Originally by: Darthewok

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the question is what happens when large fleets of caps become commonplace in EVE.

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Originally by: RedSplat

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The Forum moderation Software known as Mitnal became self aware. CCP had no choice but to shut it down.

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Originally by: Ukucia

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Their support fleet will be built around battleships.

A cap fleet with no support craft is dead meat. Battleships are the core of the support fleet.

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Originally by: Soulita

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BSs are not the 'endgame' for pilots anymore. This used to be the case a long time ago.

Nowadays, in PvP Capitals and SuperCaps are the endgame.
In PvE its Marauders and Command Ships - or maybe HACs in some cases.

But Battleships are still some of the most used and popular ships, since they combine good tanking and punch - or very long range sniping capabilities - with relatively low starting skill requirements and reasonable pricing.

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Originally by: ArcDragon

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I agree with the OP, T1 battleships have an enourmous amount of compitition. While they are still a staple fleet ship they are, by themselves not good for PvP at all as there are a great number of other ships that can defeat them with built in advantages.

That said, I don't see them going the way of the Do-Do for PvE and we still use them for PvP just never by themselves.

I've had the notion that T1 battleships need some attention for some time now, I just have no idea how that could be done and still maintain overall game balance.

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Originally by: Hidden Snake

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Originally by: ArcDragon

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I agree with the OP, T1 battleships have an enourmous amount of compitition. While they are still a staple fleet ship they are, by themselves not good for PvP at all as there are a great number of other ships that can defeat them with built in advantages.

That said, I don't see them going the way of the Do-Do for PvE and we still use them for PvP just never by themselves.

I've had the notion that T1 battleships need some attention for some time now, I just have no idea how that could be done and still maintain overall game balance.

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generaly it says to ccp ... fix the cruise missiles.

also regarding support fleet -> there is one ship which can suck the cap balls horribly -> blackbird/scorpion family

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Not true. Large enough cap fleet (carriers/dreads) is immune to any attack except for larger cap fleet than theirs (or at least consisting of more dreads and at least 5-7 dreads per 10 hostile carriers deployed). You can easily see this already on TQ. Cap fleets of 300 capitals can not be engaged with subcaps because they will just die horribly. Actually subcaps stop being effective when enemy brings around 50 carriers. Even 200 bs will have hard time breaking RR and fending of fighter swarm.

And then we have titans. If they are on "subcaps" side - they wont be used at all (unless someone grows balls and actually doomsdays whole cap fleet, which tbh will be hilarious and sad at same time). If titans are on cap ships side (hell even 1-2 titans) subcaps prolly wont have any chance at all to attack.

Same for mixed fleets. Whats better? 150 dreads + 50 carriers + 200 support or 250 dreads + 150 carriers? Ofc caps because they can both fend off subcap fleet and be virtually immune to hostiles till they bring more caps.

And thats the major flaw in capital warfare. Who brings more wins. There is almost no player skill involved except for right click-cyno and lock-f1 to fire (well tad more for carriers). Also "dreads cant kill battleships" is total bull. They do have tad lower dps out of siege than battleships but they kill them quite fine. And with huge buffer out of siege dreads are as immune to support as are carriers.

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Originally by: Seraph Castillon

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This points out a very obvious design flaw. Battleships were designed to form the core of larger fleets. Capitals were introduced to give older players something bigger, badder to use, but at a price. That price being training time and cost.
Once you get training time out of the way, it's never an issue again. The cost, the major limiting factor, is aparantly not doing it's job good enough. Imo this is mostly because of the huge ensurance payouts.

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Quote:

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So with the failing of those limitations you now get capital fleets with a battleship entourage instead of battleship fleets with capitals as rennforcement. I can't read minds, but I don't think that's what was intended originally.

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Originally by: Aalu Aullard

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Just out of curiosity, ive been reading Wikipedia articles about naval ships and warfare. Suprisingly, it seems that real life history is taking place in Eve:

Quotes from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleships)

Quote:

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A battleship is a large, heavily armored warship with a main battery consisting of the largest calibre of guns. Battleships were larger, better armed and armored than cruisers or destroyers. There are no battleships in service now

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Quote:

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The growing range of naval engagement led to the aircraft carrier replacing the battleship as the leading capital ship during World War II. Battleships were retained by the United States Navy into the Cold War only for fire support purposes. The last battleships were removed from the U.S. Naval Vessel Register in March 2006.

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stay in empire and stop wondering, everything evolvs game as well, 2003 if fleet had 20 bses it was something today dread is new bs, tommorow we will have t2 titans @ 50 in every fleet

I started playing Eve 2007, so im not quite sure about the Eve warfare before that. But time before T2 cruisers and capital ships, the battleships were the core of any fleet? Just like in real life battleships had their golden age during world wars. After the wars, improved technology on destroyers and cruisers made battleships obsolete. And isnt this exactly what is happening in Eve right now? Like the recent stealth bomber boost putting even more pressure on the battleships weakness to the smaller craft?

Ive been in empire for the most of my Eve career, so im not that experienced in 0.0 warfare. But it seems to me that battleships live only for long range fire support nowadays, fitted with 1600mm plates and 180km optimal. But isnt sniper HACs becoming more and more popular? And skillwise for a new player, its better to train stealth bomber than long range battleship. Even with the insurance, T2 fit battleship is probably more expensive to lose than steath bomber?
Although im not sure how 0.0 alliances run their ship replacement programs. But i guess that bombers and hacs are easier to replace by jumping them from Empire. Battleships are easier to build than T2, but they need tons of minerals. And the minerals is probably used to build dreads and carriers?


What is breathing life in this ship class is probably the insurance anymore, and maybe missions? Will the battleship class drop out from the 0.0 warfare?

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 24/08/2009 11:53:59

Originally by: Ukucia

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Their support fleet will be built around battleships.

A cap fleet with no support craft is dead meat. Battleships are the core of the support fleet.

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Not true. Large enough cap fleet (carriers/dreads) is immune to any attack except for larger cap fleet than theirs (or at least consisting of more dreads and at least 5-7 dreads per 10 hostile carriers deployed). You can easily see this already on TQ. Cap fleets of 300 capitals can not be engaged with subcaps because they will just die horribly. Actually subcaps stop being effective when enemy brings around 50 carriers. Even 200 bs will have hard time breaking RR and fending of fighter swarm.

And then we have titans. If they are on "subcaps" side - they wont be used at all (unless someone grows balls and actually doomsdays whole cap fleet, which tbh will be hilarious and sad at same time). If titans are on cap ships side (hell even 1-2 titans) subcaps prolly wont have any chance at all to attack.

Same for mixed fleets. Whats better? 150 dreads + 50 carriers + 200 support or 250 dreads + 150 carriers? Ofc caps because they can both fend off subcap fleet and be virtually immune to hostiles till they bring more caps.

And thats the major flaw in capital warfare. Who brings more wins. There is almost no player skill involved except for right click-cyno and lock-f1 to fire (well tad more for carriers). Also "dreads cant kill battleships" is total bull. They do have tad lower dps out of siege than battleships but they kill them quite fine. And with huge buffer out of siege dreads are as immune to support as are carriers.

Originally by: Soulita

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BSs are not the 'endgame' for pilots anymore. This used to be the case a long time ago.

Nowadays, in PvP Capitals and SuperCaps are the endgame.
In PvE its Marauders and Command Ships - or maybe HACs in some cases.

But Battleships are still some of the most used and popular ships, since they combine good tanking and punch - or very long range sniping capabilities - with relatively low starting skill requirements and reasonable pricing.

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I would say BS are still used because any 2 month old account can fly one. And even "newb" battleship pilot gets decent DPS (at leats more than cruisers/BCs), better range and much higher EHP. So they are just a meatshield and something for "uneless" pilots to fly so they actually dont feel "useless". So the problme is training time. But as soon as pilot can fly caps in larger fleets he will use cap ship nowadays - its no brainer.

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Originally by: Lucious McFarsight

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In eve, battleships are used for three roles - missions, rats and pvp camps. 0.0 relies mostly on caps so there isnt realy much of a use for battleships since when a corp assembles a BS heavy fleet they become a bull's eye for an enemy hot drop cap fleet. For the most part, Bs's are heavy hitters of corps that cant afford too many caps, like pirate corps in low sec.

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Originally by: RedSplat

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The Forum moderation Software known as Mitnal became self aware. CCP had no choice but to shut it down.

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