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Aalu Aullard
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Posted - 2009.08.23 12:16:00 -
[1]
Just out of curiosity, ive been reading Wikipedia articles about naval ships and warfare. Suprisingly, it seems that real life history is taking place in Eve:
Quotes from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleships)
 Quote:
A battleship is a large, heavily armored warship with a main battery consisting of the largest calibre of guns. Battleships were larger, better armed and armored than cruisers or destroyers. There are no battleships in service now
Quote:
The growing range of naval engagement led to the aircraft carrier replacing the battleship as the leading capital ship during World War II. Battleships were retained by the United States Navy into the Cold War only for fire support purposes. The last battleships were removed from the U.S. Naval Vessel Register in March 2006.
I started playing Eve 2007, so im not quite sure about the Eve warfare before that. But time before T2 cruisers and capital ships, the battleships were the core of any fleet? Just like in real life battleships had their golden age during world wars. After the wars, improved technology on destroyers and cruisers made battleships obsolete. And isnt this exactly what is happening in Eve right now? Like the recent stealth bomber boost putting even more pressure on the battleships weakness to the smaller craft?
Ive been in empire for the most of my Eve career, so im not that experienced in 0.0 warfare. But it seems to me that battleships live only for long range fire support nowadays, fitted with 1600mm plates and 180km optimal. But isnt sniper HACs becoming more and more popular? And skillwise for a new player, its better to train stealth bomber than long range battleship. Even with the insurance, T2 fit battleship is probably more expensive to lose than steath bomber?
Although im not sure how 0.0 alliances run their ship replacement programs. But i guess that bombers and hacs are easier to replace by jumping them from Empire. Battleships are easier to build than T2, but they need tons of minerals. And the minerals is probably used to build dreads and carriers?
What is breathing life in this ship class is probably the insurance anymore, and maybe missions? Will the battleship class drop out from the 0.0 warfare?
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Mors Magne
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.08.23 12:39:00 -
[2]
BSs are widely used in 0.0 for support fleets.
If the main fleet has 100 capitals, the support fleet will have approximately 100 BSs.
Support fleet players are normally training to fly capitals.
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Ap0ll0n
Gallente
Lone Star Joint Venture
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.08.23 13:12:00 -
[3]
Well, you canŠt really compare RL battleships to EVE battleships. In RL, battleships were made for long range heavy firesupport and destroying stationary targets, like shore defences and the likes. In EVE, dreads are in that role (killing towers, stations etc.), and it is a bit strange tbh, since in RL, battleships are larger than dreadnoughts.
But back on topic. No, battleships are in no way about to get obsolete. For empire wars, maybe, but for 0.0 warfare, they are the core of any invasion fleet, being it in sniper role, or as short range remote repping, nothing can replace a battleship. No other sup capital ship can effectively engage at 180km+ and be able to withstand a doomsday, or tank a heavily defended tower.
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Morgan La'Chance
Caldari
Dynamic Reallocation and Logistics
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Posted - 2009.08.23 13:31:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Morgan La''Chance on 23/08/2009 13:32:53
Originally by: Ap0ll0n
and it is a bit strange tbh, since in RL, battleships are larger than dreadnoughts.
There is no pre-Dreadnought battleship that is bigger than the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Dreadnought_(1906)]Dreadnought[/url].
Battlecruisers like the Hood were known as super dreadnought battlecruisers; Bismarck, Iowa, Prince of Wales etc as super dreadnought battleships.
In RL, a dreadnought is any turret ship that has a uniform main armament of big guns and less of the mixed battery approach of pre-dreadnought battleships, although improvements during the 1920's and 1930's of medium caliber ship artillery such as dual-purpose 5" guns and the like lead to a resurgence of a very large secondary battery, mostly for anti-aircraft purposes.
In EVE, battleships are still the main workhorse for fleets, and will remain so because even if sniper dreads can encroach upon the "standard" 150 km sniper range, sniper BS can either refit for super range (200+), or they can still be much more mobile and agile than dreads (no siege mode, gate capable, warps in and out much, much faster) and are much less skill intensive and much less expensive (fitted and rigged sniper BS: 140 mil. Fitted and rigged Dread: 1.8 bil. Add in insurance for each and it's something like 170 mil - 2.2 bil) and a much bigger deterrence to smaller ships at their optimal range.
Battleships in EVE are not obsolete by any definition.
*edit*
Forum gods help me out, why doesn't the url tag work.
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Zeerover
DeadSpace Exploration and Investigations
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Posted - 2009.08.23 13:33:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ap0ll0n
Well, you canŠt really compare RL battleships to EVE battleships. In RL, battleships were made for long range heavy firesupport and destroying stationary targets, like shore defences and the likes. In EVE, dreads are in that role (killing towers, stations etc.), and it is a bit strange tbh, since in RL, battleships are larger than dreadnoughts.
Not entirely true. Dreadnoughts were a class of battleships launched in 1906 with HMS Dreadnought. This class was so revolutionary for naval warfare that all later battleships were refereed to as dreadnoughts or super-dreadnoughts (such as the US Iowa class).
The broader term battleship comes originally from "battle ship of the line" and/or "line of battle ship" (depending on terminology). The 17th to 19th century ships of which HMS Victory is a prime example, but this term is broader and also includes HMS Dreadnought and USS Iowa.
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Aalu Aullard
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Posted - 2009.08.23 13:34:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Mors Magne
BSs are widely used in 0.0 for support fleets.
If the main fleet has 100 capitals, the support fleet will have approximately 100 BSs.
Support fleet players are normally training to fly capitals.
Exactly. In 2 years, the pilots in the support fleet are capable flying carriers and dreads. In 2 years there will be absolutely crap ton of capital pilots. So if a major fleet has something like 500 capitals? What kind of support fleet they will have?
Originally by: Ap0ll0n
Well, you canŠt really compare RL battleships to EVE battleships. In RL, battleships were made for long range heavy firesupport and destroying stationary targets, like shore defences and the likes. In EVE, dreads are in that role (killing towers, stations etc.), and it is a bit strange tbh, since in RL, battleships are larger than dreadnoughts.
But back on topic. No, battleships are in no way about to get obsolete. For empire wars, maybe, but for 0.0 warfare, they are the core of any invasion fleet, being it in sniper role, or as short range remote repping, nothing can replace a battleship. No other sup capital ship can effectively engage at 180km+ and be able to withstand a doomsday, or tank a heavily defended tower.
Im guessing that you see this in short term. But i see battleships as in "Cold War", serving as firesupport. Like i said, in 2 years the support fleet is capable flying capital ships.
And battleship capable tanking DD is nothing special, since single DD is pretty much history.
More agile and faster ships might be able to warp out before the DDs are fired anyways, while slow and clumsy battleships are easier to bubble.
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Sakari Orisi
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.08.23 13:39:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Aalu Aullard
Originally by: Mors Magne
BSs are widely used in 0.0 for support fleets.
If the main fleet has 100 capitals, the support fleet will have approximately 100 BSs.
Support fleet players are normally training to fly capitals.
Exactly. In 2 years, the pilots in the support fleet are capable flying carriers and dreads. In 2 years there will be absolutely crap ton of capital pilots. So if a major fleet has something like 500 capitals? What kind of support fleet they will have?
You're forgetting there are also more and more players starting with eve
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Gavin DeVries
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Posted - 2009.08.23 14:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Morgan La'Chance
Forum gods help me out, why doesn't the url tag work.
Because, for some reason in the code used in this BB, the acual URL must me enclosed in quotation marks. Thus (putting spaces in here to prevent it from linking):
[ url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Dreadnought_(1906) ]HMS Dreadnought[ /url ] becomes HMS Dreadnought
______________________________________________________
Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
Grasse
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Posted - 2009.08.23 15:47:00 -
[9]
Yaaaaa,, a history lesson !! I didnt know there was a difference between Battleships and Dreadnaught's
But as for being tons of capital ship pilots in a couple years,, with the ton of new space games coming out, i doubt there will be as many as is thought..
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Morgan La'Chance
Caldari
Dynamic Reallocation and Logistics
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Posted - 2009.08.23 17:12:00 -
[10]
You mean all the twitch-based small ship combat games with "PK Zones" and "Safe Zones"?
I doubt that will dip into the alliance level capital ship pilot participation.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.08.23 18:23:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 23/08/2009 18:24:15
Battleships have the biggest tanks and the most damage of all subcap ships, and (counting insurance), cost a fraction of what a t2 cruiser costs. They can also lock things and move around in a reasonable amount of time, and don't cost hundreds of millions (if not billons) of ISK, like caps.
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Footoo Rama
Gallente
Caldari Illuminati
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Posted - 2009.08.23 18:54:00 -
[12]
you have never flown a domi, the swiss army knife of eve...
2nd most flown ship in eve after strangely a hulk... at least according to ccp
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"Because the Dominix is the Chuck Norris of Eve!" |
Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.08.23 19:33:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Aalu Aullard
Originally by: Mors Magne
BSs are widely used in 0.0 for support fleets.
If the main fleet has 100 capitals, the support fleet will have approximately 100 BSs.
Support fleet players are normally training to fly capitals.
Exactly. In 2 years, the pilots in the support fleet are capable flying carriers and dreads. In 2 years there will be absolutely crap ton of capital pilots. So if a major fleet has something like 500 capitals? What kind of support fleet they will have?
Their support fleet will be built around battleships.
A cap fleet with no support craft is dead meat. Battleships are the core of the support fleet.
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Aalu Aullard
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Posted - 2009.08.23 21:01:00 -
[14]
Well, heh, im not saying that battleships will completely disappear from the universe never to be seen again. They will have some uses still, like missions. And CCP might add something to the game which boosts the usefulness of these ships.
(Speaking of boost, when did the battleships receive some love? Do they need love? Are they fine?
Marauders and Black Ops were introduced, yes. But then again ewar frigs were introduce too. Also there was this 249km range limit?)
We agree that the development of Eve ships suprisingly follows real life history, right? Smaller ships are getting buffed and are more and more threat to any battleship.
2 years ago there was only handful of titans. Today we know how many titans it takes to DD a carrier. (afaik the carrier didnt have its tank on, but still...)
Im just wondering what will the future warfare looks like.
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Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.08.23 22:20:00 -
[15]
There's still a high turnover of players in Eve.
Yes some of today's BS pilots will be tomorrows Cap pilots.
But some of today's Cap pilots will leave the game and todays Frig/Cruiser pilots are tomorrows BS pilots.
Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator |
Kyra Felann
Gallente
Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2009.08.23 23:02:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ap0ll0n
Well, you canŠt really compare RL battleships to EVE battleships. In RL, battleships were made for long range heavy firesupport and destroying stationary targets, like shore defences and the likes. In EVE, dreads are in that role (killing towers, stations etc.), and it is a bit strange tbh, since in RL, battleships are larger than dreadnoughts.
Actually, "dreadnought" was a style of battleship that took over as the dominant battleship design around WW1 and remained until after WW2.
So in real life, dreadnoughts are battleships and both are considered obsolete now.
You're right that you can't make a strong comparison between Eve ships and real historical or modern day naval ships, however.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.08.23 23:09:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Smaller ships are getting buffed and are more and more threat to any battleship.
Not really. Aside from a few new toys, there hasn't been anything that really shifted the balance between small ships and large ships. In fact, the nanonerf was heralded by the forum psychics as the end of small ships and Age of RR BS Gangs. The Ferrogel scandal was a huge boost for BS because t2 ships nearly doubled in price
This rig change makes little difference for t2 cruiser pilots (who the **** didn't rig a 140 million HAC?) aside from making them slightly (very slightly) more affordable.
The only thing it really did was make frigates and t1 cruisers more of a threat...but BS don't normally have issues competing with them.
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bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.08.24 02:28:00 -
[18]
I think capital ships were a bad idea on CCPs part and one of the reasons i dont bother with 0.0. Maybe they could have included a single one, about like a carrier, with a little more space to hold stuff so it could fill more logistical needs. Dreds are only needed because of how they did poses, which i think are also not done right in eve, but given that they exist some sort of siege platform was needed. They could have just made a tech 2 battleship class that could mount some anti-pos weapons and be fairly useless against other ships to fill that need. Thats how i think they should have done it. (or maybe a hi slot module for battleships that lets them join up with other battleships and combine into some sort of super weapon=P) Its fairly silly now how its just so many caps shooting at each other. Not very realistic at all in line with eves story, when whats comparably a fairly standard 0.0 affair is considered to be some sort of massive empire backed doomsday fleet by lore standards.
Thankfully w-space is not cap friendly. I think w-space is how 0.0 should have been done from the start.
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2009.08.24 02:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Aalu Aullard
Exactly. In 2 years, the pilots in the support fleet are capable flying carriers and dreads. In 2 years there will be absolutely crap ton of capital pilots. So if a major fleet has something like 500 capitals? What kind of support fleet they will have?
2 years ago, EVE had ~200,000 accounts. ~100,000 accounts have been added since and CCP is doing the best they can to keep the growth going. It will have to stop at some time but it doesn't seem close yet.
P.S.: I started 3 years ago and am completely unable to fly capships, much more interesting stuff to train still.
Originally by: Signature
Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.08.24 03:18:00 -
[20]
This thread is stupid because the premise is out right wrong.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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m0v3rs
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Posted - 2009.08.24 03:40:00 -
[21]
What a surprise. USN 73 from good old roadkill isn't spamming this thread about RL battleships....Or some of those other naval jackals. jk
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Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.08.24 04:50:00 -
[22]
woo you have a 500man cap fleet, good luck invading cynojammed systems 
so yes the battleship will always have a role. sniper hacs are good for hit and run, for pounding on a pos you want a battleship. sniper battleships have almost (or more) then double the range of most sniper hacs, and double to tripple the damage, and more ehp. not to mention after insurance are mostly cheaper.
battleships are also the best choice for level 4 mission running
and a snipe ship does quite well against targets a few 100km away, have an annoying interceptor on one part of the fleet? have someone on the other side take it out with 1 volley, or at least make it go running.
they are going to have to buff hacs like hell to make bs obsolete.
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Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.08.24 04:51:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Washell Olivaw
Originally by: Aalu Aullard
Exactly. In 2 years, the pilots in the support fleet are capable flying carriers and dreads. In 2 years there will be absolutely crap ton of capital pilots. So if a major fleet has something like 500 capitals? What kind of support fleet they will have?
2 years ago, EVE had ~200,000 accounts. ~100,000 accounts have been added since and CCP is doing the best they can to keep the growth going. It will have to stop at some time but it doesn't seem close yet.
P.S.: I started 3 years ago and am completely unable to fly capships, much more interesting stuff to train still.
agreed, screw caps
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Darthewok
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.08.24 05:33:00 -
[24]
Out of curiosity:
Which fleet wins in a 100 man sov fight?
1. 100 BS
2. 100 Caps
3. 50 BS + 50 Caps
Which fleet wins in a 50 man sov fight?
1. 50 BS
2. 50 Caps
3. 25 BS + 25 Caps
I don't know the answer, just curious about peoples' view/experience on this..
Basically how much has Cap proliferation changed the need for BS.
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Ap0ll0n
Gallente
Lone Star Joint Venture
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.08.24 08:18:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Darthewok
Out of curiosity:
Which fleet wins in a 100 man sov fight?
1. 100 BS
2. 100 Caps
3. 50 BS + 50 Caps
Which fleet wins in a 50 man sov fight?
1. 50 BS
2. 50 Caps
3. 25 BS + 25 Caps
I don't know the answer, just curious about peoples' view/experience on this..
Basically how much has Cap proliferation changed the need for BS.
You canŠt really put it that way. It all depends on the small details like fittings, FCŠs experience, composition of caps etc.. Without something to tackle the BS, BSŠs would just warp out.
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Darthewok
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.08.24 08:43:00 -
[26]
well assuming fitting is all optimal T2 fits (T2 guns etc.), FCs of equal skill, and 20 support craft including tacklers, bubblers, scouts etc. etc.
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2009.08.24 08:52:00 -
[27]
BSs are not the 'endgame' for pilots anymore. This used to be the case a long time ago.
Nowadays, in PvP Capitals and SuperCaps are the endgame.
In PvE its Marauders and Command Ships - or maybe HACs in some cases.
But Battleships are still some of the most used and popular ships, since they combine good tanking and punch - or very long range sniping capabilities - with relatively low starting skill requirements and reasonable pricing.
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Xellss
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Posted - 2009.08.24 09:54:00 -
[28]
Battleships always where vunerable to smaller craft, in 1v1 if anything now there slightly safer than before, i cna remember running around in a sac 2006 walking over ravens like they where rats.
Battleships are slow, heavy, and very vunerable too faster based kit with a low tracking profile. How ever, any battleship group which supports enough numbers and the correct anti-ewar/anti-frigate support is still perhaps the most effective combat damage dealer available in game. Dealing significantly more damage than any other class to all oppasing ship classes, and boasting enough hitpoints to with stand a total battering for quiet a while, the battleshisp role has perhaps evolved more than died.
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fmercury
NibbleTek
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Posted - 2009.08.24 10:17:00 -
[29]
No. Battleships still have the most damage, the most range, and the most HP of any subcapital ship. They are still the core of any serious fleet.
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Darthewok
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.08.24 11:01:00 -
[30]
the question is what happens when large fleets of caps become commonplace in EVE.
yes, those who can't fly caps will fly BS, I understand that.
the question is will cap pilots still have reason to fly BS or only caps in POS warfare.. does the BS become like the covetor to the hulk(dread/carrier), an intermediate ship, or will it still have a niche role that cap pilots would still fly them sometimes in POS warfare.
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Lexa Hellfury
Incura
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Posted - 2009.08.24 11:22:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Darthewok
the question is what happens when large fleets of caps become commonplace in EVE.
Hello 2007.
Originally by: RedSplat
The Forum moderation Software known as Mitnal became self aware. CCP had no choice but to shut it down.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.08.24 11:50:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 24/08/2009 11:53:59
Originally by: Ukucia
Their support fleet will be built around battleships.
A cap fleet with no support craft is dead meat. Battleships are the core of the support fleet.
Not true. Large enough cap fleet (carriers/dreads) is immune to any attack except for larger cap fleet than theirs (or at least consisting of more dreads and at least 5-7 dreads per 10 hostile carriers deployed). You can easily see this already on TQ. Cap fleets of 300 capitals can not be engaged with subcaps because they will just die horribly. Actually subcaps stop being effective when enemy brings around 50 carriers. Even 200 bs will have hard time breaking RR and fending of fighter swarm.
And then we have titans. If they are on "subcaps" side - they wont be used at all (unless someone grows balls and actually doomsdays whole cap fleet, which tbh will be hilarious and sad at same time). If titans are on cap ships side (hell even 1-2 titans) subcaps prolly wont have any chance at all to attack.
Same for mixed fleets. Whats better? 150 dreads + 50 carriers + 200 support or 250 dreads + 150 carriers? Ofc caps because they can both fend off subcap fleet and be virtually immune to hostiles till they bring more caps.
And thats the major flaw in capital warfare. Who brings more wins. There is almost no player skill involved except for right click-cyno and lock-f1 to fire (well tad more for carriers). Also "dreads cant kill battleships" is total bull. They do have tad lower dps out of siege than battleships but they kill them quite fine. And with huge buffer out of siege dreads are as immune to support as are carriers.
Originally by: Soulita
BSs are not the 'endgame' for pilots anymore. This used to be the case a long time ago.
Nowadays, in PvP Capitals and SuperCaps are the endgame.
In PvE its Marauders and Command Ships - or maybe HACs in some cases.
But Battleships are still some of the most used and popular ships, since they combine good tanking and punch - or very long range sniping capabilities - with relatively low starting skill requirements and reasonable pricing.
I would say BS are still used because any 2 month old account can fly one. And even "newb" battleship pilot gets decent DPS (at leats more than cruisers/BCs), better range and much higher EHP. So they are just a meatshield and something for "uneless" pilots to fly so they actually dont feel "useless". So the problme is training time. But as soon as pilot can fly caps in larger fleets he will use cap ship nowadays - its no brainer.
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Medidranda Livoga
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Posted - 2009.08.24 13:26:00 -
[33]
In situation like that youŠd need so many battleships to kill anything [3:1 odds or better] that whole system will break down and become unplayable. So unfortunately there is no reasonable way to have subcaps vs caps battle anymore, especially with all those titans.
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Dungheap
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.08.24 13:28:00 -
[34]
the technology pushing RL battleships toward obsolecsence is longer range, more accurate, harder-hitting missiles.
ask any sea captain if he'd like a weapon system that made his ship slower, or easier to hit, had shorter range than the guns, or that was largely useless against smaller, faster vessels.
wouldn't it be a cruel, twisted joke if such changes were made after the ship had been built and launched..? 
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ArcDragon
Caldari
The Hole Patrol
Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr
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Posted - 2009.08.24 14:59:00 -
[35]
I agree with the OP, T1 battleships have an enourmous amount of compitition. While they are still a staple fleet ship they are, by themselves not good for PvP at all as there are a great number of other ships that can defeat them with built in advantages.
That said, I don't see them going the way of the Do-Do for PvE and we still use them for PvP just never by themselves.
I've had the notion that T1 battleships need some attention for some time now, I just have no idea how that could be done and still maintain overall game balance.
If it has a SAVE button...I'm not interested. |
Hidden Snake
Caldari
More-Cowbell
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Posted - 2009.08.24 15:02:00 -
[36]
Originally by: ArcDragon
I agree with the OP, T1 battleships have an enourmous amount of compitition. While they are still a staple fleet ship they are, by themselves not good for PvP at all as there are a great number of other ships that can defeat them with built in advantages.
That said, I don't see them going the way of the Do-Do for PvE and we still use them for PvP just never by themselves.
I've had the notion that T1 battleships need some attention for some time now, I just have no idea how that could be done and still maintain overall game balance.
generaly it says to ccp ... fix the cruise missiles.
also regarding support fleet -> there is one ship which can suck the cap balls horribly -> blackbird/scorpion family
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.08.24 15:05:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Hidden Snake
Originally by: ArcDragon
I agree with the OP, T1 battleships have an enourmous amount of compitition. While they are still a staple fleet ship they are, by themselves not good for PvP at all as there are a great number of other ships that can defeat them with built in advantages.
That said, I don't see them going the way of the Do-Do for PvE and we still use them for PvP just never by themselves.
I've had the notion that T1 battleships need some attention for some time now, I just have no idea how that could be done and still maintain overall game balance.
generaly it says to ccp ... fix the cruise missiles.
also regarding support fleet -> there is one ship which can suck the cap balls horribly -> blackbird/scorpion family
way to miss the point of the thread
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Seraph Castillon
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.24 15:31:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Not true. Large enough cap fleet (carriers/dreads) is immune to any attack except for larger cap fleet than theirs (or at least consisting of more dreads and at least 5-7 dreads per 10 hostile carriers deployed). You can easily see this already on TQ. Cap fleets of 300 capitals can not be engaged with subcaps because they will just die horribly. Actually subcaps stop being effective when enemy brings around 50 carriers. Even 200 bs will have hard time breaking RR and fending of fighter swarm.
And then we have titans. If they are on "subcaps" side - they wont be used at all (unless someone grows balls and actually doomsdays whole cap fleet, which tbh will be hilarious and sad at same time). If titans are on cap ships side (hell even 1-2 titans) subcaps prolly wont have any chance at all to attack.
Same for mixed fleets. Whats better? 150 dreads + 50 carriers + 200 support or 250 dreads + 150 carriers? Ofc caps because they can both fend off subcap fleet and be virtually immune to hostiles till they bring more caps.
And thats the major flaw in capital warfare. Who brings more wins. There is almost no player skill involved except for right click-cyno and lock-f1 to fire (well tad more for carriers). Also "dreads cant kill battleships" is total bull. They do have tad lower dps out of siege than battleships but they kill them quite fine. And with huge buffer out of siege dreads are as immune to support as are carriers.
This points out a very obvious design flaw. Battleships were designed to form the core of larger fleets. Capitals were introduced to give older players something bigger, badder to use, but at a price. That price being training time and cost.
Once you get training time out of the way, it's never an issue again. The cost, the major limiting factor, is aparantly not doing it's job good enough. Imo this is mostly because of the huge ensurance payouts.
So with the failing of those limitations you now get capital fleets with a battleship entourage instead of battleship fleets with capitals as rennforcement. I can't read minds, but I don't think that's what was intended originally.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.08.24 16:06:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 24/08/2009 16:06:36
Originally by: Seraph Castillon
This points out a very obvious design flaw. Battleships were designed to form the core of larger fleets. Capitals were introduced to give older players something bigger, badder to use, but at a price. That price being training time and cost.
Once you get training time out of the way, it's never an issue again. The cost, the major limiting factor, is aparantly not doing it's job good enough. Imo this is mostly because of the huge ensurance payouts.
Insurance is one issue. Other issue is huge income generated via dyspro/prom moons to the point where holding 1-2 moons means you dont worry about cap losses at all. Third thing is: caps can be used in variety of roles. Fix? Just an example (and it has lots of flaws, like what about supercaps etc): reduce dread tracking to sieged one (even without siege). Force carriers to drop speed to 0 as soon as they deploy fighters/drones/start rr. This way dreads get quite easy nerf - they can only hit caps, caps cant move at all if they want to commit to combat (=less mobility for them). Increase scan resolution on fighters so they dont hit battleships at all.
But like i said - this has lots of holes in it and wasnt thought out, more like an example. But point stands: cap fleets should have achilles heel. Atm they dont have one.
Quote:
So with the failing of those limitations you now get capital fleets with a battleship entourage instead of battleship fleets with capitals as rennforcement. I can't read minds, but I don't think that's what was intended originally.
So called capitals-online. We (players) warned CCP about it when NC started running around with cap blobs (heh blobs... they had like 30-40 caps total at the time). Now we have 200+man cap blobs, guess its about time to tart tweaking it.
EDIT:
also counting till CCP introduces another "larger than dread" class of ships
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Darthewok
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.08.24 16:27:00 -
[40]
make T3 BS cap alternatives wooot
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Soft Love
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Posted - 2009.08.24 19:16:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Aalu Aullard
Just out of curiosity, ive been reading Wikipedia articles about naval ships and warfare. Suprisingly, it seems that real life history is taking place in Eve:
Quotes from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleships)
Quote:
A battleship is a large, heavily armored warship with a main battery consisting of the largest calibre of guns. Battleships were larger, better armed and armored than cruisers or destroyers. There are no battleships in service now
Quote:
The growing range of naval engagement led to the aircraft carrier replacing the battleship as the leading capital ship during World War II. Battleships were retained by the United States Navy into the Cold War only for fire support purposes. The last battleships were removed from the U.S. Naval Vessel Register in March 2006.
stay in empire and stop wondering, everything evolvs game as well, 2003 if fleet had 20 bses it was something today dread is new bs, tommorow we will have t2 titans @ 50 in every fleet
I started playing Eve 2007, so im not quite sure about the Eve warfare before that. But time before T2 cruisers and capital ships, the battleships were the core of any fleet? Just like in real life battleships had their golden age during world wars. After the wars, improved technology on destroyers and cruisers made battleships obsolete. And isnt this exactly what is happening in Eve right now? Like the recent stealth bomber boost putting even more pressure on the battleships weakness to the smaller craft?
Ive been in empire for the most of my Eve career, so im not that experienced in 0.0 warfare. But it seems to me that battleships live only for long range fire support nowadays, fitted with 1600mm plates and 180km optimal. But isnt sniper HACs becoming more and more popular? And skillwise for a new player, its better to train stealth bomber than long range battleship. Even with the insurance, T2 fit battleship is probably more expensive to lose than steath bomber?
Although im not sure how 0.0 alliances run their ship replacement programs. But i guess that bombers and hacs are easier to replace by jumping them from Empire. Battleships are easier to build than T2, but they need tons of minerals. And the minerals is probably used to build dreads and carriers?
What is breathing life in this ship class is probably the insurance anymore, and maybe missions? Will the battleship class drop out from the 0.0 warfare?
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.24 19:23:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 24/08/2009 11:53:59
Originally by: Ukucia
Their support fleet will be built around battleships.
A cap fleet with no support craft is dead meat. Battleships are the core of the support fleet.
Not true. Large enough cap fleet (carriers/dreads) is immune to any attack except for larger cap fleet than theirs (or at least consisting of more dreads and at least 5-7 dreads per 10 hostile carriers deployed). You can easily see this already on TQ. Cap fleets of 300 capitals can not be engaged with subcaps because they will just die horribly. Actually subcaps stop being effective when enemy brings around 50 carriers. Even 200 bs will have hard time breaking RR and fending of fighter swarm.
And then we have titans. If they are on "subcaps" side - they wont be used at all (unless someone grows balls and actually doomsdays whole cap fleet, which tbh will be hilarious and sad at same time). If titans are on cap ships side (hell even 1-2 titans) subcaps prolly wont have any chance at all to attack.
Same for mixed fleets. Whats better? 150 dreads + 50 carriers + 200 support or 250 dreads + 150 carriers? Ofc caps because they can both fend off subcap fleet and be virtually immune to hostiles till they bring more caps.
And thats the major flaw in capital warfare. Who brings more wins. There is almost no player skill involved except for right click-cyno and lock-f1 to fire (well tad more for carriers). Also "dreads cant kill battleships" is total bull. They do have tad lower dps out of siege than battleships but they kill them quite fine. And with huge buffer out of siege dreads are as immune to support as are carriers.
Originally by: Soulita
BSs are not the 'endgame' for pilots anymore. This used to be the case a long time ago.
Nowadays, in PvP Capitals and SuperCaps are the endgame.
In PvE its Marauders and Command Ships - or maybe HACs in some cases.
But Battleships are still some of the most used and popular ships, since they combine good tanking and punch - or very long range sniping capabilities - with relatively low starting skill requirements and reasonable pricing.
I would say BS are still used because any 2 month old account can fly one. And even "newb" battleship pilot gets decent DPS (at leats more than cruisers/BCs), better range and much higher EHP. So they are just a meatshield and something for "uneless" pilots to fly so they actually dont feel "useless". So the problme is training time. But as soon as pilot can fly caps in larger fleets he will use cap ship nowadays - its no brainer.
I'd say this is exactly true. Well thought out response, Deva.
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Zaxix
Red Frog Investments
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Posted - 2009.08.24 19:52:00 -
[43]
What made the RL battleship obsolete was missiles and planes. The range of their guns is way below the range of missiles/planes.
In EVE, you can change the fittings on your battleship, which is not an option in RL. EVE battleships can use missiles and drones (planes, essentially). So, I don't think that BS's are going anywhere, anytime soon. Perhaps the issue has more to do with FCs and how they employ ships. Rather than deal with the mobility limitations of a BS, they have opted for fast moving fleets of smaller ships. |
Lucious McFarsight
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Posted - 2009.08.24 22:28:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Lucious McFarsight on 24/08/2009 22:29:08
There is a good reason for this. Battleships are useless in real life since they are just a big gun platform, they are slow, vulnerable and in need of support. Reason why they arent used now is there is something called a ballistic missile. A weapon that can hit any target around the world and do just as much, if not more damage than a battleship. No wonder they are all retired. U.S replaced em with carriers, while russians with ballistic missile submarines and missile warships of cruiser/battlecruiser size.
In eve, battleships are used for three roles - missions, rats and pvp camps. 0.0 relies mostly on caps so there isnt realy much of a use for battleships since when a corp assembles a BS heavy fleet they become a bull's eye for an enemy hot drop cap fleet. For the most part, Bs's are heavy hitters of corps that cant afford too many caps, like pirate corps in low sec.
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Lexa Hellfury
Incura
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Posted - 2009.08.25 08:39:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Lucious McFarsight
In eve, battleships are used for three roles - missions, rats and pvp camps. 0.0 relies mostly on caps so there isnt realy much of a use for battleships since when a corp assembles a BS heavy fleet they become a bull's eye for an enemy hot drop cap fleet. For the most part, Bs's are heavy hitters of corps that cant afford too many caps, like pirate corps in low sec.
WTS - Clue
Originally by: RedSplat
The Forum moderation Software known as Mitnal became self aware. CCP had no choice but to shut it down.
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