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Veebora Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.21 03:35:00 - [1] After CCP find the exploit on T2 material they said the prices would rise for a while and so get down due alchemy skills. Something went very wrong, T2 prices keep going higher and higher. I was expecting a bit more accuracy from CCP
Subbaculcha	Posted - 2009.08.21 03:45:00 - [2] do you prefer t2 BPOs won from lotteries by some random ppls and then bought by the richer ppls?
Veebora Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.21 03:46:00 - [3] Originally by: Subbaculcha do you prefer t2 BPOs won from lotteries by some random ppls and then bought by the richer ppls? I don't know if I got your point but I would prefer anything that could make the stuff in game more affordable and usable.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.08.21 03:53:00 - [4] In before Akita T's essay, The Mechanics Of Alchemy And Their Effects On The T2 Industry.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.08.21 04:04:00 - [5] Originally by: Khemul Zula In before Akita T's essay, The Mechanics Of Alchemy And Their Effects On The T2 Industry. Essay? Just point to a graph with no data. Same effect, since alchemy did, you know. Nothing. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
Gautan Virdamot Nebula Rasa Vanguard	Posted - 2009.08.21 04:04:00 - [6] Originally by: Subbaculcha do you prefer t2 BPOs won from lotteries by some random ppls and then bought by the richer ppls? I don't recall you making tech II materials from tech II BPOs, did I miss a memo? Did anyone fraps it?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.08.21 05:23:00 - [7] Originally by: Khemul Zula In before Akita T's essay, The Mechanics Of Alchemy And Their Effects On The T2 Industry. Oh, somebody'll link to one of them eventually, why bother _ Info about our corp \| Beginer's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper
Veebora Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.22 04:29:00 - [8] As I said, it seems as alchemy just failed to improve T2 industry.
Joe Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.	Posted - 2009.08.22 04:35:00 - [9] Edited by: Joe on 22/08/2009 04:36:38 {edit]editted becuase its just not fun anymore
Tellenta Gallente Invicta. Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.08.22 04:41:00 - [10] Originally by: Veebora As I said, it seems as alchemy just failed to improve T2 industry. Depends what you mean by improving the T2 industry, I do perform alchemy for 2 of the stupid expencive advanced reactions for roughly a 350-500 mill personal savings. However the manufacturing time for alchemy is excessive and you probably won't see it have an obviouse effect on the Jita market. However don't assume just because people can manufacture something for personal savings that it will trickle in the the end market. It will take the people who value their time and efforts very little to drive prices down. I will charge as much as possible for my goods driving down prices is not in my interest.
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.08.22 04:57:00 - [11] The problem isn't necessarily the t2 BPOs in fact some who own the bpos cannot actually make money at current market prices. The problem is the moon supply itself. Alchemy simply cannot make up for the monopoly held on Dyspro moons. You in essence have an oligarchy that controls all the Dyspro moons. Due to their near monopolies they have adjusted the prices such that no one can compete with them. Using the resources generated they have fleets no one can hope to challenge due to their deep pockets. In essence there is no real way to break it. There is possibly 2 solutions. 1. Have moons deplete their spawns after an amount of time that is randomized. The spawn then reappears in another empty moon somewhere in the galaxy. 2. Reseed all moons. Make it such that ever moon material appears at least once in any given constellation. Solution 1 would have some impact but once it was known which moon was the dyspro moon then it would probably be fought over and eventually one of the dominant alliances would hold it again, though it could for a short time help smaller and medium size alliances. Solution 2 would probably lead to a collapse of the current moon materials because it would flood the market. While on the surface this might seem good it could severely affect the ability to hold 0.0 as prices crashes causing severe shortages in isk to maintain the POS necessary to hold sovereignty. I suppose a 3rd option would be to modify the alchemy rules. Currently using alchemy you really can't make money competing. The other guys sell their dyspro if they do for less than you can make it for but at a still generous profit.
Hrodgar Ortal	Posted - 2009.08.22 05:46:00 - [12] Niether sollution 1 or 2 would work and 1 is so horrible due to the mechanics of scanning moons. (it just isn't fun to scan 3000 moons at regular intervalls) If the goal is to rebalance moons and make t2 more affordable a better choice imo is to change the needed amounts in the blueprints. You can in that way also rebalance so that the difference in value between different moons is equalized within rarity.
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.08.22 09:36:00 - [13] Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal Niether sollution 1 or 2 would work and 1 is so horrible due to the mechanics of scanning moons. (it just isn't fun to scan 3000 moons at regular intervalls) If the goal is to rebalance moons and make t2 more affordable a better choice imo is to change the needed amounts in the blueprints. You can in that way also rebalance so that the difference in value between different moons is equalized within rarity. You'd be surprised there are folks that like to scan and probe and stuff, you could hire one of them to do it. The way its set up now pretty much removes any risk vs reward equation. Yes you could modify the blueprint amounts. Not sure that would fix it either, they'd probably just cut down the supply to the public market and increase its price further, so that they'd make the same amount, and the price would increase not decrease possibly... A combination of changing the blueprints, meddling with alchemy and possibly allowing spawns to move could probably break the lockjam. (Although my 2 above would have been nice if it had been done originally, I'm not sure it would be productive today and would do more harm than good).
ropnes	Posted - 2009.08.22 10:25:00 - [14] It's kind of strange that moons never deplete tbh I wouldn't mind seeing it in the game
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.08.22 10:32:00 - [15] With the new sov mechanism coming in the next expansion, one can hope that it will be much more difficult to hold moons spread out all over the map as certain entities do. Thus, unless PL and such wish to live in 30+ small pockets of sov space all over the map they'll need to give up moons. One can hope.
Shidhe Minmatar The Babylon5 Consortuim	Posted - 2009.08.22 10:38:00 - [16] There were numerous other possible solutions proposed before alchemy was brought out. My personal one was that moons would have some other materials, but at lower concentrations, so that more time would be spent mining them. This still gives people with concentration 1 Prom/Dys an advantage, but at high price levels other producers can take up market share, stabilising the price. To be honest, alchemy was not, in principle, too bad a solution. It had the disadvantage of using a limited supply alternative material that had other uses, so that might have been foreseen to cause problems as the player base expanded. But the numbers were wrong, even in the beginning - probably CCPs policy to pre-nerf combined with distortions caused by both market manipulation and the POS exploit. And now the problem is what to do... Try to alter alchemy so that it makes a real effect in the market? Not optimal, but modifying an existing mechanism may be more acceptable. Or look at moon mining again - as my proposal above, or others, or (biggie incoming) think about moon mining in W-space?
soren tores	Posted - 2009.08.22 10:58:00 - [17] what about trace amounts of moon minerals in every asteriod thats mineable. just that a trace. or even in ice. but not enough for it to be more profitable than mining for the ore itself.
Zaerlorth Maelkor The Maverick Navy Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.22 11:07:00 - [18] Originally by: ropnes It's kind of strange that moons never deplete tbh I wouldn't mind seeing it in the game Not really that strange. They are moons... They are BIG... A mine in the real world usually doesn't deplete it's mineral deposit within a few months, why would one in EVE? However, you might want to consider a few things, first of all; I now have one of those annoying sigs. second; you should probably move on to some more interesting things than reading this sig.
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.08.22 11:12:00 - [19] Originally by: soren tores what about trace amounts of moon minerals in every asteriod thats mineable. just that a trace. or even in ice. but not enough for it to be more profitable than mining for the ore itself. You know, this might actually be kind of cool. Just make sure its random with each asteroid. ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told. ◕◡◕
Amerilia	Posted - 2009.08.22 11:15:00 - [20] Originally by: Great Artista Originally by: soren tores what about trace amounts of moon minerals in every asteriod thats mineable. just that a trace. or even in ice. but not enough for it to be more profitable than mining for the ore itself. You know, this might actually be kind of cool. Just make sure its random with each asteroid. the problem with random is that it creates cpu load and is never really random. if such a thing was implemented the amounts of trace materials would surely be fixed..
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2009.08.22 11:15:00 - [21] Price of t2 has continued to rise. As a command ship pilot I feel that this blows chunks. As a battlecruiser pilot I like it. Every time I kill a t2 cruiser in a t1 battlecruiser and I know that I just blew up something whose base price is 6x mine I'm satisfied.
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.08.22 13:38:00 - [22] Alchemy didnt really "fail." It was pre-nerfed right before release with the intention of it having no effect. You could say it succeeded admirably. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Veebora Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.22 14:11:00 - [23] Why not just making the T2 material available on many other places (moons) around EVE universe. It will make it more popular, decreasing the profit of the ones monopolizing it and decreasing T2 prices.
Slave 2739FKZ Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.22 14:12:00 - [24] The only ones which can say if alchemy has or not failed is CCP, because there is no one else who knows where their inteded T2 prices are (contrary to T3, which we know more or less because some devs hinted us on the forums). Maybe the itneded price cap hasn't been reached yet. I know, it's crazy how rich are some of these alliances getting, but who knows what CCP has in their mind. WIS is an expansion which allows EVE players to wear leather and walk around stations. Dust514 is a console shooter/rts which will tie into EVE and affect sov.
Jacob Holland Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries	Posted - 2009.08.22 14:22:00 - [25] Originally by: El'Niaga There is possibly 2 solutions. 1. Have moons deplete their spawns after an amount of time that is randomized. The spawn then reappears in another empty moon somewhere in the galaxy. 2. Reseed all moons. Make it such that ever moon material appears at least once in any given constellation. There is a third option. There was a Dev Blog (or it might have been a dev post) a while back which outlined it. Adjust the form of the Mud/Gold system. At present, if you claim a moon, it will either be solid mud (Atmospheric gasses) or solid gold (Dyspro) (or solid tin, zinc...etc). The suggestion was made however that moons could be set up so that they were both mud and gold. Your moon miner would pull out a certain quantity of Atmospheric gasses, a small amount of Platinum and a tiny speck of Dyspro. The really good moons would yield less mud and more gold but the bad moons, while yielding more mud, would still yield a little gold. The Dyspro moon "monopoly" would therefore be impossible to maintain, any corp mining a moon would have small quantities of rare minerals to use or get rid of - and that is where the prices start to come down. Corps who have no use for Dyspro for example would dispose of it for whatever they could get, those needing the money quickly would sell low. traders would gather the low priced stuff and sell it in bulk, for a profit, and the market would adjust the prices according to supply and demand. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Tellenta Gallente Invicta. Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.08.22 14:29:00 - [26] Originally by: Jacob Holland Originally by: El'Niaga There is possibly 2 solutions. 1. Have moons deplete their spawns after an amount of time that is randomized. The spawn then reappears in another empty moon somewhere in the galaxy. 2. Reseed all moons. Make it such that ever moon material appears at least once in any given constellation. There is a third option. There was a Dev Blog (or it might have been a dev post) a while back which outlined it. Adjust the form of the Mud/Gold system. At present, if you claim a moon, it will either be solid mud (Atmospheric gasses) or solid gold (Dyspro) (or solid tin, zinc...etc). The suggestion was made however that moons could be set up so that they were both mud and gold. Your moon miner would pull out a certain quantity of Atmospheric gasses, a small amount of Platinum and a tiny speck of Dyspro. The really good moons would yield less mud and more gold but the bad moons, while yielding more mud, would still yield a little gold. The Dyspro moon "monopoly" would therefore be impossible to maintain, any corp mining a moon would have small quantities of rare minerals to use or get rid of - and that is where the prices start to come down. Corps who have no use for Dyspro for example would dispose of it for whatever they could get, those needing the money quickly would sell low. traders would gather the low priced stuff and sell it in bulk, for a profit, and the market would adjust the prices according to supply and demand. That actually makes sense, count me as shocked.
Lorieen AQ Militis Seprentia	Posted - 2009.08.22 14:32:00 - [27] Originally by: El'Niaga The problem is the moon supply itself. Alchemy simply cannot make up for the monopoly held on Dyspro moons. You in essence have an oligarchy that controls all the Dyspro moons. Due to their near monopolies they have adjusted the prices such that no one can compete with them. Personally I blame Goonswarm.. prices for Dyspro was never this high when BOB was in place in Delve.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.08.22 14:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Veebora After CCP find the exploit on T2 material they said the prices would rise for a while and so get down due alchemy skills. Something went very wrong, T2 prices keep going higher and higher. I was expecting a bit more accuracy from CCP My talking for years now!! CCP should have adjusted the numbers after the pos exploit! How difficult can that be??? Alchemy reactions are the least profitable reactions, no one is doing them and they certainly do not contribute to any significant supply. A lot of the current stalemate in 0.0 could have been also avoided if alchemy would be working as intended!
Tellenta Gallente Invicta. Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.08.22 15:01:00 - [29] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Veebora After CCP find the exploit on T2 material they said the prices would rise for a while and so get down due alchemy skills. Something went very wrong, T2 prices keep going higher and higher. I was expecting a bit more accuracy from CCP My talking for years now!! CCP should have adjusted the numbers after the pos exploit! How difficult can that be??? Alchemy reactions are the least profitable reactions, no one is doing them and they certainly do not contribute to any significant supply. A lot of the current stalemate in 0.0 could have been also avoided if alchemy would be working as intended! If they cut the production time down I think alchemy would make a touch more sense, as it is right now it really only works for the small scale, and certainly doesn't work for people wanting to set up a dedicated pos network for alchemy all the numbers I've run for it show a net loss and only works as something done in addition to something else to cover the POS costs.
Lusulpher Blackwater Syndicate Raining Doom	Posted - 2009.08.22 15:22:00 - [30] Edited by: Lusulpher on 22/08/2009 15:23:02 Originally by: Jacob Holland Originally by: El'Niaga There is possibly 2 solutions. 1. Have moons deplete their spawns after an amount of time that is randomized. The spawn then reappears in another empty moon somewhere in the galaxy. 2. Reseed all moons. Make it such that ever moon material appears at least once in any given constellation. There is a third option. There was a Dev Blog (or it might have been a dev post) a while back which outlined it. Adjust the form of the Mud/Gold system. At present, if you claim a moon, it will either be solid mud (Atmospheric gasses) or solid gold (Dyspro) (or solid tin, zinc...etc). The suggestion was made however that moons could be set up so that they were both mud and gold. Your moon miner would pull out a certain quantity of Atmospheric gasses, a small amount of Platinum and a tiny speck of Dyspro. The really good moons would yield less mud and more gold but the bad moons, while yielding more mud, would still yield a little gold. The Dyspro moon "monopoly" would therefore be impossible to maintain, any corp mining a moon would have small quantities of rare minerals to use or get rid of - and that is where the prices start to come down. Corps who have no use for Dyspro for example would dispose of it for whatever they could get, those needing the money quickly would sell low. traders would gather the low priced stuff and sell it in bulk, for a profit, and the market would adjust the prices according to supply and demand. For Truth! Screw Fairness and Justice, he's deaf and she's blind. Truth knows how to count money. 7

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