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Not Amused Responsible
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
I just want to point out some obvious circumstances for you that Gankers know but those miners that think they can still mine in a barge donGÇÖt. 1.Ganker collateral loss est. 1 mill loss at cost for destroyer not including mods 2.Miner collateral loss est. 250 mill at cost for hulk not including mods, loss of ore 3.Miner collateral loss est. 150mil at cost for tier 3 battleship not including mods, loss of ore
DPS 4.Destroyer cat 1000+dps or Damage per second! 5.Battlecruiser Talos 5000+dps or Damage per second!
Tank 1.Hulk EHP 20,000+ varies on skills and fits eg ..heavy armour plates and extended cargp holds will slow you down also warping, even if your aligned correctly.
Time to destruction Destroyer will destroy your Hulk in less than 4 minutes maybe 3 Minutes Battlecruiser trier 3 will destroy your Hulk in less than 2 minutes 2.GÇ£Logi supportGÇ¥ Gank logi first 1 minute; 3.Gank Hulk second as above 2-4 minutes
Note any carebear that runs missions should realize you canGÇÖt tank this much DPS even if youGÇÖre NOT afk. Other factors Most of the time you canGÇÖt warp off because they fit warp scramblers. CONCORD will NOT get there in time, most of the time. They know where to find you You donGÇÖt know they are coming! previous Ganker characters can sometimes be irrelevant and they create new characters each time, you havenGÇÖt been war decGÇÖd so the likely hood of you seeing them in local is small.
Suggestions DonGÇÖt Mine! Gank them before they Gank you GÇ£unlikelyGÇ¥ Form a PVP defence squad to shield the miner, but you need a few PVPers as the Ganker will bring more friends the larger your squad is. Mine in a battleship, not practical because of the small cargo hold but it is mining, or use orca support or giant containers Mine in missions Mine in gravimetric sites Ninja Mine Mine into a giant container with a disposable mining ship like an Osprey. Mine in a T1 Mining barge with insurance but expect to get Ganked.
Facts These arenGÇÖt new facts, donGÇÖt fool yourself. This is a war that miners cannot win as most characters mine alone in Hi sec, but you might not get seen for a while, thereGÇÖs always a chance. This isnGÇÖt your fault even a Ganker couldnGÇÖt save a Hulk against another Ganker.
More As I have never Ganked or been Ganked, please could Gankers/PVPers post their optimum Kill rate/ stats/DPS and fits to validate claims, I have only used estimates on DPS/time and EHP. All stats that I have used are only ESTIMATES!!!
|

Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
127
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Woah.
Watch out, we're dealing with a badass here! Gallente is what America believes itself to be.
Caldari is how America is in reality. |

ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
66
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Your numbers are terribly inaccurate |

Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
454
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote:Your numbers are terribly inaccurate HUGELY inaccurate...
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |

Rashmika Clavain
Revelation Space
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Not Amused Responsible wrote:
Time to destruction Destroyer will destroy your Hulk in less than 4 minutes maybe 3 Minutes
Seems legit. |

Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
150
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Not Amused Responsible wrote: DPS 4.Destroyer cat 1000+dps or Damage per second! 5.Battlecruiser Talos 5000+dps or Damage per second!
I suspect you meant Damage per Volley, not per second. |

Not Amused Responsible
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:Not Amused Responsible wrote: DPS 4.Destroyer cat 1000+dps or Damage per second! 5.Battlecruiser Talos 5000+dps or Damage per second!
I suspect you meant Damage per Volley, not per second.
Yes your very right thanks |

Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
676
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Can someone tell me how to fit a Catalyst for 1k+ dps plox?
Thats a better ratter than a battleship due to such a small sig, and on par with my carriers DPS output. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |

Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
127
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Can someone tell me how to fit a Catalyst for 1k+ dps plox?
Thats a better ratter than a battleship due to such a small sig, and on par with my carriers DPS output.
One word: Blasters
Gallente is what America believes itself to be.
Caldari is how America is in reality. |

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
53
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
Not Amused Responsible wrote: Suggestions DonGÇÖt Mine!
I love that one |
|

Yolanta Geezenstack
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
Not Amused Responsible wrote:As I have never Ganked or been Ganked, please could Gankers/PVPers post their optimum Kill rate/ stats/DPS and fits to validate claims, I have only used estimates on DPS/time and EHP. All stats that I have used are only ESTIMATES!!!
= I lack knowledge but that doesn't prevent me from posting anyway. 
I just got a mining barge a couple of days ago. My secret plan is: With the never-ending Hulkageddon I must be able to make a fortune with mining!  |

Ishihiro tanaka
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
DPS is completely irrelevant. As soon as a ganker shoots his guns, he'll be jammed, neuted, webbed and scrammed by concord by the time his second round is loaded and ready to be fired.
So, what to do? Simple, get a ship with the highest Alpha (first-strike) you can fit. No tank, no fancy modules, just alpha increasing mods, guns and ammo. A catalyst usually flies with a full rack of guns with only 1 or 2 rounds of ammo loaded, mids usually empty save a sensor booster and lows are all gyrostabilizers and tracking enhancers. Hell, even the rigs, if fitted, will be to improve damage.
Lock, fire your guns, die in a fire and laugh at the expensive tanked exhumer that just died, costing you almost no money.
As long as the Alpha (first-strike) is enough, even logistic backup won't help you. Yes, increasing your EHP and resists will make for the gankers to need to team up to be able to beat said exhumer.
For 0.0 or low-sec without concord, all the above simply doesn't apply as the ganker doesn't get shot by Concord and will come with a completely different s |

Virgil Travis
GWA Corp Unified Church of the Unobligated
246
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
2 minutes? Is it happy hour at the donut stand? If the Sims all became zombies it would be easy to escape them, just shove them in a room and make them answer the telephone. |

Not Amused Responsible
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ishihiro tanaka wrote:DPS is completely irrelevant. As soon as a ganker shoots his guns, he'll be jammed, neuted, webbed and scrammed by concord by the time his second round is loaded and ready to be fired.
So, what to do? Simple, get a ship with the highest Alpha (first-strike) you can fit. No tank, no fancy modules, just alpha increasing mods, guns and ammo. A catalyst usually flies with a full rack of guns with only 1 or 2 rounds of ammo loaded, mids usually empty save a sensor booster and lows are all gyrostabilizers and tracking enhancers. Hell, even the rigs, if fitted, will be to improve damage.
Lock, fire your guns, die in a fire and laugh at the expensive tanked exhumer that just died, costing you almost no money.
As long as the Alpha (first-strike) is enough, even logistic backup won't help you. Yes, increasing your EHP and resists will make for the gankers to need to team up to be able to beat said exhumer.
For 0.0 or low-sec without concord, all the above simply doesn't apply as the ganker doesn't get shot by Concord and will come with a completely different setup.
All too true |

ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 10:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:ModeratedToSilence wrote:Your numbers are terribly inaccurate HUGELY inaccurate...
Yes sorry for that.
|

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7528
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 10:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Virgil Travis wrote:2 minutes? Is it happy hour at the donut stand? Good news, everyone: OP has proven that it is impossible to suicide-gank hulks. Now everyone can go back to whatever they were doing.  GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |

Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 10:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Quote:Time to destruction Destroyer will destroy your Hulk in less than 4 minutes maybe 3 Minutes Battlecruiser trier 3 will destroy your Hulk in less than 2 minutes 2.GÇ£Logi supportGÇ¥ Gank logi first 1 minute; 3.Gank Hulk second as above 2-4 minutes
So suicide ganking IS impossible....who would have known... |

Not Amused Responsible
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 10:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Virgil Travis wrote:2 minutes? Is it happy hour at the donut stand? Good news, everyone: OP has proven that it is impossible to suicide-gank hulks. Now everyone can go back to whatever they were doing. 
Short sighted, i get told by carebears all the time that they can achive this, i hope that this post reaches these carebears. |

Cody Zamorah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 10:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
Not Amused Responsible wrote:Battlecruiser Talos 5000 per volley
Train Tornado then, better alpha.
|

Jamie Dallocort
The Montauks The Paganism Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 10:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
lol Good advice.
A lot of people are still getting away with mining. I know a group (one is a RL friend) who are still using hulks ect because they are well protected and mining tactically - Im not going to mention where or who for obvious reasons...but I am trying to get a few isk off him for keeping it disclosed haha...im an awesome friend aint I? haha
I think they are doing it more in defiance though and try and use the miniing as a lure and excuse to kill Pro goons ect...which so far is working. I'll see if he can send me a screen shot of people raging in local because they keep failing to get the kills lol.
If your desperate to mine, then I agree...have protection. Im not mega skilled in this area so cannot comment much. if you simply hate this anti mining phase, just use them as bait and gank the gankers. |
|

Velicitia
Open Designs
955
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 10:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ishihiro tanaka wrote:DPS is completely irrelevant. As soon as a ganker shoots his guns, he'll be jammed, neuted, webbed and scrammed by concord by the time his second round is loaded and ready to be fired.
So, what to do? Simple, get a ship with the highest Alpha (first-strike) you can fit. No tank, no fancy modules, just alpha increasing mods, guns and ammo. A catalyst usually flies with a full rack of guns with only 1 or 2 rounds of ammo loaded, mids usually empty save a sensor booster and lows are all gyrostabilizers and tracking enhancers. Hell, even the rigs, if fitted, will be to improve damage.
Lock, fire your guns, die in a fire and laugh at the expensive tanked exhumer that just died, costing you almost no money.
As long as the Alpha (first-strike) is enough, even logistic backup won't help you. Yes, increasing your EHP and resists will make for the gankers to need to team up to be able to beat said exhumer.
For 0.0 or low-sec without concord, all the above simply doesn't apply as the ganker doesn't get shot by Concord and will come with a completely different setup.
Pretty sure you meant Magnetic Field Stabilizers ... yeah? |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1677
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 11:05:00 -
[22] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:ModeratedToSilence wrote:Your numbers are terribly inaccurate HUGELY inaccurate...
Literally everything he said is inaccurate, not just the numbers.
[Protip: If you're aligned, you warp instantly; Passive Align is a myth] Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |

Mallak Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx Luna Sanguinem
128
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 11:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
You forgot to add Tornado volley damage. It's around 13k. |

dethleffs
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
42
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 11:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Tor Gungnir wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Can someone tell me how to fit a Catalyst for 1k+ dps plox?
Thats a better ratter than a battleship due to such a small sig, and on par with my carriers DPS output. One word: Blasters
well, 1k+ dps would be 3 words
blasters, wolf-rayet C6
|

Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards Hades.
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 11:20:00 -
[25] - Quote
I think two T1 destroyers would be able to gank a Hulk with their alpha. Hulk Insurance Services: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=115786
Gap coverage designed to help cover the SCC maximum payout and the market price of your Hulk. -áAll policies refundable upon request. |

RAP ACTION HERO
34
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 11:24:00 -
[26] - Quote
wow i wish i had 3minutes in my catalyst with your hulk |

Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
282
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 11:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Not Amused Responsible wrote:
Tank 1.Hulk EHP 20,000+ varies on skills and fits eg ..heavy armour plates and extended cargp holds will slow you down also warping, even if your aligned correctly.
If you're "aligned correctly", you will always instantaneously warp out right when you hit the warp button. Also, Hulks should be shield tanked and if fitted properly, will always have 20k+ ehp regardless of skills (well unless you can't fit a T2 tank).
Not Amused Responsible wrote: Time to destruction Destroyer will destroy your Hulk in less than 4 minutes maybe 3 Minutes Battlecruiser trier 3 will destroy your Hulk in less than 2 minutes 2.GÇ£Logi supportGÇ¥ Gank logi first 1 minute; 3.Gank Hulk second as above 2-4 minutes
Note any carebear that runs missions should realize you canGÇÖt tank this much DPS even if youGÇÖre NOT afk. Other factors Most of the time you canGÇÖt warp off because they fit warp scramblers. CONCORD will NOT get there in time, most of the time.
so, you're sayin it's impossible to gank Hulks now? Note : suicide gank relies on alpha, ideally a single or 2-3 salvos, not dps. It's a whole different thing when you're tanking for missions.
Not Amused Responsible wrote: More As I have never Ganked or been Ganked, please could Gankers/PVPers post their optimum Kill rate/ stats/DPS and fits to validate claims, I have only used estimates on DPS/time and EHP. All stats that I have used are only ESTIMATES!!!
Your "estimates" are totally on the other side of the street. "Eve isnGÇÖt some welcoming online utopia: itGÇÖs cut-throat, cruel, atavistic despite the futuristic setting. Give people a sandbox, and theyGÇÖll throw the sand in a rivalGÇÖs eyes before kicking them in the shins and destroying their sandcastle." -Keza MacDonald, IGN. |

Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
123
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 12:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
Your totally using the wrong metric.
Miners care about ISK/hour, not killboard efficiency. |

Roisin Saoirse
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 12:06:00 -
[29] - Quote
Um... |

Ayame Tao
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 12:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
Not Amused Responsible wrote:I just want to point out some obvious circumstances for you that Gankers know but those miners that think they can still mine in a barge donGÇÖt. 1.Ganker collateral loss est. 1 mill loss at cost for destroyer not including mods - probably 4 mill for a max fitted catalyst.2.Miner collateral loss est. 250 mill at cost for hulk not including mods, loss of ore - probably 300 + mods + ore + pod (because so many people are still AFK or not paying attention )3.Miner collateral loss est. 150mil at cost for tier 3 battleship not including mods, loss of ore DPS
3.Destroyer cat 1000 per volley - max fitted catalyst with great skills and great mods = ~650 dps on average4.Battlecruiser Talos 5000 per volley - Talos average = ~1500 dpsTank1.Hulk EHP 20,000+ varies on skills and fits eg ..heavy armour plates and extended cargp holds will slow you down also warping, even if your aligned correctly. - Fitting a Hulk with tank midslots and maybe a rig or 2 gets nearer to 25,000 - skills make up a lot of this figure. Train fitting and EHP skills up :) Max skills and great mods can put a Hulk beyond any solo ganker ship (excess of 33,000 EHP) but this isn't easily achievable.Time to destructionDestroyer will destroy your Hulk in less than 4 minutes maybe 3 Minutes - CONCORD response time in a 0.5 security system is around 20 seconds, so that's how long they have. Not any minutes at all.Battlecruiser trier 3 will destroy your Hulk in less than 2 minutes 2.GÇ£Logi supportGÇ¥ Gank logi first 1 minute; 3.Gank Hulk second as above 2-4 minutes Note any carebear that runs missions should realize you canGÇÖt tank this much DPS even if youGÇÖre NOT afk. Other factors Most of the time you canGÇÖt warp off because they fit warp scramblers. - which is why you should be passive aligned at all times, and active aligned if you smell a gank on DSCAN for instan warp out.CONCORD will NOT get there in time, most of the time. - tank fitted Hulks can almost always last long enough against solo efforts for CONCORD to show up and violence them to death for you. Multiple pilot Gank squads you aren't going to beat anyway, so it doesn't matter.They know where to find you - make them work for it. Sitting in a belt AFK 2 jumps from Jita is asking for a podding.You donGÇÖt know they are coming! previous Ganker characters can sometimes be irrelevant and they create new characters each time, you havenGÇÖt been war decGÇÖd so the likely hood of you seeing them in local is small. - DSCAN! look out for Catalysts, Taloses, Tornados and SCAN PROBES - set up your overview with a scanning tab showing ships and probes for the DSCAN 'use current overview settings' option and spam that mutha.SuggestionsDonGÇÖt Mine! - in easily predictable places such as where you got ganked before, anywhere AFK, at the warp in point in a belt, where the map shows you there's been lots of ship kills lately etc...Gank them before they Gank you GÇ£unlikelyGÇ¥ - ECM boats can do a very good job of this - by 'ganking' their gank and locking them down helpless till the cops show up.Form a PVP defence squad to shield the miner, but you need a few PVPers as the Ganker will bring more friends the larger your squad is. - might get some pretty entertaining fights out of this. This is a good thing.Mine in a battleship, not practical because of the small cargo hold but it is mining, or use orca support or giant containers - Orcas make very attractive gank targets that get the attention of multiple member roaming gank squads. Be careful with them.Mine in missions - yepMine in gravimetric sites - yepNinja Mine - use AFK miners or suspected botters as a shield / more attractive target.Mine into a giant container with a disposable mining ship like an Osprey. - takes far too long to get anywhere. Use a Covetor, or even a Retriever if you're short on money or skills for proper mining shipsMine in a T1 Mining barge with insurance but expect to get Ganked. - yep. The market manipulation of technetium and Hulk prices means they're not really economically viable for risky mining ops in belts.FactsThese arenGÇÖt new facts, donGÇÖt fool yourself. This is a war that miners cannot win as most characters mine alone in Hi sec, but you might not get seen for a while, thereGÇÖs always a chance. This isnGÇÖt your fault even a Ganker couldnGÇÖt save a Hulk against another Ganker. Failure to assume responsibility for ones own personal safety is a large part of the problem. 'Entitlement' players who fail to grasp that ganking is an integral part of EvE whine the loudest and give the rest of the industrialists a bad name.MoreAs I have never Ganked or been Ganked, please could Gankers/PVPers post their optimum Kill rate/ stats/DPS and fits to validate claims, I have only used estimates on DPS/time and EHP. All stats that I have used are only ESTIMATES!!!
Corrections to ESTIMATES!!! :)
Additionally, it has been shown in many posts that a Hulk can be sufficiently tanked to resist any lone destroyer chancer that comes along (and yes, even a lone Tornado if you have the skills and fit for it) - this forces gankers to bring a bunch of friends or heavier equipment which makes the gank a whole lot more "fair" as they could equally gank pretty mch anything if they're going to bring friends and hardware to the party - which is how it should be.
The best advice reiterated here is to use grav sites and mission pockets. Scan probes show up on DSCAN you know...
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Not Amused Responsible
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 16:03:00 -
[31] - Quote
Ok no disrespect, but there are more kills on hulks than hulks that are saved by Concorde, and a single hulk might just get away some times, but chances are low, and the only time that IGÇÖve personally seen and instant warp is while undocking from a station whilst your moving, not from a stand still. The tank I posted was crap not good enough to with stand an attack and I have made no claims that it could, armour tank would be the worst fit, but some carebears claim to have 30,000 EHP, I canGÇÖt see how this is possible on a well tanked/ resistant tank and only a fool would just fit shield extenders and not hardeners. Some corporations run mining ops, and itGÇÖs not always easy to get your squad out in time, not everyone mines alone, if it was possible then IGÇÖm sure the carebear players would be grateful if you could provide a fleet loot history with amounts minded in Hi-sec GÇ£ screen shot will do with characters names photo shopped out GÇ£ and details of a concorded Ganker during said operation. Ultimately most miners canGÇÖt successfully survive a gank and havenGÇÖt had the experience of null sec and fleet warfare; they are just high sec miners, again I do NOT GANK so the whole Dps thing is irrelevant is fine, but numbers prove Hi sec miners canGÇÖt survive as more are killed than not. For those Miners who want to prove how GOD like their abilities are to survive a Gank, single miner or mining op with two or more miners and evidence that they achieved this please post screenshots with characters names and the corporation that they mine for removed. The mining community would be grateful for your expert wisdom.
|

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1741
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 16:12:00 -
[32] - Quote
Not Amused Responsible wrote:Ok no disrespect, but there are more kills on hulks than hulks that are saved by Concorde, and a single hulk might just get away some times, but chances are low, and the only time that IGÇÖve personally seen and instant warp is while undocking from a station whilst your moving, not from a stand still. The tank I posted was crap not good enough to with stand an attack and I have made no claims that it could, armour tank would be the worst fit, but some carebears claim to have 30,000 EHP, I canGÇÖt see how this is possible on a well tanked/ resistant tank and only a fool would just fit shield extenders and not hardeners. Some corporations run mining ops, and itGÇÖs not always easy to get your squad out in time, not everyone mines alone, if it was possible then IGÇÖm sure the carebear players would be grateful if you could provide a fleet loot history with amounts minded in Hi-sec GÇ£ screen shot will do with characters names photo shopped out GÇ£ and details of a concorded Ganker during said operation. Ultimately most miners canGÇÖt successfully survive a gank and havenGÇÖt had the experience of null sec and fleet warfare; they are just high sec miners, again I do NOT GANK so the whole Dps thing is irrelevant is fine, but numbers prove Hi sec miners canGÇÖt survive as more are killed than not. For those Miners who want to prove how GOD like their abilities are to survive a Gank, single miner or mining op with two or more miners and evidence that they achieved this please post screenshots with characters names and the corporation that they mine for removed. The mining community would be grateful for your expert wisdom.
1) CONCORD is not there to save you. It's there to punish your attackers.
2) 30k EHP is easy on a Hulk [Fit at the bottom]
3) A Hulk can be tanked to survive any economical gank (ganks that have a chance of turning a profit). Just have a Rokh repping it.
4) We have tried to provide wisdom, but as wisdom takes effort to impliment, we have been rebuffed. Angrily and Rudely by the mining community.
[Hulk, Tank Fit] 30k EHP, 33k with Orca Gang links
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Damage Control II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
[Rokh, Healing Bat]
Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Co-Processor II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |

Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
286
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 16:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
This is why we call it griefing.
The mechanics in EVE are not balance designed. All mechanics in EVE favor dps to survivability.
They want us to lose ships. Get it? |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1741
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 16:20:00 -
[34] - Quote
Skydell wrote:This is why we call it griefing.
The mechanics in EVE are not balance designed. All mechanics in EVE favor dps to survivability.
They want us to lose ships. Get it?
Since that's what drives the economy, sound just fine.
Always MOAR DAKKA Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |

Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
286
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 16:27:00 -
[35] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Skydell wrote:This is why we call it griefing.
The mechanics in EVE are not balance designed. All mechanics in EVE favor dps to survivability.
They want us to lose ships. Get it? Since that's what drives the economy, sound just fine. Always MOAR DAKKA
Agreed, if the principal worked but it isn't an efficient model. It's why EVE is 90% ship spinning, blobbing and barge ganking. We don't have the time to throw away our assets in do or die PvP. |

Not Amused Responsible
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:28:00 -
[36] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Not Amused Responsible wrote:Ok no disrespect, but there are more kills on hulks than hulks that are saved by Concorde, and a single hulk might just get away some times, but chances are low, and the only time that IGÇÖve personally seen and instant warp is while undocking from a station whilst your moving, not from a stand still. The tank I posted was crap not good enough to with stand an attack and I have made no claims that it could, armour tank would be the worst fit, but some carebears claim to have 30,000 EHP, I canGÇÖt see how this is possible on a well tanked/ resistant tank and only a fool would just fit shield extenders and not hardeners. Some corporations run mining ops, and itGÇÖs not always easy to get your squad out in time, not everyone mines alone, if it was possible then IGÇÖm sure the carebear players would be grateful if you could provide a fleet loot history with amounts minded in Hi-sec GÇ£ screen shot will do with characters names photo shopped out GÇ£ and details of a concorded Ganker during said operation. Ultimately most miners canGÇÖt successfully survive a gank and havenGÇÖt had the experience of null sec and fleet warfare; they are just high sec miners, again I do NOT GANK so the whole Dps thing is irrelevant is fine, but numbers prove Hi sec miners canGÇÖt survive as more are killed than not. For those Miners who want to prove how GOD like their abilities are to survive a Gank, single miner or mining op with two or more miners and evidence that they achieved this please post screenshots with characters names and the corporation that they mine for removed. The mining community would be grateful for your expert wisdom.
1) CONCORD is not there to save you. It's there to punish your attackers. 2) 30k EHP is easy on a Hulk [Fit at the bottom] 3) A Hulk can be tanked to survive any economical gank (ganks that have a chance of turning a profit). Just have a Rokh repping it. 4) We have tried to provide wisdom, but as wisdom takes effort to impliment, we have been rebuffed. Angrily and Rudely by the mining community. [Hulk, Tank Fit] 30k EHP, 33k with Orca Gang links Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Damage Control II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I [Rokh, Healing Bat] Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Co-Processor II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Thanks for the advise, i truely mean that |

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 19:14:00 -
[37] - Quote
That Rokh can be easily ganked. No tank. |

Kyle Yanowski
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
52
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 20:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:ModeratedToSilence wrote:Your numbers are terribly inaccurate HUGELY inaccurate... Literally everything he said is inaccurate, not just the numbers. [Protip: If you're aligned, you warp instantly; Passive Align is a myth]
You need to accelerate first. Hulks take a while to pick up speed from a halt. And they do need to stop to mine.
|

baltec1
1313
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 20:23:00 -
[39] - Quote
Not Amused Responsible wrote:
Time to destruction Destroyer will destroy your Hulk in less than 4 minutes maybe 3 Minutes Battlecruiser trier 3 will destroy your Hulk in less than 2 minutes 2.GÇ£Logi supportGÇ¥ Gank logi first 1 minute; 3.Gank Hulk second as above 2-4 minutes
CONCORD responce time: 10-15 seconds. |

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 20:27:00 -
[40] - Quote
Btw, am I the first one to find a flaw in that Rokh as 'healer' setup?
Bumping. |
|

Little Brat
Four Gun
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 20:28:00 -
[41] - Quote
x It is the rule in war, if ten times the enemy's strength, surround them; if five times, attack them; if double, be able to divide them; if equal, engage them; if fewer, be able to evade them; if weaker, be able to avoid them. Sun Tzu, 6th Century BC-á |

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
196
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 20:30:00 -
[42] - Quote
Skydell wrote:This is why we call it griefing.
The mechanics in EVE are not balance designed. All mechanics in EVE favor dps to survivability.
They want us to lose ships. Get it? '
you could look at it that way .. or you could look at it as if they want us to gank and grief. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |

Ituhata Saken
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
211
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 20:31:00 -
[43] - Quote
I'd also like to post a warning to carebears, especially the old school carebears: Professor Coldheart is attempting to rid the world of caring. You know what an answer is? It's a terminus -- an end. Answers are fine, but questions are where it's at. Questions bring us closer to understanding, -áthey can start a conversation or spark a revolution. So you might as well start asking... now.-á ~See you on the other side 6/6/12~ |

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
89
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 20:46:00 -
[44] - Quote
Not Amused Responsible wrote:I Suggestions Mine in a T1 Mining barge with insurance but expect to get Ganked.
This would be me, when I fly my mining alt.
Quote:Facts This is a war that miners cannot win... Actually, quite untrue. I have never gone net-negative mining. I've taken short-term setbacks, but it takes very little to replace an insured t1 mining hull, at most a couple hours. Since my rate of being ganked is actually much less than once a month, I'd say I'm 'winning' quite handily. If, indeed, watching rocks melt can be considered 'winning.'

Mostly, I mine when bored and needing materials for an industry job. Ganks are just a part of the cost of doing business, and are factored into the cost.
Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. |

ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 20:47:00 -
[45] - Quote
Not Amused Responsible wrote:Ok no disrespect, but there are more kills on hulks than hulks that are saved by Concorde, and a single hulk might just get away some times, but chances are low, and the only time that IGÇÖve personally seen and instant warp is while undocking from a station whilst your moving, not from a stand still. The tank I posted was crap not good enough to with stand an attack and I have made no claims that it could, armour tank would be the worst fit, but some carebears claim to have 30,000 EHP, I canGÇÖt see how this is possible on a well tanked/ resistant tank and only a fool would just fit shield extenders and not hardeners. Some corporations run mining ops, and itGÇÖs not always easy to get your squad out in time, not everyone mines alone, if it was possible then IGÇÖm sure the carebear players would be grateful if you could provide a fleet loot history with amounts minded in Hi-sec GÇ£ screen shot will do with characters names photo shopped out GÇ£ and details of a concorded Ganker during said operation. Ultimately most miners canGÇÖt successfully survive a gank and havenGÇÖt had the experience of null sec and fleet warfare; they are just high sec miners, again I do NOT GANK so the whole Dps thing is irrelevant is fine, but numbers prove Hi sec miners canGÇÖt survive as more are killed than not. For those Miners who want to prove how GOD like their abilities are to survive a Gank, single miner or mining op with two or more miners and evidence that they achieved this please post screenshots with characters names and the corporation that they mine for removed. The mining community would be grateful for your expert wisdom.
Your post is disgusting. You are using poor sentence structure and terrible layout. Your arguments are illogical and based on inaccurate presumptions.
If the thought processes you are willing to regurgitate onto this forum are typical of high sec miners and those defending them, there is no hope what so ever for the co-existence of high sec causal players and the skilled 0.0/low seccers who use them for target practise. No hope what so ever because you do not know anything about how Eve Online works
1. Concord are not there to save anything. They are there to provide a direct and immediate consequence to the person committing a global crime. 2. 30k EHP is pretty easy for a skilled pilot to achieve. Gang bonuses + implants need to be considered. 3. Correctly aligned ships warp instantaneously (not with standing lag) 4. WTF is minded? 5. A Corp running a mining op needs to have coherent fleet structures that enable fc/wc/sc to insta warp the entire squad. 6. Ultimately most miners don't survive ganks because people like you spread ridiculously idiotic and inaccurate rubbish all over these forums. |

Caecilia Arene
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 21:00:00 -
[46] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
[Hulk, Tank Fit] 30k EHP, 33k with Orca Gang links
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Damage Control II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
[Rokh, Healing Bat]
Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Co-Processor II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Comments like this really show how out of touch some people are from the overall concept of mining. It's really simple... Everything I refer to below is all high-sec.
I'm maxed on most skills needed to do quite a few tasks in EVE. Let's take level IV missions. Single char in a Marauder with a Noctis following. 50M+ ISK per hour maybe more, absolutely risk free. The Noctis gets it all, salvage and all loot. Bring a Tengu along too which just melts frigs and cruisers then take that to about 80-90M ISK per hour, risk free (again also clearing the site of all salvage and loot). Easy and not much thinking.
Now let's take trading - hit and miss but good days can make more than that if you find a good deal. With maxed trading skills you can buy and sell regionally and use courier missions to ferry it around. Station trading and trading on the spread, not bad if you work at it. But, can make billions for those who are very good at it. Little to no risk but hauling stuff in Freighters can push the risk upside somewhat but manageable if your careful. Requires more skill, good planning and some good market sense and intuition.
Now we come to mining. Let's assume top skills (which I have) and I don't bother with billion ISK implants. Two hulks + Orca support. Using proper fit, T2 crystals, maxed mining leadership skills for Orca pilot, mining gang modules. That nets about 50-60M ISK per hour maybe more (give or take - ore prices in high sec move about a bit). Risk, well it's high right now .
Now here is the issue. Take that fit you suggested and it would probably just take two to kill the hulk instead of one. BUT it would sooo gimp the Hulk's earning capacity that you may as well go do something else because just about everything else would be more profitable.
Thus... suggesting a setup like that is analogous to saying, "don't bother mining" - but I guess you didn't think of that . |

ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 21:12:00 -
[47] - Quote
Caecilia Arene wrote:RubyPorto wrote:
[Hulk, Tank Fit] 30k EHP, 33k with Orca Gang links
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Damage Control II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
[Rokh, Healing Bat]
Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Co-Processor II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Comments like this really show how out of touch some people are from the overall concept of mining. It's really simple... Everything I refer to below is all high-sec. I'm maxed on most skills needed to do quite a few tasks in EVE. Let's take level IV missions. Single char in a Marauder with a Noctis following. 50M+ ISK per hour maybe more, absolutely risk free. The Noctis gets it all, salvage and all loot. Bring a Tengu along too which just melts frigs and cruisers then take that to about 80-90M ISK per hour, risk free (again also clearing the site of all salvage and loot). Easy and not much thinking. Now let's take trading - hit and miss but good days can make more than that if you find a good deal. With maxed trading skills you can buy and sell regionally and use courier missions to ferry it around. Station trading and trading on the spread, not bad if you work at it. But, can make billions for those who are very good at it. Little to no risk but hauling stuff in Freighters can push the risk upside somewhat but manageable if your careful. Requires more skill, good planning and some good market sense and intuition. Now we come to mining. Let's assume top skills (which I have) and I don't bother with billion ISK implants. Two hulks + Orca support. Using proper fit, T2 crystals, maxed mining leadership skills for Orca pilot, mining gang modules. That nets about 50-60M ISK per hour maybe more (give or take - ore prices in high sec move about a bit). Risk, well it's high right now  . Now here is the issue. Take that fit you suggested and it would probably just take two to kill the hulk instead of one. BUT it would sooo gimp the Hulk's earning capacity that you may as well go do something else because just about everything else would be more profitable. Thus... suggesting a setup like that is analogous to saying, "don't bother mining" - but I guess you didn't think of that  .
Being able to earn 80-90mil an hour with no risk is example of how much the stealth buffs of high sec over the last 3 years have been over played.
|

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
626
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 21:23:00 -
[48] - Quote
wtb 5000 DPS talos |

Caecilia Arene
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 21:30:00 -
[49] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote:...
Being able to earn 80-90mil an hour with no risk is example of how much the stealth buffs of high sec over the last 3 years have been over played.
I didn't even go into T1 or T2 production, invention, incursions, etc... since I don't do them I've got no idea of the ISK/hour but I'm sure it's rewarding. I did hear incursions could make bucket loads which is probably why they got nerfed.
I actually don't disagree that high-sec has become somewhat of a cash-cow. It's just that picking on the miners is kind of like picking on the weakest carebears of the bunch since I think their earning capacity in ISK/hour is less than most of the other more or less risk free activities in high sec.
Surely the real fight here is the nature of high sec and not high sec miners themselves. Old players like me will just do something else while all this is going on but my ISK/hour is not impacted and it's still risk free.
Getting rid of newer player who, possibly by lack of breadth in their skills, could be pigeonholed in mining which is now unpalatable. They may leave but it still doesn't solve the problem. High sec ... that's where the money is for most people. |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1741
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 21:34:00 -
[50] - Quote
Caecilia Arene wrote:Thus... suggesting a setup like that is analogous to saying, "don't bother mining" - but I guess you didn't think of that  .
I said you can Tank a Hulk such that it is impossibly to make a profit suicide ganking it. In another thread, I listed a full dozen other OPTIONS for how to mine during HAG without dying. Many of them don't involve giving up any yield, but require a little bit more work than mining semi-afk.
Mining, in a game like EvE, is an Option that Players can CHOOSE if its reward is sufficient to match the effort required. Since the reward recently almost doubled, why should it be a problem if the effort required increases a little? This doesn't apply to miners who mine because that is their preferred activity, for those people, the reward shouldn't matter since the activity is their fun. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
|

Large Marg
University of Caille Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 21:37:00 -
[51] - Quote
Not Amused Responsible wrote:I just want to point out some obvious circumstances for you that Gankers know but those miners that think they can still mine in a barge donGÇÖt. 1.Ganker collateral loss est. 1 mill loss at cost for destroyer not including mods 2.Miner collateral loss est. 250 mill at cost for hulk not including mods, loss of ore 3.Miner collateral loss est. 150mil at cost for tier 3 battleship not including mods, loss of ore
DPS
3.Destroyer cat 1000 per volley 4.Battlecruiser Talos 5000 per volley
Tank 1.Hulk EHP 20,000+ varies on skills and fits eg ..heavy armour plates and extended cargp holds will slow you down also warping, even if your aligned correctly.
Time to destruction Destroyer will destroy your Hulk in less than 4 minutes maybe 3 Minutes Battlecruiser trier 3 will destroy your Hulk in less than 2 minutes 2.GÇ£Logi supportGÇ¥ Gank logi first 1 minute; 3.Gank Hulk second as above 2-4 minutes
Note any carebear that runs missions should realize you canGÇÖt tank this much DPS even if youGÇÖre NOT afk. Other factors Most of the time you canGÇÖt warp off because they fit warp scramblers. CONCORD will NOT get there in time, most of the time. They know where to find you You donGÇÖt know they are coming! previous Ganker characters can sometimes be irrelevant and they create new characters each time, you havenGÇÖt been war decGÇÖd so the likely hood of you seeing them in local is small.
Suggestions DonGÇÖt Mine! Gank them before they Gank you GÇ£unlikelyGÇ¥ Form a PVP defence squad to shield the miner, but you need a few PVPers as the Ganker will bring more friends the larger your squad is. Mine in a battleship, not practical because of the small cargo hold but it is mining, or use orca support or giant containers Mine in missions Mine in gravimetric sites Ninja Mine Mine into a giant container with a disposable mining ship like an Osprey. Mine in a T1 Mining barge with insurance but expect to get Ganked.
Facts These arenGÇÖt new facts, donGÇÖt fool yourself. This is a war that miners cannot win as most characters mine alone in Hi sec, but you might not get seen for a while, thereGÇÖs always a chance. This isnGÇÖt your fault even a Ganker couldnGÇÖt save a Hulk against another Ganker.
More As I have never Ganked or been Ganked, please could Gankers/PVPers post their optimum Kill rate/ stats/DPS and fits to validate claims, I have only used estimates on DPS/time and EHP. All stats that I have used are only ESTIMATES!!!
Can I buy pot from you? |

Caecilia Arene
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 21:45:00 -
[52] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Caecilia Arene wrote:Thus... suggesting a setup like that is analogous to saying, "don't bother mining" - but I guess you didn't think of that  . ... Mining, in a game like EvE, is an Option that Players can CHOOSE if its reward is sufficient to match the effort required. Since the reward recently almost doubled, why should it be a problem if the effort required increases a little? This doesn't apply to miners who mine because that is their preferred activity, for those people, the reward shouldn't matter since the activity is their fun. I do get your point. But my point was that high-sec mining with even the uber mining setup still makes less money than other professions in high sec which are far safer. So gimping the setup just doesn't make commercial sense.
I can understand that newer players who may not have a variety of options if they chose to put a lot of their skills into mining, might feel somewhat jaded about all this. Those of us who've been here since 2005 have the skill points (and usually ISK) to have a wider range of revenue generating options if one revenue stream is made unprofitable for whatever reason (either due to a nerf or player action like what we're seeing now).
It's a sandbox and I can live with it but I can understand the angst some are feeling. |

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 21:54:00 -
[53] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:wtb 5000 DPS talos
What is this? I don't even... |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1741
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 22:27:00 -
[54] - Quote
Caecilia Arene wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Caecilia Arene wrote:Thus... suggesting a setup like that is analogous to saying, "don't bother mining" - but I guess you didn't think of that  . ... Mining, in a game like EvE, is an Option that Players can CHOOSE if its reward is sufficient to match the effort required. Since the reward recently almost doubled, why should it be a problem if the effort required increases a little? This doesn't apply to miners who mine because that is their preferred activity, for those people, the reward shouldn't matter since the activity is their fun. I do get your point. But my point was that high-sec mining with even the uber mining setup still makes less money than other professions in high sec which are far safer. So gimping the setup just doesn't make commercial sense. I can understand that newer players who may not have a variety of options if they chose to put a lot of their skills into mining, might feel somewhat jaded about all this. Those of us who've been here since 2005 have the skill points (and usually ISK) to have a wider range of revenue generating options if one revenue stream is made unprofitable for whatever reason (either due to a nerf or player action like what we're seeing now). It's a sandbox and I can live with it but I can understand the angst some are feeling.
Ok, so don't gimp your mining yield and pick a different option to protect yourself. There are very few option that I've suggested (in other threads) that require any additional SP (webs take ~15m to train). All of those suggestions do require a small amount of extra effort and sometimes require changing your habits, for that I have been screamed at by miners who feel entitled to be able to make money while not-playing the game. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
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