have been rational, now it seems that you as well are clouded by a primal desire to simply cause harm. Originally by: Elmo Vormar But as a capsuleer you know that sometimes sacrifices must be made for the greater good, so i couldnt care less if they got killed or go live with their amarr friends. Every amarr loyalist will get their punishment, if its not now it will come soon enough. Yes, as a Capsuleer I know what sacrifices mean, I have been forced to make them before as well What it does not mean is to willfully murder ones own bretheren, simply for a belief. It does not mean that men and women should be slaughtered for believing in something that they have every right to. It is this sort of unwavering fury and rage that is what we fight against. I can only speak for myself and those I command, but I do not believe in the destruction of either group over beliefs. ------------------------------------------------ Geburah Archon Princeps "Innocence Proves Nothing" -Solen Sean ------------------------------------------------
Poreuomai Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.08.25 14:11:00 - [105] Originally by: Drakonus Laerdon Every time that the sub-human Tribals open their mouths, they make the case for their own enslavement... Your attitude makes a great case for our continued fight! *Let My People Go*
Lord Maximullis Amarr Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 15:33:00 - [106] Edited by: Lord Maximullis on 25/08/2009 15:33:44 Originally by: Math'ra Hiede Time and time again you display your lack of control and discipline. Yet, despite this..you havn't managed to kill me yet, and oh...how you've tried. You talk about my rage Math'ra, yet, it is not misguided or unfocused...in my rage I have a very specific aim: to give back to the Empire what it has given unto me.
Aleczander Kerr Epitoth Guard	Posted - 2009.08.25 16:18:00 - [107] Originally by: Lord Maximullis You talk about my rage Math'ra, yet, it is not misguided or unfocused...in my rage I have a very specific aim: to give back to the Empire what it has given unto me. So basically you are frustrated that you weren't able to attain power within the Empire and now look to harm it. You have joined the Empire's enemy. What are you now? A rightious, albeit Minmatar murdering, crusader for the Minmatar cause? Or just a murdering maniac joining a side that turns a blind eye and gives you a white card to do as you wish? Or are you something else?
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 16:42:00 - [108] Originally by: Alica Wildfire Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 25/08/2009 10:58:57 Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Alica Wildfire Stop that. Now. Make us. You are using violence on Matari, not me. I just started to move myself between your guns and the bodies of the Minmatar you are threatening. This is full defensive measure. If you want to harm them anymore, you have first to shoot me. You're not paying attention. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 16:44:00 - [109] Originally by: Math'ra Hiede I would wonder if your recent trials and tribulations has started to affect your mind. Funny you should mention this... I was given to understand that your organization wanted very much for that incident to remain shrouded in secrecy - would you like for us to go into detail about it publicly? "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 16:47:00 - [110] Originally by: ChipMo Two wrongs don't make a right. You're not paying attention, either. We don't care about right or wrong, especially right and wrong in the opinions of outsiders. We care about stopping the spread of the slaver's faith among our young people. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:26:00 - [111] Edited by: ChipMo on 25/08/2009 20:26:34 Originally by: Havohej You're not paying attention, either. We don't care about right or wrong, especially right and wrong in the opinions of outsiders. We care about stopping the spread of the slaver's faith among our young people. Perhaps if you set a better example for them they wouldn't go looking to the Amarrians for ideology. Seriously, how do you think killing unarmed preachers will impact your impressionable youth's view of the republic? If you want to beat the church of Jarek you have to offer something better on the ideological front. Bullets and missiles are great at toppling empires and crushing armies, but they are useless against a true believer. Still, you'll figure this out for yourself eventually weather you heed my words or not. I just hope as few as possible non-combatants are murdered in the mean time.
Corporate Thief Caldari Code Triage	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:38:00 - [112] Originally by: Lord Maximullis Originally by: Alica Wildfire CONCORD will gonna crush you. CONCORD? you must be joking my dear. CONCORD couldn't even defend their own station, it couldn't stop the Caldari invading Luminare, it couldn't stop the Elder fleet invading the Empire. And it won't stop us. A new face appears amongst a sea of old, toying with a data-disk CONCORD, and the general "Shoot First, Approach the Situation with a Hammer" crowd may not be able to stop you, but don't be so dense as to assume that the people who take notice of your radical views, coupled with a volatile mix of blindness to the bigger picture, are all powerless to intervene in a true fashion. Not that such intervention is free, but that is discussion for more private mediums.. His voice trails off for a moment before his attention is re-focused, his face set Let this be my fair warning to you, Havohej, and Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics: "Purge yourselves of the cancer" of this line of thought and action, or there will be no [DF1AS] to return to, no safe haven except those that are lawfully required, albeit grudgingly, to be extended by the people you are so willing to watch burn. This Galaxy, and the events which transpire within it, affect us all. Businessman and Soldier; Faction Lackey and Null-Sec Dictator; Matari, Gallente, Caldari, and Amarrian alike. Some people don't mind being pushed around, some do... Me? I tend to push back. How sure is sure, Havohej? ---
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:52:00 - [113] Seems I was wrong before. Nobody bows before the might of 3rd Kador somethingorother; all bow before the might of anonymous proxy poster. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Vikarion Caldari White Rose Society	Posted - 2009.08.25 23:01:00 - [114] What you and your corporation do not seem to understand, Havojeh, is that your course of action will not prove nearly as harmful to the Amarr as to the Republic and its people. I am no great friend of the Amarr, and I rather like the Republic, and I am very sure that your actions will not help the Matari people. Therefore, I will pay anyone who destroys a ship belonging to Du'uma Fiisi 30 million ISK, provided the ship destroyed is worth more than that. I will add an additional 10 million ISK if you also manage to destroy their current body. Of course, I will be careful to examine your claim to ascertain legitimacy of the kill, so a copy of the CONCORD mail as proof is necessary.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.25 23:16:00 - [115] The Thukker-Sebiestor clears his throat. This isn't about harming the Amarr.. it is about safeguarding Minmatar youth from the slaver's poisoned scriptures. It goes without saying that we believe it will have a very positive effect indeed as concerns our people. And I guess it's worth noting again that what's good for the Republic is of secondary concern to what's good for our people. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer*
Math'ra Hiede Amarr Ordo Nigrorum Susurri Ordo Magna	Posted - 2009.08.26 11:22:00 - [116] Edited by: Math''ra Hiede on 26/08/2009 11:26:55 Originally by: Lord Maximullis Yet, despite this..you havn't managed to kill me yet, and oh...how you've tried. You talk about my rage Math'ra, yet, it is not misguided or unfocused...in my rage I have a very specific aim: to give back to the Empire what it has given unto me. You display your instability yet again Marius. Never, in all my time have I ever sought to kill you, you however. You have tried many times to murder me. And to my knowledge have failed to make any lasting effects. As for your so-called 'specific rage' against the Empire. Do you even consider that its not the Empire your fighting against? But your own twisted memories and broken ideals? Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Math'ra Hiede I would wonder if your recent trials and tribulations has started to affect your mind. Funny you should mention this... I was given to understand that your organization wanted very much for that incident to remain shrouded in secrecy - would you like for us to go into detail about it publicly? Mr. Havohej I was refering to the time in Marius' past where he was once a staunch defender of the faith, and for some reason best known only to his own derranged mind he betrayed the Empire and all he stood for to become, as Mr. Kerr put it. Originally by: Aleczander Kerr murdering maniac joining a side that turns a blind eye and gives you a white card to do as you wish?.... or something else? It is these incidents I refer to when I cast my thoughts into the open about Marius. Originally by: Havohej This isn't about harming the Amarr.. it is about safeguarding Minmatar youth from the slaver's poisoned scriptures. It goes without saying that we believe it will have a very positive effect indeed as concerns our people. And I guess it's worth noting again that what's good for the Republic is of secondary concern to what's good for our people. Here you go again Havohej. You proclaim to be concerned for the people of the Republic, you proclaim that you must purge your OWN BRETHEREN for the betterment of the greater group? So. How long is it before you murder the rest, for simply disagreeing with your tendancy to proclaim yourself Judge, Jury and Executioner? How long before the Republic you proclaim to defend and fight for turns their back on you for your so-called Justice. Take a good look in the mirror Havohej, your walking down the line of Anarchy, and you seem intent on dragging the rest of your Republic with you. ------------------------------------------------ Geburah Archon Princeps "Innocence Proves Nothing" -Solen Sean ------------------------------------------------
lucifers widow 3rd Kador lancers	Posted - 2009.08.26 12:25:00 - [117] Originally by: Havohej Seems I was wrong before. Nobody bows before the might of 3rd Kador somethingorother; all bow before the might of anonymous proxy poster. Wow, you took all that time to think up that !! What I said about you sorry corp being inept must of struck a chord as I not posted on this page even And while it is true that I not fight myself i'm far from a proxy poster what ever that means, I support finacially two fairly succesful combat pilots who through corporate politics is not allowed to post themselves as they are lower ranked pilots and not ranking officers. In fact both of them have individually gained more kills and vp's since the start of this year than you're whole sorry corp has. So looks like the only way for you to get noticed is the murdering of students who's guilt has not been proven and in fact the pitiful evidence you put forward would be laughed out of any court in any empire, even then you lack the balls to do the job and have to resort to the criminal classes to kill for you and then you fabricate the "evidence".
Elmo Vormar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.26 12:46:00 - [118] Originally by: lucifers widow Originally by: Havohej Seems I was wrong before. Nobody bows before the might of 3rd Kador somethingorother; all bow before the might of anonymous proxy poster. Wow, you took all that time to think up that !! What I said about you sorry corp being inept must of struck a chord as I not posted on this page even And while it is true that I not fight myself i'm far from a proxy poster what ever that means, I support finacially two fairly succesful combat pilots who through corporate politics is not allowed to post themselves as they are lower ranked pilots and not ranking officers. In fact both of them have individually gained more kills and vp's since the start of this year than you're whole sorry corp has. So looks like the only way for you to get noticed is the murdering of students who's guilt has not been proven and in fact the pitiful evidence you put forward would be laughed out of any court in any empire, even then you lack the balls to do the job and have to resort to the criminal classes to kill for you and then you fabricate the "evidence". i dont know if you read everything between your last post and the one before that but i dont think this one was directed to you but to Corporate Thief. Though I could be wrong... But pls take your cheap words with you cause they dont mean anything nor the things those two combat pilots ,you financially support, achieved. A lot of Du'uma Fiisi pilots support the militia with their industrial activities, so kills mean nothing...
Gorkus Dante Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.26 13:39:00 - [119] Edited by: Gorkus Dante on 26/08/2009 13:40:29 Originally by: Math'ra Hiede How long before the Republic you proclaim to defend and fight for turns their back on you for your so-called Justice. We dont fight for the republic, we fight for the Minmatar people and there freedom. Any body who acts against the Minmatar people's freedom is a enemy, anyone who preaches for a religion that supports the imprisonment of innocent Minmatar people is a enemy. The Empire is and for ever will be the enemy untill they release all slaves, cease the opression and stay well out of Minmatar affairs. Untill this day all loyalists of the Empire will be my enemy.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:22:00 - [120] Edited by: Havohej on 26/08/2009 19:25:11 Originally by: Math'ra Hiede Here you go again Havohej. You proclaim to be concerned for the people of the Republic You're not paying attention. Originally by: Gorkus Dante We dont fight for the republic, we fight for the Minmatar people and there freedom. Any body who acts against the Minmatar people's freedom is a enemy, anyone who preaches for a religion that supports the imprisonment of innocent Minmatar people is a enemy. The Empire is and for ever will be the enemy untill they release all slaves, cease the opression and stay well out of Minmatar affairs. Untill this day all loyalists of the Empire will be my enemy. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:23:00 - [121] Originally by: lucifers widow I not posted on this page even The three threads are closely related, you can be sure anyone following this one is also following the other two. And you're not the proxy posted I was referring to, Corporate Thief is... you're not important enough to reference twice in one post, pilot, so don't flatter yourself. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Vendrin Caldari Veto.	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:37:00 - [122] If an orbital bombardment happens to take out a village of these salvation converts, will you pay the bounty for each head that is routinely seen attending one of their little chapels or is more indepth "proof required"? _______________________________
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:10:00 - [123] Originally by: Vendrin If an orbital bombardment happens to take out a village of these salvation converts, will you pay the bounty for each head that is routinely seen attending one of their little chapels or is more indepth "proof required"? A claimant needs to be a Minmatar citizen of the Minmatar Republic and provide direct evidence of involvement in religious insurrection taking place. They also need to provide proof that they were responsible for the termination of the enemy personnel. This reward is intended, of course, to benefit the common Minmatar non-capsuleer, but if someone were to somehow gain access to that sort of firepower I suspect the Republic government would be all over it before we could get anywhere near investigating the legitimacy of the claim. Which, really, is just as well... that sort of an attack would almost certainly kill a large number of innocent Minmatar and that is the last thing Du'uma Fiisi wants to see happen. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Vendrin Caldari Veto.	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:16:00 - [124] Pity _______________________________
Sauli Keskinen	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:28:00 - [125] Just a question to Captain Havohej; out of curiosity since you don't appear to obey the Republic's current laws as being that of "Midular the Appeaser", what are your views of the laws of your tribal leaders, or your clan's leaders? Isn't the essence of Matari society the importance of group loyalty, whether that group is your local clan, village elders, tribal chiefs or the Sanmatar? If this is so, and you were ordered by say your clan's head, the chief of the Sebeistor Tribe/chief of the Thukker or Sanmatar Shakor himself to cease your campaign, would you follow their orders or not? Just wondering sir, not intending to start a fight, nor insult you.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:46:00 - [126] Originally by: Sauli Keskinen Just a question to Captain Havohej; out of curiosity since you don't appear to obey the Republic's current laws as being that of "Midular the Appeaser", what are your views of the laws of your tribal leaders, or your clan's leaders? Isn't the essence of Matari society the importance of group loyalty, whether that group is your local clan, village elders, tribal chiefs or the Sanmatar? If this is so, and you were ordered by say your clan's head, the chief of the Sebeistor Tribe/chief of the Thukker or Sanmatar Shakor himself to cease your campaign, would you follow their orders or not? Just wondering sir, not intending to start a fight, nor insult you. Minmatar preaching the Amarr Empire's religious doctrine of slavery are no longer loyal to clan or tribe. Like the Ammatar generations ago, they made their choice. The leaders of the Sebiestor tribe, so far as I can tell, have been supportive of the 'democratist' point of view and it is my sincere hope that when the Tribal Assembly is brought together they will be persuaded to see the light of reason and acknowledge that the Gallente political model is not the model that will best see our people into the future. Chief Aeboul of the Thukker Tribe has not publicly commented on the 'democratist' bloc or their wishes that I have seen, but given that he has made his primary concern the autonomy of the Thukker Tribe, I can't imagine he would approve of the Salvation Crusade's quest to convert all of the Minmatar population into willing, 'god' fearing slaves who believe in the 'divine' right and superiority of the Amarrians as told in their scriptures. If Sanmatar Shakor himself bespoke a desire to see the Salvation Crusade's religious insurrection continue I would indeed question the honesty of everything that he has said and done leading up to this point. Fortunately, I don't believe my faith in Sanmatar Shakor will be tested in that way. If Sanmatar Shakor were to condemn our methods, I am confident that condemnation would be followed by an announcement of an official and probably more humane way of dealing with the problem... and above all else, I am a reasonable man, open to compromise. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:04:00 - [127] Isn't you or Shakor for that matter, dictating what Minmatar people can and cannot believe just another form of slavery?
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:10:00 - [128] Hm... On the one hand, we have the option to believe there is a supreme, omnipotent being who says that everyone in the universe should submit to enslavement by the Amarr because they are the master race. On the other hand, we have the option to say, "Listen guys, you can believe in anything but that." I'll take the lesser of those two evils: "You can believe in anything but that." "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Louella Dougans Amarr Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:16:00 - [129] Originally by: Havohej supreme, omnipotent being who says that everyone in the universe should submit to enslavement by the Amarr because they are the master race. I'd point out that God doesn't say that, the Scriptures don't say that, Amarr doesn't say that. Only Idiots say that. But you've already made up your mind about it, and nothing anyone can say would change it. You're still one of God's creatures though. Maybe you'll find peace and joy some day. Preferably without killing others. Mother used to disapprove of my lifestyle. Now I disapprove of hers. The Circle is Complete.
Sophie Starsparrow Minmatar Starfish Operating Syndicate Independent Faction	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:19:00 - [130] Originally by: Sauli Keskinen Isn't the essence of Matari society the importance of group loyalty, whether that group is your local clan, village elders, tribal chiefs or the Sanmatar? Sauli, I realize your question was posted to Pilot Havohej, and I certainly have no intention of speaking for him, however, you seem to be confusing us with Caldari. A Tribal leader's job is to be the voice of the tribe, to represent an individual clan's concerns to the larger community, not the other way around. I know Sanmatar Shakor has been portrayed as a tyrant and as a dictator. Whether he becomes this or not remains to be seen, but all he has done to this point is what the tribe wishes. Our voices travel up to the heavens, not down from them, as the Amarr society is structured. We do not split into teams to see who's bigger to see who gets their way as the Gallente do, bowing to the herd while pretending to be on the side of the individual. We do not expect blind loyalty and fealty to a larger group as the Caldari do. Only by understanding and dealing with the concerns of the individual can the group expect loyalty in return. When our leaders or governance methods are no longer reflecting the wishes of the tribe, they are removed, as Midular was removed, as the Parliament was removed. The debate you see raging between Pilots Havohej and Wildfire is a vital part of this process. This is how differences are settled among us, and sometimes, how new tribes are born.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:19:00 - [131] Edited by: Havohej on 26/08/2009 21:21:53 You'll forgive me if I take the actions of your people over the last few hundred years over the lies of a self-proclaimed space nun. e: Pilot Starsparrow, you are a credit to our people. It is a pity we were unable to convince you to join us before. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:20:00 - [132] Originally by: Havohej Hm... On the one hand, we have the option to believe there is a supreme, omnipotent being who says that everyone in the universe should submit to enslavement by the Amarr because they are the master race. On the other hand, we have the option to say, "Listen guys, you can believe in anything but that." I'll take the lesser of those two evils: "You can believe in anything but that." The first sounds more like the 24th Crusade than a cult of Jarek. The crime of the Amrrians is not in their arrogance, it is in the execution of this arrogance. Holding an opinion and holding a slave are two extreams and should be treated as such. If I were in your shoes I would look to social exclusion or ridicule to deal with any remnants of Jarek's followers within the Republic. Save your capital punishment for those who truly deserve it - Those who actively attack the republic or its people. It would be a great shame for the Minmatar Republic to turn into the conditional Republic.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:28:00 - [133] Originally by: ChipMo The first sounds more like the 24th Crusade than a cult of Jarek. The "Cult of Jarek" idea is an Amarrian lie; Jarek and his religious insurrection were not an independant, random Minmatar cult of Amarr faith with no Imperial involvement. I'll quote myself from the other thread: Originally by: Havohej At his inauguration speech, Sanmatar Shakor said that we are, "a race of warriors, not slaves," and stressed the importance of clan unity - he said nothing about the importance of allowing outsiders like Abel Jarek to begin religious insurrections on behalf of the Amarr Empire. Or did you forget that Jarek was a Cleric in the Salvation Church of Blessed Servitude, an authorized branch of the Amarrian Church serving slave populations? An official Amarrian slave preacher! Jarek's insurrection isn't a simple cult of misguided kids, it is a calculated attack born in the Amarr Empire. Originally by: ChipMo If I were in your shoes I would look to social exclusion or ridicule to deal with any remnants of Jarek's followers within the Republic. Save your capital punishment for those who truly deserve it - Those who actively attack the republic or its people. That is exactly what these traitors are doing, they merely use poisoned scriptures rather than firearms, targeting the cultural identity crisis forced upon our people since the Yulai convention in the form of politicians like Midular the Appeaser telling us that our ways were wrong and we should be more like the Gallente in order to make the Amarr and Caldari think more highly of us. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:51:00 - [134] Originally by: Havohej That is exactly what these traitors are doing, they merely use poisoned scriptures rather than firearms, targeting the cultural identity crisis forced upon our people since the Yulai convention in the form of politicians like Midular the Appeaser telling us that our ways were wrong and we should be more like the Gallente in order to make the Amarr and Caldari think more highly of us. If your proud of your culture, share it, celebrate it! Gratuitous violence against men whose only weapons are words... What kind of culture is that? It is not the Matari I know.
Louella Dougans Amarr Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:55:00 - [135] Originally by: Havohej You'll forgive me if I take the actions of your people over the last few hundred years over the lies of a self-proclaimed space nun. Hurr, asking forgiveness of an Amarrian? You should stand in the corner and think about what you just did, no? Humour aside. It's the Truth. What's been done in the past has been done by idiots who like to wallow in material wealth, rather than accept their proper role in the scheme of things. Hence, invasions, slavery, etc, etc. Rather than living a decent godly life and so on. Mother used to disapprove of my lifestyle. Now I disapprove of hers. The Circle is Complete.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.26 22:06:00 - [136] Originally by: Louella Dougans Originally by: Havohej You'll forgive me if I take the actions of your people over the last few hundred years over the lies of a self-proclaimed space nun. Hurr, asking forgiveness of an Amarrian? I didn't ask. I told. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Arnulf Ogunkoya Minmatar The Causality	Posted - 2009.08.26 23:15:00 - [137] One point. In offering these bounties you are relying on the judgement of whoever decides to go collect on them not to kill the wrong people. If this group of converts is a threat to the Minmatar people how long before one of your amateur headhunters kills an Republic Security Services undercover agent? Regards,
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.27 00:04:00 - [138] Originally by: Arnulf Ogunkoya One point. In offering these bounties you are relying on the judgement of whoever decides to go collect on them not to kill the wrong people. If this group of converts is a threat to the Minmatar people how long before one of your amateur headhunters kills an Republic Security Services undercover agent? If a claimant murders a Minmatar - that is, kills someone without sufficiently proving that the target was involved in the insurrection - that claimant will not be paid and will be turned in to his or her local planetary police agency, of course. I would expect an RSS agent to be sufficiently trained that your average citizen would find it quite difficult to get the drop on one. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Arnulf Ogunkoya Minmatar The Causality	Posted - 2009.08.27 08:30:00 - [139] Originally by: Havohej If a claimant murders a Minmatar - that is, kills someone without sufficiently proving that the target was involved in the insurrection - that claimant will not be paid and will be turned in to his or her local planetary police agency, of course. I don't think much of this program for more than one reason but it's good to see you have some restraint. Originally by: Havohej I would expect an RSS agent to be sufficiently trained that your average citizen would find it quite difficult to get the drop on one. Anyone can be unlucky, even trained agents. Also, I doubt anyone who can stalk a target well enough to gather the sort of proof that you require could be described as an average citizen. My main point is that such an agent would seem, by your standards, to be one of your targets. I'd say leave this sort of thing to professionals and defend our people in a way you are trained for. Regards,

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