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Aalu Aullard	Posted - 2009.08.23 12:16:00 - [1] Just out of curiosity, ive been reading Wikipedia articles about naval ships and warfare. Suprisingly, it seems that real life history is taking place in Eve: Quotes from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleships) Quote: A battleship is a large, heavily armored warship with a main battery consisting of the largest calibre of guns. Battleships were larger, better armed and armored than cruisers or destroyers. There are no battleships in service now Quote: The growing range of naval engagement led to the aircraft carrier replacing the battleship as the leading capital ship during World War II. Battleships were retained by the United States Navy into the Cold War only for fire support purposes. The last battleships were removed from the U.S. Naval Vessel Register in March 2006. I started playing Eve 2007, so im not quite sure about the Eve warfare before that. But time before T2 cruisers and capital ships, the battleships were the core of any fleet? Just like in real life battleships had their golden age during world wars. After the wars, improved technology on destroyers and cruisers made battleships obsolete. And isnt this exactly what is happening in Eve right now? Like the recent stealth bomber boost putting even more pressure on the battleships weakness to the smaller craft? Ive been in empire for the most of my Eve career, so im not that experienced in 0.0 warfare. But it seems to me that battleships live only for long range fire support nowadays, fitted with 1600mm plates and 180km optimal. But isnt sniper HACs becoming more and more popular? And skillwise for a new player, its better to train stealth bomber than long range battleship. Even with the insurance, T2 fit battleship is probably more expensive to lose than steath bomber? Although im not sure how 0.0 alliances run their ship replacement programs. But i guess that bombers and hacs are easier to replace by jumping them from Empire. Battleships are easier to build than T2, but they need tons of minerals. And the minerals is probably used to build dreads and carriers? What is breathing life in this ship class is probably the insurance anymore, and maybe missions? Will the battleship class drop out from the 0.0 warfare?
Mors Magne M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.08.23 12:39:00 - [2] BSs are widely used in 0.0 for support fleets. If the main fleet has 100 capitals, the support fleet will have approximately 100 BSs. Support fleet players are normally training to fly capitals.
Ap0ll0n Gallente Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.08.23 13:12:00 - [3] Well, you can¦t really compare RL battleships to EVE battleships. In RL, battleships were made for long range heavy firesupport and destroying stationary targets, like shore defences and the likes. In EVE, dreads are in that role (killing towers, stations etc.), and it is a bit strange tbh, since in RL, battleships are larger than dreadnoughts. But back on topic. No, battleships are in no way about to get obsolete. For empire wars, maybe, but for 0.0 warfare, they are the core of any invasion fleet, being it in sniper role, or as short range remote repping, nothing can replace a battleship. No other sup capital ship can effectively engage at 180km+ and be able to withstand a doomsday, or tank a heavily defended tower.
Morgan La'Chance Caldari Dynamic Reallocation and Logistics	Posted - 2009.08.23 13:31:00 - [4] Edited by: Morgan La''Chance on 23/08/2009 13:32:53 Originally by: Ap0ll0n and it is a bit strange tbh, since in RL, battleships are larger than dreadnoughts. There is no pre-Dreadnought battleship that is bigger than the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Dreadnought_(1906)]Dreadnought[/url]. Battlecruisers like the Hood were known as super dreadnought battlecruisers; Bismarck, Iowa, Prince of Wales etc as super dreadnought battleships. In RL, a dreadnought is any turret ship that has a uniform main armament of big guns and less of the mixed battery approach of pre-dreadnought battleships, although improvements during the 1920's and 1930's of medium caliber ship artillery such as dual-purpose 5" guns and the like lead to a resurgence of a very large secondary battery, mostly for anti-aircraft purposes. In EVE, battleships are still the main workhorse for fleets, and will remain so because even if sniper dreads can encroach upon the "standard" 150 km sniper range, sniper BS can either refit for super range (200+), or they can still be much more mobile and agile than dreads (no siege mode, gate capable, warps in and out much, much faster) and are much less skill intensive and much less expensive (fitted and rigged sniper BS: 140 mil. Fitted and rigged Dread: 1.8 bil. Add in insurance for each and it's something like 170 mil - 2.2 bil) and a much bigger deterrence to smaller ships at their optimal range. Battleships in EVE are not obsolete by any definition. edit Forum gods help me out, why doesn't the url tag work.
Zeerover DeadSpace Exploration and Investigations	Posted - 2009.08.23 13:33:00 - [5] Originally by: Ap0ll0n Well, you can¦t really compare RL battleships to EVE battleships. In RL, battleships were made for long range heavy firesupport and destroying stationary targets, like shore defences and the likes. In EVE, dreads are in that role (killing towers, stations etc.), and it is a bit strange tbh, since in RL, battleships are larger than dreadnoughts. Not entirely true. Dreadnoughts were a class of battleships launched in 1906 with HMS Dreadnought. This class was so revolutionary for naval warfare that all later battleships were refereed to as dreadnoughts or super-dreadnoughts (such as the US Iowa class). The broader term battleship comes originally from "battle ship of the line" and/or "line of battle ship" (depending on terminology). The 17th to 19th century ships of which HMS Victory is a prime example, but this term is broader and also includes HMS Dreadnought and USS Iowa.
Aalu Aullard	Posted - 2009.08.23 13:34:00 - [6] Originally by: Mors Magne BSs are widely used in 0.0 for support fleets. If the main fleet has 100 capitals, the support fleet will have approximately 100 BSs. Support fleet players are normally training to fly capitals. Exactly. In 2 years, the pilots in the support fleet are capable flying carriers and dreads. In 2 years there will be absolutely crap ton of capital pilots. So if a major fleet has something like 500 capitals? What kind of support fleet they will have? Originally by: Ap0ll0n Well, you can¦t really compare RL battleships to EVE battleships. In RL, battleships were made for long range heavy firesupport and destroying stationary targets, like shore defences and the likes. In EVE, dreads are in that role (killing towers, stations etc.), and it is a bit strange tbh, since in RL, battleships are larger than dreadnoughts. But back on topic. No, battleships are in no way about to get obsolete. For empire wars, maybe, but for 0.0 warfare, they are the core of any invasion fleet, being it in sniper role, or as short range remote repping, nothing can replace a battleship. No other sup capital ship can effectively engage at 180km+ and be able to withstand a doomsday, or tank a heavily defended tower. Im guessing that you see this in short term. But i see battleships as in "Cold War", serving as firesupport. Like i said, in 2 years the support fleet is capable flying capital ships. And battleship capable tanking DD is nothing special, since single DD is pretty much history. More agile and faster ships might be able to warp out before the DDs are fired anyways, while slow and clumsy battleships are easier to bubble.
Sakari Orisi Aliastra	Posted - 2009.08.23 13:39:00 - [7] Originally by: Aalu Aullard Originally by: Mors Magne BSs are widely used in 0.0 for support fleets. If the main fleet has 100 capitals, the support fleet will have approximately 100 BSs. Support fleet players are normally training to fly capitals. Exactly. In 2 years, the pilots in the support fleet are capable flying carriers and dreads. In 2 years there will be absolutely crap ton of capital pilots. So if a major fleet has something like 500 capitals? What kind of support fleet they will have? You're forgetting there are also more and more players starting with eve
Gavin DeVries	Posted - 2009.08.23 14:41:00 - [8] Originally by: Morgan La'Chance Forum gods help me out, why doesn't the url tag work. Because, for some reason in the code used in this BB, the acual URL must me enclosed in quotation marks. Thus (putting spaces in here to prevent it from linking): [ url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Dreadnought_(1906) ]HMS Dreadnought[ /url ] becomes HMS Dreadnought ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Grasse	Posted - 2009.08.23 15:47:00 - [9] Yaaaaa,, a history lesson !! I didnt know there was a difference between Battleships and Dreadnaught's But as for being tons of capital ship pilots in a couple years,, with the ton of new space games coming out, i doubt there will be as many as is thought..
Morgan La'Chance Caldari Dynamic Reallocation and Logistics	Posted - 2009.08.23 17:12:00 - [10] You mean all the twitch-based small ship combat games with "PK Zones" and "Safe Zones"? I doubt that will dip into the alliance level capital ship pilot participation.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.23 18:23:00 - [11] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 23/08/2009 18:24:15 Battleships have the biggest tanks and the most damage of all subcap ships, and (counting insurance), cost a fraction of what a t2 cruiser costs. They can also lock things and move around in a reasonable amount of time, and don't cost hundreds of millions (if not billons) of ISK, like caps.
Footoo Rama Gallente Caldari Illuminati	Posted - 2009.08.23 18:54:00 - [12] you have never flown a domi, the swiss army knife of eve... 2nd most flown ship in eve after strangely a hulk... at least according to ccp ------- "Because the Dominix is the Chuck Norris of Eve!"
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.08.23 19:33:00 - [13] Originally by: Aalu Aullard Originally by: Mors Magne BSs are widely used in 0.0 for support fleets. If the main fleet has 100 capitals, the support fleet will have approximately 100 BSs. Support fleet players are normally training to fly capitals. Exactly. In 2 years, the pilots in the support fleet are capable flying carriers and dreads. In 2 years there will be absolutely crap ton of capital pilots. So if a major fleet has something like 500 capitals? What kind of support fleet they will have? Their support fleet will be built around battleships. A cap fleet with no support craft is dead meat. Battleships are the core of the support fleet.
Aalu Aullard	Posted - 2009.08.23 21:01:00 - [14] Well, heh, im not saying that battleships will completely disappear from the universe never to be seen again. They will have some uses still, like missions. And CCP might add something to the game which boosts the usefulness of these ships. (Speaking of boost, when did the battleships receive some love? Do they need love? Are they fine? Marauders and Black Ops were introduced, yes. But then again ewar frigs were introduce too. Also there was this 249km range limit?) We agree that the development of Eve ships suprisingly follows real life history, right? Smaller ships are getting buffed and are more and more threat to any battleship. 2 years ago there was only handful of titans. Today we know how many titans it takes to DD a carrier. (afaik the carrier didnt have its tank on, but still...) Im just wondering what will the future warfare looks like.
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.23 22:20:00 - [15] There's still a high turnover of players in Eve. Yes some of today's BS pilots will be tomorrows Cap pilots. But some of today's Cap pilots will leave the game and todays Frig/Cruiser pilots are tomorrows BS pilots. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2009.08.23 23:02:00 - [16] Originally by: Ap0ll0n Well, you can¦t really compare RL battleships to EVE battleships. In RL, battleships were made for long range heavy firesupport and destroying stationary targets, like shore defences and the likes. In EVE, dreads are in that role (killing towers, stations etc.), and it is a bit strange tbh, since in RL, battleships are larger than dreadnoughts. Actually, "dreadnought" was a style of battleship that took over as the dominant battleship design around WW1 and remained until after WW2. So in real life, dreadnoughts are battleships and both are considered obsolete now. You're right that you can't make a strong comparison between Eve ships and real historical or modern day naval ships, however.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.23 23:09:00 - [17] Quote: Smaller ships are getting buffed and are more and more threat to any battleship. Not really. Aside from a few new toys, there hasn't been anything that really shifted the balance between small ships and large ships. In fact, the nanonerf was heralded by the forum psychics as the end of small ships and Age of RR BS Gangs. The Ferrogel scandal was a huge boost for BS because t2 ships nearly doubled in price This rig change makes little difference for t2 cruiser pilots (who the **** didn't rig a 140 million HAC?) aside from making them slightly (very slightly) more affordable. The only thing it really did was make frigates and t1 cruisers more of a threat...but BS don't normally have issues competing with them.
bff Jill	Posted - 2009.08.24 02:28:00 - [18] I think capital ships were a bad idea on CCPs part and one of the reasons i dont bother with 0.0. Maybe they could have included a single one, about like a carrier, with a little more space to hold stuff so it could fill more logistical needs. Dreds are only needed because of how they did poses, which i think are also not done right in eve, but given that they exist some sort of siege platform was needed. They could have just made a tech 2 battleship class that could mount some anti-pos weapons and be fairly useless against other ships to fill that need. Thats how i think they should have done it. (or maybe a hi slot module for battleships that lets them join up with other battleships and combine into some sort of super weapon=P) Its fairly silly now how its just so many caps shooting at each other. Not very realistic at all in line with eves story, when whats comparably a fairly standard 0.0 affair is considered to be some sort of massive empire backed doomsday fleet by lore standards. Thankfully w-space is not cap friendly. I think w-space is how 0.0 should have been done from the start.
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.08.24 02:47:00 - [19] Originally by: Aalu Aullard Exactly. In 2 years, the pilots in the support fleet are capable flying carriers and dreads. In 2 years there will be absolutely crap ton of capital pilots. So if a major fleet has something like 500 capitals? What kind of support fleet they will have? 2 years ago, EVE had ~200,000 accounts. ~100,000 accounts have been added since and CCP is doing the best they can to keep the growth going. It will have to stop at some time but it doesn't seem close yet. P.S.: I started 3 years ago and am completely unable to fly capships, much more interesting stuff to train still. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.08.24 03:18:00 - [20] This thread is stupid because the premise is out right wrong. Wherever you went - Here you are.
m0v3rs	Posted - 2009.08.24 03:40:00 - [21] What a surprise. USN 73 from good old roadkill isn't spamming this thread about RL battleships....Or some of those other naval jackals. jk
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.08.24 04:50:00 - [22] woo you have a 500man cap fleet, good luck invading cynojammed systems so yes the battleship will always have a role. sniper hacs are good for hit and run, for pounding on a pos you want a battleship. sniper battleships have almost (or more) then double the range of most sniper hacs, and double to tripple the damage, and more ehp. not to mention after insurance are mostly cheaper. battleships are also the best choice for level 4 mission running and a snipe ship does quite well against targets a few 100km away, have an annoying interceptor on one part of the fleet? have someone on the other side take it out with 1 volley, or at least make it go running. they are going to have to buff hacs like hell to make bs obsolete.
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.08.24 04:51:00 - [23] Originally by: Washell Olivaw Originally by: Aalu Aullard Exactly. In 2 years, the pilots in the support fleet are capable flying carriers and dreads. In 2 years there will be absolutely crap ton of capital pilots. So if a major fleet has something like 500 capitals? What kind of support fleet they will have? 2 years ago, EVE had ~200,000 accounts. ~100,000 accounts have been added since and CCP is doing the best they can to keep the growth going. It will have to stop at some time but it doesn't seem close yet. P.S.: I started 3 years ago and am completely unable to fly capships, much more interesting stuff to train still. agreed, screw caps
Darthewok Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.24 05:33:00 - [24] Out of curiosity: Which fleet wins in a 100 man sov fight? 1. 100 BS 2. 100 Caps 3. 50 BS + 50 Caps Which fleet wins in a 50 man sov fight? 1. 50 BS 2. 50 Caps 3. 25 BS + 25 Caps I don't know the answer, just curious about peoples' view/experience on this.. Basically how much has Cap proliferation changed the need for BS.
Ap0ll0n Gallente Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.08.24 08:18:00 - [25] Originally by: Darthewok Out of curiosity: Which fleet wins in a 100 man sov fight? 1. 100 BS 2. 100 Caps 3. 50 BS + 50 Caps Which fleet wins in a 50 man sov fight? 1. 50 BS 2. 50 Caps 3. 25 BS + 25 Caps I don't know the answer, just curious about peoples' view/experience on this.. Basically how much has Cap proliferation changed the need for BS. You can¦t really put it that way. It all depends on the small details like fittings, FC¦s experience, composition of caps etc.. Without something to tackle the BS, BS¦s would just warp out.
Darthewok Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.24 08:43:00 - [26] well assuming fitting is all optimal T2 fits (T2 guns etc.), FCs of equal skill, and 20 support craft including tacklers, bubblers, scouts etc. etc.
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2009.08.24 08:52:00 - [27] BSs are not the 'endgame' for pilots anymore. This used to be the case a long time ago. Nowadays, in PvP Capitals and SuperCaps are the endgame. In PvE its Marauders and Command Ships - or maybe HACs in some cases. But Battleships are still some of the most used and popular ships, since they combine good tanking and punch - or very long range sniping capabilities - with relatively low starting skill requirements and reasonable pricing.
Xellss	Posted - 2009.08.24 09:54:00 - [28] Battleships always where vunerable to smaller craft, in 1v1 if anything now there slightly safer than before, i cna remember running around in a sac 2006 walking over ravens like they where rats. Battleships are slow, heavy, and very vunerable too faster based kit with a low tracking profile. How ever, any battleship group which supports enough numbers and the correct anti-ewar/anti-frigate support is still perhaps the most effective combat damage dealer available in game. Dealing significantly more damage than any other class to all oppasing ship classes, and boasting enough hitpoints to with stand a total battering for quiet a while, the battleshisp role has perhaps evolved more than died.
fmercury NibbleTek	Posted - 2009.08.24 10:17:00 - [29] No. Battleships still have the most damage, the most range, and the most HP of any subcapital ship. They are still the core of any serious fleet.
Darthewok Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.24 11:01:00 - [30] the question is what happens when large fleets of caps become commonplace in EVE. yes, those who can't fly caps will fly BS, I understand that. the question is will cap pilots still have reason to fly BS or only caps in POS warfare.. does the BS become like the covetor to the hulk(dread/carrier), an intermediate ship, or will it still have a niche role that cap pilots would still fly them sometimes in POS warfare.

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